Mossberg .410 for elderly home defense?


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SDG
March 12, 2012, 12:20 AM
I have an elderly gentleman friend (around 65) that is looking for a home (apt. actually) defense weapon. He is definitely not a gun guy. I doubt that he has ever shot a gun and if he has it was a very long time ago.

He is asking me for advice on what to get and I was originally thinking an SP101 or GP100 loaded with .38 as recoil would not be a great thing for him. But now I am thinking about the Mossberg .410 with a pistol grip. I am thinking that it would have a couple of advantages in this situation.

First, it would be cheaper. Price is not the only thing but it is certainly a factor.

Second, you get the chambering sound with the pump action.

Third, I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the .410 would be more effective while still being short enough.

Fourth, I haven't shot a .410 but I suspect that the recoil would be manageable even for an elderly person.

I see the only drawback as being that you have to pump it to chamber another round as opposed to just pulling the trigger again. Like I said, he is not a gun guy and, although he will shoot it, he will not get much practice. That is why a semi-auto is out of the question.

What do you think?

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pikid89
March 12, 2012, 12:30 AM
Maybe on the .410...i won't get into that
NO on the pistol grip...a full or youth stock is 1000% better in every regard since he won't be breaching doors
And PLEASE don't try to convince him (or yourself) that pumping the shotgun will cause said bad guy to soil himself, turn tail and run....

Given the limited info at hand, I feel like a Steel, double action only .38spc would be the best weapon in this situation...easy to load and unload, easy to SEE that its empty

Perhaps one of the NYPD surplus DAO S&W M-64s that jg sales had..less than 300 bucks

toivo
March 12, 2012, 01:17 AM
NO on the pistol grip...a full or youth stock is 1000% better in every regard since he won't be breaching doors
Agreed. I would look for a field-model 500E. You can get them for a little over $200 if you look for sales. Then add an 18.5" barrel, and you'll end up with something like this ...

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss331/tomi245/DSCF0082.jpg

... plus an extra barrel, for a little over what you would've spent for the pistol-grip-only Cruiser model.

Or look for one of these:

http://www.mossberg.com/images/products/banner/50359.jpg

I don't know how much they cost, but I bet it's more than they should considering that it's just a 500E with an extra doodad on the forearm.

Given the limited info at hand, I feel like a Steel, double action only .38spc would be the best weapon in this situation...easy to load and unload, easy to SEE that its empty

Perhaps one of the NYPD surplus DAO S&W M-64s that jg sales had..less than 300 bucks

And that's a good idea too. I paid $250 for this one:

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss331/tomi245/DSCN0013.jpg

Fred Fuller
March 12, 2012, 02:28 AM
I would definitely not suggest a PGO shotgun, even a .410, for someone who is not a gun person and will not get much if any training/practice in using it. In fact I'm not so sure a pump shotgun in any gauge or configuration is a good idea, for someone who's not in a position to use it enough in live fire to develop a good level of familiarity and confidence.

The "chambering sound" of a pump shotgun is very much oversold as a deterrent IMHO.

For most non-shooters, it seems to me that a long gun is a better idea than a handgun for defense, simply because it is easier to use/hit with a long gun that offers four points of contact. I am a shotgun proponent in most cases, but for people who are not familiar with guns and who won't get much of a chance to get familiar with them, I think a pistol caliber carbine is a better idea.

I also don't see any reason for a semiauto to be "out of the question," because the manual of arms is just as simple with a semiauto as with anything else. Since budget is a major consideration in this case, it seems to me that a HiPoint carbine (offered in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP) should at least be considered. My only experience so far has been with the 9mm version, but that has been uniformly positive with the three I have owned so far.

gp911
March 12, 2012, 10:40 AM
Take him shooting, see what he likes. He may hate shooting handguns or dislike shouldering long guns due to arthritis, old injuries, etc. Definitely no PGO shotguns, even a .410 has enough recoil to disturb a new shooter.

oneounceload
March 12, 2012, 10:55 AM
First off, 65 is NOT elderly, I know many a person that age and older that are in better shape than most 20 year olds - as in running marathons and swimming a lot of laps daily. The point is, why are you assuming he is only capable of using a 410 or 38 revolver?

And I will disagree with most folks here - a revolver takes a LOT of practice to be proficient with and not have the trigger pulling the gun off the mark - in this scenario, being limited to only those two choices, get the 410 and some buckshot. I suspect, however, unless he is infirmed in a very bad way, that a 20 or 12 would be a better alternatives with a lot more choices in ammo to choose from

303tom
March 12, 2012, 11:20 AM
Maybe a judge would be better ?

mooner
March 12, 2012, 11:37 AM
I am looking at a .410 youth for my 70 yr old mother in law as well. She is in decent shape, but I am anticipating her to be quite adverse to recoil. We will do a little testing with a few other firearms before going this route.

I know a 20 gauge would be better, but some of the testing I have seen with the judge .410 rounds look to be actually pretty good. Out of a longer barrel, no doubt they would be even better.

A pump shotgun is much easier for a non-gun person to approach. Agreed about the revolver being tougher to master. Easy to just keep pulling the trigger, tougher to master the long DA pull and hit something.

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 12:13 PM
I swear I'm gonna download a pump racking ringtone. Who needs a shotgun anyway? lol

To OP.. I'd suggest a good K frame with good grips.. 2-4" loaded with standard pressure hard cast lead SWC's.
Bring him out shooting as often as you can and encourage him to dryfire (double action) the snot out of it.

Pfletch83
March 12, 2012, 01:16 PM
I called mine the DFG MK-1

Nice Mark-1 you have there Toivo.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd369/Pfletch83/DSCF0021.jpg

Also if you do buy the 50455 Model for the barrel,you can use said 50455 for spare parts (if something does break)

rcmodel
March 12, 2012, 01:25 PM
65? Elderly?
I resemble that remark!

+1 to No on a pistol grip shotgun.

There are very few weapons made that are easier for a BG to grab and take away from you, then shoot or beat you to death with it.

A stock serves several proposes, not the least of which is being able to lock it against your body and prevent the gun from being twisted out of your hands easily.

But the bottom line is, if the guy has no interest in learning to use a gun, and practicing with it often enough to at least be safe?

He would be better armed and less risk to himself and his neighbors with an Industrial size can of Pepper Spray!

rc

wyohome
March 12, 2012, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE][I have an elderly gentleman friend (around 65) /QUOTE] That made me feel pretty bad. I am near that age.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Deaver/100_0403.jpg

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 01:50 PM
^
True. There are many 85 year (not that you are!) old gentlemen that can outdo a scalded monkey in many empirical/quantifiable measurements.

Don't shortshrift grandma either. You might be surprised and or laughed at.

Age is a relative thing.. I know 30-40 year old milksops that.. nevermind.

oneounceload
March 12, 2012, 02:57 PM
My point in bringing it up is that i shoot with folks that age and older - we routinely shoot 200 rounds at sporting clays in a day, many of those elderly folks hoist a 9# K-80 to do it.
;)

bubba in ca
March 12, 2012, 04:23 PM
Given the same amount of training, I suspect one has at least twice the likelyhood of hitting the perp with a long gun rather than a handgun.

410 buck is far better than most handgun ammo.

If he is not mechanically inclined and not willing to go for significant training, a double barrel or even a single shot might be a better choice.

If at all possible have him try a 20 guage with 2 1/2 inch buck first and try to see if he can handle the complexity of a pump.

Not picking on the guy or his age, but you said he may never have touched a gun before.

bubba in ca
March 12, 2012, 04:28 PM
Oh , yeah--pistol grip only shotguns are for showing off to your friends and throwing away the advantage of the 4 point hold that long guns have. Youth stock, as somebody mentioned above, is very handy in close quarters.

gp911
March 12, 2012, 04:34 PM
Also the regular 5-pellet 3" 000 buck loads can do a lot of damage. I've tested them through all sorts of target media and they tend to penetrate well without spreading much at all. Imagine 5 .36 caliber lead balls hitting at once in about a 3 inch group. Nasty stuff!

Dave McCracken
March 12, 2012, 05:21 PM
410 pump shotguns are adequate defensive tools when employed by Shotgunners.

ALL defensive tools need to be used until proficiency under all conditions is a given.

Take your 65 year old to the range. Let him try out sundry arms and see what he likes best.

A midframe revolver with proper ammo is an excellent choice for many people, but there's no one size fits all answer here.

As for PGOs, they are nigh useless in the real world. With long and ardous practice, some small proficiency can be gained, but the same effort with a real shotgun will reap dividends....

T Slothrop
March 12, 2012, 05:34 PM
...I think a pistol caliber carbine is a better idea...

...Since budget is a major consideration in this case, it seems to me that a HiPoint carbine (offered in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP) should at least be considered. My only experience so far has been with the 9mm version, but that has been uniformly positive with the three I have owned so far.

The esteemed Mr. Fuller's comment needs no amplification from the likes of me. However I have some physical issues that render me extremely sensitive to recoil, and I own both a Mossberg .410 pump and a Hi-Point carbine in .45. In my opinion, the Hi-Point offers a simpler manual of arms and less recoil than the shotgun. I originally bought the .410 specifically with home defense in mind, but now my "go-to" firearm is always the Hi-Point. Plus the Hi-Point can be had new in box for $300 or so.

It's a hard to beat combination of ease of use, light (essentially non-existent) recoil, and value.

Pfletch83
March 12, 2012, 06:11 PM
The carbine is a nice choice for longer range defensive work.

But the .410 is still a shotgun and with '000' buck in either 2-1/2 or 3- inch will be throwing more pellets at the target in the same general target area.

The carbine would be better used at 80-100 yards.

rcmodel
March 12, 2012, 06:16 PM
The OP said the guy lives in an apartment.
For a non-shooter who "is definitely not a gun guy".

I still think pepper spray is the safest thing for him, and his neighbors.

rc

husker
March 12, 2012, 06:29 PM
This http://www.homesecuritystore.com/
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/images/Product/medium/LYNXR2-KT100.jpg

& some of this
http://jpprosecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/num17.jpg

SHR970
March 12, 2012, 06:54 PM
If he isn't going to spend any amount of time to learn how to use a gun half decently he should probably avoid having one. That said, if he is intent on getting one he should try out several platforms to see what he feels comfortable with.

Just my $.05 worth based on him not practicing much:

Taurus Judge...bad idea. Buckshot velocity out of those is under 800 fps, lots of muzzle flash.

Pump shotgun....not such a good idea. He'll probably short stroke it if he needs it.

SxS with dual internal hammers.....close to full proof. Bet he forgets to disengage the automatic safety though.

Pistol caliber semi automatic carbine.....a decent choice. Simple, easy to operate, not much recoil. I'll still bet he forgets to disengage the safety.

6x6pinz
March 12, 2012, 07:07 PM
New user, not much training, no intention of spending time learning to be comfortable pretty much equals a 38spl revolver DAO. just pull the trigger till it goes click. You are not talking distances in an apartment situation where being able to hit a target at 50' is important, more like 15' max.

rcmodel
March 12, 2012, 08:50 PM
SxS with dual hammers.....close to full proof. Bet he forgets to disengage the automatic safety though.Hammer doubles do not have automatic safeties.

Worst that could happen is, he forgets he has to cock them to shoot it.

Or un-cock them if he doesn't shoot it, and blows two holes in the neighbors wall.

rc

243winxb
March 12, 2012, 10:42 PM
He is definitely not a gun guy. A nice baseball bat will do.:D

Certaindeaf
March 13, 2012, 12:09 AM
A nice baseball bat will do.:D
Or a couple chainsaws. lol

dprice3844444
March 13, 2012, 02:09 AM
a nice 20 gauge pump

JShirley
March 13, 2012, 07:02 AM
410 buck is far better than most handgun ammo.


What proof do you have of this? I think a Rossi or H&R .357 rifle would be simpler to use, and more terminally effective, with little recoil.

John

plumberroy
March 13, 2012, 10:36 PM
That federal 410 handgun #000 buck is wicked stuff out of a shotgun all 4 pellets hit a possom at 30-35 yards he was headed west, pellets entered east side and exited the west side (texas heart shot)including one out the forehead. egg stealin' ba$#@rd:fire:
biggest possom I had seen in years
Roy

rodinal220
March 14, 2012, 01:54 AM
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-coach-guns.php

jeepnik
March 14, 2012, 07:04 PM
I've seen what 00 buck from a .410 (my reloads) will do to a coyote. I assure that at normal in home distances, a .410 with 00 or 000 buck will more than suffice.

In addition, the newer Mossberg .410's (like the one shown earlier with the vertical foregrip) have dual action bars. Some folks could bind up the older single action bar ones if they were adrenalin filled (happens in hunting as well as home defense), but twisting as them pulled back on the foreend. I doubt it happened often, but dual bars are better than single any way you look at it.

In addition, since it's a home defense firearm, I'd mount a laser sight on it. Forget any intimidation value, the laser makes it much easier to hit the target. Red dot on torso, pull trigger. Takes longer to type it than do it.

Jaymo
March 14, 2012, 09:10 PM
.410 has more muzzle energy than a .357 mag. Close to a .41 mag.
When fired from a shotgun, not from a Judge. Though, 5 .36 caliber lead balls at 800 fps are far from laughable.

Mark8252
March 14, 2012, 11:26 PM
In the hands of an experience user a 410 shotgun would be great. I do not believe pumping the gun scares anyone and may even warn the bad guy to pull his own gun. I personally believe with no or little practise a point and pull double action revolver is the best. A 32 or 38 is effective with little recoil. Used can be found inexpensive. I strongly suggest anyone new to firearms take a course in firearm safety or at least be shown by an experienced friend..The the 410 Judge Revolver would work too but is more expensive..

Pfletch83
March 15, 2012, 02:15 AM
For those few that doubt the .410 ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ&context=C4600c8aADvjVQa1PpcFO2U3bdRezjvJ0TI-vL6eRsXHbUzWi5D10=

Pfletch83
March 18, 2012, 04:40 AM
The .410 was used at 10 feet.

The cylinder choke of the DFG MK-1 should give even better results with the '000' buck loads.

30.06
March 18, 2012, 05:00 AM
The .410 may be the perfect tool for that fellow .

Recoil is not a problem with a .410 , and it is a lot more quiet than larger rounds as well .

Forget about scaring someone with the sound of the action , your only setting yourself up for a big surprise .

The whole idea is to keep surprises reserved for the bad guy .

Buckshot for the .410 will penetrate just as deep as Buck from a .12 , don't underestimate it .

For inside an apartment , the magazine could be loaded with two or three rounds of Buckshot , followed by #4 shot .

This is assuming a Mossberg pump , as they have the five rd . magazine ( 2.5 inch ) .

This way if #4 shot does not do the trick , buck is readily available , but in all reality would seldom be needed .

I say this because Buckshot will completely penetrate the bad guy , and possibly , still penetrate walls .

Pfletch83
March 18, 2012, 05:24 AM
You have the right idea about the #4 shot just make sure that said #4 ends with the word "Buck" and you should be fine.

(The round in the chamber is Federal 3-inch #4 Buck,the rest are 2-1/2 inch federal '000' copper coated in groups of 4 pellets)

30.06
March 18, 2012, 05:31 AM
No , I was referring to #4 shot , .13 inch .

I was not aware , of any Factory loaded #4 Buckshot in .410 .

By the way , #4 Buckshot will penetrate interior walls .

30.06
March 18, 2012, 05:34 AM
Matter of fact even #4 shot , .13 inch , will penetrate interior walls .

But probably not , the ones , between apartments .

30.06
March 18, 2012, 05:41 AM
Your post prompted me to look into this , #4 buck .

With these rounds , this is all one needs , for inside an apartment .

This would be better , for those , that are "not into guns" .

As they would not get their ammo mixed up .

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/440699/federal-premium-personal-defense-ammunition-410-bore-3-4-buckshot-9-pellets-box-of-20

Apple a Day
March 18, 2012, 10:05 AM
Quote:
410 buck is far better than most handgun ammo.

What proof do you have of this? I think a Rossi or H&R .357 rifle would be simpler to use, and more terminally effective, with little recoil.

John


I've tested .410 shot and slugs versus a few different calibers of handguns against cataloges. I won't claim the tests were overly scientific but they were consistent. The 000 buckshot ran about what I expected against soft 9x19 rounds or hot, heavy .38SPL. The slugs turned 'em into mulch; way beyond anything the handguns did. PDX-1 rounds performed like 00 (the pellets much less).
I'd think a .357 magnum out of a long barrel would have a little more oomph than buckshot or even a 100-grain slug. At cross-the-room distance the shot won't have time to spread much so either way you're going to make a mell of a hess.
A .410 gives you the option of buckshot or slugs which is another +
Sometimes I really wish you could attach a stock to a pistol without having to pay all the extra $ and do all the paperwork.

theicemanmpls
March 18, 2012, 10:33 AM
This http://www.homesecuritystore.com/
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/images/Product/medium/LYNXR2-KT100.jpg

& some of this
http://jpprosecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/num17.jpg
+1 on this.

However a few enhancements.

First layer, exterior lights activated by motion detectors. Scares away the amateurs. A drive way ding dong is good idea.

Second layer enhancement; magnetic contacts on all windows, doors, and or glass breaks shock detectors, another motion detector, and a curtain type detector wired to sound an alert when large mammals are near the exterior perimeter. when people are home, or away, depending. I prefer to use exterior curtain only when the alarm is in the stay mode vs away mode. Utility worker, or passing animal have set mine off.

Two way video intercom. That way the senior person don't have to deactivate the perimeter curtain and give interior home access to strangers.

Third layer; The FOB panic button has its limitations. My wife wanted one. Most folks leave them in the location they keep their house keys. I prefer panic buttons in at least three locations. Make sure the panic, and alarm alert not only trips a siren, but sends two signals to a Central monitor, one via phone, one via radio or cell. Go ahead cut my phone line. A strobe light is an option.
Bad guys hate attention.

Forth layer; (optional) A dog to sound the alarm. I prefer dogs that bark, and don't bite. To much liability there. In addition, the a dog requires maintenance. Can't leave them alone for months, like you can with a monitored alarm. Dogs are a more of a nuisance then a blessing to senior people.

Fifth layer; Pepper spray. I don't know if this is a great idea, as many senior people have respiratory issues. I could include wasp spray, but to avoid an on line pissing contest, I won't.

Sixth layer (SHTF); A firearm. A hammerless double barrel coach gun in 20ga loaded with at least #4's. Tang safety.

NCsmitty
March 18, 2012, 08:24 PM
He is definitely not a gun guy. I doubt that he has ever shot a gun and if he has it was a very long time ago.

That boys and girls is the key to the thread. You are likely not going to be able to teach a complete novice to safely handle any firearm to the point that you could feel confident that the gentleman wouldn't hurt himself or someone else, unless he is an exceptional person.

I wholeheartedly support the use of defensive spray and a security system as have been mentioned. It just makes more sense to avoid a possible bad outcome involving an older novice gun owner.


NCsmitty

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