are patrol carbines and tazers phasing out shotguns in law enforcement?


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beehlebf
March 12, 2012, 01:40 AM
More and more are LEOs have access to patrol carbines such as Ar15s. Tazers are also used in lesser confrontations more and more frequently. Will the use of precision rifles with nonoverpenetrating ammo and tazers phase out shotguns with bean bag rounds or buckshot? I mean theres less of a chance of hurting someone when ising a taser over a beanbag round and rifles will put every shot ther with no piece of buckshot missing at risk of hitting a bystander. Ahotguns will always have their place but are they being knocked off their pedestal

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FIVETWOSEVEN
March 12, 2012, 02:25 AM
I would say yes. Not much a shotgun will do for Police work that a Carbine can't. One advantage of the Carbines is the fact that over penetration in buildings isn't as much as a risk and they can pierce body armor.

usmarine0352_2005
March 12, 2012, 03:06 AM
I would say yes. Not much a shotgun will do for Police work that a Carbine can't. One advantage of the Carbines is the fact that over penetration in buildings isn't as much as a risk and they can pierce body armor.


What? If a shotgun is using buckshot it will have less penetration than a patrol rifle.



My department, which is moderately large still mainly has shotguns and only a few have patrol rifles (which I believe to be a mistake). I think patrol rifles are the better option but it's good to have a mixture of both.
.

R.W.Dale
March 12, 2012, 03:33 AM
Buckshot and handgun bullets tend to penatrate structures more than high velocity rifles firing expanding bullets.

This is because at the velocities a rifle bullet travels at means the bullet has no chance of surviving the sort of disruption it sees striking something substantial. They just disintegrate.

See mythbusters bullets and water for more.

posted via mobile device.

JohnBiltz
March 12, 2012, 03:47 AM
I think a lot of departments are getting worried about seeing armor on bad guys.

maskedman504
March 12, 2012, 04:57 AM
They are still used for breaching...

imsobored
March 12, 2012, 05:33 AM
My old manufacturing company was workin with taser to develop a shotgun taser cartridge. Not sure if it made it past development stage or not

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using tapatalk

usmarine0352_2005
March 12, 2012, 06:14 AM
My old manufacturing company was workin with taser to develop a shotgun taser cartridge. Not sure if it made it past development stage or not


It did. I believe it's called the Xrep. My department is said to be the first to ever use it. It was used twice in different incidents and didn't work. I'm not sure if thick winter jackets prevented it from working though or if it just did not work.

hso
March 12, 2012, 08:50 AM
The Tazer has an entirely different use.

The patrol carbine seems to be an add-on instead of a replacement for the shotgun. Cash strapped departments aren't going to dump a weapon system they already have and don't have to pay for to replace it with one that costs them money, but they are adding carbines as they can because of the perception of the need for them.

Sam1911
March 12, 2012, 09:12 AM
...tazers phase out shotguns with bean bag rounds ...
Any clue on how many departments actually own, train with, issue, or ever deploy bean-bag rounds? I don't think it's very many. Tasers appear on the duty belts of nearly every officer. Beanbag rounds are extremely special-purpose items.

Mr Woody
March 12, 2012, 10:56 AM
My old department added patrol rifles years ago and everyone liked them. The Shotgun ended up being confined to less lethal in the patrol cars about 11 years ago. Personally I think this also made qualification time a bit easier. SRT still had the breaching rounds but patrol got rid of its shot shells.

This seemed to work well for us.

beehlebf
March 12, 2012, 11:45 AM
Do u think patrol rifles are needed or are they more for piece of mind

Loosedhorse
March 12, 2012, 11:55 AM
Yes. In my "little town", the cruisers have M4-config semi-autos (I think and I hope they're not full-auto) between the driver and front passenger seat.

The carbine is a more versatile weapon than the shotgun, with far less recoil. I'd prefer a shotgun if I was doing a dynamic entry (with Gecko right next to me, of course! :p), but for most anything else, carbine.If a shotgun is using buckshot it will have less penetration than a patrol rifle.Depends on the ammo. A 55-gr HP (http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail5050.html?id=130&sID=73&pID=2) does not necessarily penetrate far in gel.

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/223_55_URBAN_4website.jpg

Sam1911
March 12, 2012, 11:59 AM
Do u think patrol rifles are needed or are they more for piece of mind


99 days out of 100, they're just for peace of mind. ('Piece' of mind? Yuck! :barf:)

Then one day there's someone with a REALLY bad idea, or who's tenuous thread of sanity just snapped, and the ability to place a compelling shot at 50+ yards becomes critical.

Whether most officers train well enough to be able to take that shot, I don't know.

But remember, a large part of an officer's toolset is his/her physical presence -- what you might call intimidation factor. A lot fewer lives are lost when a hostile person sees that overwhelming force is present and that continuing a fight can only end badly.

GEM
March 12, 2012, 01:26 PM
The carbine is, in part, for a Black Swan event. If there is an extreme and intensive critical incident, it may be needed.

The characteristics of such, as we see today, are better handled by carbines than shotguns.

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 01:38 PM
Any clue on how many departments actually own, train with, issue, or ever deploy bean-bag rounds? I don't think it's very many. Tasers appear on the duty belts of nearly every officer. Beanbag rounds are extremely special-purpose items.
No, but last summer the Portland PD attempted to use a dedicated beanbagger.. it was painted/annodized a different color (blue I think).. anyway, "they" accidentally buckshot a soul with multiple rounds at close range. He lived.

gym
March 12, 2012, 01:38 PM
The carbine can get more rounds down range faster and further. As far a the wide birth of the shotgun goes, it's limited to under 100 yards, after that, it's not likelly one or two pellets are going to do much.Maybe for CQB or breeching a door they are more useful, but as an all around weapon I would rather have a hundred rounds of 556 on my person.
Especially if you have to make an accurate shot from distance.
I guess both would be best.

Sam1911
March 12, 2012, 01:40 PM
Yikes. I was going to suggest that most less-lethal shotguns are set up like Simunitions guns to only be used with less lethal ammo...but I guess sometimes they aren't. :uhoh:

gym
March 12, 2012, 01:45 PM
Last time i saw a bean bag round other than the "steve mcqueen" movie, "hunter", was in the ATF show "like cops", on TV

coloradokevin
March 12, 2012, 02:52 PM
We use shotguns and rifles in my department. Some officers choose to carry a shotgun, some carry a rifle. A shotgun is a devastatingly effective weapon, but I carry the rifle since I consider it to be more versatile.

A Taser is merely a sometimes-effective less lethal force option, and has no bearing on any reasonable discussion of firearms choices for law enforcement.

lemaymiami
March 12, 2012, 03:12 PM
The writing on the wall about shotguns was pretty clear more than 20 years ago. I was the guy in charge of training on a 100 man department down here in paradise for three years in the late eighties/early nineties era and was sad to see it coming.... In short with more and more officers of "lesser stature" (females for any former marines....) along with greater numbers of ordinary police recruits without the slightest weapons background, shotguns became less and less attractive overall for police managers.... Some of that may have changed with the great numbers of combat veterans for police work... but the trend before 9-11 was clearly away from shotguns.

As a guy who preferred the shotgun over anything else in close quarter confrontations (under fifty meters, even better in less than 25 meters conflicts..) I disagree with the trend but it's just a natural evolution, I'm afraid. Out in open country, away from urban environments the patrol rifle is clearly superior - but that's not where my career was at all. I believe a competent shotgunner actually reduces the actual use of force in confrontations with armed or possibly armed individuals... since that was my experience (and I always brought a shotgun to the party without fail...).

By the way, every time I see one of those "tactical shotguns" I just try not to laugh. A competent 'gunner with a simple Wingmaster Police model without any mag extension or fancy sights is a terrible opponent and usually more than a match for any two offenders...

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 03:18 PM
Welcome to the age of the reduced load. No pun intended, of course.

RetDep310
March 12, 2012, 05:35 PM
I attended my former department's firearms qualification last year for my LEOSA certification. After the qualification, one of the instructors showed the result of a test he conducted on several sheets of wallboard, placed a few inches behind one another. The issued 9mm, 00 Buck and slugs penetrated several layers of the wall board. The 223 only penetrated a couple of layers, it's energy quickly being dumped. They still issue shotguns, along with the AR's, but after that little demonstration, I soon got rid of my personal shotgun, and got an AR. Not saying it's best, but works for me.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 12, 2012, 05:45 PM
Do u think patrol rifles are needed or are they more for peace of mind

After that big shoot out in Hollywood with those bank robbers wearing body armor, Police started issuing Carbines considering how the Police were running to gunshops to get rifles to even the odds.

waterhouse
March 12, 2012, 07:13 PM
Ever car in our fleet has a shotgun in a rack. Every patrol officer has a Tazer on their belt. Our bean bag guns are just a standard 870 with an orange stock and special rounds. I check out a bean bag gun at the beginning of every shift. Myself and many officers also have personal ARs in the car.

Our swat team has used the shotgun Tazer rounds in the past. I believe they are sometimes, but not always, effective, much like the handheld variety.

A lot of people think carbines are overkill or are for mass shooting scenarios. I've had several people say "you are a cop, not in the army!" Almost once a month we have some crazy person shooting a handgun in their house or front yard. These people are literally crazy. A lot of them probably don't mean harm, they just don't know what is going on. Your best bet in that situation is find cover and stay at a distance. A carbine allows you to stay 75 yards away, call in someone to negotiate, and still be ready to end the threat if necessary. If someone can get close while still behind cover, the bean bag rounds can effectively end the threat as well, but we never use it without lethal cover set up in case the rounds are ineffective.

All that said, I can't think of a time when I would reach for a standard shotgun.

Kevin Rohrer
March 12, 2012, 08:38 PM
Shotguns went the way of the Dodo ever since the North Hollywood Bank Shootout. Every department in my area dumped shotguns and now carry ARs and M16s in their cruisers. I carry a confiscated AR15A2 HB. It's a tack driver, but a bit heavy. :cool:

beehlebf
March 12, 2012, 08:57 PM
Do most officers get issued carbines or buy them themaelves. I know our local county sheriff has full auto m4s do they carry them idk.

gunnutery
March 12, 2012, 09:10 PM
I would say yes AND no.

Here in Iowa, rifles are making a huge splash into the law enforcement scene and it's the goal of the firearms instructor at the Iowa Law Enforcement Academy to get a rifle in every squad car in Iowa. I have no idea how close to meeting that goal he is, but it's gaining momentum.

On the other hand, there are still officers that don't give a hoot about a rifle and would much prefer the shotgun.

I see this as a good thing though. As long as you can have force in numbers when addressing a lethal force incident, the different weapons can each bring their strong suits to the fight and their deficencies can be filled by the next guy over with a different weapon system. As long as the individual officers are choosing the weapon that they feel most comfortable and proficient with they stand a good chance of survival. Though we could still do everything "right" and still lose, because law enforcement is reactionary.

dprice3844444
March 12, 2012, 09:16 PM
well it's nice to have a choice for different situations,plus with shotgun/rifle in the car,gives you an extra weapons if you happen to have a 2 man car or a trainee.some usually have a second shotgun with bright colored stock/forend to designate as a bean bag gun.you can always bring both to a situation.

TenRingGuns.com
March 13, 2012, 01:02 AM
Shotguns haven't been used for years, primarily since the North Hollywood shootout; although there is the rare exception now and then.

SWAT1911
March 13, 2012, 01:28 AM
Our towns dept, the cruisers all have both an AR and a shotgun.
Each one has advantages in respective areas. They are tools and one tool is not good for everything. Situation dictating you have either tool at your disposal.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 13, 2012, 01:30 AM
Shotguns haven't been used for years, primarily since the North Hollywood shootout; although there is the rare exception now and then.

They aren't that uncommon. My city's PD has 870s in the cruisers and M14s in the armory.

kd7nqb
March 13, 2012, 02:41 AM
while I don't work in Law Enforcement I do with with law enforcement very closely on a daily basis. Here is what I have seen.

-a big reason some of the cops like the AR's is the intimidtion factor many in the public assume them to be "machine guns"
-Both the rifle and the shotgun have a place
-many departments even the ones who allow officers to use personally owned side arms prohibit personal long guns. I feel that this is a mistake but I understand the reasons. I feel the best equipped crusier would have an AR with 5 30nd mags and a 12 gauge pump. But I also think that the trunk or cargo area should have 3-5 different types of 12 gauge ammo slugs, buckshot, maybe even some #8 shot and some less lethal options. Train the officers on their use and how to tell the difference and now they have a full toolbox of options.

Paris
March 14, 2012, 06:42 PM
What exactly is a "patrol rifle"? Is that like a "patrol shotgun" or a "patrol sidearm"?

I don't understand the need to put monikers on everything.

Mr.454
March 15, 2012, 07:45 PM
I live in a rural area and our local sheriff cruisers have bot a shotgun and an AR. I have to agree with some of the previous posters that shotguns should never disappear from police standard equipment. From a distance sure the 5.56 is nice in a stand off but if talk to combat vets it just doesn't perform that well. If you are going to be an arms length away you dont want to have a rifle that may take 5-10 rounds to put someone down. 00 buck is just some much better up close in my opinion.

goste
March 16, 2012, 01:24 AM
My small Dept. allows the use of both. The Dept. issues Mossberg 500's, and surplus
m14s, or AR15s. We can use the Dept, issue, or supply our own,if we like. Most of the time, I only carry a shotgun, my own Rem. model 11 riot, sometimes also my own Winchester 94 .44mag. Wrangler. but not often,

I see the Tazer more and more, inching out OC spray, and impact Batons.

But, I am seeing more and more Officers, in our Dept, and others in surrounding Dept. foregoing the use of a shotgun. Guess I'm old fashion, If I had to choose one, it would be the shotgun.....

Neverwinter
March 16, 2012, 12:45 PM
From a distance sure the 5.56 is nice in a stand off but if talk to combat vets it just doesn't perform that well. If you are going to be an arms length away you dont want to have a rifle that may take 5-10 rounds to put someone down.
Are there agencies that still issue ball rounds?

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FIVETWOSEVEN
March 16, 2012, 01:08 PM
I live in a rural area and our local sheriff cruisers have bot a shotgun and an AR. I have to agree with some of the previous posters that shotguns should never disappear from police standard equipment. From a distance sure the 5.56 is nice in a stand off but if talk to combat vets it just doesn't perform that well. If you are going to be an arms length away you dont want to have a rifle that may take 5-10 rounds to put someone down. 00 buck is just some much better up close in my opinion.

The only Veterans I've heard say that 5.56 x 45 is inadequate were ones that didn't even see combat. I've heard from actual combat veterans about it being effective out to 300 yards where then it starts lacking which I do believe but a lot of that comes down to the marksmanship of the soldier shooting it.

Are there agencies that still issue ball rounds?

I wouldn't use M855 for LE work personally because of risk of over penetration and would rather use Hornady TAP rounds.

M855 and what it will do in BG tests: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGgojSI62pI&feature=fvwrel

Nushif
March 16, 2012, 01:08 PM
Any clue on how many departments actually own, train with, issue, or ever deploy bean-bag rounds? I don't think it's very many. Tasers appear on the duty belts of nearly every officer. Beanbag rounds are extremely special-purpose items.

The only people I know who regularly do beanbag rounds are actually prison guards. They also use those nasty Hornet's Nest rounds.

If you are going to be an arms length away you dont want to have a rifle that may take 5-10 rounds to put someone down.

Coming from a military background, standing at arms length with a rifle is bad tactics in the first place, I would hardly condemn a spade for not being a crowbar. One of my fondest training memories is giving a guy a bruise on the jaw with the stock of his own gun.

KenW.
March 16, 2012, 01:13 PM
It'll be a cold day in hades when I turn in my Mossberg 500.
And I am issued a Rock River AR and TASER X-26.

Mr.454
March 16, 2012, 07:08 PM
Please don't get butthurt over the 5.56 we have the 6.8 now. As far as combat vets loving the 5.56 you have to be joking do some reasearch or talk to a vet. As far as defending my previous statements we ask police to do too much already. They need all the tools you can give them in their cruisers so shotgun, and carbine. If you have to go into a house a shotgun would be perfect for close quarters. I you have to deal with a poacher out here you will want a carbine. I get ticked off listening to one of my cousins talk about his departments lack of equipment. Officers have to buy most of their own equipment for the SRT team so they can raid meth labs. I would love to see our officers carrying .308s and what ever else they would like. Police and teachers under paid, and under appreciated. Done with my rant carry on.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 17, 2012, 11:30 PM
As far as combat vets loving the 5.56 you have to be joking do some reasearch or talk to a vet.

What makes you think that I haven't? Because I disagree with what you said? I'm not just speaking from propaganda, I know two Navy Corpsmen that saw combat and they don't complain about the round. There's also a reason why Russia first laughed at 5.56 when it first came out, then tried to get it banned under the Geneva convention, then developed their own "weak" round. Navy SEALs can carry .308s as they have SCAR-Hs in their inventories and yet most still elect to carry 5.56 chambered firearms. The ones that do carry .308s are usually doing so to have the added range where 5.56 starts to lack (300 yards plus).

I would love to see our officers carrying .308s and what ever else they would like.

Me too! Who cares about over penetration anyway?

monet61
March 18, 2012, 03:38 PM
Having left LE prior to departments (rural) going to carbines, I have to say that in my career, I saw a lot of situations that ended well BECAUSE of the shotgun. We were allowed to carry rifles in the trunk, but please understand that they weren't carbines in the modern sense. I carried my M1 carbine. Another deputy carried his M1 Garand. I believe that the shotgun is losing ground, but IMHO, a shotgun can be an excellent deterent. I would think it safer, in the OP issue, than a carbine is. Especially in an urban area.YMMV.

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