No Gun Polls in NY / NYC


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nyrifleman
March 12, 2012, 11:05 PM
I'm a New Yorker, though I live upstate where gun laws are relatively sane.

I was recently thinking: Yes, NY is a strongly Democratic state, with an anti-gun culture... but how many peole here are actually pro and how many are actually anti? So I did what I always do in such situations and looked up polls...

THERE AREN'T ANY!

Nobody, whether pro-gun, anti-gun, from New York or from outside New York, has ever tried to ask the question: How do people in NY feel about guns? :barf::barf:

I think this is a problem. Politicians care about votes, but they have no idea how many votes a given position on guns will give them. And maybe it's a blessing, because there are so many anti-gunners in New York that we'd always be a losing minority. But my gut feeling is that there are actually more gun people here than one might think.

</rant>

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Pat M
March 12, 2012, 11:11 PM
I agree with you. I have a lot of friends and co-workers who are gun owners and shoot occasionally, and almost none of them are NRA members or are aware of the anti-gun politics at the state level.

scaatylobo
March 13, 2012, 12:24 PM
I live now in WNYS [ born in NYC for 25 years ] and I agree that the rest of the state,excluding NYC is either pro-gun or dont care about them at all.

It sure would be interesting to see that poll taken.

BUT the powers that be do not want to know what the PEOPLE want or would vote for.

tarakian
March 13, 2012, 12:34 PM
I live in NY also. From what I can tell, other than NYC, the majority of the people in the state are in favor of guns. Unfortunately, the rest of the state has to suffer for NYC. I think an unbiased pollster (if there is such a thing) might even be surprised at the results for NYC, probably much closer to even than one would be lead to believe by the political rhetoric that emanates from there.

freyasman
March 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
I was stationed in upstate NY, (Ft Drum), and I asked several people why they tolerated such ridiculous gun laws; they, for the most part, seemed to think all states were pretty much the same. I pointed out that I didn't think I should have to pay $150, and wait 4-6 months for the state of NY to give me a permit to own my own property!?!? And the prevailing opinion was that I didn't need a handgun anyway. I gave up talking to them, after that.

Midwest
March 13, 2012, 01:06 PM
What I'd like to know is, has there been any challenges to the long standing New York State 'Sullivan Law' (gun control law since 1911) , if so how many? If not, then why not? And are there any new challenges to the 'Sullivan Law' planned in the near future?

303tom
March 13, 2012, 01:32 PM
I don`t know how you all from New York do it................

ZeSpectre
March 13, 2012, 02:42 PM
I'm a New Yorker, though I live upstate where gun laws are relatively sane.
I was born and grew up in upstate NY. Then I moved to Va.
Trust me, nowhere in NY are the gun laws "relatively sane" yet. <sigh>.

MagnumDweeb
March 13, 2012, 03:19 PM
Aunt of mine came down from NYC, Manhattan I think is where she lives, haven't been there since my Great-Grandpa died when i was twelve and don't have any other reason to go (maybe when the gun laws change and I won't be an outlaw no more up there).

We're in Florida, not bad for gun laws, not great either (I'm jealous of Arizona and Vermont). She finds out my mom has two guns, guns I bought her years back. Nothing special, just a Taurus 85 and a Kel-Tec P32. So instead of staying down in Sought Florida for an extra day she comes up to Central Florida one day before she has to leave to go shooting with me and the fiancee. I open my walk-in closet and she sees my two gun safes and almost loses her mind and starts asking me why I need so many guns. I could only laugh at the poor woman. A person may only need one gun, but it's nice being an American and having the choice to own as many as you want (heck I finally sold a couple pistols for the first time out of my private collection, a Star BM and Ruger SBH (I have a SRH).

We took five pistols up to the range with us so she could get herself a taste of variety and she had herself a great time and kept taking pictures. She shot my S&W 15-3 .38 special, my mom's Taurus 85, my Taurus PT99, my Ruger P90(not so much more than fifteen rounds), and Heritage Rough Rider .22lr 6.5". You'd think she gone to heaven or something.

Fun thing was, when she went back to NYC and started showing all her friends the gun pictures and what they wanted to know where she got to shoot them all and couldn't believe she did it in Florida. They asked her if I had a permit (she called me up and asked me if I had a permit for the guns, just plain weird) and why I needed so many. She giggled when she told me about how she told them I had this "huge" arsenal in my closet. Huh. I buy a couple of guns a year if I'm lucky, and few thousand rounds of ammo. I may only buy a few guns this year. Maybe three pistols and a rifle, cause I can and cause I want to, and I don't have kids yet (cause when the kids show up, the college funds will suck up my gun money I'm sure).

Real strange how those NYC folks don't get to do the same. Doesn't make any sense. I know a dozen plus guys like myself, plus a few more greybeards with collections going back to the Civil War along with Tax Stamped goodies.

Kind of says something when a government can't trust, doesn't want to trust its own citizenry.

Carl N. Brown
March 13, 2012, 04:10 PM
All that needs be said about the NY Sullivan Act, and (some) New Yorkers' penchant for imposing their gun control on those who don't want it:
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-25.html
H. L. Mencken, "The Uplifters Try It Again", Baltimore Sun, 30 Nov 1925.

Aunt of mine came down from NYC ... she sees my two gun safes ... starts asking me why I need so many guns.

The New York mindset, conditioned by a 100 years of the unquestionable Sullivan Act, at most will allow a need for maybe one gun strictly as a weapon for very tightly controlled defense of self (or defense of $100,000 or more). Tennessee law recognizes self defense, but also non-weapon ownership of guns for sports and as curios, ornaments or keepsakes--collectors items. The limited number of competitions I enter (.22 Silhouette, black powder rifle, black powder pistol, vintage and modern military rifle and pistol) as well as small game and big game hunting, lead me to want a dozen or more guns. Of course to some like New York madison avenue ad man Carl Bakal I have no right to bear arms, not even the one .38 revolver I keep for home protection, which some other New Yorkers might allow me to have after jumping through multiple hoops (or being in a position to offer a city official back stage passes to an Aerosmith concert).

Why no public opinion polls on guns in NYC? Follow the reader comments in the New York newspaper websites on the recent cases of travelers/tourists with out-of-state permits busted in NYC for handgun possession: I noticed a significant number of NYC residents who did not toe the party line, although there were those who did trot out the usual boilerplate arguments. I would love to see a properly balanced poll on actual NYC residents' honest opinions on guns.

PR-NJ
March 13, 2012, 09:50 PM
I'm a New Yorker, though I live upstate where gun laws are relatively sane.


As my brother (an Upstate resident) says, "Upstate New York is not New York."

pseudonymity
March 13, 2012, 10:56 PM
NYC and upstate are so different in so many ways it is just hard to explain. North of Westchester county could be considered another state in a lot of ways, and gun attitudes are just one of them.

You can travel through Western Vermont, Western Mass, upstate NY and into North PA and things and people look and act pretty similar. Cross over a river into NYC and beyond, things are just not the same.

Sadly, the NYC politics really drives the state process. You get what you pay for. :cuss:

scaatylobo
March 13, 2012, 11:40 PM
That law is only active in NYC and NOT NYS.

I lived in NYC and now reside in NYS for over 40 years.

The difference is as much as one state to another - really.

But I would rather live in a state that allows class III to exist.

Funny that NYC/NYS does not catch on to how much it loses in taxes due to the stupid laws.

crracer_712
March 14, 2012, 12:54 PM
I thought NY and NYC was all pro gun, all the episodes of law and order I watch always have guns involved...

MilsurpShooter
March 14, 2012, 05:46 PM
If you could take Albany and NYC and makes them New York, while the rest of us live in New Amsterdam I'd be happy. However the population of NYC outweighs the rest of the state. Hate it :(

Old Shooter
March 14, 2012, 09:23 PM
I was born and grew up in upstate NY. Then I moved to Va.
Trust me, nowhere in NY are the gun
laws "relatively sane" yet. <sigh>.
__________________

+1 or more

I moved from new york to Texas in 1982 and then Virginia in 1993 and it was nice to NOT be treated like a criminal when purchasing a handgun or a rifle for that matter. Walk in, fill out the paperwork and in 5 minutes walk out with the handgun. Might be an issue for New York but none of my handguns has shot anyone yet...50+ years of gun ownership. Good bye New York :)

Sniper66
March 14, 2012, 11:13 PM
Much of the country and especially NY are fed a steady diet of anti-gun "news". Non-gun people always ask the question that immediately betrays their ignorance, "Why do you need so many guns?" When have you ever been asked, why do you want so many guns or why do you like having so many guns? And is usually asked with a grimace. My answer, if it's a woman is...., Why do you need so many pairs of shoes or more than one necklace or more than one TV in your house?
That idiot question about "need" is judgmental and assumes there is only one reason to own a gun. The other question expresses curiosity and interest. I will not tolerate idiot questions without a commensurate response, whether the person is from NY or elsewhere. My wife and many friends are from NY and ALL of them are curious about my guns.

Pat M
March 15, 2012, 07:45 PM
Just to give you guys another idea of how bad it is here, Nassau County, just east of Queens, is currently scheduling license interviews for February 2013 if you drop your application off today. License is "usually" received six months after that. So if you apply for your pistol license today you might get it in August of 2013. Suffolk county is currently 6 months or slightly less.

AEA
March 15, 2012, 07:55 PM
Been all over the World, practically everywhere.......
NEVER been to NY State and NEVER plan to go. They have NOTHING there I want or need.

sirsloop
March 16, 2012, 01:58 AM
I grew up in Watkins Glen (finger lakes) and i'm (obviously) very pro-gun. A lot of my friends still in NY own, and ccw. Upstate is a different culture than NYC and the surrounding areas. Its more like PA, very rural, hunter friendly, gun friendly, etc. Seeing people walk up and down the street with a shotgun or bow during deer season is normal.

Now that i've moved to NJ...LOL... now i've got my hands full with the dems! :x

exavid
March 16, 2012, 02:09 AM
Unfortunately most states with a large Metroplex tend to become less gun tolerant over time. The three big cities in CA are what drive the anti-gun action there, ditto for Oregon with it's Portland - Salem -Eugene axis. Washington state is beginning to tend that way due to the mass of population in the Puget Sound area. I don't know exactly why this is so, maybe because city people tend to be less trusting of their neighbors and people in general. For some reason logic doesn't seem to work on them either, they mostly seem to think if there's a law against guns there won't be any.

svtruth
March 16, 2012, 01:37 PM
Years ago (like>50) I remember going to Coney Island. There was all sorts of carnival stuff including shooting galleries using tube magazine loaded .22s firing shorts. It was fun.

Hocka Louis
March 17, 2012, 01:18 AM
There WAS a gun poll in NYC, a major one. Anti-gun zealot Rudy Giuliani (that's right -- and one of the reason he did so poorly as a national candidate), the NYC Mayor who buttonholed then Pres. Bush I in a helicopter and wasted the 15 minutes asking him to ban civilian ownership of firearms nationally, tried to ban them in NYC and held a referendum which lost by something like a 3:1 margin.

He actually publicly apologized for pushing it and for being so wrong about what the people felt.

JWF III
March 17, 2012, 06:52 AM
I don`t know WHY you all from New York do it................


Fixed it for you;)

There are at least 40 free states to choose from. Some more free than the others, but at least they know what the Constitution is. And what it means

Wyman

scaatylobo
March 17, 2012, 10:21 AM
I grew up in Watkins Glen (finger lakes) and i'm (obviously) very pro-gun. A lot of my friends still in NY own, and ccw. Upstate is a different culture than NYC and the surrounding areas. Its more like PA, very rural, hunter friendly, gun friendly, etc. Seeing people walk up and down the street with a shotgun or bow during deer season is normal.

Now that i've moved to NJ...LOL... now i've got my hands full with the dems! :x

If your capable of reading comprehension,please read the above and understand that we are NOT - repeat NOT NYC when in the REST of the state.

We hunt and fish and EDC a gun with a permit that allows CCW for LIFE or until revoked for cause [ domestic violence,or conviction of crime ].

I am not saying its as free as other states as we cannot get any supressors or class III,but its sure as heck beats Mass. or NYC, or any state that dont allow CCW.

Hocka Louis
March 17, 2012, 12:11 PM
That is not the case statewide, i.e. the counties closest to NYC. Try getting a carry permit in Westchester or Nassau for example. Cancers spread.

230RN
March 17, 2012, 12:55 PM
I was born and raised in NYC (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens) and grew up in the anti-gun culture. I remember my Scoutmaster revealing that he had been in the Signal Corps in the Battle of the Bulge in an informal meeting at his house. He hesitantly revealed that he had a Polish Radom and we insisted on seeing it.

He swore us to absolute secrecy and brought it out (he didn't have any ammo for it) and we all handled it, feeling like criminals every minute. I don't think anyone from a free state can imagine the anti-gun mindset of New Yorkers. Seeing a gun was like seeing a snake or a spider, unless, of course, it was on a policeman's belt or on TV.

I moved out here (CO) when I was 22 and was amazed to find handguns sitting there under glass counters in department stores and was actually confused as to why a "regular store" would be selling guns for the police right out in the open like that.

I was stunned when I found out that no permit or paperwork or anything was required (pre-GCA68) and that any resident of Colorado could buy one.

The day after I got my Colorado driver's license, I walked into the same store and bought a gun. Showed my DL, paid my money, and walked out with it. I still expected to be "grilled" by the clerk as to why I needed it, what I was going to do with it, etc, but it was like selling a hammer or power saw to him --no big deal.

I still felt like a criminal for quite a while after that and remember closing the curtains whenever I handled it for fear that someone could look in the windows and call the cops on me.

Really!

Finally met a real gunnie from Colorado and he and I got together to shoot at the city dump (which is now the Boulder CO Rifle and Pistol Club range) and I got to shoot some of his guns as well, and some of that built-in-guilt started to slowly dissipate. I still remember asking him a couple of times if what we were doing was legal, and he'd laugh and say it was OK.

I still have that first gun (an RG-22 cheapie in .22 Short) and fired it recently (hey, shoots good, does what it's supposed to), but every time I pick it up I am reminded of that built-in-guilt I had so many years ago.

Went back once to NYC for my mother's funeral, but I see no reason whatsoever to ever go back to that brainwashed city again.

So now I have an "arsenal"(eek!) and a "cache of ammo" (eek! eek!) and "tools for making 'bullets'" (eeeeeek!) and an eeeevil laser sight (eek! ahk!) on the gun I carry (eek! eek!) every day and I have nothing but pity and pathos for the poor brainwashed folks under Mayor Bloomberg's thumb.

As for how many of them aren't brainwashed? I'd like to find out, but any poll questions written by New Yorkers would be loaded with subconscious anti-gun bias anyhow, which even they themselves would not be able to see. For one thing, it would be almost impossible for any NY pollster to divorce the idea of a "need" for a gun from any poll questions, and this notion would be inherent in any of their questions.

It's that ingrained in them.

Terry, 230RN

ETA (couldn't fit it smoothly into the above):

"Mr. Leno, why do you need so many motorcycles?"

"And you, Mr. Seinfeld, why do you need so many cars that you bought your own parking lot to store them in?"

Ridiculous questions, eh?

scaatylobo
March 17, 2012, 03:40 PM
Sorry but this NYC born and now residing in NYS'er dont agree with your outlook.

I feel that since I live,hunt and shoot in this state I am a bit more of an authority on the gun situation here,than say you.

I go to DOZENS of gun shows here and shoot at a few ranges and I see LOTS of folk enjoying the freedom we do have.

I am not saying its all great,but the doom and gloom you state are from the perspective of one from outside.

Go to a Rochester Dome or Syracuse Arena gun show and fight the HUGE THRONG of collectors and shooters there.

Those shows alone host at least ten THOUSAND in 2 days.

I would love to see a poll of NYS shooters and hold that against the NYC people.

Then we might get a real movement to make 2 separate states as we have been asking for decades.

toivo
March 17, 2012, 04:04 PM
New York State resident -- not born here, but I've lived here since I was eight years old. As others have said, NYS is not NYC. The biggest problems for upstaters, to my mind, are (a) the "may issue" status of pistol permits and (b) the "permit to purchase" requirement for each handgun. For (a), the county judges have WAY too much leeway: an anti-gun judge can singlehandedly make life difficult for every handgun owner in the county. I've seen it happen. There should be statewide "shall issue" guidelines that all judges have to follow. For (b), it's really back-door registration, and I don't trust it. I'd like to see any permit holder be allowed to buy and sell freely.

Thinks I like about NYS pistol permits:

Good for life -- no renewal necessary.
No extra restrictions on where you can carry, like sporting events, restaurants that serve liquor, etc. Some "free" states have these.
Minimal training requirement for permit: one six-hour safety class -- at least in my county. YMMV.


Long guns in upstate NY are treated pretty much the same as they are anywhere else in the country: NICS check and you're out the door.

hermannr
March 17, 2012, 06:51 PM
New York State resident -- not born here, but I've lived here since I was eight years old. As others have said, NYS is not NYC. The biggest problems for upstaters, to my mind, are (a) the "may issue" status of pistol permits and (b) the "permit to purchase" requirement for each handgun. For (a), the county judges have WAY too much leeway: an anti-gun judge can singlehandedly make life difficult for every handgun owner in the county. I've seen it happen. There should be statewide "shall issue" guidelines that all judges have to follow. For (b), it's really back-door registration, and I don't trust it. I'd like to see any permit holder be allowed to buy and sell freely.

Thinks I like about NYS pistol permits:

Good for life -- no renewal necessary.
No extra restrictions on where you can carry, like sporting events, restaurants that serve liquor, etc. Some "free" states have these.
Minimal training requirement for permit: one six-hour safety class -- at least in my county. YMMV.


Long guns in upstate NY are treated pretty much the same as they are anywhere else in the country: NICS check and you're out the door.
toivo: In some ways upstate NY does not have it too bad, once you have you license...that is only campaired to NYC though.

BUT: You have to have a "permit" to purchase, you have to have a "permit" to carry, (then that depends on some judges discression). Even though there is no law against Open Carry, if you are not a cop, the general concensus I hear seems to be that you WILL be hasseled if you Open Carry, Not ALL of your public lands are open to carry at any time for purposes of SD...and you must be a state resident with a permit even to "possess"...also the NY state constitution does not even guarantee that little bit as a "Right"

No thanks...I can purchase and carry in any public place, (as a non-resident you can too, within federal exceptions) including the state capitol...no nanny permit required..yes, this includes OC into a restaurant that serves, and I can have a beer with my meal...NO LICENSE REQUIRED. That is guaranteed by our state constitution. Our state constitution makes no bones about the INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to bear arms. Yes, we do have a concealed license system, but OC is open to anyone that can legally possess (federal law)

230RN
March 18, 2012, 01:50 AM
You will note I never mentioned NYS, only the City, and my perspective is from that standpoint.

But that touches on a general problem observed by others and that is that too often the large metropolitan areas of states tend to have too much influence on the rest of the state. You hear that kind of reaction from Californians regarding Sacramento and L.A., Illinoisans regarding Chicago, and so forth. No documentation is needed here, all you need is to browse the gun boards in that respect.

I do not know for sure of the history of how the Sullivan Act of New York City influenced the State Laws coming out of Albany, but I'll put my ten against your five that the NYC laws preceded the NYS laws. And I'll make the same odds that the same situation pertains with respect to CA-Sacramento/L.A. and Illinois-Chicago, etc.

This problem is endemic in United States politics, where if you live in a high-density area, your vote counts much more than the farmer who liked to shoot tin cans off his back porch in the other parts of the state. The same thing is happening (and has happened) here in Colorado, with the Boulder-Denver power base affecting the rest of the state.

But that's another topic area, politics. It just happened to blend in to this topic. However, I close with two of the most-cited covers of the New Yorker Magazine...

http://www.graphicsoptimization.com/blog/wp-includes/images/go_examples/2007_11/NewYorker1976-03-29cover.png

http://papermestore.webs.com/02161935.jpg

Arrogant. That's the only word that applies, and all you have to do is switch the magazine titles to "The Chicagoan" and "The Los Angelean."

Seems to me that all we have to do is get that farmer off his back porch and down to the polls every freakin' November, Presidential election or not.

<sorta-kinda rant off>

Terry, 230RN

ETA: Just to calm myself down and end up grinning after the above, I reviewed this video. Ya gotta love the Gunny:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TriggerTheVote?ob=0

Ah, my Blood Pressure's down again. <takes deep breath>

Carl N. Brown
March 18, 2012, 02:43 AM
New York City and its anti-gun culture stirs up resentment because New Yorkers have been trying to shove their Sullivan Act down the throat of the rest of us for decades.
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-25.html
H. L. Mencken, "The Uplifters Try It Again", Baltimore Sun, 30 Nov 1925.

If your public library has back issues of standard publications and the Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature, go under "Firearms Legislation" and review the history of gun control crusades. The most irritating are the paternalistic New Yorkers like Madison Avenue advertising executive Carl Bakal who promoted "No Right to Bear Arms" in the 1960s push toward what became the 1968 Gun Control Act. Today we have Schumer and Bloomberg.

Don't bother to point out that unlike New York State, your state constitution has a RKBA that guarantees the citizens of your state have the right to keep and bear arms. New Yorker anti-gunners don't care, because their way is the best, and they want to use use the federal gevernment to steamroll a national Sullivan Act over the rest of us, the BoR 2A or state RKBA be darned.

Carl N. Brown
March 18, 2012, 02:49 AM
The Sullivan Act is a New York State law that was passed primarily for the "benefit" of New York City. Actually passed by state representative Timothy Sullivan who primarily represented Tammany Hall.

whalerman
March 18, 2012, 02:59 AM
NY State is the most dysfunctional state in the nation. I know, as I've lived in many other areas of the country. We are the most corrupt, the most most inbred, and the most dominated by biased media. We also enjoy a school system heavily overfinanced and extremely powerful. This has left a society very accustomed to accepting unreasonable and counterproductive laws about most everything. We citizens exist for the good of the state. If you keep that in mind, it explains much of what makes NY what it is. The rights of the individual have nothing to do with the interests of the State. And our citizens and youth who believe otherwise, have already left. The others are state employees. We are not a very independent minded group.

230RN
March 18, 2012, 03:05 AM
OK, how do I get my your ten bucks to you?

Carl N. Brown
March 18, 2012, 03:15 AM
:) Spend it on a loved one and say the treats on me.

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