AOW shotgun


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rockn30809
March 13, 2012, 06:25 PM
I keep seeing more and more short barreled shotguns classified as AOW. How are folks doing it? I have few old shotguns I would love to shorten the barrel on for $5.00 a pop.

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Orkan
March 13, 2012, 06:36 PM
There is an important distinction between short barreled shotguns and AOW's. Specific shotguns are considered AOW. Building a SBS requires a $200 stamp. Transferring a AOW only requires a $5 stamp. Big difference.

CoRoMo
March 13, 2012, 06:55 PM
I have few old shotguns I would love to shorten the barrel on for $5.00 a pop.
Impossible. They most likely started their existence as a defined 'shotgun'. Therefore, they'll never become an AOW.

Had you purchased a 'virgin receiver' from Mossberg, Remington, etc, you could finish that receiver into an AOW firearm, but it would still cost you $200 in tax stamp because you are manufacturing.

The $5 tax only applies to the transfer of an AOW. If you were to purchase a suppressor, it's a $200 tax stamp; if you purchase a Serbu Shorty, it's a $5 stamp.

Chopdoktor
March 13, 2012, 06:56 PM
$5 transfer is nice for AOW, but don't forget the 6+ month wait... They have paperwork just like all the other items that are wrongfully over-regulated by NFA bull-excrement. My shop is going to start manufacturing them in April, and I think a lot of people will be facing a massive wait because of the election year and all. It's a shame.

rockn30809
March 13, 2012, 08:07 PM
What im asking is how a mossberg 590 with a shorter than 16" barrel would be classified as a AOW?

MasterSergeantA
March 13, 2012, 08:10 PM
If it comes from the factory without a stock...a pistol grip only, as the Mossberg Cruiser's did, they can be made into AOWs. You don't actually have to have just the receiver. Remington was not selling them that way for a long time, but I think they figured out they were missing market share. With the advent of their MCS system, I think the policy changed as Mark Serbu is now offering his Super Shorty in both brands. As was pointed out, manufacturing an AOW from a PGO shotgun will still run $200; it is only the transfer fee that is $%. I bought a nice 12" 870 and discovered that slinging it on a mount under the barrel of an AR is NOT considered affixing a stock to it. It is still an AOW.

SlowFuse
March 13, 2012, 08:13 PM
I've heard of something about shotguns produced from the factory with only a pistol grip being able to qualify as an aow if cut below the 18" mark. This may be a grey area or just plain myth. Maybe someone else can chime in on that.

SlowFuse
March 13, 2012, 08:14 PM
Ha master sergeant hit it!

crawfobj
March 13, 2012, 09:22 PM
I want to see Master Sergeant's 12ga under his AR!!! :what:

Hunter125
March 13, 2012, 09:27 PM
So then if you put a stock on a Serbu Shorty you would be crossing into SBS territory?

rockn30809
March 13, 2012, 09:44 PM
Thats what I was looking for master sergeant, thanks.

Sam1911
March 13, 2012, 10:42 PM
So then if you put a stock on a Serbu Shorty you would be crossing into SBS territory?

Absolutely. You're turning it into something "Designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder." Gotta send them another $200 and wait for another stamp to do that.

MasterSergeantA
March 14, 2012, 04:50 PM
Sam nailed it. Additionally, once you have "manufactured" the SBS by adding a stock, it will never again be an AOW and will transfer at the higher tax rate ($200 vs. $5). AOWs seem to be popular because (1) the transfer tax is lower making it more attractive to the buyer and (2) some states that do not allow SBS will allow AOWs. But in some states the opposite is true.

I paid $500 for my 870 AOW and a tax stamp at $5. I bought a used 870 from my friend's LGS for $200; for another $200 I can make it a SBS and use the same pistol grip as the AOW...plus I can always put the stock back on it. But transferring the AOW would probably be quicker if I wanted to part with it because I could get my money out of it more easily with a buyer who 'only' had to pay $5 to the Fed (and wait 6 months or more.) And you don't have to ask ATF permission to carry your AOW into another state (where permitted by state law) as you do with SBRs, SBSs, and automatic weapons.

I am lucky enough to live in Arizona where the Second Amendment is my concealed carry permit.

huntsman
April 16, 2012, 05:23 PM
$5 transfer is nice for AOW, but don't forget the 6+ month wait... They have paperwork just like all the other items that are wrongfully over-regulated by NFA bull-excrement. My shop is going to start manufacturing them in April, and I think a lot of people will be facing a massive wait because of the election year and all. It's a shame.
where is your shop?

Flyincedar
April 16, 2012, 11:54 PM
where is your shop?
Manufacture will actually begin in July timeframe. The shop is in Columbus, OH

huntsman
April 17, 2012, 12:39 AM
^ you got a website?

Flyincedar
April 17, 2012, 03:00 AM
Yes, www.gunenvy.com

There is no manufacturing info on there yet. We also build high end 1/2 MOA guaranteed ARs, that are not on the site either. We are working on a dedicated website for those.

If you have questions, feel free to send me a PM.

jmorris
April 17, 2012, 10:11 AM
I have few old shotguns I would love to shorten the barrel on for $5.00 a pop.
Anything you put on a form 1 is going to cost $200.
My shop is going to start manufacturing them in April, and I think a lot of people will be facing a massive wait because of the election year and all. It's a shame.

A shame that they have to wait or a shame you might not build them fast enough and they might buy from other manufacturers? Transfer wait time has been around forever.

ISO1600
April 18, 2012, 01:38 PM
like others have said:

building AOW = $200
transfer AOW = $5

build SBS = $200
transfer SBS = $200

AOW can only be built from a virgin receiver or one that left factory as PGO (mossberg cruiser, etc). If you add a shoulder stock without first doing paperwork+stamp for SBS, you are breaking the law.
SBS is more appealing to me, because i could do the paperwork for my 870, pay the tax ($200), and just throw a short barrel (or cut mine) on when it gets approved. As an SBS, i'd have the option to mount whatever stock or barrel i want on there, at least temporarily.

MasterSergeantA
April 18, 2012, 06:09 PM
The deciding factor for some may be that SBS are illegal in some states where AOWs are not.

Ludasmith
April 18, 2012, 08:59 PM
Just a note, I believe that Remington is no longer offering a model that can be an AOW. I'm 99% sure I saw that regarding Serbu Shortys.

Carl N. Brown
April 19, 2012, 07:49 AM
AOWs were made and sold as concealable weapons (AOW "any other weapon" concealable firearm not a conventional revolver or pistol).

SBSs were made and sold as long guns (less restricted), then converted to concealable firearms (more restricted).

States take different views on concealable firearms, revolvers, pistols, AOWs and SBSs.

My home state lets ATF and NFA regulate AOWs and SBSs but the state historically has had more regulation of handgun dealers than of long gun dealers.

A lot of jurisdictions see shortening a long gun to concealable dimensions as an evasion of their handgun laws.

CertAdjust
June 14, 2012, 08:42 PM
MasterSergeantA
March 14, 2012, 03:50 PM
Sam nailed it. Additionally, once you have "manufactured" the SBS by adding a stock, it will never again be an AOW and will transfer at the higher tax rate ($200 vs. $5).

Would this apply to an AOW 870 MCS? For example, what if an AOW 870 MCS were to be configured with a pistol grip and a 14" barrel and later changed (manufactured ???) with the included stock and 18" barrel, i.e. a regular shotgun . . . would this prevent one from reconfiguring it back to the AOW status? Is changing the configuration considered to be "manufacturing"? I read that just having the parts to manufacture something is considered the same as the act itself.

Since an AOW is not considered to be a pistol, rifle, or shotgun, would it be legal in CA to openly carry it (unloaded or loaded) similar to openly carrying a huge knife ?

Thanks all.

ISO1600
June 14, 2012, 11:49 PM
i've never seen the MCS sold as an AOW, always the kit as a SBS.

Personally, i think buying a MCS as an AOW is downright stupid, as the point of the MCS is the modularity.

Quiet
June 15, 2012, 03:53 AM
In the past, Remington sold 870MCS as AOWs.
This is when they were sold in the breacher configuration by themselves and not as part of the kit.

However, as of last year, Remington no longer sells the 870MCS as a standalone firearm. So, it is no longer being sold as an AOW, only as a SBS.


Remington 870MCS transfered as an AOW in 08-2010.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s9/gunrunner99/IMG_4319.jpg


O.C. Armory in Laguna Hills, CA (http://www.ocarmory.com/) sells these Remington 870 AOWs.
http://www.ocarmory.com/144.JPG

Quiet
June 15, 2012, 04:01 AM
Since an AOW is not considered to be a pistol, rifle, or shotgun, would it be legal in CA to openly carry it (unloaded or loaded) similar to openly carrying a huge knife ?

Per CA laws [PC 16530], a firearm with a less than 16" barrel is considered a "handgun".
Therefore, all handgun laws apply to that firearm.

CA restricts where/when you can legally open carry an unloaded [PC 26350] or loaded [PC 25850] firearm.
These restrictions are different than those of open carrying a knife.

However, because AOWs are considered "handguns", they can be listed as an authorized handgun on a CA LTC permit.
Once listed, it would be legal to conceal carry one.

CertAdjust
July 3, 2012, 04:39 PM
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CertAdjust
July 3, 2012, 07:58 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Quiet
However, because AOWs are considered "handguns", they can be listed as an authorized handgun on a CA LTC permit.
Once listed, it would be legal to conceal carry one.



What are the chances that a CLEO would approve a CCW for a Serbu Shorty or a Taurus Judge with a VG that is in a trust? Think it would be similar to asking them to initially sign off on the AOW without having to create a trust.

King_John_I
July 3, 2012, 08:10 PM
Just go to this site and check out the KSG give away.
Great "shorty shotgun"
someone win and post pics and range info please!

http://grabagun.com/giveaway

Landric
July 3, 2012, 08:41 PM
I think my next NFA item will be an AOW 12 gauge similar to a super shorty. I have a pistol grip only (from the factory that way) Mossberg that I think I am going to pay a SOT to convert so it can transfer back to me (well, my trust) for $5. I'll eventually do a SBS also, but that will be on a form 1, and I'll do it myself.

At the moment I am keeping all my items that I need permission to move out of state (SBRs, SBSs, and MGs if I ever have the money for that) as individual transfers so my name is actually on the transport paperwork and not the trust name. My suppressors and when I do the AOW, that, will be on my trust. At the moment one of the CLEOs who has jurisdiction over where I live is a gun nut, and also my boss, so sign offs are not a problem. He is probably going to be retiring in two years though, so I need to get as many form 1s in as I can between now and then.

Quiet
July 4, 2012, 06:47 AM
What are the chances that a CLEO would approve a CCW for a Serbu Shorty or a Taurus Judge with a VG that is in a trust? Think it would be similar to asking them to initially sign off on the AOW without having to create a trust.

Very slim to none.
About the same chance that the issuing agency will approve an AR/AK type pistol.

I know of one person that had an AOW listed on their CA LTC permit, but when his issuing agency got a new CLEO, they would not let him keep it on the permit when he went to renew.

CertAdjust
July 6, 2012, 12:28 AM
The PG options for the 10" MCS are:

• Pachmayr Vindicator (Already on MCS).
One would think that Remington would select the best possible PG. Therefore, this seems to be the most likely choice.

• Knoxx BreachersGrip
Even though Remington selected the Pachmayr, the Knoxx Breacher seems to be popular as well among civilians and LE. It’s design, in theory, makes sense. Don’t know the military’s stance on the Knoxx.

A NIB AOW 10" 870MCS with Blackhawk Knoxx BreachersGrip and nylon case sells for $1,000. However, the original Pachmayr PG is not available.

Since MCS parts are not available to civilians (I called REM), am thinking of getting a more expensive one ($1,200) from a different dealer) with the original MCS Pachmayr grip but without the case. I could always get a different grip later but won't ever be able to get an original MCS Pachmayr grip as a replacement part.

However, if the Knoxx is the one I'd most likely end up with, I could save $200 just on the cost of the MCS, not including the cost of the Knoxx PG and case.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks all.

Quiet
July 6, 2012, 08:04 AM
The Knoxx BreacherGrip does reduce felt recoil.

CertAdjust
July 6, 2012, 08:15 AM
The Knoxx BreacherGrip does reduce felt recoil.
Quiet, thanks so much for all your informative replies.

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