Would you call the cops?


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Tipro
March 14, 2012, 01:25 PM
This is completely hypothetical, and did NOT happen to me.

You are in college, and on the way to class you see a man walking down the road with an AR-15 strapped across his back. Not doing anything abnormal (besides the obvious gun totting), and his dress or demeanor do not alarm you. You live in a state that doesn't allow carry on a college campus. Do you call the cops?

Divorce your answer from obligations to report a crime in progress.

I would call the police. Although I would like to see legal carry on a college campus, it's not legal, and this man has demonstrated himself to be a criminal. His lack of respect for the law scares me, and the fear of the hell he could unleash would make me immediately phone the police. As a law abiding person, I would not be carrying my weapon on a college campus, and my lack of ability to stop him from a distance, if it was necessary, scares me.

Am I wrong? Would anyone not call the cops?

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Iramo94
March 14, 2012, 01:37 PM
If he were on the sidewalk, I would consider that not on campus, since the roads are public land. If OC were legal in the state, I'd have no problems with him on the sidewalk. Now on a trail through a privately owned quad, that's another story.

CoRoMo
March 14, 2012, 01:38 PM
His lack of respect for the law scares me...
Don't be afraid. He might not be as knowledgeable about the laws as you. It might not be a real gun. Things may not be as you assume. You might ruin a guy's life when nothing that you assumed was happening was actually happening.
...my lack of ability... scares me.
Don't be afraid. Keep learning. Keep training. Keep thinking and don't let your emotions get the best of you.

Old krow
March 14, 2012, 01:41 PM
Am I wrong? Would anyone not call the cops?

I sort of doubt that I would *immediately do so*, however, there are many more details that should be had before arriving at the conclusion.

If I thought that everyone that had ever demonstrated that they were a criminal was dangerous, I'd never leave my own home. Even then I'd sell my own gun. Most folks break over 100 laws everyday before lunch and don't even know it.

CountryUgly
March 14, 2012, 01:41 PM
The 2nd Amendment IS mine and your right to carry besides most carry laws refer to handguns only such as where I live you carry a pistol openly you go to jail but it's perfectly legal for a person to walk down the road with an AR strapped to their back so if your hypothetical happened where I live no I wouldn't call the cops because he wasn't breaking any laws but if he was walking with a Heritage .22lr revolver sticking visibly out of his back pocket guess I'd be obligated to phone in wouldn't I.

Bovice
March 14, 2012, 01:43 PM
Rights or no rights to carry that rifle in public, I don't know the man's intentions. It is out of the ordinary to me. I would not call the police, but I would keep a watchful eye on him. As long as it stays strapped on his back, it isn't posing a threat to anybody. When he reaches around and starts to raise it is when I would worry.

jon86
March 14, 2012, 01:47 PM
Would I call the cops? Yes. And I wouldn't go to class, I'd go home and take a nap.

Paris
March 14, 2012, 01:51 PM
Yes, I would call the police. We are a nation of laws and are bound by them. This is what separates us from Iran, China, etc, where the law is meaningless when government officials kidnap and execute or imprison whoever they want whenever they want.

The rule of law must be adhered to.

ObsidianOne
March 14, 2012, 02:11 PM
I'd say "Right on. Embrace your rights" and continue on with my day.

Teachu2
March 14, 2012, 02:11 PM
Absolutely call the police. We've had enough school shooting headlines that anyone who would strap a gun on their back and walk near a school needs the sort of attention that the police can provide fastest.

At the very least, he's an idiot...

M-Cameron
March 14, 2012, 02:32 PM
would i freak out and immediately call the police.......no.

i would however stop by the campus police office and tell them what i thought i saw.......he may for all i know have permission/ be ROTC running drills with dummy rifles/ prop for play/ ect. and in a case like that......campus police would have that information where metro police most likely wouldnt, and cause a full force response to something that doesnt require it.


i think it is safe to say the vast majority of gun owners know that for the most part carrying a gun on a school/ college campus is a no no.......

and given that most colleges are in cities/ sub-urban areas........places where having a need to open carry a rifle is slim.......chances are good he has it for some other means than bear/coyote/ lion protection.

Cesiumsponge
March 14, 2012, 02:34 PM
I keep an eye on anything out of the ordinary. If you're open carrying, dressed like a cowboy, or carrying a sign about the end of the world. Things that are out of place warrant some attention to assess the situation.

Sam1911
March 14, 2012, 03:04 PM
I keep an eye on anything out of the ordinary. If you're open carrying, dressed like a cowboy, or carrying a sign about the end of the world. Things that are out of place warrant some attention to assess the situation.
Amen to that.

I am not a law enforcement officer. My duties, such as they pertain to this hypothetical fellow, entirely begin and end with making sure I (and my family) are not in danger. I don't agree with laws against the bearing of arms (period) and, as I am not in any way sworn to enforce them, I have no inclination to do so.

Having been one brick wall away from a public (attempted) mass-shooting where the deranged rifleman did manage to kill someone before being disarmed, I understand why folks appearing with rifles where they are not expected can be alarming. However, seeing a rifle being carried does not equal being at any threat from that rifle, or the person carrying it.

Skribs
March 14, 2012, 04:09 PM
You might ruin a guy's life when nothing that you assumed was happening was actually happening.

If, in fact, he had perfectly legal intentions, and complied with the officers when they arrived, then all should be fine. However, if they tell him to put his weapon down and he screams "F- YOU PIGS!", it's his own fault, and NOT MINE, that he got shot by the cops.

If I thought that everyone that had ever demonstrated that they were a criminal was dangerous, I'd never leave my own home.

There's a difference between someone who demonstrated they were a criminal in the past and someone who is currently breaking the law with a deadly weapon.

CountryUgly, if carry on a school is illegal, and he's carrying on a school, then he's breaking the law.

I would not call the police, but I would keep a watchful eye on him. As long as it stays strapped on his back, it isn't posing a threat to anybody. When he reaches around and starts to raise it is when I would worry.

And at that point, the cops are too late.

Like the OP said, he doesn't have a firearm because he is following the law and not carrying on a school campus. Therefore, the person with the AR, if he is a threat, is going to have the advantage. It is not my place to deal with it, but I will call the cops.

The right to bear arms is a means to protect ourselves, but arms are also used criminally. To ignore that is to lax on vigilance. If I saw someone carrying illegally, I would call the cops, and let them deal with it.

Sam1911
March 14, 2012, 04:36 PM
If, in fact, he had perfectly legal intentions, and complied with the officers when they arrived, then all should be fine. However, if they tell him to put his weapon down and he screams "<Something unpleasant>!", it's his own fault, and NOT MINE, that he got shot by the cops.No, all will NOT be "fine." If carrying that weapon in that location was against a malum prohibidum law, then he's going to lose his gun, spend time in jail, pay heavy fines, and probably all three.

Now, that may be acceptable to you, because he broke a law, but I am opposed to such laws, and wish to see no one prosecuted under them. Especially someone who has done nothing overly dangerous or threatening, and who may in fact have no idea that he's violating a law.

I will not break these laws, myself, but I also will not assist in someone's prosecution for them.

So, when someone points out that you might ruin this guy's life, they are right. Maybe you feel that's just "tough to be you, buddy!" but I can't quite see it like that.

There's a difference between someone who demonstrated they were a criminal in the past and someone who is currently breaking the law with a deadly weapon.

Sure. And there's a difference between someone breaking a malum prohibidum law and on that is truly malum in se. Has he harmed anyone? Or committed any evil act? No? Then none of my business.

You may say that his breaking of a no weapons ordinance is indicative that he might be going to do so, but I challenge that as a spurious assertion. Seeing someone carrying a rifle down the sidewalk on the other side of the street (where it would be presumably legal) is no less, or more, of a threat to me.

I would not call the police, but I would keep a watchful eye on him. As long as it stays strapped on his back, it isn't posing a threat to anybody. When he reaches around and starts to raise it is when I would worry.
And at that point, the cops are too late.
Well...so what? How is this different from any other person you'd see with a firearm outside of a shooting range or hunting field? Aren't they just one small step away from the cops being "too late?"

This absolutely sounds as though you don't trust people to go armed and are using the legal technicality as an excuse to have them removed and punished.

Like the OP said, he doesn't have a firearm because he is following the law and not carrying on a school campus. Therefore, the person with the AR, if he is a threat, is going to have the advantage. It is not my place to deal with it, but I will call the cops.IF he is going to be a threat? IF he was going to be a threat, he'd be a threat wherever he was standing with that rifle, whether his presence there was legal or not. You're taking a big step saying that his perhaps unknowing or accidental violation of a malum prohibidum law indicates murderous intent. I'd say the facts known do not warrant any claim to that effect -- not even close!

I would treat this man the same way I'd treat any other person I met -- especially someone visibly armed. Keep an eye open and go about my business. If my own observations warranted it, I might even give him a big smile and a word of advice about not breaking the law and ending up in the clink.

Ringolevio
March 14, 2012, 04:38 PM
I have mixed feelings about this hypothetical scenario.

But I'd just like to say that I remember, in my own lifetime, when a couple of 12-yr. olds walking down the street or even riding the bus with their .22 rifles didn't raise an eyebrow in most American cities and towns.

There was a long period in our history when the USA was known throughout the world as "a nation of riflemen".
And I'd like to say how much more peaceable and secure we'd all feel if a significant portion of the citizenry walked around with slung rifles.

Sheepdog1968
March 14, 2012, 04:40 PM
Would I call the cops? Yes. And I wouldn't go to class, I'd go home and take a nap.
This would be my approach.

JohnBT
March 14, 2012, 04:42 PM
"You are in college, and on the way to class you see a man walking down the road "

On campus? Off campus? Public road or college road? Not enough info. I used to live off campus, so "on the way to class" was mostly on public roads.

Maybe it's airsoft or something. Who knows. Is he headed away from school? Going to a parking lot or in the direction of a local range?

I'd probably pull up alongside and ask him if I can tag along if he's going shooting and see what he says. Seriously. Maybe he needs a ride.

John

Sam1911
March 14, 2012, 04:48 PM
Perhaps the guy you see going somewhere with a visibly slung rifle is not the guy trying to sneak somewhere to do something unpleasant.

There are some mighty crazy people in the world, but inviting public notice and getting hassled/tackled by cops is not a great plan for making the national news in a bad way.

I'd be more worried about the guy with a rifle broken down in a gym bag than the one carrying it openly. Maybe, next time you're on campus, you aught to call the cops on anyone with a gym bag.

:rolleyes:

gunnutery
March 14, 2012, 04:49 PM
you see a man walking down the road with an AR-15 strapped across his back.

No, unless I knew that said road belonged to Hypothetical University. I may observe him for a bit. But I'm also assuming that OC law allowed for this.

Skribs
March 14, 2012, 05:03 PM
Sam, I'm not particularly interested in the law in this case. I carry for self defense. If I am allowed to carry somewhere, and I see someone with a gun, I'm not that concerned unless I see him draw, because I know I have an equal option to defend myself. That's the difference. It's that, in this situation, I don't have a gun, and he does. If that's because I chose at random not to carry, then it's my fault. However, if it is because I was following the law, then yes, I would be afraid.

Put simply, I wouldn't be calling the cops so that he would be arrested. I'd be calling the cops so that someone with an equalizer is aware of the situation.

I guess I did miss the part about road...if he's not on campus property, then I wouldn't see an issue. If he was, then I'd personally be worried.

Agsalaska
March 14, 2012, 05:09 PM
I have trouble believing there are too many people just walking down the sidewalk with an AR-15 without knowing whether or not that is legal. :uhoh:

NavyLCDR
March 14, 2012, 05:11 PM
No, I would not call the police. I would probably approach the person and ask if they knew it was illegal to have the gun on campus, or if they knew they were in fact on a campus.

What if the guy just bought the gun and was taking it home and did not know the campus law or the boundaries of the campus?

What if he was on his way somewhere to sell the gun?

Here's why I would not call the police:

(b) It shall be a Class I felony for any person knowingly to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any gun, rifle, pistol, or other firearm of any kind on educational property or to a curricular or extracurricular activity sponsored by a school.

The dude gets a FELONY!!! Just for doing something that should be protected by the 2nd Amendment of the US to begin with. And there are plenty of reasons why he may unintentionally be violating the law.

Sure, the law says "knowingly" to possess or carry, but I won't put an innocent person in danger of getting a felony conviction for wandering one block in the wrong direction.

Old krow
March 14, 2012, 05:13 PM
There's a difference between someone who demonstrated they were a criminal in the past and someone who is currently breaking the law with a deadly weapon.

I don't call the cops every time I see someone speeding either. :)

lobo9er
March 14, 2012, 05:24 PM
If, in fact, he had perfectly legal intentions, and complied with the officers when they arrived, then all should be fine.

I am not cop bashing but theres a chance they could arrive yelling and trying to be intimidating and very well could create a situation out of nothing. NOt a shooting but a fishing trip to see what they can catch. And pow crime with a gun = felony charge in NY. Regardless of the crime. Happened to friends nieghbor last week carrying gun into his apartment. Not illegal but boy those LEO's worked him over verbally so I heard fortunatly he was clear.... After being surounded, harassed and lectured.

Gimmered
March 14, 2012, 05:41 PM
The 1000 ft bufferzone include college campus. I live less than a block from our college. Last year a neighbor came home from the range and was proudly walking around with his rifle not realizing he was violating federal law while he was off of his property. Apparently it was called into our local PD as the dorms were put on lockdown until they figured out what was going on.

the_hustleman
March 14, 2012, 05:43 PM
I'd politely, yet carefully ask the guy if he knew it was illegal. If he knew, then yes I call.

If he didn't, I'd recommend he put it away before the next guy isn't nearly as nice.

*swyped from the evo so excuse any typos*

JustinJ
March 14, 2012, 05:58 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I would not call the police, but I would keep a watchful eye on him. As long as it stays strapped on his back, it isn't posing a threat to anybody. When he reaches around and starts to raise it is when I would worry.

And at that point, the cops are too late.

Well...so what? How is this different from any other person you'd see with a firearm outside of a shooting range or hunting field? Aren't they just one small step away from the cops being "too late?"

Its different because there is a rational reason for said person to have an AR15 outside a range or hunting field. Walking down the street near a campus...not so.

For those who say they would not call, what if he was walking towards a school in which you had a love one attending or working at?

A person technically has the right to walk around with a ski mask on his face but common sense dictates he probably has nefarious intentions unless there are ski poles on his feet. Same thing with an AR over the shoulder on a city sidwalk.

NavyLCDR
March 14, 2012, 06:10 PM
Its different because there is a rational reason for said person to have an AR15 outside a range or hunting field. Walking down the street near a campus...not so.

For those who say they would not call, what if he was walking towards a school in which you had a love one attending or working at?

A person technically has the right to walk around with a ski mask on his face but common sense dictates he probably has nefarious intentions unless there are ski poles on his feet. Same thing with an AR over the shoulder on a city sidwalk.

There is a large group of people who say exactly the same thing about people who walk around with holstered handguns...permits or not.

In response to your question in the middle paragraph, my answer in post #23 still stands.

JustinJ
March 14, 2012, 06:13 PM
There is a large group of people who say exactly the same thing about people who walk around with holstered handguns...permits or not.

Yes, they do. But there is a strong counter in that a holstered handgun is a suitable weapon for self defense given that LE carry them around on their person, unlike AR15s.

ny32182
March 14, 2012, 06:31 PM
The answer is going to vary based on the situation we all see in our heads, which is going to be different for every person, in terms of what they imagine.

I can tell you that had I seen a guy heading through the middle of campus with an AR openly displayed during my days at Clemson (assuming he wasn't part of an ROTC formation), I wouldn't have to call the cops, because the other few hundred students within visual range already would have. I'd be rapidly getting as far away from the area as possible. That has nothing to do with my support or lack thereof of the 2nd amendment, or any other idealistic goals for society; it has everything to do with the fact that the practical reality of that place and time is that any sane individual would know that in that context and place, the only result of openly carrying a rifle in that fashion is going to quickly result in something between getting arrested, and getting dead.

If I see someone who I know is well armed and doesn't care about getting arrested or getting dead, I don't want to be anywhere in the vicinity for whatever is going to transpire in the next ten minutes, because any way you cut it, it is not going to be pretty.

Agsalaska
March 14, 2012, 06:52 PM
I support post #31.

Sam1911
March 14, 2012, 06:56 PM
Sam, I'm not particularly interested in the law in this case.
I think that's the point I was making. An armed person appears to make you nervous. If he happens to be in a 'gun-free' zone, you see that as an convenient means to eliminate his presence, making you feel safer.

If he's out on the street where it happens to be legal...well, that's too bad, I guess. Maybe you could follow him and see if he jaywalks. You could call the cops then and have him removed.

I carry for self defense. If I am allowed to carry somewhere, and I see someone with a gun, I'm not that concerned unless I see him draw, because I know I have an equal option to defend myself. That's the difference. It's that, in this situation, I don't have a gun, and he does. If that's because I chose at random not to carry, then it's my fault. However, if it is because I was following the law, then yes, I would be afraid.
So you wouldn't be afraid unless the reason you weren't equally armed was that the law said you couldn't be? The presence or absence of the law itself is what defines whether you are safe or in danger?

I guess I did miss the part about road...if he's not on campus property, then I wouldn't see an issue. If he was, then I'd personally be worried.How could you NOT see an issue? He has a RIFLE. He could remain safely off campus property and kill people over 300 yards inside campus! Doesn't that worry you?

Sam1911
March 14, 2012, 06:59 PM
The 1000 ft bufferzone include college campus. I live less than a block from our college. Last year a neighbor came home from the range and was proudly walking around with his rifle not realizing he was violating federal law while he was off of his property.
No, the federal Gun Free School Zone Act(s) do not cover colleges and universities.

The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

Sam1911
March 14, 2012, 07:03 PM
Its different because there is a rational reason for said person to have an AR15 outside a range or hunting field. Walking down the street near a campus...not so.
NavyLCDR gave a couple of perfectly rational reasons.

I spent MANY days carrying rifles across more than one college campus back in the day. Now, I don't believe any of them were ever uncased, so folks would have had at least a 3-second extra warning had I decided to uncase them and kill me some folks.

Are we so deluded as to think there's some magic involved in whether a rifle is cased or slung?

Like I said, I'm more worried about all those HIDDEN guns. Aren't they SCARY?

Agsalaska
March 14, 2012, 07:13 PM
You are making the assurtion that carrying an AR-15 on a college campus is rational. First, I do not for a second believe that someone would actually carry an ar-15 on the street slung over his shoulder without knowing whether or not it was legal. I just dont buy it. The reason guys do it where they can is because they can. But you better believe they know whether or not they can do it. If they dont find that out in today's climate there is something wrong with the, So making that assumption, which in my mind is a fair assumtpion, the guy either A. There is somethign wrong with them or B. He knows and doesnt care. Either one of those instances would be reason to worry and call the cops.

You cant sit there and twittle your thumbs and act like everything is normal all day long with an AR-15 in an area it was legal. But if you are somewhere that it is not legal than people will and should call the cops on you.

fatcat4620
March 14, 2012, 07:40 PM
Is there a mag in this rifle?

Isaac-1
March 14, 2012, 07:46 PM
There is a case going on now here in Louisiana where a guy was caught open carrying a handgun (which is normally legal) in the parking lot at an event center while a public festival was going on. His bad luck is he did not know the event center is owned by the local university not the city, etc. (it is located a mile or so away from their campus and the name does not directly imply the university) which made it a firearm free zone.


To answer the question, yes I would probably call, most likely either the guy is seeking attention, means harm, or has permission

Old Shooter
March 14, 2012, 07:50 PM
As long as it stays strapped on his back, it isn't posing a threat to anybody. When he reaches around and starts to raise it is when I would worry.

At this point, if he is a bad guy, somebody is going to die.

If he is a good guy, what's he gonna do, shoot a woodchuck?

I'd call the cops and let them sort it out.

JVaughn
March 14, 2012, 08:01 PM
No. Not my business. Just a man exercising his 2A rights.
If I passed him, he passed and armed man too - he just didn't realize it.

buck460XVR
March 14, 2012, 08:08 PM
I tend to agree with Agsalaska. Ain't many folks out there that own guns that don't know they are illegal on campus grounds. If one knows this and still open carrys, he knows he is gonna get called out on it and in some cases may WANT to be called out on it. If they are that uninformed and don't know the law, then they deserve to be questioned by LEOs and suffer the resulting consequences. As a gunowner, you are responsible to know know what is legal or not, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Saying there may be a legitimate reason for a average citizen to have a uncased gun on campus is ridiculous......there IS no legitimate reason. So said the Police Chief at the University where my son goes during parent orientation. Not calling the cops because you don't agree with the law is your choice, but don't try to disguise it by claiming "oh well, odds are he has a good reason".:rolleyes: If the gun toter does turn out to be the next Virginia Tech shooter, I wish you good luck living with yourself.

zxcvbob
March 14, 2012, 08:10 PM
Yes, I would call the police. We are a nation of laws and are bound by them. This is what separates us from Iran, China, etc, where the law is meaningless when government officials kidnap and execute or imprison whoever they want whenever they want.

The rule of law must be adhered to.

Whenever I hear someone like Obama (or Bush) or someone else in power saying "Nation of laws, not of men" in a speech, I know he thinks he's personally above the law and he's talking about everybody else.

Anyway, in the scenario as it was presented I would mind my own business. And I would hope the rifleman would give me the same courtesy if a gust of wind blew my shirt up and my CCW was exposed.

__________________
"The law is a ass" -- Mr. Bumble, from Oliver Twist

jerkface11
March 14, 2012, 08:17 PM
Yes you should always call the police when you see a tyranical unjust law being broken. Remember "if you see something say something".

Ankeny
March 14, 2012, 08:23 PM
The answer is going to vary based on the situation we all see in our heads, which is going to be different for every person, in terms of what they imagine. I agree. Based on the situation I see in my head I would call the police on a non-emergency number just as an informational item.

AABEN
March 14, 2012, 08:28 PM
You will get all kind of answers and WHO is wright???

robMaine
March 14, 2012, 08:45 PM
Whether I called or not really depends on the gut feeling I would get. No matter what I would probably leave.

Regardless of arguments of legality, our constitutional rights and whether or not I think it should be socially acceptable to carry a slung rifle, there is one fact. In our country currently, carrying a slung rifle across a populated area/campus is NOT socially acceptable and everyone knows this. This tells me the person is either up to no good, completely oblivious to laws and social norms, or looking to make a statement/attention. Either way they are not someone I want to be around with a loaded gun.

Teachu2
March 14, 2012, 08:56 PM
Situational awareness is paramount in this decision, and we all color the scenario according to our perceptions. I fully support gun rights. I'm also old enough to have hunted dove before school and locked my 12ga in the trunk of my car in the high school parking lot. When I was in college, I had a CCW - and carried on campus, with the knowledge and consent of the State Police officers assigned to the campus. They even allowed me to store guns in their lockup when I lived in the dorms. When I started teaching high school in 1996, it was still legal for me to carry at work!

Times have changed. Nobody could have imagined Columbine, VA Tech, or the DC Sniper in 1980. Now such incidents inspire other tortured souls to aspire to do the same.

Rights come with responsibilities. The right of free speech doesn't mean that I'm free to slander anyone, anywhere, anytime, or to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. The Second doesn't give us the right to carry in a prison, courthouse, or commercial airliner.

Anyone walking down a street in the vicinity of a school - or shopping mall, or sports stadium - openly carrying a gun and expecting to not draw the attention of law enforcement is delusional.

tomrkba
March 14, 2012, 09:14 PM
Is the man breaking the law? It seems not based upon the description given. A slung rifle is like a holstered pistol and is completely safe. His behavior is not alarming.

There is no reason to call the police.

wep45
March 14, 2012, 09:18 PM
live and let live:)

Millwright
March 14, 2012, 09:29 PM
I'll give everyone, instead, a "real world scenario" I participated in when I was in college in the Sixties. It, too, had a "gun ban" . It also had guns in significant numbers in dorm rooms - male and female alike - as well as a lively trade in guns ! Target shooting/plinking was a regular activity at several "on but off" campus dorms, one of which was adjacent to - and in full view - the college President's house !

No one got shot or killed ! I do recall one student getting temporarily detained by the FBI when boarding a flight out of Washington National he responded to the CA's question regarding the weight of his carry on package with "its a German submachine gun" . (During his scheduled layover he visited a milsurp dealer in D.C. and bought a dewat MP-40 . The FBI took possession and shortly delivered it to his home in NJ with no problems !)

IOW, the question posed is unanswerable given the limited data presented. The individual might well be an ROTC member enroute to an activity . He could equally as well have been a "dog hunter" hiking over to a buddy's in order to go out ! IOW, just because what you see is "unnatural" to your experience it isn't necessarily threatening or unusual to that particular location. >MW

ChCx2744
March 14, 2012, 09:33 PM
I wouldn't use the same entrance where I saw him. I'd go to the opposite side of campus and park there. Then, I'd go to a campus police officer (My college has campus police everywhere) and let him know that there's someone walking down the sidewalk with what looks like a rifle. Even if I didn't say anything, if someone is walking on the sidewalk near campus OCing what appears to be an AR, I'm pretty sure someone else is going to call the police and they are going to be there quite fast.

A normal person wouldn't just do that...People understand that walking around near a college open carrying a rifle isn't a good idea and will attract police presence. I don't know anyone who would intentionally do that, unless they are looking for trouble.

buck460XVR
March 14, 2012, 09:36 PM
Is the man breaking the law? It seems not based upon the description given.



....as per the OP.


You live in a state that doesn't allow carry on a college campus.



....by the description, the man is breaking the law.

I surely hope that at some point it will be legal for all students on college campuses to CCW for their own protection. In some states this is already legal. Many other states are also considering making it legal. That still does not justify it in states where it is not legal, whether you agree with the law or not. This would be a 'ell of a place to live if everyone only had to obey the laws they agreed with.


Whenever I hear someone like Obama (or Bush) or someone else in power saying "Nation of laws, not of men" in a speech, I know he thinks he's personally above the law and he's talking about everybody else.

Anyway, in the scenario as it was presented I would mind my own business. And I would hope the rifleman would give me the same courtesy if a gust of wind blew my shirt up and my CCW was exposed.



Doesn't openly boasting about breaking the law(as per the scenario presented in the OP) make it appear you too feel you are above the law and is putting you down to the same level as those you loath? Again, I too disagree with the gun policy on many college campuses, but until it is changed, I certainly am not going to advocate breaking the law and giving the antis more evidence of irresponsible and criminal gunowners.

Carl N. Brown
March 14, 2012, 09:52 PM
A report to police objectively conveying the observable facts: on the road in the campus with a slung rifle, "not doing anything (otherwise) abnormal" or alarming, but carrying rifle on a sling, should be reported calmly.

I would not report the 4th paragraph verbiage "criminal", "scares", "fear of hell", etc. or hype up the police response. A false report can backfire. You don't want to panic the police into thinking there's an active shooter if it is not the case.

Geez, the worst recent murderer in my home town killed three people in two incidents with knife and baseball bat, so I don't believe in freaking out over guns. Since the murderer used weapons of opportunity found on premises, a multiple killer could look like just about anyone without a gun.

That said, if I had a legitimate reason to walk down a road with an AR-15 on campus, it would be cased.

au01st
March 14, 2012, 10:00 PM
I'd probably go up and talk to him about OC and give him a high-five.

mdauben
March 14, 2012, 10:15 PM
Don't be afraid. He might not be as knowledgeable about the laws as you. It might not be a real gun. Things may not be as you assume. You might ruin a guy's life when nothing that you assumed was happening was actually happening.
And he might be a psychotic grad student going to shoot up his professor's class for giving him a bad grade last semester. If we wait until the bullets start to fly, it may well be too late for someone, just because you didn't want to make waves. :uhoh:

All this talk about 2A rights is fine and I believe in them, but I also believe in responsible gun ownership, and even if the individual isn't getting ready to go "Virginia Tech" on a bunch of innocent bystanders, OC'ing a semiautomatic rifle through a college campus is both illegal and foolish. If he doesn't know that, there is something seriously wrong with him.

I actually ran into a similar situation a few years back, only the individual was carrying a compound crossbow, not a firearm, and dressed head to foot in camo. Still, he was walking down a public bike path frequented by people from infants to retirees, in an area where it ran between people's back yards, and at least several miles from the nearest area where he might conceivably have gone hunting (not that it was hunting season, anyway). So, as soon as I passed him I did call the police. I didn't hang around to see what happened but IMO he deserved any trouble he got.

zxcvbob
March 14, 2012, 10:15 PM
Doesn't openly boasting about breaking the law(as per the scenario presented in the OP) make it appear you too feel you are above the law and is putting you down to the same level as those you loath? Again, I too disagree with the gun policy on many college campuses, but until it is changed, I certainly am not going to advocate breaking the law and giving the antis more evidence of irresponsible and criminal gunowners.


Sorry, I'm 52 years old and "You are in college, and on the way to class..." is beyond my ability to imagine anymore. ;) (btw, the recurring nightmares about "missed a final exam because I overslept", or "found out at the end of the semester that I forgot to officially drop that class I quit going to 2 months ago" just finally stopped a few years ago.

I'm not sure that we have established that anybody is breaking the law here, only that Tipro thinks it's illegal (was the guy with the rifle actually on the campus or was he on a public street, and what does the law actually say?)

I would still mind my own business.

lobo9er
March 14, 2012, 10:15 PM
But there is a strong counter in that a holstered handgun is a suitable weapon for self defense
Funny how some people know what is appropriate for others.

csa77
March 14, 2012, 10:20 PM
in no way would I consider calling the cops. way too many reasons for me to list, not worth the arguments.

lobo9er
March 14, 2012, 10:23 PM
is a wood chuck rifle that scary?

M-Cameron
March 14, 2012, 10:25 PM
I'm not sure that we have established that anybody is breaking the law here, only that Tipro thinks it's illegal (was the guy with the rifle actually on the campus or was he on a public street, and what does the law actually say?)

according to OPs initial hypothetical situation .....it is understood that it is illegal to posses a firearm on a college campus, and that he is breaking the law.

au01st
March 14, 2012, 10:49 PM
Well if we're going to go with the original situation, he said you are on your way to class, and the guy is walking down the road.

I had to drive about 5 miles before I was "on campus". We can assume he was on campus, but that wasn't stated...

Agsalaska
March 14, 2012, 11:09 PM
Well if we're going to go with the original situation, he said you are on your way to class, and the guy is walking down the road.

I had to drive about 5 miles before I was "on campus". We can assume he was on campus, but that wasn't stated...
I believe that we have established in the thread that, for arguments sake, he was on campus even though he was not clear in the OP. But to your point it would make a big difference on how I reacted.

ATW525
March 14, 2012, 11:30 PM
If I call and he gets arrested that's on him, because he chose to carry illegally. If I don't call, and he guns somebody down then that's on me because I saw something wrong and failed to act on it. So, I would call because that's the outcome I'd have an easier time sleeping with.

jerkface11
March 14, 2012, 11:37 PM
Isn't this a forum about guns and gun rights? There seem to be a lot of people here who would call the police on someone who's just walking around with a gun. Would you guys call the cops if the gun was in a case? It's simply ridiculous that when you see someone carrying a rifle you assume he's going to start murdering people.

Voltia
March 14, 2012, 11:53 PM
I am very saddened by the bs I have read here.

The second amendment protects (note I said protects, not grants) the right to carry a weapon wherever you go. Schools, courts, airport cordons...those are current restrictions that are unconstitutional, and a true American will be against them.

Secondly, many college campuses allow carry weapons, thank the Lord. So, don't ASSume that this man's behavior was illegal. Thirdly, if you call in the cops on a man not doing anything wrong, you committed the crime of harassment; I am especially impressed with the cowardice of those that would call the police, then leave and would not apologize if you called wrongly.

Anyone who would call the police in this event needs to look themselves in the mirror, say "I AM the problem with this country" and promptly go register Republican.

denton
March 14, 2012, 11:56 PM
Here in Utah, I'm not sure what I would report.

If the guy has a concealed carry permit he can legally walk across the campus of any state owned university or college while carrying a firearm, and sit down in class that way. I can pack my 1911 while picking up my granddaughter at school (common sense says to do it concealed, of course).

The federal 1000 foot law has been ruled unconstitutional, then re-passed by Congress without significant change. So it's going to cost somebody $250K to get the present version tossed too. And even as it is, it exempts permit holders. So the only real problem is with state laws, and here in Utah permit holders are allowed to carry in state schools. It has been that way for years, with exactly zero problems.

Now if the person looks 16, he's too young to have a permit, and that might be a problem.

It might be worth watching and analyzing for a moment. There might be cases where I would call. Probably my number one motivation would be to make sure that the first call the police got was from a calm voice that says the guy doesn't seem to be doing anything suspicious, but I just wanted them to be aware.

th1229
March 14, 2012, 11:57 PM
Yes i would call.

Gtimothy
March 14, 2012, 11:57 PM
:what:WAY too many IFs in this thread!
I remember deer hunting in the morning before school then taking off the cami's and vest and going to first period. During lunch we would hang around our trucks and compare kills or talk guns. This included the Principal, Vice principal and many of the teachers! Our rifles and shotguns were in the trucks we drove and I NEVER heard of any being stolen or used in a dangerous manner. Today, if someone puts GUN and SCHOOL in the same sentence, the whole world goes completely Bat S**T Crazy!
We have become a society of people who are afraid of their own shadows and that think the police are actually there to protect us from badguys! I got my CCW because I believe the saying "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"

This hypothetical guy walking down the street isn't showing much intellegence, BUT, last time I checked, it wasn't against the law to be stupid! Call the cops if you want. Me personally, I'm gonna keep a weather eye on him :scrutiny: and when he either is no longer in my sight or has done something worthy of my continued attention, I'll decide to call or not. For just walking down the street....no.

Charleo0192
March 15, 2012, 12:06 AM
It's a very rare practice to open-carry rifles where I live. No one does it. If you decide to carry, you can expect a visit or so from the police. As much as I wish open-carry in general were not viewed in this way, it is.

Bobson
March 15, 2012, 12:30 AM
Absolutely call the police. We've had enough school shooting headlines that anyone who would strap a gun on their back and walk near a school needs the sort of attention that the police can provide fastest.

At the very least, he's an idiot...
I agree wholeheartedly, particularly with the second part of this statement. Would I immediately assume he had ill-intent? I honestly don't think so. I'm pretty sure, though, that it would at least make me nervous, mostly because I can't come up with a legitimate reason for someone to be walking down the street with an AR15 slung across one's back - whether that's near a school, a lake, a grocery store, or almost anywhere else.

Whether or not he was breaking any laws is irrelevant, IMO. Frankly, given the area of my school, he would be putting himself in a moderately high amount of danger, even if he wasn't putting anyone else in danger. I'd have to assume he wasn't all there...

So yes, I would call the police - even if it was mostly for his safety.

Neverwinter
March 15, 2012, 12:33 AM
Isn't this a forum about guns and gun rights? There seem to be a lot of people here who would call the police on someone who's just walking around with a gun. Would you guys call the cops if the gun was in a case? It's simply ridiculous that when you see someone carrying a rifle you assume he's going to start murdering people.
"The High Road, an online discussion board dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."
Promoting willful ignorance to a crime in progress is hardly responsible.

Secondly, many college campuses allow carry weapons, thank the Lord. So, don't ASSume that this man's behavior was illegal. Thirdly, if you call in the cops on a man not doing anything wrong, you committed the crime of harassment; I am especially impressed with the cowardice of those that would call the police, then leave and would not apologize if you called wrongly.
The initial premise of the OP states that it is illegal. Calling in that case is justified based on the information available. The expectation that someone should stay behind and apologize if they didn't have complete omniscience and certainty that what they were observing was illegal is unreasonable and fatuous.

lono
March 15, 2012, 12:42 AM
No, I believe in "shall not be infringed." I am not law enforcement and do not think I would need to call them in this situation.

Good hypothetical btw.

Sam1911
March 15, 2012, 07:22 AM
Ain't many folks out there that own guns that don't know they are illegal on campus grounds.
Really? They aren't universally. The GFSZA doesn't cover them so it is entirely up to state law, and state laws differ. It is hardly unrealistic to believe that someone could be unfamiliar with whether or not it was illegal -- especially in a cosmopolitan environment like a college town which attracts at least 50% of its inhabitants from out of town/state.

If they are that uninformed and don't know the law, then they deserve to be questioned by LEOs and suffer the resulting consequences.Really? If someone is uninformed they deserve -- let's be clear here -- not "questioning" by the local police, but almost certain prosecution and conviction, loss of their weapon, and having their future irrevocably "ruined?" They deserve this because they didn't think to go check the statute? I agree that it happens, and the law says what it says and we should follow it to the best of our ability, but I have a hard time with deciding that someone deserves to lose their future and freedom over a law that I see as silly, fearful, and unconstitutional.

As a gunowner, you are responsible to know know what is legal or not, ignorance of the law is no excuse... ...at TRIAL. I am not a judge, nor a jury. I am not going to promote or assist in enforcing this malum prohibidum nonsense.

Not calling the cops because you don't agree with the law is your choice, but don't try to disguise it by claiming "oh well, odds are he has a good reason". If the gun toter does turn out to be the next Virginia Tech shooter, I wish you good luck living with yourself. So...let me get this straight: 80 million gun owners vs. a statistically insignificant number of folks who commit mass murder. But you see a guy with a rifle and you're more comfortable assuming that he's one of the handful of whackos, not one of the millions upon millions of good guys? Even given his less common choice to travel from point A to point B with his rifle slung instead of slipped into a cloth bag, I can't see the logic.

Reading over this thread it is clear: we, the gunniest of the gun guys, are honestly FEARFUL when we see another armed person. That is so disheartening. :(

pockets
March 15, 2012, 07:36 AM
You are in college, and on the way to class you see a man walking down the road with an AR-15 strapped across his back. Not doing anything abnormal (besides the obvious gun toting), and his dress or demeanor do not alarm you. You live in a state that doesn't allow carry on a college campus. Do you call the cops?
As others have pointed out, there is not enough information here.
* "He's not doing anything abnormal" on a road which you can see while you are "on the way to class".
Seems like a non-issue with only those facts to go on.

We bemoan the so-called nanny state and all the anti-gun groups poking their noses into our perfectly legal business.... yet we can't resist doing so ourselves.

I really do miss those days when I could ride my bicycle down the road with a rifle on my back and no one would bat an eye. Or ride the city bus to take a rifle downtown to a gun shop... and not have 47 cell phones dialing for the SWAT team.

M-Cameron
March 15, 2012, 07:38 AM
Isn't this a forum about guns and gun rights? There seem to be a lot of people here who would call the police on someone who's just walking around with a gun. Would you guys call the cops if the gun was in a case? It's simply ridiculous that when you see someone carrying a rifle you assume he's going to start murdering people.

This is in fact a forum about gun rights......AND responsible gun ownership.......and unfortunately, part of being a responsible gun owner, is knowing the laws and regulations, AND ABIDING BY THEM.

hell, go over to the NFA section on the forum and ask them how to make your AR-15 full auto "without paperwork"..........i can guarantee no one will tell you how to do it, and you will receive a bunch of replies telling you it is illegal.........how come we follow and abide by that law??


So...let me get this straight: 80 million gun owners vs. a statistically insignificant number of folks who commit mass murder. But you see a guy with a rifle and you're more comfortable assuming that he's one of the handful of whackos, not one of the millions upon millions of good guys? Even given his less common choice to travel from point A to point B with his rifle slung instead of slipped into a cloth bag, I can't see the logic.

the flaw with this logic........there are no "good" and "bad" guys.........im sure you know life is not like a movie where "good" guys are clearly defined and can never do any harm, and "bad guys" are instantly identifiable and their actions are always devious.

people are capable of actions ranging from incredible good....to incredible evil. you cant try to predict a persons actions because they are "probably a good guy" or " probably a bad guy"

Sam1911
March 15, 2012, 08:15 AM
This is in fact a forum about gun rights......AND responsible gun ownership.......and unfortunately, part of being a responsible gun owner, is knowing the laws and regulations, AND ABIDING BY THEM.
Abide by these useless and unjust laws, yes. But that is a completely different thing than assisting with, aiding, promoting, and enabling the prosecution of others by them. One is a necessary evil. The other is despicable.


hell, go over to the NFA section on the forum and ask them how to make your AR-15 full auto "without paperwork"..........i can guarantee no one will tell you how to do it, and you will receive a bunch of replies telling you it is illegal.........how come we follow and abide by that law??
Agreed, however, no one here would be expected to call the police and report on someone who did. We don't caution people against illegal conversions and unregistered machine guns because such weapons are EVIL, wrong, or bad. We do so to keep people out of trouble with these laws, while we work to change them.

the flaw with this logic........there are no "good" and "bad" guys.........im sure you know life is not like a movie where "good" guys are clearly defined and can never do any harm, and "bad guys" are instantly identifiable and their actions are always devious.But here, there is a person who is either a) going someplace while carrying a rifle, with no intent of harming anyone, or b) a psychotic who's about to murder people. Really, there's no middle ground. He either needs to be removed right away or he's of no concern to anyone and should be left alone. No other possibility really is relevant to this conversation.

people are capable of actions ranging from incredible good....to incredible evil. you cant try to predict a persons actions because they are "probably a good guy" or " probably a bad guy" BUT many here ARE doing so. They are making a choice that this is probably someone who needs to be taken off the streets and locked away for a long time -- and then denied any firearm rights for life -- because they are probably up to no good. If we're going to go assuming, MY assumption is by VERY FAR, the more statistically likely.

cambeul41
March 15, 2012, 08:25 AM
I would probably not call the law.

Years ago, when I was still a student, it seemed that about once a year, a student determinedly marched across campus with a rifle or shotgun clutched to his chest. When asked where he was going, the answer was often "To kill professor so-and-so."

Rather than calling the law, he would be disarmed by other students, taken to a beer hall (legal at age 18 then and there), filled with beer, and encouraged to weepingly purge himself of his woes. The gun would be returned to the owner (sometimes it had been borrowed) days later when the crisis seemed to be past.

To the best of my knowledge, no problems resulted from so doing.

Now I teach in Detroit. Guns are legal on campus -- just not in the classroom, but neither students nor LEOs are universally aware of that. Occasionally I have reason to ask a student if he or she is carrying in class. Of course the answer is always, "No." I then say that if he or she was, I would ask them to go lock it in their car. Sometimes, the student feels the need to go to the restroom. I feel no need to report my suspicions.

jerkface11
March 15, 2012, 08:57 AM
go over to the NFA section on the forum and ask them how to make your AR-15 full auto "without paperwork"..........i can guarantee no one will tell you how to do it, and you will receive a bunch of replies telling you it is illegal.........how come we follow and abide by that law??

I didn't suggest walking around a school with a rifle is a good idea. I didn't tell anyone to do it. I said I WOULD NOT CALL THE POLICE ONE SOMEONE FOR IT. I also would not call the police on someone for having an unregistered machinegun. It simply is not my responsibility to help enforce laws that create victimless crimes.

BSA1
March 15, 2012, 09:10 AM
Judging from some of the responses it looks like we have a loooong way to go to convince only gun owners that merely openly carrying a firearm is not a crime or indiction to commit a crime.

The larger premise of the question is what is the difference between social responsibility and being a agent for the government? Or put more bluntly when do I feel justified reporting a activity that may be illegal but is harmless because I don't approve of it?

The O.P. chose to use a black rifle in is example probably because of the strong anti-gun feelings it provokes even among gun owners. I wonder if he would feel the need to report the individual if he was carrying a flintlock rifle?

Much work and education has been required to convince lawmakers, the public and other gun owners that citizens wanting to carrying a concealed weapon is not a mentally unhinged individual looking for the chance to engage in a gun battle.

That work has laid the groundwork for concealed carry without the approval of Big Sis.


It sounds like open carry has a even tougher battle.

JustinJ
March 15, 2012, 09:20 AM
A guy walking down the street with what appears to be dynamite strapped to his chest may also just be walking to a job on a movie set. I'd err on the side of caution.

M-Cameron
March 15, 2012, 09:27 AM
Judging from some of the responses it looks like we have a loooong way to go to convince only gun owners that merely openly carrying a firearm is not a crime or indiction to commit a crime.

Much work and education has been required to convince lawmakers, the public and other gun owners that citzens wanting to carrying a concealed weapon is a mentally unhinged individual looking for the chance to engage in a gun battle.

It sounds like open carry has a even tougher battle.

according to the hypothetical scenario in question........it is in fact a crime, that is the matter of this discussion.

i dont think anyone here has a problem with people legally OC a firearm.......its when the person intentionally OCs in a prohibited area that cause people to question his motives.

jimmyraythomason
March 15, 2012, 09:28 AM
Call the cops? Heck no! It wouldn't even cross my mind to do so. I have no idea how or why this hypothetical person came to be there with his rifle(car broke down on the way to or from a range,had to walk didn't want to leave the rifle in the unattended car? etc..?) Too many lives have been disrupted by "concerned citizens" calling police on a perceived "crime".

BSA1
March 15, 2012, 09:35 AM
Good point.

What about people who conceal carry in prohibited and areas posted no guns?
They are intentionally violating the law.

zxcvbob
March 15, 2012, 10:05 AM
i dont think anyone here has a problem with people legally OC a firearm.
If you believe that, just check out any of the "OC vs CC" threads.

jimmyraythomason
March 15, 2012, 10:35 AM
What about people who conceal carry in prohibited and areas posted no guns?
They are intentionally violating the law. Nope wouln't call the law on them either. First off if they are carrying concealed(and doing a good job of concealing) I wouldn't even know they were carrying in violation of the prohibition.

Sam1911
March 15, 2012, 10:52 AM
What about people who conceal carry in prohibited and areas posted no guns?
They are intentionally violating the law.

"Ohhh hall monitor! Jimmy's chewing gum in line again! Shouldn't he get sent to the Principal's office?" :rolleyes:

CoRoMo
March 15, 2012, 10:55 AM
I walk around everyday trying to find people who are making mistakes. Then I point a finger of accusation at them and let it be known how poorly they are behaving and I highlight their mishaps for everyone to see.

Poking my nose in other people's business makes me feel like a real big man.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 10:56 AM
Bsa, just bc there is a "no guns" sign doesn't mean its the law. I could put a no guns sign in my yard. Doesn't make it the law.

jimmyraythomason
March 15, 2012, 10:56 AM
Jimmy's chewing gum in line again!Hey! Chewing gum keeps me from getting OUT of line!

Ashcons
March 15, 2012, 11:06 AM
but common sense dictates

Ah yes, common sense, the good old fall-back discussion killing trump card and gold-paved path to malum prohibidum. To some people, it's common sense that guns are scary and bad (especially EBRs and handguns) and should be outlawed or at least registered and limited in capacity to 1 round, since anything more is excessive; those rounds should also be microstamped because firearm crime could be traced back to the gun owner as an effective and efficient way to fight violent crime. Think of the children!

In the hypothetical OP, I don't see a reason for calling the police, but possibly (is there any reason on observation to be concerned) the campus security to keep an eye on him. In all likeliness, 911 is already fielding multiple hysterical MWAG calls.

Back around '03 or '04, I got stuck in the student union building after work for an hour because a student called in MWAG on campus. My buddies and I were in a building with a wall of windows and glass doors comprising the front of the building. We were instructed to stay out of sight, so we chilled behind a reception desk area and BSed while we wondered when we would get to leave.

The police could not find anyone, but eventually the MWAG went to talk to them as he had been inside the dorms by the time the building was locked down. Turns out he had taken his paintball gun to some communications class for a paper/speech. On his walk back to the dorms around dusk, some girl thought it was a handgun, so she called 911.

I'd be more worried about a fatality occurring due to an MWAG on campus call to the police than a campus shooting event.

I've called 911 twice in my life. In both events it was for reasonable suspicion that emergency workers were needed immediately.

InkEd
March 15, 2012, 11:47 AM
Yes, I would report it. It is not normal to walk around a metropolitan area with a rifle sling over your shoulder in the United States. Furthermore, it should be carried in a bag or hardcase, if not need for possible immediate use. I support both open and concealed carry. Moreover, I support responsible gun ownership.

Sam1911
March 15, 2012, 12:00 PM
Moreover, I support responsible gun ownership.

And you're willing to enforce your opinion of what's "responsible" by having someone arrested and stripped of rights & freedoms?

Bobson
March 15, 2012, 12:14 PM
And you're willing to enforce your opinion of what's "responsible" by having someone arrested and stripped of rights & freedoms?
I'm willing to "enforce" my opinions by informing authorities of a possible crime in progress. He may or may not be arrested, but he wouldn't be stripped of any rights or freedoms (eg, he wouldn't be prosecuted) unless he had broken a law. Therefore, if he does lose any rights or freedoms, he deserved to. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse.

JustinJ
March 15, 2012, 12:17 PM
And you're willing to enforce your opinion of what's "responsible" by having someone arrested and stripped of rights & freedoms?

I don't see calling police as "enforcing" anything. The police do the enforcing, hopefully based on law. We must all operate and make decisions by what we consider reasonable. Some people, and even cultures, may believe it reasonable for a man to smack his wife. Would one be "enforcing their opinion of whats reasonable" by calling the police if they witnessed a man smack his wife in the street?

Sam1911
March 15, 2012, 12:26 PM
Therefore, if he does lose any rights or freedoms, he deserved to. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse.
Well, here we are again with what this person "deserves." I don't believe anyone "deserves" to lose their freedom and property for this unconstitutional law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse when you're charged. I have no interest in helping put someone in front of a judge because they didn't know the law -- or really for any victimless nada-crime.

Agsalaska
March 15, 2012, 12:27 PM
I cannot decide if this is a great thread or not but some of the responses are absolutely killing me. Maybe he didnt know he was breaking the law. Really? I wouldnt infringe on his rights. Really? I can think of lots of reasons he might be carrying that gun. Really? It could be a toy? Really? I wouldnt call but I might call campus security. Really? And last but not least, I would not call because I dont agree with the law. uhuh.

tacdad
March 15, 2012, 12:30 PM
Perfect scenario why concealed carry should be ALOUD on campus with a state issued permit. V-Tech would not have gone as bad if a willing citizen would have whipped out his CCW and shot the guy. End of story! It's this "protectionist" attitude that gets us and our kids killed in situations like that not the "law abiding" people who should have EVERY right to protect themselves.

"When seconds count the cops are minutes away."

Claude Clay
March 15, 2012, 12:33 PM
the scenario--well, id be weary of him but not call anyone.
id also think him not to bright to present himself openly in that manor
given the perceptions of many today. at the least--case it.

that will not change his intent, just our perception.

jimmyraythomason
March 15, 2012, 12:33 PM
I'm willing to "enforce" my opinions by informing authorities of a possible crime in progress. He may or may not be arrested, but he wouldn't be stripped of any rights or freedoms (eg, he wouldn't be prosecuted) unless he had broken a law. Therefore, if he does lose any rights or freedoms, he deserved to.You mean like this guy? A victim of a "concerned citizen".<http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=647744>

Bobson
March 15, 2012, 12:41 PM
Well, here we are again with what this person "deserves." I don't believe anyone "deserves" to lose their freedom and property for this unconstitutional law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse when you're charged. I have no interest in helping put someone in front of a judge because they didn't know the law -- or really for any victimless nada-crime.
There is no such thing as a victimless crime.

All I'm saying is if you break a law, I believe you deserve to pay the consequences for that action or omission - whichever the case may be. Isn't that belief just part of being a responsible citizen? Deliberate indifference to a crime is just as bad as committing it myself. Whether or not I agree with a particular law is irrelevant.

What was the question again? "If someone is breaking a law and putting himself (and potentially others) in danger by doing so, but you don't think its a big deal, would you pretend you didn't notice?"

Or if you prefer, "Do you have absolutely zero integrity?"

Too many responses here indicate that many would answer "yes."

Sam1911
March 15, 2012, 12:47 PM
All I'm saying is if you break a law, I believe you deserve to pay the consequences for that action or omission - whichever the case may be.
Really? Well, thank Heaven so few of us get what we deserve.

I believe if you harm someone you deserve to pay the consequences. I'm not big on the malum prohibidum stuff.

Isn't that belief just part of being a responsible citizen?I don't believe so. But I guess that's up to each to decide. I tend to see being unarmed in public as being rather a irresponsible, which would put me more in line with the guy being narc'd on, I guess.

Deliberate indifference to a crime is just as bad as committing it myself. Whether or not I agree with a particular law is irrelevant. Yikes. If that's how you feel...okay. There's no way I could possibly internalize that value system.

jimmyraythomason
March 15, 2012, 12:55 PM
In my state,it is illegal to drive in the rain without having your headlamps on. Should I report this to police if I see someone not doing this? Or not having their seatbelt on? Or riding a motorcycle without a helmet? These are,afterall,unlawful acts in my state. How sad to see just how quickly we are willing to throw our fellow citizens to the wolves.

AlaskaMan
March 15, 2012, 01:08 PM
Given the OP's claim that it was a prohibited act where it occured, yes I would call.

What do you expect the cops to do, follow the individual and wait until something might happen? Here it seems that prevention is better than the cure.

Maybe it is harmless, but you can bet that there will be a lot of calls to 9-1-1 like it or not. My calm description of a seeming innocent act will translate into a more calm response by LE. Once 20-30-40 calls come in from frantic sheep about a wolf in their midst and that poor individual will likely be proned out by a dozen police officers.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

Teachu2
March 15, 2012, 01:30 PM
Another scenario: You're working in your front yard one day, and you notice a rental van backed into your neighbor's driveway. It has no front license plate, and you can't see the rear one. You and your neighbor are friendly, and you have seen some of his collection of outstanding Walker Colts, and the 1911 his father carried in WWII and Korea. His garage door is up, and two men are removing a gun safe from the house and loading it into the van, using a pair of skateboards as a makeshift dolly. The one facing you appears to have a Glock tucked in his waistband. Both are perspiring heavily, and appear to be in a hurry.
Do you:
1) Mind your own business.
2) Assume they are engaged in interstate commerce, thus under the protection of federal law.
3) Offer them a cold drink?
4) Call your neighbor's cell phone and leave a voice message?
5) Assume they are taking the safe with the owner's permission, and get excited for him. He must be getting a new safe!
6) Suspect something criminal may be happening, but decide that the system doesn't work anyway, they'll be home by dinner, you don't agree with prison time for burglary, and besides - he's got homeowner's insurance.

JustinJ
March 15, 2012, 01:35 PM
In my state,it is illegal to drive in the rain without having your headlamps on. Should I report this to police if I see someone not doing this? Or not having their seatbelt on? Or riding a motorcycle without a helmet? These are,afterall,unlawful acts in my state. How sad to see just how quickly we are willing to throw our fellow citizens to the wolves.

Those violations you speak have never preceded a mass shooting of innocent people. Not all criminal acts are equal.

So how much of a potential threat are we supposed to ignore in the name of the second amendment? What if the guy is carrying an M60? RPG? A few grenades strapped to his chest? A nuclear suitcase bomb? Everytime somebody shoots up a group of people it certrainly doesn't help our second amendment rights.

Teachu2
March 15, 2012, 01:41 PM
One more: Your neighbor reported his wife as a missing person two days ago. Now he's at your door, asking to borrow your pickup and your chainsaw, 'cuz he feels like cutting some wood. He thinks it might rain, so he'd really appreciate using a tarp, too.

Now, be a good neighbor....

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2012, 01:48 PM
In my state,it is illegal to drive in the rain without having your headlamps on. Should I report this to police if I see someone not doing this? Or not having their seatbelt on? Or riding a motorcycle without a helmet? These are,afterall,unlawful acts in my state. How sad to see just how quickly we are willing to throw our fellow citizens to the wolves.



But, but, but....we are talking about a G. U. N. here!

(and an evil black one, too!)

jimmyraythomason
March 15, 2012, 01:50 PM
Those violations you speak have never preceded a mass shooting of innocent people. Not all criminal acts are equal.But the law is the law! Violators must be reported. Not running headlamps in the rain can lead to multicar accidents.

pockets
March 15, 2012, 02:03 PM
Or what about this: An Apache gunship hovers over you while 17 armed chimpanzees in hoodies and sunglasses pillage your neighborhood.
Oh my.....The squirrels are terrified.
Ya know, I just might call the police for that. :D

The scenario in the original post has been modified (in subsequent posts) so many times that it is no longer the original scenario.

I did enjoy this comment though;
Perfect scenario why concealed carry should be ALOUD on campus with a state issued permit.
If the schools would allow suppressors, then guns wouldn't be 'ALOUD'. ;)

.

Vintov
March 15, 2012, 02:21 PM
The old argument of ignorantia juris non excusat (ignorance of the law is not an excuse) is starting to get a bit tired when we have >10,000 federal laws (not to mention state, municipality, etc.). Short of a savant, no one is going to be able to know all of those laws. Humans aren't computers.

We need fewer laws for that to be a legitimate argument.

Teachu2
March 15, 2012, 02:27 PM
Quote:
The Second doesn't give us the right to carry in a prison, courthouse, or commercial airliner.

From Teachu2 ,we got this.I thought the Second says ,"shall not infringed", affirming our unalienable right to self defense of ourselves,our families and others in any surroundings.


Unfortunately, the courts have ruled against this argument - be a true American patriot and be the case that gets that overturned! Pick any one of those places, go affirm your right, and you'll get to see at least one of the others. Choose wisely, and you can get all three!

Guys, I'm an advocate of OC, CC, drum magazines, and mandatory firearms training in public schools. I would like less government, and vote accordingly. Heck, I've had a FFL - twice! I'm also a former LEO and recently became a lifer in NRA. But I'm also firmly grounded in the present - some of what we used to do as kids isn't allowed any more. We can organize, educate, and advocate changes in the laws - but the current laws are what we currently live with.

Nostalgia for the lifestyle we had as kids doesn't erase the societal changes since. When we were kids, "school shooting" involved a BB gun and a window.

This scenario draws attention simply because it is not normal today. Armed abnormal behavior in public will draw the attention of LE.

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2012, 02:49 PM
This scenario draws attention simply because it is not normal today. Armed abnormal behavior in public will draw the attention of LE.

Unfortunately, you seem to fail to be able to separate the "armed" from the "abnormal behavior in public".

Thank goodness, the Washington State Supreme Court does:

http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=9

Fourth, the trial court found that Casad did not carry the weapons in a manner that would warrant reasonable alarm. This factor is heavily contested by the parties, primarily based on individuals’ reactions to seeing a gun carried on a city street and whether Casad pointed one rifle barrel toward the roadway. We note that, in connection with this case, several individuals have commented that they would find it strange, maybe shocking, to see a man carrying a gun down the street in broad daylight. Casad’s appellate counsel conceded that she would personally react with shock, but she emphasized that an individual’s lack of comfort with firearms does not equate to reasonable alarm. We agree. It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm, even if this action would shock some people.

Teachu2
March 15, 2012, 02:52 PM
I understand your point, and misrepresented reality re the 2nd. The reality is that our courts have routinely upheld limiting our rights, interpreted the Constitution in ways contrary to our personal interpretations, and established case law that stands today.

Until those laws are overturned by a higher court or legislative action (including initiatives), they remain the law.

CoRoMo
March 15, 2012, 02:52 PM
Another scenario: You're working in your front yard one day, and you notice a rental van backed into your neighbor's driveway. It has no front license plate, and you can't see the rear one. You and your neighbor are friendly, and you have seen some of his collection of outstanding Walker Colts, and the 1911 his father carried in WWII and Korea. His garage door is up, and two men are removing a gun safe from the house and loading it into the van, using a pair of skateboards as a makeshift dolly. The one facing you appears to have a Glock tucked in his waistband. Both are perspiring heavily, and appear to be in a hurry.
You had me up until you stated that BOTH of the movers are sweating like pigs. I could have gotten by if only one of them was wet, neither would be my favorite, but both of them means that they are members of the Genovese crime family and that my neighbor is in a building's concrete foundation somewhere. If only one were sweating, that would mean that they are legit hired movers, my neighbor is moving out of town and the one guy's simply got influenza. Neither perspiring means that they are both priests from the local diocese picking up a donated piece of furniture, and in this case it would be a gun safe.

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2012, 02:56 PM
I was safely target shooting on my property, not much just 20 rounds from a .22 and 10 rounds from a 30-30 because coyotes have started to hang around my property. The neighbor lady from two properties down, in the opposite direction as my line of fire, came over and expressed to me that it was illegal to discharge a firearm on my property.

I told her I did not believe it to be illegal because we were in an unincorporated area of the county, but that I would check on it. When I looked it up, there is a no shooting zone within 500 yards of the shore of the lake near my property. There is an "arm" of this lake that points towards my property. From the tip of that arm to my property, measured by Google maps is 432 yards.

So she was right, I am actually 68 yards inside the no shooting zone.

Guess she should have called the Sherrif and had a citation issued against me, according to the thought process of some posters here.

Ashcons
March 15, 2012, 03:04 PM
I wouldnt call but I might call campus security. Really?

You're right, now that I reconsider it, I wouldn't. (i.e. they'd probably just call the police to deal with it)

JustinJ
March 15, 2012, 03:12 PM
Guess she should have called the Sherrif and had a citation issued against me, according to the thought process of some posters here.

Thats awfully presumptuous. I can't speak for others but i don't see much threat or likelihood of nefarious intent from a person target shooting on their own property. How you equate that to walking down a city street with a weapon condusive to mass carnage is beyond me. Given the numer of times people have gone on rampages it is quite easy to see why it is a bad idea to do the latter.

Black Duck Charlie
March 15, 2012, 03:18 PM
I would at least call the cops. When the Law states no carry on campus, then it is illegal to have any firearms of any kind on campus.

If I am required to comply with the Law, then so is everyone else.

p.s., about how it's more likely that someone with criminal intentions would not carry a firearm openly: Yes, they would. Look up how many people have openly carried a firearm into a school and/or Government building in just the past ten years. And I can recall a day when a local guy walked in to a bank with a loaded deer rifle in his hand -- and used that rifle to rob the bank. The bank is still there, but now the locals will likely call the cops when they see anyone walk down the street openly carrying a rifle -- whether on the sidewalk or not.

jimmyraythomason
March 15, 2012, 03:21 PM
i don't see much threat or likelihood of nefarious intent from a person target shooting on their own property. How you equate that to walking down a city street with a weapon The person has shown no unusual behaviour or shown any intent to do harm. He is just there,apparently just passing through. So just having the rifle in itself makes him dangerous? walking down a city street with a weapon condusive to mass carnage "con·du·cive (k n-d s v, -dy -). adj. Tending to cause or bring about." So it's the rifle that should be reported?

Loosedhorse
March 15, 2012, 03:34 PM
You live in a state that doesn't allow carry on a college campus. Do you call the cops?

Divorce your answer from obligations to report a crime in progress.
Can't divorce my answer.

This guy has either decided deliberately to disobey the law, in which case I can conclude he either has mens rea, or is prepared for arrest in the name of civil disobedience; or he is so clueless and reckless that he hasn't decided to bother with checking on state rules...so he might not have any clue on the rules of safe gun-handling either.

So, he's breaking the law. Because he's either a criminal (so arrest him), a protester willing to be arrested (so arrest him) or unbelievably negligent.

So arrest him. Doesn't mean I agree with the law; and if such carry of a long gun on campus was legal in this hypothetical state, my answer would be opposite.the OP has not returned to the threadOh, well! I have assumed the road is on campus.

JustinJ
March 15, 2012, 03:47 PM
Quote:
i don't see much threat or likelihood of nefarious intent from a person target shooting on their own property. How you equate that to walking down a city street with a weapon

The person has shown no unusual behaviour or shown any intent to do harm. He is just there,apparently just passing through. So just having the rifle in itself makes him dangerous?

Come on! carrying an AR15 over one's shoulder on a city street is simply not usual behaviour in today's society. We're not talking about Somalia. As has already been illustrated in depth by other highly suspiscous behaviours you don't have to know for a fact a person is dangerous to be justified in calling the police. If the warning signs are strong enough i'm calling the cops and they can determine if he is or isn't dangerous.

"con·du·cive (k n-d s v, -dy -). adj. Tending to cause or bring about." So it's the rifle that should be reported?

Let's not sink to silly word games. Arguing semantics and taking commonly understood phrases to be literal just to be difficult does nothing to help one's position in a debate. Its beyond obvious that i am saying the weapon enables the person to create carnage.

Teachu2
March 15, 2012, 03:49 PM
Unfortunately, you seem to fail to be able to separate the "armed" from the "abnormal behavior in public".


EXACTLY MY POINT. I have yet to find an incident where an unarmed person shot a bunch of people on a school campus.

Gotta have both armed and abnormal to get me to call the police. Merely abnormal MIGHT make it - like running naked on the freeway. Merely armed in an area where that is normal won't, but that's not the scenario here.

If you back time up 15 years, I'd have said no - I wouldn't call the cops. Unfortunately for all concerned, our world has changed since then. Our expectations of behavior have changed, making acts that were at one time commonplace now abnormal. I have to weigh my decisions with awareness of the environment, not in a vacuum.

The act of carrying a gun is like any other - there are times and circumstances where it is not appropriate. If it's REALLY innappropriate, is can be illegal to some degree. Take marriage - most everyone agrees it is OK between a man and a woman, but not a man and a 10 year old girl, or a woman and a 10 year old boy. The law is changing re 2 men or 2 women, but it's still pretty firm on one man and 2+ women...

We can argue philosophy and the Constitution forever, or we can work toward repealing laws that limit our freedoms.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 04:16 PM
Teachu2, I've yet to hear of an unarmed person shooting anybody either. Hey, they should ban guns from everybody. Unarmed people can't shoot people. Its for the safety of our kids.

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2012, 04:44 PM
How you equate that to walking down a city street with a weapon condusive to mass carnage is beyond me.

The laws of most states and Federal law consider handguns to be more "condusive to mass carnage" than AR-15s. Handguns are much more regulated than AR-15s. So, I guess you would consider a person walking down a city street with a handgun in a holster to be REALLY, REALLY dangerous then, eh?

walker944
March 15, 2012, 04:49 PM
If what he is doing is against the law...then yes, I'd call the police. If not, then leave him alone! No reason to call the police when no laws have been broken. Carrying a rifle in public is completely legal in Texas (provided municipality laws allow it). I'd hate for someone to call the police when I do private party gun purchases in Walmart, Academy & Home Depot parking lots. It may look out of the ordinary, but perfectly legal; and that's all that matters.

Teachu2
March 15, 2012, 05:10 PM
Teachu2, I've yet to hear of an unarmed person shooting anybody either. Hey, they should ban guns from everybody. Unarmed people can't shoot people. Its for the safety of our kids.

Careful - someone's liable to quote you on that!

Folks, gun laws are political. ALL laws are political. Every time some idiot exercises poor judgement with a firearm, we lose a little in our fight to keep our rights and to gain back some of what's been lost.

We could learn a lot from President Obama's 2008 campaign. I voted against him, but more voted for him. Why? Because of what he wasn't - he wasn't a Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton clone, spewing extremist views and scaring the voters. He was a calm, articulate candidate who was also African-American. He presents well, and romances voters.

When we take an extreme position (I want it ALL and I want it NOW), we doom ourselves. We get labelled extremists when we take an extreme position and refuse to even consider others.

Gun rights will be won or lost a little bit at a time. NOTHING will help our cause more than being responsible owners of firearms, and helping others do the same. NOTHING would hurt our cause more than some reporter quoting someone here IMPLYING that they wouldn't help the guvmint on laws they don't agree with - especially if some reporter can find a gun owner who saw something HIGHLY unusual before a school shooting but did nothing...

If we don't police ourselves, we throw the door to more laws wide open.

Just food for thought.

Highgate
March 15, 2012, 05:28 PM
It is not normal to walk around a metropolitan area with a rifle sling over your shoulder in the United States. Furthermore, it should be carried in a bag or hardcase, if not needed for possible immediate use.
Forget all the legal and civil rights mumbo jumbo - the above post says it all.

Suppose you saw this person walking towards your children's school or your parents' house? Forget legal niceties - I would be worried.

Whatever happened to common sense?

Loosedhorse
March 15, 2012, 05:44 PM
Suppose you saw this person walking towards your children's school or your parents' house?A slung rifle is equivalent in readiness to a holstered handgun. If I saw someone OCing a handgun (where legal to do so) and walking "toward" a school (not on school grounds), I wouldn't be worried. Same if I saw someone with a slung rifle, where legal.

Someone neither in a hunting area nor at a range who is holding a rifle at low-ready is different, just like someone holding (not wearing) a handgun.

mdauben
March 15, 2012, 06:41 PM
I walk around everyday trying to find people who are making mistakes. Then I point a finger of accusation at them and let it be known how poorly they are behaving and I highlight their mishaps for everyone to see.
Honestly, I would not call the police because I enjoy going "look! look! he's breaking the law!". I have no interest in "ruining his life" or "taking away his freedoms" just for the fun of it. :rolleyes:

I would call becuase of the (IMO) very real potential that the individual doing such an obviously illegal act is unbalanced and planning on using that gun on people. I'll accept the possibility of getting an "innocent" man in trouble with the law, when the danger, no matter how statistically low, has the potential to tragically destroy so many lives. :(

JohnBT
March 15, 2012, 07:35 PM
"Folks, gun laws are political."

We've been talking about that, here and on TFL, since the last century. Did you just get here? ;)

John

M-Cameron
March 15, 2012, 08:24 PM
from what ive seen, when it comes to firearms.....people go out of their way to defend actions they wouldnt normally defend.......allow me to explain.

i think everyone here is in agreement that a firearm is a tool.......correct?......so let me put OPs question in a different context.


what if you saw a guy walking around a college campus with a machete, where large blades are illegal to own and carry?......just walking around with it in his hands, not acting particularly abnormal, except for his machete(and no, he doesnt work for buildings and grounds as far as you can tell).........would you call the police?

the same concept applies to firearms.......

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 08:40 PM
How about if you see underage college kids drinking. Its against the law. And the law is the law whether you agree with it or not according to one guy on here. He may drive drunk later.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 08:42 PM
Do you call the police for that?

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2012, 08:53 PM
Tell you what.... some of you guys would mess in your pants in Washington State....stay away from our Capitol grounds, never know who you might run into!

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?89906-Pics-from-the-2A-rally-on-4-30-11-%28Warning-lotsa-pics!%29

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/pooshark123/DSC02566.jpg

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/pooshark123/DSC02568.jpg

It's just not so weird in Washington State.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 08:57 PM
You are breaking countless laws navy. I'm emailing your governor.

BSA1
March 15, 2012, 08:58 PM
Yes, I would report it. It is not normal to walk around a metropolitan area with a rifle sling over your shoulder in the United States. Furthermore, it should be carried in a bag or hardcase, if not need for possible immediate use. I support both open and concealed carry. Moreover, I support responsible gun ownership.

Just so I am clear on your position.

You will report someone carrying a unloaded gun in plain view on campus.

You will NOT report the same individual carrying the same gun as long as it is in a case bag.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 09:03 PM
Bsa, he's not talking about a campus in that quote.

M-Cameron
March 15, 2012, 09:07 PM
Tell you what.... some of you guys would mess in your pants in Washington State....stay away from our Capitol grounds, never know who you might run into!


yes.....you are OCing in a place that does not prohibit OC....im also willing to bet the police knew about your event and knew expect OCers.......nothing to worry about.

this has nothing to do with whether people should OC a rifle........

it has to do with OCing a rifle in a place that prohibits firearms........

you all had your guns that day.......tell me, would you guys have walked into a federal building/ post office/ bank/ect. with your guns?...........im going to guess not, because you are most likely law abiding citizens.......

when someone blatantly and openly breaks a law that will likely land them in all sorts of trouble......it makes me question what it is they are planning that they dont mind the consequences....and what other laws they plan on blatantly breaking......

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2012, 09:26 PM
tell me, would you guys have walked into a federal building/ post office/ bank/ect. with your guns?...........im going to guess not, because you are most likely law abiding citizens.......

when someone blatantly and openly breaks a law that will likely land them in all sorts of trouble......it makes me question what it is they are planning that they dont mind the consequences....and what other laws they plan on blatantly breaking......

Banks, yes. We carry our guns in banks all the time in Washington. We carry our guns on school grounds when we are picking up or dropping off our kids. Now, if you were visiting Washington you might be tempted to call the police if you saw one of us in a bank or on school grounds, and the police should, if they are screening their calls properly, politely inform you that it is legal to carry a gun in a bank in WA and on school grounds, under certain conditions, in WA.

If I see someone who is more likely than not innocently breaking the law due to ignorance or a brain fart, I'm not going to go tattling to the government about them. I will politely let them know that they might not want to do that action because they could get arrested. Just like the neighbor who let me know it was illegal to shoot on my own property.

AND the fact is, I just don't get all worked up over someone carrying a rifle slung on their back on a college campus unless they are somehow acting weird....and to me engaging in an activity that is protected by the US Constitution is not acting weird.

M-Cameron
March 15, 2012, 09:35 PM
If I see someone who is more likely than not innocently breaking the law due to ignorance or a brain fart, I'm not going to go tattling to the government about them. I will politely let them know that they might not want to do that action because they could get arrested. Just like the neighbor who let me know it was illegal to shoot on my own property.

you see, i dont buy the "ignorance or forgetfulness" argument.......

the kinds of people who OC firearms are the type of people who scoured the laws and know precisely what they are doing and the legalities of their actions.......that throws the ignorance argument out the window.

as for forgetfulness.......you expect me to believe that you forgot about that 8lb rifle hanging off your back?.........im sorry, i dont buy it.

M-Cameron
March 15, 2012, 09:41 PM
M-Cameron,only 2 states Montana and North Carolina and laws against carry in banks.Just 2.


that is hardly the point i was trying to make......and you know it.......i havent checked the laws for all 50 states, so i simply listed common places where firearms arent allowed.........please stop trying to find tiny indescrepencies and focus on the main argument at hand.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 09:49 PM
Common places where firearms aren't allowed does not include banks though. This is what the entire thread is about. People thinking other people are breaking the law by carrying when in fact it isn't the case. You just helped our argument by that comment.

tazbigdog
March 15, 2012, 09:49 PM
Better to be safe than sorry. Let the cops do their job. Besides if you did nothing and something did happened and you couldn't live with yourself.

Brockak47
March 15, 2012, 09:50 PM
Why wouldn't you call the police is a better question I think.

No one needs to walk around with an AR15 strapped to their back in public, legal or not. That's just asking for trouble...Especially on or near a school campus.

(unless of course it's the end of the world & zombies are out!)

M-Cameron
March 15, 2012, 09:52 PM
Common places where firearms aren't allowed does not include banks though. This is what the entire thread is about. People thinking other people are breaking the law by carrying when in fact it isn't the case. You just helped our argument by that comment.

READ THE OPs SCENARIO..........for the sake of this thread, it is assumed that the person was carrying a rifle in a prohibited zone.........

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 09:56 PM
M-cameron, I'm with you on the op. Others have made it into more, which is what my points are directed towards. Like brockak47 just posted. He would call the police whether it was against the law or legal where a long gun was being carried.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 10:20 PM
And several more are echoing very similar things. In other words, they would be perfectly fine if open carry was made illegal.

imac98374
March 15, 2012, 11:02 PM
The laws of most states and Federal law consider handguns to be more "condusive to mass carnage" than AR-15s. Handguns are much more regulated than AR-15s. So, I guess you would consider a person walking down a city street with a handgun in a holster to be REALLY, REALLY dangerous then, eh?


I think that the reason that handguns are more tightly regulated is because they are more easily concealed, thereby allowing a would be criminal to come in "under the radar." The man AR on the other hand is pretty conspicuous, and I think that that is the point.

I am pro second amendment, pro AR-15, and went to a large state school in a fairly gun-friendly state. If I saw someone with an AR on his back walking through campus, I would absolutely call the police. The reason that the AR is less tightly regulated is because if someone is carrying one in an inappropriate place, it should be fairly obvious and it is expected that the LEOs will be called.

fallout mike
March 15, 2012, 11:08 PM
Imac, you literally made no sense. Its not regulated bc its just expected to be called into the police. How can a person come up with something like that?

exavid
March 16, 2012, 01:22 AM
I wouldn't call the police because it's not illegal to carry a weapon on a college or university campus in Oregon. With some restrictions in the larger cities in the North end of the state open carry is perfectly legal as well. If you have a concealed permit open carry is legal in those cities too. The universities and colleges tried to change the law recently but were rebuffed by the courts. They are currently trying to make an end run around the law by saying anyone who has business with the college can't carry, i.e. employees, contractors hired by, people with season tickets to games and such can't carry but others who have no business links to the schools can carry on campus. It will be interesting to see how this attempt holds up in court.

KenW.
March 16, 2012, 01:31 AM
I used to work as a patrolman for a university PD and had a call like mentioned in the OP. Turned out to be a member of the ROTC honor gaurd with an inert M-1.

fiftybmg
March 16, 2012, 02:10 AM
Your perspective is typical of those who walk about unarmed, with no means of self-defence, relying on others to defend you if necessary. People who practice the right to self-defence are not intimidated by the sight of arms, and respect anyone's right to bear the same.

Familiarity with weapons, their purpose and application, gives some insight into the apparent motives of their display. AR15 slung over the back - open to interpretation, according to circumstance and location. Maybe the guy was walking down the block from home to a shooting range. Or on his way to rob a bank.

As a non-self-defence practitioner, you will be alarmed by the sight of any weapon, including a knife on a belt sheath. As the Californians I read about who wrote a letter to their local paper, in late nineties, expressing shock and horror by the people in Arizona openly displaying weapons on their belt while in the grocery store. I suppose if they were in Oakland, the SWAT teams would have been deployed, but in Arizona, it was just regular people buying groceries.

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2012, 07:52 AM
I am pro second amendment, pro AR-15, and went to a large state school in a fairly gun-friendly state. If I saw someone with an AR on his back walking through campus, I would absolutely call the police. The reason that the AR is less tightly regulated is because if someone is carrying one in an inappropriate place, it should be fairly obvious and it is expected that the LEOs will be called.

And that is why I would NOT call the police. Until ALL criminals starting finding certain places as inappropriate to commit crimes in, then I do not feel that there are any inappropriate places for persons to be able to defend themselves against those criminals. The actions described in the OP may be illegal, yes; but inappropriate for any reason other than an inappropriate law prohibiting it? No.

JustinJ
March 16, 2012, 08:28 AM
I think that the reason that handguns are more tightly regulated is because they are more easily concealed, thereby allowing a would be criminal to come in "under the radar." The man AR on the other hand is pretty conspicuous, and I think that that is the point.

That is the point. Handguns are more tightly regulated because its easier for a person with nefarious intentions to conceal one before comitting a crime. Long rifles are less regulated because its easier for people to see them coming. Ya know, and call the police. The logical conclusion is not then to ignore rifles in questionable situations.

Nicky Santoro
March 16, 2012, 08:41 AM
Would you call the cops?

No. Some of you people should move here to New Jersey. You'd fit right in.

Tipro
March 16, 2012, 08:46 AM
Your perspective is typical of those who walk about unarmed, with no means of self-defence, relying on others to defend you if necessary. People who practice the right to self-defence are not intimidated by the sight of arms, and respect anyone's right to bear the same.

Familiarity with weapons, their purpose and application, gives some insight into the apparent motives of their display. AR15 slung over the back - open to interpretation, according to circumstance and location. Maybe the guy was walking down the block from home to a shooting range. Or on his way to rob a bank.

As a non-self-defence practitioner, you will be alarmed by the sight of any weapon, including a knife on a belt sheath. As the Californians I read about who wrote a letter to their local paper, in late nineties, expressing shock and horror by the people in Arizona openly displaying weapons on their belt while in the grocery store. I suppose if they were in Oakland, the SWAT teams would have been deployed, but in Arizona, it was just regular people buying groceries.

As stated, I would call the cops.

It's not that the mere sight of a weapon makes me, or anyone else here, pee their pants.

It's not that I want open carry to be illegal (I haven't read every post, or remembered every one I did read, so some people may actually want OC to be illegal). As clearly stated in the opening thread, I would want legal carry (CC or OC) on a college campus.

Learning self defense tactics has very little to do with it. From a distance (as clearly stated in the opening post), there is almost no way you could take down that man if it was necessary, assuming you were following the law and not carrying on that college campus. The only self-defense tactic you could need is the ability to run away fast and stay hidden, at which point you have conceded that this man is a threat, and you should be calling the cops in respect of another's peoples right to be safe. I only hope your hubris doesn't get you killed one day (or, since it seems you go armed everywhere, I hope you don't walk by me on a college campus with your weapon showing, b/c you know what I'll be doing!)

To those who attempt to say that I should be calling the cops on everyone with a bag. Yes, many people may be bringing weapons on campus in a concealed manner. However, its unreasonable to think that everyone with a bag on a school campus (remember those things, book bags? They generally carry books) is carrying a gun. I tried in the scenario to make it very clear this man was carrying a real gun, and tried to leave no room for doubt by making it OC. To those who say he was ROTC, at my college, the ROTC used m1 variants, and everyone here can recognize an AR 15.

To those who think this involves some meta question of 2A rights, you're wrong. Heller, in its ratio decidendi (I know fancy latin too!) ruled that prohibitions on carry on a school campus were OK.

To me, it boils down very neatly. In the opening thread I gave those looking for an opportunity to say "well he's not doing anything wrong in and of itself" (malum prohibitum vs. malum in se) lots of good ammo: i.e., "he's not doing anything," "just walking down the street," "He's not alarming," and I can understand the position of those who don't think some guys life should be "ruined b/c I was scared of his gun." After all, many of us have probably inadvertently (or knowingly) broken some gun law at one point or another.

However, to all those who wouldn't call, I hope that this scenario never presents itself to you. The potential price to be prevented far outweighs any inconvenience to this one man, especially when considering all the factors. As gun owners we have a responsibility ("with great power, comes great responsibility" :evil:) to act in a manner befitting our exercise of that right. For example, when carrying a gun we have a duty (at least a moral one, in my opinion) to deescalate threats, and to not respond to insults or egging on. The man in this scenario has the duty not to carry in illegal and sensitive areas - V Tech was not that long ago, and there were over 50 casualties, with 32 dead. How would you feel if you had seen the V-Tech shooter with his Walter P22 and Glock 19, who, before the shooting, was just walking around campus, not doing anything crazy, and had not called the cops? Could you live with yourself? Would you really rather have people die than report a violation of a law you don't agree with? I know, I know, you don't think this guy is going to shoot anybody. But given his lack of respect for sensitive areas and criminal law (yes, everyone knows you cannot carry on a college campus. Everyone), I'm not willing to take that risk.

I fully understand that this man may not be out to kill someone, and it would be regrettable if he had no criminal intent, and yet had his gun rights taken away. That doesn't add up enough though, given recent history and the scenario, for me to just walk on by. It's this kind of thinking that got me kicked out of my libertarian club in college; I guess things haven't changed. They were mad that I didn't support repeal of drunk driving laws, b/c a drunk driver hasn't actually hurt anyone!

imac98374
March 16, 2012, 08:55 AM
And that is why I would NOT call the police. Until ALL criminals starting finding certain places as inappropriate to commit crimes in, then I do not feel that there are any inappropriate places for persons to be able to defend themselves against those criminals. The actions described in the OP may be illegal, yes; but inappropriate for any reason other than an inappropriate law prohibiting it? No.

I don't know if I would consider an ar15 to be an appropriate defensive weapon on a college campus. Honestly, I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where an ar-15 is the right choice for a person in a public place in a civilian capacity.

Shytheed Dumas
March 16, 2012, 09:09 AM
In a really weird coincidence, Fox News channel just reported a minute ago that an individual was seen on the campus of an upstate New York campus (RIT - Rochester) with a rifle. It has already made national news and the college is on shelter-in-place lock down. Somebody, and possibly many, people made many calls very quickly, which seems to moot this entire discussion.

Gtimothy
March 16, 2012, 09:14 AM
Another scenario: You're working in your front yard one day, and you notice a rental van backed into your neighbor's driveway. It has no front license plate, and you can't see the rear one. You and your neighbor are friendly, and you have seen some of his collection of outstanding Walker Colts, and the 1911 his father carried in WWII and Korea. His garage door is up, and two men are removing a gun safe from the house and loading it into the van, using a pair of skateboards as a makeshift dolly. The one facing you appears to have a Glock tucked in his waistband. Both are perspiring heavily, and appear to be in a hurry.
Do you:
1) Mind your own business.
2) Assume they are engaged in interstate commerce, thus under the protection of federal law.
3) Offer them a cold drink?
4) Call your neighbor's cell phone and leave a voice message?
5) Assume they are taking the safe with the owner's permission, and get excited for him. He must be getting a new safe!
6) Suspect something criminal may be happening, but decide that the system doesn't work anyway, they'll be home by dinner, you don't agree with prison time for burglary, and besides - he's got homeowner's insurance.
You gave more information in your scenario than the OP did in his! If I had that much information about the guy walking down the street, such as reloading a mag and pointing it carelessly or firing it off into the air...Yeah I'd call the cops! Here in Florida we don't have licence plates on the front of our vehicles so that isn't even a suspicious thing. But in your scenario, there is enough to make a much more informed conclusion. I'd call the cops on these guys in a NY minute! Probably let them know that I had called the cops and the homeowner as well....from a safe distance with my weapon at the ready, not drawn. Like comparing apples to turnips.

Highgate
March 16, 2012, 09:17 AM
Honestly, I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where an ar-15 is the right choice for a person in a public place in a civilian capacity.
Agreed.

99.9999% of Europeans would regard this whole conversation with incredulity.

To almost all Europeans it is TOTALLY INCONCEIVABLE that anyone would want or need to walk around anywhere in public with a uncased rifle strapped to their back.

Forget the legal rights etc you have in the USA which might make it technically legal - socially I would think it very impolite at best to carry a rifle around anywhere in public in this way. What point are you trying to make? "Hey I'm a big man. I know my rights." What about all those people you scare whilst walking around like Rambo?

In the UK it's difficult enough carrying a cased weapon around. You get some VERY funny looks. And if I took a cased weapon into McDonalds or similar I would probably be arrested.

(We have to keep weapons in transit in our cars, hidden, when we take breaks - and preferably locked down).

I think that the more restrictive UK approach is fairer on the general public.

zxcvbob
March 16, 2012, 09:26 AM
However, to all those who wouldn't call, I hope that this scenario never presents itself to you. The potential price to be prevented far outweighs any inconvenience to this one man, especially when considering all the factors. As gun owners we have a responsibility ("with great power, comes great responsibility" ) to act in a manner befitting our exercise of that right. For example, when carrying a gun we have a duty (at least a moral one, in my opinion) to deescalate threats, and to not respond to insults or egging on. The man in this scenario has the duty not to carry in illegal and sensitive areas - V Tech was not that long ago, and there were over 50 casualties, with 32 dead. How would you feel if you had seen the V-Tech shooter with his Walter P22 and Glock 19, who, before the shooting, was just walking around campus, not doing anything crazy, and had not called the cops? Could you live with yourself? Would you really rather have people die than report a violation of a law you don't agree with? I know, I know, you don't think this guy is going to shoot anybody. But given his lack of respect for sensitive areas and criminal law (yes, everyone knows you cannot carry on a college campus. Everyone), I'm not willing to take that risk.

Like the Westpoint graduate (I assume he was retired military) who let his CCW peek out from under his shirt at a Costco in Los Vegas? Somebody called in a "MWAG!!" and they evacuated the store -- LVMPD shot him as he exited the store (shooting into a crowd of people?) and then waited until he was good and dead before make any attempt to render aid. It was a good shoot, of course. In Los Vegas, they are always ruled to be justified. The whole investigation was just a character assassination of the victim.

I wouldn't want that on my conscience either.

fallout mike
March 16, 2012, 09:26 AM
So tipro, I once again ask, do you call the cops when you see underage college kids drinking? Its against the law. And deaths attributed to DUI is a little more than murder.

jimmyraythomason
March 16, 2012, 09:34 AM
FOX news just reported that the MWAG on the New York college campus was in fact a man carrying an umbrella with a Samarai sword handle. A lot of wet pants over that.

Shytheed Dumas
March 16, 2012, 09:36 AM
...and the Rochester incident has already been resolved as an individual carrying an umbrella with a samarai sword handle. I think this only goes to show that somebody will call within seconds if someone is seen on campus with a gun, legally or not. College campuses are heavily populated for most of the day.

Tipro
March 16, 2012, 09:39 AM
So tipro, I once again ask, do you call the cops when you see underage college kids drinking? Its against the law. And deaths attributed to DUI is a little more than murder.

Sorry, would have responded above if I had seen it. And I would phone the police once they got into the driver's seat. I see your point though, and have trouble elucidating the distinction between the act of just drinking, and just walking with a gun. But rephrasing it will help.

Would I call the police if I knew that my neighbors were out of town and their teenage son and his girlfriend were over there drinking, and that she was spending the night? (Don't know how I would know this, but it's hypothetical). No I wouldn't. Would I call the police if he had one beer at 18 years old and drove his girlfriend to dinner? Probably not. If he had finished a bottle of vodka before driving? Definitely.

It's close to how I would handle the hypothetical posed at the start. Would I call the cops if I saw a man walking down a country road with his rifle? Certainly not. My wife's family lives in the country, and they and all their neighbors go hunting all the time. I unfortunately cannot live out there right now, but would if I could (I actually like my in laws - well, some one them). My wife's 11 year old cousin just killed his first rabbit and called us "city folk" to brag about it.

Anyways, would I call if I saw the man in the hypothetical walking down the city street with a rifle? No, unless there was something else alarming. If I saw a man with a rifle walking through a college campus? Yes.

imac98374
March 16, 2012, 09:39 AM
So tipro, I once again ask, do you call the cops when you see underage college kids drinking? Its against the law. And deaths attributed to DUI is a little more than murder.

Not everyone on a college campus attends the school, and not all college kids are under 21. Everybody OCing a rifle has a rifle.

Not everyone who is drinking is going to drive home. One of the nicest parts about drinking in college was that there was always someplace to sleep within walking distance it seemed.

JustinJ
March 16, 2012, 09:40 AM
Like the Westpoint graduate (I assume he was retired military) who let his CCW peek out from under his shirt at a Costco in Los Vegas? Somebody called in a "MWAG!!" and they evacuated the store -- LVMPD shot him as he exited the store (shooting into a crowd of people?) and then waited until he was good and dead before make any attempt to render aid. It was a good shoot, of course. In Los Vegas, they are always ruled to be justified. The whole investigation was just a character assassination of the victim.

I guess it depends on who you believe but numerous witnesses reported that he was acting strange, refused to comply and drew his gun. If i called the police on our hypothecial AR carrier and he acted that way my conscience would be clean.

fallout mike
March 16, 2012, 09:43 AM
Highgate, the more restrictive gun laws in england is only fairer to the criminals. But hey, at least yall fit in more socially.

fallout mike
March 16, 2012, 09:47 AM
How do yall know they won't drive after drinking? I've had 5 friends murdered at the hands of drunk drivers in 5 separate accidents. It happens quite a bit.

fallout mike
March 16, 2012, 09:52 AM
Tipro, we mostly agree with your op. Several people has turned it into more and that is what we are arguing. Some say they would call no matter the location and whether legal or not. Some say the law is the law and needs to be reported if broken whether you agree or not.

Ashcons
March 16, 2012, 09:55 AM
Dang, I was just about to post about the MWAU call to the police at Rochester :)

Grey_Mana
March 16, 2012, 10:07 AM
Would I sue you, and successfully demand your expulsion from school, for making false and/or misleading statements to the police about me? Yes. If I'm not breaking the law, and your actions could reasonably have been anticipated to cause a violation of my civil rights, the police lawyer is going to throw you under the bus.

JustinJ
March 16, 2012, 10:12 AM
Would I sue you, and successfully demand your expulsion from school, for making false and/or misleading statements to the police about me? Yes. If I'm not breaking the law, and your actions could reasonably have been anticipated to cause a violation of my civil rights, the police lawyer is going to throw you under the bus.

Good luck with that one. If there you are walking down a street with an AR15 and a person calls the police and says "there is a man walking down the street an an AR15" you may have a little trouble convincing a judge or jury false or misleading statements were made about you. Why? Because they weren't!

fallout mike
March 16, 2012, 10:17 AM
If open carry is legal , then why would he be before a judge and jury for walking down the street with a AR?

imac98374
March 16, 2012, 10:20 AM
How do yall know they won't drive after drinking? I've had 5 friends murdered at the hands of drunk drivers in 5 separate accidents. It happens quite a bit.

Lots of people drink, not many people OC an AR on campus. More importantly though, the number of people who drink is much higher than the number of people who DUI.

Do you stop the drinker? No, it's something that people habitually do recreationally, and with the obvious exceptions, something that most do with a reasonable degree of safety.

Do you stop the guy carrying the AR through campus? Yes, because nobody does it (because there is no obvious motivation for doing it.)

As someone already said though, it really doesn't matter a whole lot whether you would call or not, because almost everybody else would call. And whether the police get n calls or n+1 calls, the outcome is the same.

Highgate
March 16, 2012, 10:52 AM
Highgate, the more restrictive gun laws in england is only fairer to the criminals. But hey, at least yall fit in more socially.
Hmm - is it fairer on society to allow a very free access to firearms which then permits drunks, angry spouses, children and fools to kill innocent people?

I found this on the web - could be accurate:

Number of Murders, United States, 2009: 15,241

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2009: 9,146

Number of Murders, Britain, 2008*: 648
(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,240 US murders)

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2008* 39
(equivalent to 195 US murders)


A statistician might disagree, but I would take this data to suggest that easier access to firearms increases the murder rate very significantly.

Neverwinter
March 16, 2012, 11:07 AM
A statistician might disagree, but I would take this data to suggest that easier access to firearms increases the murder rate very significantly.
:screwy:

The statistician is right.


If open carry is legal , then why would he be before a judge and jury for walking down the street with a AR?
Heller said it's not an unrestricted right, so there can be specific areas where open carry is illegal.

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CoRoMo
March 16, 2012, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by mdauben
...the individual doing such an obviously illegal act is unbalanced and planning on using that gun on people.
Dang, the assumptions.

Obviously illegal? No. In my state, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING illegal about this act; college campus or not. To the vast majority of the American public, there's nothing obvious about it at all, as they don't know every letter of every law.

As far as your drive-by diagnosis that he's mentally unstable and certainly on his way to a mass murder... jeez. All that came to mind when I read that, really, was this line from Al Shapton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2jze-08Vx-A#t=172s
That is frightening. Can you imagine, just walking up and down the street, knowing that 90% of the people you pass has a deadly weapon and you could be their next target?
He was also discussing the right to carry a firearm. He was also assuming that a person carrying a firearm is, by default, up to no good.

fallout mike
March 16, 2012, 12:04 PM
Highgate, according to statistics you are twice as likely being the victim of a knife crime in england than being the victim of a gun crime in the US. Banning guns did not help your violent crime rate. It merely changed some peoples means of carrying them out. But according to you it helped your social status or something.

buck460XVR
March 16, 2012, 01:02 PM
I am not going to promote or assist in enforcing this malum prohibidum nonsense

So...let me get this straight: 80 million gun owners vs. a statistically insignificant number of folks who commit mass murder. But you see a guy with a rifle and you're more comfortable assuming that he's one of the handful of whackos, not one of the millions upon millions of good guys? Even given his less common choice to travel from point A to point B with his rifle slung instead of slipped into a cloth bag, I can't see the logic.



The scenario in the OP has absolutely nuttin' to do with the 80 million responsible law abiding gun owners. Where I live open carry is legal. I see tons of folks carrying rifles all the time. I have yet to assume any of them are wacko's. Those are your words. BUT.........when I see someone openly doing something blatantly illegal( as per the OP) I tend to think they ain't right. Do I report every speeder I see? "ell no, but if I see someone continuously driving thru a school zone @ 100 mph, you can be dang sure someone is going to get a call. Am I being a scardy cat for calling in something that is an obvious illegal gun activity? No, being a scardy cat is the one that drives on and does nuttin' but lock themselves in their room. The scardy cat is the one who is afraid to call it in for fear they may loose some kind of gun rights. Those are the folks who are the most dangerous. Their selfishness leads them to disregard potential harm to others for fear it may lead an inconvenience to them. Anyone openly carrying a banned weapon on a campus is not there for doing anything good. If it is a prop for the drill team, I assure you the security involved, the person with the prop, and all the parents of the students at that University will have no problem with the error on the side of safety. The true disheartening thing here is that so many wave the flag and beat the drum when it comes to the second amendment, but want to ignore the rest of the constitution that applies to the implementation of laws, our judicial system and the rights of others. You can't have it both ways...just because "you don't agree". To ignore and to allow illegal activities is condoning it. By condoning it one is promoting it. Sad that so much of this goes on here @ THR, especially when it's by those in a position of power.

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2012, 01:15 PM
Anyone openly carrying a banned weapon on a campus is not there for doing anything good. If it is a prop for the drill team, I assure you the security involved, the person with the prop, and all the parents of the students at that University will have no problem with the error on the side of safety. The true disheartening thing here is that so many wave the flag and beat the drum when it comes to the second amendment, but want to ignore the rest of the constitution that applies to the implementation of laws, our judicial system and the rights of others. You can't have it both ways...just because "you don't agree". To ignore and to allow illegal activities is condoning it. By condoning it one is promoting it. Sad that so much of this goes on here @ THR, especially when it's by those in a position of power.

Why do we put more importance on some laws than others? If it is so importanct to call the police when you see someone breaking a law, then you should be calling the police everytime someone passes you in the left lane when you are doing the speed limit in the right lane. Would should call the police every time you see someone roll through a stop sign. You should call the police everytime you buy something on the internet from out of state and don't pay the required use tax on it (every state that has a sales tax also has an equivelent use tax) and turn yourself in.

People turn a blind eye to other people breaking laws every single day and most break laws themselves quite frequently, to be honest including myself. I guarantee we all turn a blind eye toward someone breaking a law every day if we drive more than a few blocks to work.

So, I guess this particular law of not carrying a firearm on a university campus is special to some people and more important to report than the other laws - mostly because it is a "a weapon condusive to mass carnage " and, OMG!, a school campus. Sounds like stuff coming straight out of the Brady Campaign to me.

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2012, 01:23 PM
Let's say you are at your next door neighbor's house for a BBQ, and he brings out an evil black AR-15 rifle, bolt open, unloaded, not pointed at anybody. And he says, "Man, check this out! I went to my son's house for my birthday and this is what he gave me for a birthday present!"

You know his son lives in Oklahoma and you and next door neighbor live in Texas. "Hey, ummm...Bob...did you get that rifle transferred to you by an FFL?" Bob, "What?!? Hell no, he's my son, he just gave it to me for my birthday, what the hell are you talking about, Fred?"

Are you going to call the cops?

Or, how about this.... what if the person carrying the evil black AR-15 slung over their shoulder on the college campus where it is illegal was a person you knew and you knew they must be making a mistake and not purposely violating the law? Oh I know...none of you know someone who would do something that stupid, right? Like that guy that was target shooting on his own property and didn't know he was 62 yards inside a no shooting zone.

buck460XVR
March 16, 2012, 03:23 PM
People turn a blind eye to other people breaking laws every single day and most break laws themselves quite frequently, to be honest including myself.
....and that makes it right? Is it a badge of honor to you that you break laws "quite frequently" and that folks turn a blind eye to it? Wow.........

There's a lot of difference between someone driving a few miles over the speed limit and someone openly carrying a weapon where it is banned. That's why there's a difference in penalties.....duh. Most states have a degree of tolerance when it comes to absolute speed, but guns on school grounds and on campuses where they are banned are "zero" tolerance.

So, I guess this particular law of not carrying a firearm on a university campus is special to some people and more important to report than the other laws - mostly because it is a "a weapon condusive to mass carnage " and, OMG!, a school campus. Sounds like stuff coming straight out of the Brady Campaign to me.


Again, not only in my eyes, but in the eyes of the law. As for the EBR and the "weapon conducive(with a c, not a s) to mass carnage" wordage, again, those are your words. Since you are directing your statement at me, look at my posts. No where did I make any mention of the type of firearm or it's potential for harm. The firearm itself had no bearing on my reaction to the situation in the OP. It had to do with the scenario given. Unlike what so many of you are trying to suggest, it's not the firearm that is scarey, it's the situation and the unknown. Remember, this was a hypothetical scenario, and all of us have a different vision in our mind of what the OP is trying to portray.








Let's say you are at your next door neighbor's house for a BBQ, and he brings out an evil black AR-15 rifle, bolt open, unloaded, not pointed at anybody. And he says, "Man, check this out! I went to my son's house for my birthday and this is what he gave me for a birthday present!"

You know his son lives in Oklahoma and you and next door neighbor live in Texas. "Hey, ummm...Bob...did you get that rifle transferred to you by an FFL?" Bob, "What?!? Hell no, he's my son, he just gave it to me for my birthday, what the hell are you talking about, Fred?"

Are you going to call the cops?

Or, how about this.... what if the person carrying the evil black AR-15 slung over their shoulder on the college campus where it is illegal was a person you knew and you knew they must be making a mistake and not purposely violating the law? Oh I know...none of you know someone who would do something that stupid, right?

Those scenarios have a known conclusion as compared to the scenario given in the OP. One must live in reality. One also has to use reasonable judgement. If your friend is carrying a banned weapon somewhere, and you know it's a simple mistake, you would tell him and hope no one else saw him. His intent was not mass destruction. YOU KNOW THAT FOR CERTAIN! But ASSUMING a perfect stranger is making a simple mistake, when they are carrying a banned firearm in a area where those wanting to make a name for themselves are known to frequently commit horrendous crimes is not reality nor is it reasonable judgement. As I said before, I too am looking forward to the day when all students can legally carry to protect themselves while on any campus. But on campuses where firearms are still banned, those same students are in a huge disadvantage to even one person carrying one firearm with the intent to do harm to them. Realistically, being responsible and finding out what the unknown is as defined in the OP is the answer. Unlike ignoring someone neglecting to clean up behind their dog, turning a "blind eye" to such a situation as given in the OP is only asking for something terrible to happen.

AlaskaMan
March 16, 2012, 04:05 PM
^^^^+1

Well said!

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2012, 04:45 PM
So what you are saying, buck460XVR, is it is all about the presence of a gun in a certain location, even though the person carrying it is exhibiting no other suspicious behavior at all? There is much, much greater chance that the person has no ill intention whatsoever and for whatever reason has innocently crossed an arbitrary line drawn in the sand into illegal territory. Yet you will be quick to call the cops and make this guy a felon, while exhibiting no signs of bad intentions, because the inanimate object being carried in a safe manner, which is commonly carried in that manner in many other locations, just happens to be a gun.

Where have I heard that kind of reaction before....

Oh well.... we don't have such problems in Washington state, thank goodness. The guy in question would be breaking no laws, let alone committing a felony. Seems like maybe we have an over abundance of common sense in our state.

JustinJ
March 16, 2012, 04:50 PM
Why do we put more importance on some laws than others? If it is so importanct to call the police when you see someone breaking a law, then you should be calling the police everytime someone passes you in the left lane when you are doing the speed limit in the right lane. Would should call the police every time you see someone roll through a stop sign. You should call the police everytime you buy something on the internet from out of state and don't pay the required use tax on it (every state that has a sales tax also has an equivelent use tax) and turn yourself in.

Unless you would fail to call the police if witnessing a person being murdered or raped i'm sure you can figure out the answer as to why we don't call for all laws being violated.

Neverwinter
March 16, 2012, 06:27 PM
Those scenarios have a known conclusion as compared to the scenario given in the OP. One must live in reality. One also has to use reasonable judgement.
That was the point of framing those examples. The provided example of the op doesn't support the preferred conclusion, so ones of significantly different nature had to be provided.

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NavyLCDR
March 16, 2012, 09:15 PM
So, here's a serious question for the "call the cops" crowd:

You are waiting in line at the US Post Office and a man walks through the door and gets in line with a handgun in a holster on his belt. Do you call the police?

M-Cameron
March 16, 2012, 10:28 PM
You are waiting in line at the US Post Office and a man walks through the door and gets in line with a handgun in a holster on his belt. Do you call the police?


honestly.....probably not........as i could actually buy someone claiming they forgot about their sidearm.



if he came through the door with a rifle........then yes, absolutely i would call the police.....a rifle slung over your shoulder is not something you forget about, so carrying it anywhere is 100% intentional.

NavyLCDR
March 17, 2012, 12:38 AM
if he came through the door with a rifle........then yes, absolutely i would call the police.....a rifle slung over your shoulder is not something you forget about, so carrying it anywhere is 100% intentional.

Then how would you feel if he got to the counter and said to the clerk, "I need to mail this to the manufacturer...do you have any kind of box it will fit in?"

All perfectly legal at that point.

It seems to me like we are acting exactly the way the Brady Campaign wants us to.... we are reacting to inanimate objects rather than the behaviors of the person. Walking with a rifle slung on the shoulder, absent any other indications presented by the person carrying it such as furtive looking around, fidgeting, walking briskly with head lowered, etc... just doesn't warrant alarm, IMHO, even though it may cause some people to wet their pants, regardless of where the person happens to be carrying the rifle slung on the shoulder. Luckily, that is the way my state's Supreme Court has ruled as well. I am certainly thankful I live here in Washington state!

AlaskaMan
March 17, 2012, 12:43 AM
No, because the local cops can't enforce the Code of Federal Regulations.

And besides, the postal employees probably have him outgunned anyway.:neener:

lobo9er
March 17, 2012, 10:12 AM
Would anyone here ask him any questions or say hello if he was in talking distances, B4 calling the fuzz?

BSA1
March 17, 2012, 10:19 AM
I wonder how many realize this is a politicial post designed to gauge our fear of black, assault, AR-15 type rifles. This is a clever attempt by the liberals to convince the public of the danger our children face from guns at school.

Think about this for minute. There are thousands of schools in this country. How many real/attempted random shootings have taken place? Shootings where a specific victim was choosen doesn't count as well as a gun found in a locker or backpack.

Think about how many laws have been passed to "protect" the children. Some schools now have lunchroom police to check your childs sack lunch to make sure their lunch meets some non-existant standard. Carry this a step further and it will not be long before the government is in your home investigating you for malnrohishing your children.

The O.P did not say the individual was on campus. He said he was a college student. Yet automatically a number of posters fell victim to protect the children fear.

I don't know if the O.P. is a liberal but his post is a example of the strategy being used against us.

fallout mike
March 17, 2012, 10:23 AM
Bsa, which is why so many of us took the position we did.

Ankeny
March 17, 2012, 10:37 AM
Shootings where a specific victim was choosen doesn't count as well as a gun found in a locker or backpack. Why doesn't shooting just one chosen victim count? How many kids have to be killed before they matter?

I have read all of these posts with great interest. Two years ago I concluded a 32 year career in education. Prior to my career in education, I was a LEO for a few brief years. This year marks my 25th year in the emergency services as a volunteer. I now dedicate all of my time to the fire service as a Chief officer. As an emergency responder, I would guesstimate I have seen well over 150 dead or severely injured people as a result of drunken drivers. Not that it matters, the ages of the dead ranged from just a few months to many years old. For those who feel the actions of another are of no concern to you, do you even care about how many of the victims of drunken drives would be alive today had the location and behavior of the drunken drivers been reported? That is why we have the Report Every Drunken Driver Immediately system. Alas, we all know that the majority of people in this country adopt the head in the sand posture whether the situation in front of them is a strong indicator of what could potentially happen or whether it is what is happening now.

In my years in education, I have personally dealt with firearms in school three times. The first was a kid who brought his vehicle into the school shop to do some repairs. Another student was sitting in the vehicle when he saw the grip of the revolver (a single action Ruger) protruding from under the seat. The second student picked up the revolver and was handling it in a reckless (make that ignorant) fashion. I took possession of the gun, unloaded it, and it was locked in the trunk. An appropriate butt chewing also transpired. The incident went no further. That was in the 1980's. I doubt it would be handled the same today.

Along about 2005, I was crossing the school parking lot when a student shouted out, "Hey Mr. Ankeny, come check this out." When I was a couple of feet from his vehicle, he said, "Look what my dad got me from...." What followed the word "from" was the name of a local gun store. Sure as hell, the kid produced a loaded Glock 22. I gave that kid an ass chewing from Hades, I explained the potential ramifications of his actions. I told him to secure the pistol and to park off of school property, etc. The incident went no further at school, but I did speak with his father about what happened. I won't/can't discuss the third incident.

The reason I am sharing this is because I am one of those who responded early in the tread that I would advise the local authorities. I just want you to know I am not one to overreact at the mere presence of a firearm. My interpretation of the scenario, right or wrong, is that I see a person (illegally) with a firearm walking down the road (I also interpreted this as a road on campus). It matters not that the gun is a black rifle. Yeah, for all I know the headline on the sports page in the local newspaper the following morning might read "Senior ROTC member at Straight Shooter University wins Service Rifle Division for the Third Time."

In my training in education, and in training with the emergency services, we speak of warning signs and indicators. In after action reviews, folks often speculate on how much different things might have been had people been more vigilant (situational awareness). A person with a rifle on campus (my interpretation of the scenario) is simply a heads up. It could be nothing. It could be something. Did the person post his intentions via a social media to shoot people? Did he post intentions to win a service rifle competition? Was he expelled from school and is he emotionally distraught? Is there a gunsmithing class at the college and is he carrying his semester project? I don't know. Still, I would pass the information on to the dispatch center in a non-emergency fashion with an appropriate size up. I feel it is my duty to do so considering my training and in light of my position in the emergency services. That doesn't make me a hysterical, anti-gun, the sky is falling, liberal...

Let me add this twist, then I am finished. If a school shooting were to transpire at the conclusion (just a what if) of the scenario, and you found out a high ranking official with the fire department, who is trained in the components of active shooting scenarios from warning signs through response, saw the shooter on campus with a weapon before the incident and did nothing...

fallout mike
March 17, 2012, 10:44 AM
Bc if one specific kid was chosen to be killed then they would have been killed by a baseball bat, metal pipe, knife, tree branch, or anything if a gun wasn't available. Taking guns away doesn't stop violent crimes. It just changes the weapon used. I'm so sick of hearing about the kids safety. Where is the parents responsibility in this? Me and everybody I associate with all have something in common. We raise respectful kids.

NavyLCDR
March 17, 2012, 11:37 AM
No, because the local cops can't enforce the Code of Federal Regulations.

You would be mistaken:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8b6e311a309b55baa88b68f0f2c61ee4&rgn=div8&view=text&node=39:1.0.1.4.21.0.1.1&idno=39

Title 39: Postal Service
PART 232—CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY


§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(q) Enforcement. (1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security force shall exercise the powers provided by 18 U.S.C. 3061(c)(2) and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property and persons thereon.

(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40 U.S.C. 1315(d)(3) and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a manner that will protect Postal Service property.

(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.

Old krow
March 17, 2012, 01:07 PM
I have been following this thread and read it all, although I doubt that I remember all of it.

My initial assessment was, that I wouldn't immediately call the police and there simply isn't enough info to make an informed decision. That really hasn't changed.

From reading all of this I would gather that some folks would call the police simply because it was "out of place" regardless of whether or not it was legal or not. Some would not all simply because no harm was being done.

Teachu2, you make a strong case and I understand your POV. On the other hand, if you're advocating that we "self-police" ourselves, wouldn't prudence demand that we make an attempt to put this would be felon on the correct path? Calling the police would make a spectacle of the situation either way.

My question on this would be; as I understand the Castle Doctrine of my home state, the act of felony breaking and entering (forcible entry) justifies the reasonable assumption that I fear for my life. The act of the person entering the home is of course malum in se, but I don't necessarily have to be hurt before I react. In other words, I am allowed to take defensive measures before the act of injury has occurred because the criminal has demonstrated that they are willing commit a felony. I understand the difference in malum in se and malum prohibidum, but the premise is the same isn't it? Because someone has clearly made a reasonable threat (committed a felony) I may assume that their intentions are malign? It seems (and I stress "seems") like the two schools of thought contradict each other for the average person that doesn't really read all that much into it.

I understand that my house isn't likely going to be broken into by accident.

I don't really have a pony in this race, it's been very informative for me, so don't take the question as me taking one side or the other, it's just information.

Ankeny
March 17, 2012, 01:33 PM
Bc if one specific kid was chosen to be killed then they would have been killed by a baseball bat, metal pipe, knife, tree branch, or anything if a gun wasn't available. Possibly so, but I don't want it happening on my watch no matter the weapons system.

Where is the parents responsibility in this? Me and everybody I associate with all have something in common. We raise respectful kids. Amen to that and thank you.

rbernie
March 17, 2012, 01:34 PM
A statistician might disagree, but I would take this data to suggest that easier access to firearms increases the murder rate very significantly.Highgate - you would be incorrect. Moreover, trolling for tangential discussions such as this within this thread is unwelcome. If you want to have that specific discussion - start a new thread with that topic.

But before you do, I suggest some light reading:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

There are many causal factors to crime, and access to firearms does not appear to be one of them.

mdauben
March 17, 2012, 01:59 PM
Dang, the assumptions.

Obviously illegal? No. In my state, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING illegal about this act; college campus or not.
Pay attention to the whole discussion from the beginning. The OP stated in setting this scenario that carrying that weapon on that campus was illegal. That is a given. There is no room for argument on that point. What the laws are in your state are totally irrelevent to the discussion. The individual was breaking the law. :banghead:

As far as your drive-by diagnosis that he's mentally unstable and certainly on his way to a mass murder... jeez. All that came to mind when I read that, really, was this line from Al Shapton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...-08Vx-A#t=172s
If you are going to quote me, quote the whole statement. Don't trim it to fit your rant. :cuss:

You didn't include my qualfier "the (IMO) very real potential". I did not say he was of a certainty a homicidal maniac. What I said was that there was reason to suspect that someone who is (a) breaking the law, (b) doing something most reasonable people would not, and (c) carrying a weapon openly in an area similar to where high-profile acts of violence have recieved wide-spread media attention you need to at least consider the fact that he might be a unbalanced.

Again, short of waiting for him to start shooting and people to start dying, where do you draw the line? When do you step in and say "Uh-oh, this might be a problem"? This isn't about gun rights, this isn't about personal liberty, this is about "situational awareness" of a potentially dangerous situation and what to do if it happened. :rolleyes:

jr_roosa
March 17, 2012, 02:17 PM
Just because you call the police doesn't mean that you are sure that somebody is breaking the law. I think its reasonable to call them anytime you see something that doesn't quite fit in your community. Live and let live, but there is normal behavior and there is odd behavior.

For example, it's perfectly legal to open carry in my suburban neighborhood, but if somebody walked by my house with a rifle on his back, that would be pretty weird, and I would definitely call the police to look into what the guy was up to. A guy walking with an openly carried pistol on his belt? I'd ignore that...it's a lot less weird. They're basically the same situation, both are legal at face value, but one is really out of the ordinary.

If I was in a rural area and a guy walked by the house with a rifle? He'd get a wave and a "good morning."

It's the same thing if I saw somebody disheveled and stumbling down the sidewalk in my neighborhood, the police would get a call. If I'm downtown, I'd probably give the guy a couple bucks.

Carrying a rifle or something that looks like a rifle on or very near a college campus suggests somebody who might not be making wise decisions, the cops would get a call and I'd head the other way.

-J.

NavyLCDR
March 17, 2012, 02:21 PM
Again, short of waiting for him to start shooting and people to start dying, where do you draw the line? When do you step in and say "Uh-oh, this might be a problem"? This isn't about gun rights, this isn't about personal liberty, this is about "situational awareness" of a potentially dangerous situation and what to do if it happened. :rolleyes:

I, personally, would draw the line and step in and say "Uh-oh, this might be a problem" when I first saw the person. I would immediately take action to correct the situation to prevent something tragic from happening. That's why I would politely approach the gentleman and ask him if he realized he was violating a stupid gun law and it was a felony. The tragic event would be calling the police on a fellow gentleman doing nothing more than exercising his Constitutional rights and having those rights removed from him for the rest of his life for an action he, in all probability, had no idea was a felony.

That would be upsetting to me.

How many people would have called the British police and had our founding fathers arrested for treason, I wonder.....

Loosedhorse
March 17, 2012, 02:24 PM
If you want to have that specific discussion - start a new thread with that topic.Would be lively!There are many causal factors to crime, and access to firearms does not appear to be one of them.As phrased, I don't agree with the statement (it could be rephrased into a statement that I would agree with).

Re the topic of this thread, one of the causes for concern is that a person who has ill will, access to unarmed victims, and access to a firearm would be a real threat.That's why I would politely approach the gentleman and ask him if he realized he was violating a stupid gun law and it was a felony.Well, some of us might consider approaching a guy who was in the process of committing a felony with a firearm...tactically unsound. If I'm challenging this guy, it is verbally, from behind cover, and from distance. But since I am unarmed in this locale, I'm probably not challenging him.

AlaskaMan
March 17, 2012, 11:15 PM
You would be mistaken:



Which means that each, individual Postmaster and installation head would have to have a pre-existing Mou (Memorandum Of Understanding) which every LE agency. Unless there is a local regulation which allows the adoption of federal regulations, which is outside the realm of possibility, it would require that the under 40 USC 1315
"(e) Authority Outside Federal Property.— For the protection of property owned or occupied by the Federal Government and persons on the property, the Secretary may enter into agreements with Federal agencies and with State and local governments to obtain authority for officers and agents designated under this section to enforce Federal laws and State and local laws concurrently with other Federal law enforcement officers and with State and local law enforcement officers"

'Taint gonna happen.

NavyLCDR
March 18, 2012, 12:13 AM
Which means that each, individual Postmaster and installation head would have to have a pre-existing Mou (Memorandum Of Understanding) which every LE agency. Unless there is a local regulation which allows the adoption of federal regulations, which is outside the realm of possibility, it would require that the under 40 USC 1315
"(e) Authority Outside Federal Property.— For the protection of property owned or occupied by the Federal Government and persons on the property, the Secretary may enter into agreements with Federal agencies and with State and local governments to obtain authority for officers and agents designated under this section to enforce Federal laws and State and local laws concurrently with other Federal law enforcement officers and with State and local law enforcement officers"

'Taint gonna happen.

However, even if no Memorandum of Understanding exists, a local LEO can still DETAIN a person for a violation of Federal regulation and turn them over to Federal law enforcement at the first opportunity.

AlaskaMan
March 18, 2012, 12:28 AM
I don't suppose you'd care to provide an example of that having occured in Washington State in the last year?

Approximately 493 post offices in Washington State (based onthe number of zip codes), you'd think this might have occured once in the state.

Ala Dan
March 18, 2012, 12:44 AM
There is a federal law on the books, concerning any type of carry within
[I believe-?] 1,000 feet of any school. Based on this fact, YES I would notify
the proper jursdiction; and let them check this gentleman out on sight~!:scrutiny: :uhoh: ;)

jerkface11
March 18, 2012, 02:06 AM
We are a nation of laws and are bound by them. This is what separates us from Iran, China, etc, where the law is meaningless when government officials kidnap and execute or imprison whoever they want whenever they want.


I think you don't watch the news. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/with-reservations-obama-signs-act-to-allow-detention-of-citizens/

NavyLCDR
March 18, 2012, 06:18 AM
I don't suppose you'd care to provide an example of that having occured in Washington State in the last year?

Approximately 493 post offices in Washington State (based onthe number of zip codes), you'd think this might have occured once in the state.

Nope.

Black Duck Charlie
March 20, 2012, 02:00 AM
It is neither illegal for "underage" teens (oxymoron there, since teens are already underage) to drink, nor for them to acquire alcohol (including, but not limited to beer). It is, however, illegal to provide the alcohol to them, as well as for them be intoxicated. fallout mike is using a strawman argument.

The argument that "it's none of my business" is likewise a strawman. It's none of your business how a parent disciplines their kids, but what if you see a parent whipping a kid who later ends up in the hospital (or worse, in a grave) because of the whipping -- and you did nothing because "it's none of your business"?

Now, as for whether anyone SHOULD call the police when they see someone openly carrying a firearm where it is illegal to carry ANY firearm, yes, they SHOULD. It really doesn't matter if you happen to not agree with the law, because if we all just ignored laws we don't like or agree with we would very quickly end up with ANARCHY.

Black Duck Charlie
March 20, 2012, 02:15 AM
fallout mike; I'm so sick of hearing about the kids safety. Where is the parents responsibility in this? Me and everybody I associate with all have something in common. We raise respectful kids.

Well, mike, not all kids actually are respectful. I recall a summer a few years back when a couple "respectful" kids decided that it would be a hoot to go around shooting horses. Yeah, those kids were "raised to be respectful". Here's the kick: Their parents were working full-time, so they were NOT able to make sure the kids were ALWAYS respectful.

This is not about "liberal" or "conservative", no matter how much you want to make it so. This is about openly carrying a firearm where it is illegal to carry any firearm at all, openly or not. Do you really want to help someone commit a crime, just because YOU think a law is unConstitutional?

Black Duck Charlie
March 20, 2012, 02:30 AM
NavyLCDR; How many people would have called the British police and had our founding fathers arrested for treason, I wonder.....

Ah, a "I won't call the police to report something against a law I don't personally agree with because the Founding Fathers ignored the law of their time" argument. Well, how about if we all refuse to turn in poachers -- since they have the "right" to feed themselves? Or shoot down a teen who was just returning home from the store -- because we "feel threatened" by the teen? Why don't we just all do what we want, when we want -- because we "have the right to do so"?

NavyLCDR, this isn't the 1780's -- this is 2012. You don't get to just ignore laws you do not personally agree with.

Black Duck Charlie
March 20, 2012, 02:37 AM
jerkface11; I think you don't watch the news. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...n-of-citizens/

I hope you have not so easily forgotten that it was a Conservative Republican who signed into Law the authority of Government to detain and incarcerate U.S. Citizens simply because they are suspected of being terrorists -- detained/incarcerated without access to legal counsel. It's called The Patriot Act.

Sam1911
March 20, 2012, 09:53 AM
The argument that "it's none of my business" is likewise a strawman. It's none of your business how a parent disciplines their kids, but what if you see a parent whipping a kid who later ends up in the hospital (or worse, in a grave) because of the whipping -- and you did nothing because "it's none of your business"?
This is, itself, a straw-man argument of sorts. In the initial example, NO ONE is being harmed, and there is no direct reason to believe anyone is about to be harmed. Someone is simply transporting a firearm. Malum prohibidum -- wrong (only) because there is a statute against that act, not because anyone is harmed by the act.

What you decide to believe that portends is entirely a product of your own exposure to, experience with, and comfort with people who are visibly armed. If you earnestly believe that seeing someone armed means they are going to hurt or kill someone, then you naturally want to act against them. If you are around armed people regularly NOT hurting or killing anyone, and see going armed as a generally positive thing, then you would not.

In the example you're giving, someone is being directly harmed. Malum in se. A completely different, and utterly irrelevant, proposition.

Now, as for whether anyone SHOULD call the police when they see someone openly carrying a firearm where it is illegal to carry ANY firearm, yes, they SHOULD. It really doesn't matter if you happen to not agree with the law, because if we all just ignored laws we don't like or agree with we would very quickly end up with ANARCHY.
You're mixing up two separate ideas here. I have not, and will not, advocate breaking a law -- malum prohibidum, OR malum in se -- but that is a separate issue from whether I choose to assist in the arrest and prosecution of others for an on-paper "crime" I do not support. That is not anarchy, or anything close to it. If I were sworn to uphold the law -- i.e. a law-enforcement officer -- I would have to act under my oath. If I am a private citizen, I am under no obligation whatsoever to aid in the enforcement of such a law.

MisterMike
March 20, 2012, 09:56 AM
I suppose you could make this into a political or policy litmus test, but the question I always ask myself before calling the coppers is whether it's a situation that is worth checking out. The time, setting, and demeanor of the individual--along with a bajillion other factors--go into making that decision.

For instance, I live in a suburb of a major metro area. There's no hunting permitted here, no gun shops within five miles, and no discharge of a weapon is permitted, except for self-defense. My analysis of a guy carrying a rifle would be a lot different outside my townhouse than it would be on the land I own on top of a bluff in Wisconsin, where pretty much everyone is wearing camo of some sort and gun ownership is measured not in percentages of the population, but by how many dozen you have in your gun safe.

Loosedhorse
March 20, 2012, 06:38 PM
What you decide to believe that portends is entirely a product of your own exposure to, experience with, and comfort with people who are visibly armed.Comfort not just with someone visibly armed but (from my take on the OP) armed and clearly breaking the law. I don't think it's unreasonable for some of us, seeing an armed guy doing something that carries serious jail time, to figure that he's either incredibily stupid or has no concern for what the penalties are. Perhaps because he has no intention of surviving to worry about them.

Either way, I'd conclude having this guy armed is not a great idea. Especially if he's wearing a VTech teeshirt.

CZguy
March 20, 2012, 11:34 PM
Especially if he's wearing a VTech teeshirt.

Forgive me for being old, but what's a VTech teeshirt?

HOOfan_1
March 20, 2012, 11:43 PM
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University AKA Virginia Tech sight of the shootings in April 2007

StrutStopper
March 20, 2012, 11:53 PM
I didn't read thru 10 pages of opinions, but if there were no laws being broken then the guy with the gun would have no problems if the cops were called. If there were laws being violated then he would either find himself in trouble or worse, had he decided to use the weapon to do the unthinkable. I have had the cops called on me for two of us walking down the road wearing camo and carrying "rifles" (they were actually a shotguns). The road happened to be a main road that went through a small section of a wildlife management area during spring turkey season. Of course, the responding cops had no idea it was hunting season and I'm sure the people who called didn't know either, unless they were antis. Bottom line, they let me go about my business when I explained the situation. It torqued me a little that one of the officers warned me to be careful because people ride ATVs in the area I told him I planned to hunt. ATVs are illegal, hunting is not.

Black Duck Charlie
March 21, 2012, 02:35 AM
Sam1911; You're mixing up two separate ideas here. I have not, and will not, advocate breaking a law -- malum prohibidum, OR malum in se -- but that is a separate issue from whether I choose to assist in the arrest and prosecution of others for an on-paper "crime" I do not support. That is not anarchy, or anything close to it. If I were sworn to uphold the law -- i.e. a law-enforcement officer -- I would have to act under my oath. If I am a private citizen, I am under no obligation whatsoever to aid in the enforcement of such a law.

So, if you see someone openly carrying a firearm on a college/university campus where you KNOW it is not allowed, you will not call the police at all because "it's none of your business" and "nobody is being harmed". By that logic, then, you won't call the police when you see someone enter a bank while carrying what is obviously a rifle -- because "it's none of your business" and "nobody is being hurt". You apparently would allow the bank to be robbed and people possibly harmed just so someone could exercise their right to carry a firearm.

As for my getting things mixed up, that may be -- but then, I'm not a graduate of Law School and don't happen to know all that fancy Latin.

forestdavegump
March 21, 2012, 02:39 AM
AR-15 strapped across his back.? How far away am I? It could be air soft? If its being carried slug over his back is that a threat? What about the 2nd, Is this taking place in America, California or the middle east?
NO!:scrutiny:

Black Duck Charlie
March 21, 2012, 02:41 AM
StrutStopper, if a cop is not aware of whether it is hunting season, or that ATV use in a Wildlife Management Area is generally not allowed, they have no business being a cop -- especially when they are a local cop.

Black Duck Charlie
March 21, 2012, 02:45 AM
forestdavegump, it was made abundantly clear that the firearm in the situation is being carried in an area where it is ILLEGAL to carry firearms. But you go ahead and openly carry an AR-15 where it is illegal to do so -- and make sure you tell the cops that you don't have to put it down because you are protected by the 2nd Amendment, too.

forestdavegump
March 21, 2012, 02:49 AM
You are in college, and on the way to class you see a man walking down the road with an AR-15 strapped across his back. Not doing anything abnormal (besides the obvious gun totting), and his dress or demeanor do not alarm you. You live in a state that doesn't allow carry on a college campus. Do you call the cops?
Man walking down road has AR across his back, He is on the road is that the campus, part of campus or the public road? Call the cops? For what? :banghead: Show me, the law, then the breaking of a law, not your own what if this or that paranoia! With just this OP info ALL gun loving Americans must say NO!:eek
Call me and I will arrest you for making a false report.:what:
PS a gun free zone is a sign that advertises commit crimes here as we are unarmed, and weak, and scared! We want to be victims!

forestdavegump
March 21, 2012, 02:53 AM
Would you call the cops?
This is completely hypothetical, and did NOT happen to me.

You are in college, and on the way to class you see a man walking down the road with an AR-15 strapped across his back. Not doing anything abnormal (besides the obvious gun totting), and his dress or demeanor do not alarm you. You live in a state that doesn't allow carry on a college campus. Do you call the cops?

Divorce your answer from obligations to report a crime in progress.

I would call the police. Although I would like to see legal carry on a college campus, it's not legal, and this man has demonstrated himself to be a criminal. His lack of respect for the law scares me, and the fear of the hell he could unleash would make me immediately phone the police. As a law abiding person, I would not be carrying my weapon on a college campus, and my lack of ability to stop him from a distance, if it was necessary, scares me.

Am I wrong? Would anyone not call the cops?
YES:what:
READ what is said not what you think is being said...NO LAW has been broken.
AND you have no such legal obligation..."obligations to report a crime in progress," FALSE!

Black Duck Charlie
March 21, 2012, 03:19 AM
forestdavegump, the willful disobeyance of Law, even Law you do not happen to agree with, shows that you simply do not care about the Law, which is the hallmark of a criminal. Period.

45bthompson
March 21, 2012, 03:20 AM
There is a lot going on in this thread. I can't answer the question directly with the information presented. I suppose it would depend on how I feel about the situation while actually experiencing it. There are too many unknown variables for anyone's opinion to be correct as everybody imagining this is using their own mind and previous life experience to form their opinions. As a general rule I don't spend a lot of energy or time arguing over hypothetical situations. It has however been an entertaining read so far.

forestdavegump
March 21, 2012, 03:51 AM
So a man at home sees two men in masks....he runs away..... sees another man and turns left... and runs further and turns left again, and runs toward another man and runs to the left.....he then runs back home and still sees the two men in masks...What happened and why? Why was he running just to head back to the masked men he ran from in the beginning?:banghead:
READ what is said only! The facts stated! Not the ad lib;)



Reading is fundamental! We can agree to disagree. I have been on the job and the OP failed to make a case for unlawful anything! There is legal and lawful and there is right even in this case, is anything being done wrong? NO, READ! The truth is from the info given and only the info given, no laws were broken, They could have been if....does not cut it. I re-posted exactly what he said......previously in hope it would get read.....That is why we have innocent until proven guilty and 12 jurors?:banghead:

Black Duck Charlie "forestdavegump, the willful disobeyance of Law, even Law you do not happen to agree with, shows that you simply do not care about the Law, which is the hallmark of a criminal. Period."

What law is the one I don't agree with? Who stated a law? Read all my post and stop jumping to conclusions. Man on road with AR, No guns on school property. Two separate fact linked only in your mind. I asked questions. Road does not = campus? Could but also could not. LACK of info!:banghead:

I thought you missed the point.... NOW I KNOW YOU DID.....When they come for your guns, I know you will just give them up right? They will make it "THE LAW" good chap!:banghead:

We can represent you at your trial too? The LAW!.....LOL whose?
Our/My forefathers broke the law and they were treasonous criminals, they did far worse, I aspire to be like them, we need more like them today.....move back to England and say HI to King George!:banghead:

okay quote where the law was and or being broken and I will concede.:banghead:

dirtengineer
March 21, 2012, 03:59 AM
Maybe he is an ROTC cadet with a rubber duck M16 playing opposing force in a squad operation training exercise.

forestdavegump
March 21, 2012, 04:01 AM
Black Duck Charlie "forestdavegump, the willful disobeyance of Law, even Law you do not happen to agree with, shows that you simply do not care about the Law, which is the hallmark of a criminal. Period."

Johnny Dollar "So forestdavegump you have been proclaimed a criminal by our new friend of one week!

I'll try to bail you out!"
__________________
Courage is almost a contradiction in terms. It means a strong desire to live taking the form of readiness to die.

Gilbert K. Chesterton, 1924



Thanks! When guns are outlawed only criminals will carry AR's down the road in broad day light on or near a campus or school zone?

The fact its an AR shows me he is not a criminal or Al Qaeda! Now if you said AK!!!!.....and dark skinned FDG with a towel around his head.....was carrying his AK down the road with his son Forrest and Bubba I would scream....unlawful law breakers and have TSA grope them and check their pants for bi-nary explosives, BATF seize those illegal assault weapons, and call the FBI to ran sack their Ruby Ridge home and the Waco vacation house....but that was not said!

Black Duck Charlie
March 21, 2012, 04:20 AM
Again, go ahead and openly carry a firearm where it expressly illegal to do so. Go ahead.

forestdavegump
March 21, 2012, 04:37 AM
Black Duck Charlie Again, go ahead and openly carry a firearm where it expressly illegal to do so. Go ahead.
Like in WA, OR or ID we have open carry here. Where are you talking about? The Road? Like the movie the road? or road like the OP said! Same difference.
Where was that? Expressly illegal? Where?
And if I was the criminal you said I was...I would huh?
READ:banghead:READ:banghead:
Are you the High Road Troll or What? You still can not answer the question? Of Where? Read Read Read!

larryh1108
March 21, 2012, 07:16 AM
Interesting thread.

My take is it seems like several people here feel that calling the police is the same as assuming the guy carrying the AR is "guilty of a crime" and are planning on shooting him for fear of what he might do. Calling the police does not mean you are killing the gun-toter or even having him arrested for exercising his rights. Calling the police and letting them do their job is responsible. If the guy is not breaking any real or imagined law then they will let him go his merry way. If he's on a street off campus then what's the issue with calling authorities? The guy could cross the street at any point and then be on campus. If the guy has an air soft on his way to a paint ball exercise then he'll go on his merry way after a brief conversation. If the police stop him and see he has 10 extra mags in a duffel bag and a suicide bomb strapped to his chest then calling the police may have saved countless lives. If the cops have their own agenda and haul him in for intense interrogation then the problem is with the police, not the caller who alerted them. If a man wishes to express his rights by toting around an AR then he should expect some to object to his protest... after all he is seeking attention. If he wished to remain left alone he could easily carry it in a case. By choosing to openly carry it he is opening the door for further scrutiny. He may have a right to carry his rifle but we also have a right to be safe and free from those who wish to do us harm. Your rights do not trump my rights. Calling the police allows them to do their job and to assess the situation first hand and keeps us from having to jump to conclusions. I don't see how alerting the police to a situation like this is akin to shooting this man down because you are afraid of what he may do.

Larry Ashcraft
March 21, 2012, 07:22 AM
Looks like this one has been circling the drain all night.

Enough.

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