Another Colonel Would Like a Chance For Rebuttal


February 13, 2004, 01:36 PM
A statement by a former guard Colonel claiming Bush's Guard service was exemplary was posted here. Another colonel serving then would also like to give his testimony. His name is Lt Col Bill Burkett. He states that Bush's service records were deliberately destroyed to preclude a political embarrassment, and he claims to have witnessed it. As predicted, he is currently being attacked by the adminsitration, yet he has others serving at the time who defend him. I am not saying this is definitive proof, I am stating this issue is hardly resolved and there are many guard members in that unit who dispute the assertion that Bush fulfilled his service. Their statements will also be posted.
February 12, 2004
AN INTERVIEW WITH BILL BURKETT....As promised earlier, here's the interview with former Lt. Colonel Bill Burkett regarding his charges that George Bush's National Guard files in Texas were "cleansed" back in 1997. I talked to him on the phone for nearly two hours on Wednesday and his story hung together pretty well. In particular, his story of how he overheard the conversation in General James' office and then saw some of Bush's files in a trashcan makes more sense when you hear the details.

The first (partial) corroboration is from George Conn. According to the New York Times, he declined specific comment on the charges but said via email, "I know LTC Bill Burkett and served with him several years ago in the Texas Army National Guard. I believe him to be honest and forthright. He 'calls things like he sees them.'"

Also from the Times is this: "A retired officer, Lt. Col. Dennis Adams, said Mr. Burkett told him of the incidents shortly after they happened. 'We talked about them several different times,' said Mr. Adams, who spent 15 years in the Texas Guard and 12 years on active duty in the Army."

A third person, Harvey Gough, was interviewed last year by Sander Hicks. Although the conversation was not specifically about Burkett's charges, Hough did confirm that he believed Bush's records had been scrubbed: "He says that Dan Bartlett and Danny James came to him at Camp Mabry in 1993, right after Bush was inaugurated as Governor, and deleted portions of Bush's TANG file. I asked Gough what he believed was scrubbed? 'I think quite a bit. I think all his time in Alabama.'"

Finally, USA Today has a corroborating quote from an anonymous source: "A second former Texas Guard official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, was told by a participant that commanders and Bush advisers were particularly worried about mentions in the records of arrests of Bush before he joined the National Guard in 1968, the second official said."

Put all this together and I think that Burkett's story is one worth hearing about from the horse's mouth. Here it is.

First, a bit of background about Burkett's service in the Guard.

I was a traditional guardsman, Vietnam era guardsman, lieutenant colonel, midlevel to senior level in rank and time. I was serving as the Mobilization Plans Officer for the Texas National Guard at the state headquarters, Camp Mabry, Austin, Texas, Building 8.

How long were you with the Guard?

I was medically retired in 1999 after 28 years.

Following is the account of how Burkett overheard the conversation about "cleansing" George Bush's National Guard files.

The occurrences here occurred in the early months, the spring months of 1997....I had meant to simply go in and, best I recall....I went in to ask a quick question, it was just a passing question, or maybe pass along some information, I don't remember specifically. I went into General [Daniel] James' outer office, Henrietta Valderes was not there, but the door was slightly ajar, I'd say roughly eight inches, and the reason I say eight inches is only because I wear a size seven and a half hat and I just basically stuck my head inside.

.... I stuck my head inside the door, saw that no one was there, and I was embarrassed. I stepped back and I waited for a second and I overheard this conversation. And it was a short conversation that I overheard, I only heard a line or two of it, and I stepped out into the hallway because I was uncomfortable at this point.

[Burkett] says he was just outside James' open office door when his boss discussed the records on a speakerphone with Joe Allbaugh, who was then Gov. Bush's chief of staff. In Burkett's account, Allbaugh told James that Bush's press secretary, Karen Hughes, was preparing a biography and needed information on Bush's military service. In an interview, Burkett said he recalled Allbaugh's words: "We certainly don't want anything that is embarrassing in there."

Two individuals walked in. I didn't know either one of them personally, but I do know that General James addressed one and said, General [John] Scribner, the folks from downtown are going to come out, Karen Hughes and [Dan] Bartlett are going to come out and they're, and I'm paraphrasing here, are going to come out and they're going to write a book about the governor for use in the reelection campaign or whatever else is going to follow on, and they need you to open access to your files and retained records. And there was a quick addition to that by General Marty, "and make sure there's nothing in there that'll embarrass the governor."

..... Scribner just replied, basically in the affirmative, OK or something along that line, and he and the individual who was with him, who I did not know and have not identified, but believe he was the retained records person, left, immediately left. They just, like all of us were prone to do when two or three generals are standing around, the best thing you can do is leave the area. So they left.

Following is the account of finding Bush's records in a trashcan, ready to be tossed away.

Mr. Conn came to my desk, he and I, when I was moved to Plans Officer he became the Mobilization Plans Officer, his desk and mine were in cubicles across from each other.

I said, where are we going, George? And he said, Colonel, just walk with me.

....Do you know what a 15-gallon trashcan looks like?

A metal gunbarrel style that we used for years and years in the military, that's what it was, and it was setting at the end of the table. George obviously knew General Scribner extremely well, and he says hello to him and there's little pleasantries and we walk up there, and as soon as we get there he introduces me to General Scribner, who I did not know.

At that point I remember General Scribner saying that people downtown were coming out and they were going to do a book, and Bartlett and Hughes were coming out, and he'd been told to get all the files together and go through them and kind of clean them up a bit. And George said, well, what are you finding? And he says, well, he says he's been through it, and I'm paraphrasing all of this, he says, obviously lots of people have been through it, you know, there's just not as much here as I'd expected, mostly old press releases and that sort of stuff.

I'm standing there on one foot and another, very uncomfortable with this situation, I knew I'd been guided here and I knew why at that point. I was standing right next to the trash can....

Instead I looked down into the trashcan. — I saw that the trash on the bottom was basically packing cartons,..and on top there was a little bit of paper. And on top of that pile of paper, approximately five-eighths of an inch thick, and Jim wanted me to estimate the number of pages and I said probably between 20 and 40 pages of documents that were clearly originals and photocopies. And it wasn't any big deal, I looked at it, it was a glance situation, and it made no sense to me at all except at the top of that top page was Bush, George W., 1LT.

And I look back at it now and I know I was troubled that those documents were in the trashcan. I did ruffle through the top six to eight pages.

And what were they?

Those documents were performance, what I term performance documents, which would include retirement points, [unintelligible] type documents, which would be a record of drill performance or nonperformance, and there was at least one pay document copy within the top six to eight pages of that stack that was in the trash….

....I do not believe General James at the time felt he was doing any more than taking care of the boss. I do not believe that General Marty or anyone else at the Texas National Guard saw it as anything other — you have to understand the culture. ...


Guardsmen Differ On Bush Service

(CBS/AP) Three-decade-old memories took center stage in the controversy over President Bush's military record, as former National Guardsmen made claims about whether he showed up for duty in Alabama in 1972.

Two men told a newspaper they were told to expect Mr. Bush, but never saw him. But a third veteran said the president, then a young officer, did fulfill his duties. Yet another former Guardsman claims Bush aides destroyed military records to protect Mr. Bush, which the White House and the aide allegedly involved denied. The claims and counterclaims fueled another day of debate over the president's service record.

....On Tuesday, the White House released retirement and pay records showing days for which the president was paid in 1972 and 1973. But the records did not indicate where the president served, what he did or where he was during several months where no service was recorded.

On Wednesday, the White House released the record of a dental examination in January 1973 at an Alabama base. But the dentist who treated Mr. Bush has no specific recollection of seeing the future president, saying that at that time he would have been "just another pilot." The timing of the exam did not clear up questions about what Mr. Bush did during gaps in his record in 1972, and it was unclear why Mr. Bush was examined in Alabama two months after the campaign on which he was working ended.

The records have also raised questions unrelated to the president's service. To fight a story that arrest records on young Mr. Bush's record were blacked out, the White House revealed they included an arrest for a student prank at Yale, two speeding tickets and two traffic accidents.

CBS News Correspondent Bill Plante reports the White House backed off its pledge this weekend to release all the president's records. Aside from the dental record, they did not release other medical records that were recently received from the Air Force.

Now veterans of the Guard are adding their claims to the documentary record.

In a six-year old letter to Texas lawmakers obtained by CBS News and in a new book, former guard officer Bill Burkett claims that in 1997, Texas Guard commanders purged Mr. Bush's records to "make sure nothing will embarrass the Governor during his re-election campaign, or if he runs for president."

"I was troubled sufficiently within my own conscience that there was an effort here to cast an image that was better maybe than the individual's record," Burkett said. He claims he overheard a phone conversation in which Mr. Bush's then chief-of-staff Joe Allbaugh gave the order to scrub the records, and later found some in the trash.

The White House dismissed the claims, saying Burkett has no evidence to back them up. Allbaugh called the story "hogwash."

"This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I don't know who he is, what he heard, or what he thought he heard," Allbaugh said. "Hearsay, as far as I'm concerned. I never said what he said."

Separately, two Guardsmen at the Alabama base to which 1st Lt. George W. Bush was told to report told a Memphis newspaper they never saw him either, despite the fact the base was all abuzz about a politically-connected guardsman coming in.

"I remember that I heard someone was coming to drill with us from Texas. And it was implied that it was somebody with political influence. I was a young bachelor then. I was looking for somebody to prowl around with," Bob Mintz, now 63, told The Memphis Flyer.

"I never saw hide nor hair of Mr. Bush," said Paul Bishop, a Gulf War veteran who voted for Mr. Bush in 2000.

But Bill Calhoun says he was stationed at the Alabama air base, and says Mr. Bush was there when he was supposed to be, while he was in Alabama working on a Senate campaign.

Other Guard officers have noted that Mr. Bush may not have been noticed among the hundreds of men on the Alabama base. But Mintz said the flying squadron to which Mr. Bush was supposed to have reported numbered around 30 men.

Mr. Bush joined the Guard in May 1968, and there is no question about his service in his first three years. However, critics have questioned how Mr. Bush leapt a head of a long waiting list to get into the Guard, whose members rarely went to Vietnam, and how he rose quickly to become and officer and a pilot despite relatively low test scores.

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February 13, 2004, 02:08 PM
Oh, you mean Veterans for Peace Bill Burkett.

To put it as nicely as I can, he has a bit of a credibility problem. Do a little research into Ltc. Burkett's background.

I could say more, but I think Art's had enough of all this.

February 13, 2004, 02:24 PM
I believe that this may be the same Bill Burkett.

February 13, 2004, 02:34 PM

The Air Force destroys old records all the time. They have an office which does nothing but destroy records. That is why they give you the DD214 to keep in your own hot little hands.

February 13, 2004, 02:36 PM
Don't make me laugh. Check out "Addicted To War", their little book. Read the "references" at the back. Citations like Marc Herold's thoroughly debunked exaggeration of civilian casualties in Iraq. Spare me.

February 13, 2004, 02:38 PM
Hey, I can absolutely swear that I never saw Lt. Bush in Alabama in 1972 OR 1973. Never once. Nope.

Does that prove he wasn't there? :rolleyes:

Some people's kids...

TFL Survivor

February 13, 2004, 02:42 PM
That is why they give you the DD214 to keep in your own hot little hands.

True. But they only give them to those who serve. President Bush has one. Some people don't though. :rolleyes:

February 13, 2004, 03:26 PM

February 13, 2004, 03:33 PM
Yeah. The mods are probably experiencing a flurry of PMs from those who don't have one right about now. :D

February 13, 2004, 03:36 PM
Holy crap! GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

February 13, 2004, 03:37 PM

Art Eatman
February 13, 2004, 03:40 PM
Nothing like an election year to bring out objective remembrances of history. :barf:


Jeff White
February 13, 2004, 04:04 PM
I spent a good portion of my military career as an AGR trainer in the Army National Guard. Let me tell you that there wouldn't have been much in Lt. Bush's record at state headquarters by 1997. When a person leaves the guard the record goes to the state headquarters where the personnel people go through it. Certain parts that the state keeps are microfilmed and put in the vault file and then the entire hard copy record is sent to the National Personnel Records Center at 9700 Page Blvd. in St. Louis MO. It's usually only a matter of months after a person is separated from the guard before his hard copy record is sent to St. Louis. If Bush left the Texas Guard in the early 1970s, there would be no way there was a large paper file on him in 1997.

Sorry I have to call this entire story BS...It's not how the system works. I can understand how people believe it though, we routinely received calls from people who had served back in the 50s who thought we still had their file at the armory.


February 13, 2004, 04:09 PM
Step one: post refutable evidence of bush's deriliction of duty

Step two: it's refuted

Step three: degenerates into bull****

Step four: Mods close it

Step five: lather, rinse, repeat

Mods, please close this crap. Every time it gets closed, someone reopens it. Give it a rest already.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 13, 2004, 04:32 PM
Sorry I have to call this entire story BS

That hits the nail on the head.

This is nothing more than the leftist news outlets doing their all to advance the prospects of thier selected candidate: Sen. Kerry.

So few of the reporters and editors have actually served however that what to someone who has served is obvious as B.S. strikes them instead as being very effective propaganda.

The wheels are coming off this construct of lies as the accusations are debunked one by one.

If this crap is the best the Dems can come up with as an election issue then they are in deep trouble this fall.

The Washington Post is reduced today to actually running a front page article on Bush's driving record from 30 years ago, just as if it were a Woodward and Bernstein piece on Watergate. What a sad display of desperation.

Sean Smith
February 13, 2004, 04:35 PM
What, a hard-left ranter has something bad to say about Bush? No, really? :rolleyes:

More than one French or German household now sits watching the US expending her virtue through the tools of greed, anger and vengeance. And they caution us.

The guy is a lunatic fringer. He's a spokesman for an anti-war, anti-Bush 501(c)3 organization. On the other hand, the guy corroborating Bush's service was, last I checked, NOT a spokeman for a pro-war organization or Republican PAC. Believing this guy's story about Bush is on par with believing a Nazi spokesman's stories about Jews. "Consider the source" comes to mind here.

Yeah, this guy's anti-Bush story is REAL credible.... :barf:

February 13, 2004, 04:39 PM
I second thefitzvh's motion to close this thread because the carcass of this poor equine has been flayed enough.

February 13, 2004, 04:50 PM
I would like to add something here.

I'm not trolling, nor am I a major Bush-basher (I actually quite like him) but - this supposed dereliction of duty is an issue as much as Kerry's alleged affair (as reported by Drudge) was yesterday. The same posters who gleefully attacked Kerry don't seem to like the same sauce when applied to their gander.

End of my contribution to this non-issue.

Sean Smith
February 13, 2004, 04:51 PM
Except that one happened (or didn't) 30 years ago, and one happened in the recent past. Of course, it is also true that alot of people here dislike Kerry because of his stance on gun control (this being a gun board and all). In that context, being a pro-Kerry THR member is a bit like being a pro-communist CEO... not many people support folks diametrically opposed to their causes.

But thanks for your commentary on our politics from the other side of the ATLANTIC OCEAN. ;)

February 13, 2004, 04:52 PM
The difference between this and the Drudge article is very clear. Notice the total lack of media attention regarding the Drudge article vs. the onslaught of coverage regarding Bush's service. No media bias my dying a.......

February 13, 2004, 04:54 PM
I disagree, guys. Let the thread ride. If someone wants to continue to drive their credibility into the ground, I say more power to them.

What's more interesting to me, especially in the light of continued attempts at unsubstantiated smears on the President, is the failure of the mainstream media to pick up on that OTHER unbsubstantiated story.

They jump immediately on Arnie, Bush, Newt, Rush, Colin, Condi, Jeb, Dick, et al, etc., ad nauseum at the first HINT of impropriety. Yet they still refuse to even glance sideways at the Kerry issue. Oh well, it took 'em four days to pick up on the Lewinsky thing.

It's a pretty fun ride this time around, regardless.

This is going to be a fgood summer.

February 13, 2004, 04:59 PM
Seems I lied, I'm back.

I appreciate what you are saying Sean, I'm not asking you to be pro-Kerry far from it. It's just the partisanship that always amazes me, that's all.

And as for your last comment (about me not being an American) I noted the wink so I will reply in kind - I do follow your politics because us Euro's are always amused (bemused?) by the amount of fleas that appear on the 'big dog' every four years at this time. ;)

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 13, 2004, 05:03 PM
I would like to add something here.
I'm not trolling, nor am I a major Bush-basher (I actually quite like him) but - this supposed dereliction of duty is an issue as much as Kerry's alleged affair (as reported by Drudge) was yesterday. The same posters who gleefully attacked Kerry don't seem to like the same sauce when applied to their gander.
End of my contribution to this non-issue

The accusations against Bush are not equivalent to those against Kerry. Bush has been forthrightly answering questions about his Guard service since 1996, and yet the left wing news media continues to try and resurrect the issue over and over again with a continual series of baseless charges and fabrications.

Kerry on the other hand, has gotten a pass on some very major scandals, even one that he has admitted to, namely accepting campaign contributions from Communist Chinese Red Army Intelligence Officers, at the same time he was running interference in the Senate to thwart calls for investigations into the Chinese theft of Nuclear weapons secrets from Los Alamos.

Contrast the Bush Administrations release of more and more information from his service record with Kerry's apparent urging of his mistress to leave the country for the duration of this election. There's no equivalence there at all.

February 13, 2004, 05:08 PM


St. Johns, that sort of feigned superiority only works on the impressionable or the very weak minded.

We're well aware of who's in the driver's seat on the world stage, both socially and politically.

The sun has set, if you get my reference. Let it go.

February 13, 2004, 05:13 PM
Ok Thumper, I don't want to get in a fight with you there is absolutely no point to it. In my own defence as my parting post I will copy and paste the whole of what you snipped up there (with added bold)

And as for your last comment (about me not being an American) I noted the wink so I will reply in kind - I do follow your politics because us Euro's are always amused (bemused?) by the amount of fleas that appear on the 'big dog' every four years at this time.


February 13, 2004, 05:16 PM

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 13, 2004, 06:34 PM
I wonder if Col. Bill Burkett's implausible 2/12/2004 story of Bush's Texas National Guard file being "sanitized" in 1997 has anything to do with trying to preempt Bush getting any credit for full disclosure of his file on 2/13/2004. Seems like awfully convenient timing for the Dems and their political allies in the news media.

Bush Orders Release of Military Records

Feb 13, 5:43 PM (ET)


WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush, trying to calm a political storm, ordered the release of all of his Vietnam-era military records Friday to counter Democrats' suggestions that he shirked his duty in the Texas Air National Guard.

Hundreds of pages of documents detailed Bush's service in the Guard in Texas and his temporary duty in Alabama while working on a political campaign there in the early 1970s. Democrats have questioned whether Bush ever showed up for duty in Alabama.

"The president felt everything should be made available to the public," White House press secretary said. "There were some who sought to leave a wrong impression that there was something to hide when there is not."

Bush's service record has been an issue in each of his presidential campaigns and resurfaced this year when Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, said Bush had been AWOL - absent without leave - during his time in Alabama.

Democrats hope to capitalize on the issue and undermine Bush's election strength on national security issues by contrasting his service in the Guard, where he was a pilot who did not see combat, with that of Sen. John Kerry, the decorated Vietnam War veteran who is the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard at Ellington Air Force Base on May 27, 1968. The last day he was paid for Guard duty was July 30, 1973. He was placed on inactive Guard duty six months before his commitment at his request because he was starting Harvard Business School. He was honorably discharged.

While he performed most of his service in Texas, Bush transferred to an Alabama guard unit in 1972 because he was working as the political director for the Senate campaign of Winton Blount, a Bush family friend. White House officials say Bush recalls serving both in Texas and Alabama. On Tuesday and Wednesday, the White House provided a dental record and payroll information from his file.

The pay records show Bush, who was a 1st lieutenant, was paid for 25 days of service between May 1972 and May 1973, the year Democrats have been questioning. The pay records, however, do not say what Bush did to receive pay, or where he did it. (not true, the records indicate he drilled in Al).

- edited for spelling CHL2236 -

February 13, 2004, 06:47 PM
The usual suspects. The usual BS.

The same ones who would state that Clinton's record, including the letter (See HERE) ( to Colonel Eugene Holmes are of no consequence are the same ones that will state that Bush's records are of infinite relevance, importance, and paramount to the meaning of his character and ability to run the office. :rolleyes:

My first and last post to this thread and I'm unsubscribed as of the moment I leave it.

February 13, 2004, 07:01 PM
In my own defence as...




February 13, 2004, 07:02 PM
Whoops. Apparently, Burketts' corroborating witnesses aren't corroborating.

I hate it when that happens:

For at least six years, a retired Texas National Guard officer has maintained that President Bush's record as a member of the Guard was purged of potentially embarrassing material at the behest of high-ranking Bush aides laying the groundwork for Bush's 2000 run for the presidency.

Retired Lieutenant Colonel Bill Burkett, who has been pressing his charges in the national news media this week, says he even heard one high-ranking officer issue a 1997 order to sanitize the Bush file, and later saw another officer poring over the records and discovered that some had been discarded.

But a key witness to some of the events described by Burkett has told the Globe that the central elements of his story are false.

George O. Conn, a former chief warrant officer with the Guard and a friend of Burkett's, is the person whom Burkett says led him to the room where the Bush records were being vetted. But Conn says he never saw anyone combing through the Bush file or discarding records.

[color=red]"I have no recall of that," Conn said. "I have no recall of that whatsoever. None. Zip. Nada."

Conn's recollection also undercuts another of Burkett's central allegations: that he overheard Bush's onetime chief of staff, Joe M. Allbaugh, telling a Texas Guard general to make sure there were no embarrassments in the Bush record.

Burkett says he told Conn, over dinner that same night, what he had overheard. But Conn says that, although Burkett told him he worried that the Bush record would be sanitized, he never mentioned overhearing the conversation between Allbaugh and General Daniel James III.

Burkett's allegations about the Bush records come as the White House is attempting to answer mounting questions about whether Bush fulfilled his obligations as a member of the Texas Air Guard during the early 1970s. Burkett's allegations also will be a major focus of a book on Bush to be published next month.

But the book's author, James Moore, a former Houston TV news correspondent, concedes he never interviewed some of the key players who could have verified Burkett's charges, including Conn and retired National Guard Colonel John Scribner -- the officer Burkett says he saw removing items from the Bush file.

Moore, told yesterday that Conn contradicts Burkett's story, said he believes Burkett's allegations are true. "I think we're into a classic he-said, she-said," Moore said.

Earlier this week, Burkett told the Globe that, in the telephone conversation between Allbaugh and James, Allbaugh said the Bush file had to be sanitized because two of Bush's aides were planning to review the records in preparation for Bush's 1999 autobiography, "A Charge to Keep." Burkett said that he overheard the conversation, conducted over James's speaker phone, while standing outside the open door of James's office, and that he was so troubled he told Conn about it that evening.

But Conn, now a civilian government employee working with the US Army in Germany, said Burkett never told him of the conversation. And Allbaugh, a Washington consultant and lobbyist, said, "I would never be so stupid as do something like that."

Allbaugh said he discussed Bush's file with Guard officials but only because Bush wanted to review it, and had never seen it.

Burkett, in his Globe interview and in Moore's book, titled "Bush's War for Re-election," said that a week to 10 days after he overheard the conversation between Allbaugh and James, Conn brought him to an office at the Camp Mabry military history museum, where Conn introduced Burkett to Scribner. Burkett says that at the moment they met Scribner, the officer was busy scrubbing the Bush file.

According to Burke, Conn asked Scribner what he was doing and Scribner replied that he was looking through Bush's records. Burkett said Conn and Scribner then briefly left him alone, and that he saw some pages of Bush's military records in a trash can near Scribner's desk.

Conn contradicts most of Burkett's rendition. He said that he remembers introducing Burkett to Scribner at the museum but that Scribner never said he was going over the Bush file. "If he had said he was going through George W. Bush's records I would have dropped my teeth. Wow," Conn said. "I would definitely have remembered that. I don't recall that at all."

Burkett also says that, before the encounter with Scribner, he was standing with a group of Guard officers, and heard a ranking officer order Scribner to review the Bush file and remove any documents that might be embarrassing to the then-governor.

But Scribner told the Globe yesterday that no such thing occurred. "It didn't happen. I wasn't even there," Scribner said.

Burkett has, in the past, raised his allegations about the Bush records as part of his personal struggle with the Guard over medical benefits.

For instance, in a 1998 letter to Texas state Senator Gonzalo Barrientos, Burkett complained that he had not received adequate medical care when he became seriously ill after returning from a mission to Panama.

He also said Guard officials had retaliated against him because he had conducted a management study critical of the Guard.

Highlights are mine.


February 13, 2004, 07:02 PM
... He was honorably discharged.

I'm not a huge Bush supporter, but the fact that he was honorably discharged is good enough for me as far as this AWOL BS goes.

February 13, 2004, 07:15 PM
And there, my friend, is the crux of the situation...

He served, and was honorably discharged.

Kerry served, and was honorably discharged.

We should be concerned with their policies HERE and NOW, not their service.

I haven't decided what I'm going to vote yet. It may be libertarian. The point is: people change. The Bush and Kerry of 30 years ago, regardless of what anyone says, is not the Bush or Kerry of today.

Kerry joined an anti vietnam war protest group.

I don't agree with that decision, but SO WHAT. He has a right to feel any way he wants about the war.

Point is: let's discuss their policies and viewpoints today, not how much dope they smoked or how many dumb mistakes they made 30 years ago.

If we were judged solely on our past, I wouldn't be an officer candidate right now. I would probably not even have enlisted in the Army at all. I would be in jail.

I challenge anyone to tell me I'm not a good person based on stupid things I did years ago. It's over, done with, and I've paid my dues. So have these men.

Instead, we should be attacking bush on the patriot act, and kerry on his gun views. We should MAKE them hear us on these issues. When we sling old mud, it makes people not pay attention to us.


Bruce H
February 13, 2004, 07:36 PM
thefitzvh ,Sir that is exactly what needs to be done. With GW Bush's present policies he is about where George McGovern was. That doesn't leave John Kerry very much latitude without going full circle and becoming far right conservative. I have absolutely no use for John Kerry based on his senate record and his personal life. With the passage of both Patriot acts and the education bill, his stand on immigration, and campaign finance GW Bush really needs to go also. We have been electing bottom of the barrel people to office for far too long. It's time to go out and draft individuals who don't want anything to do with politics and elect them.

February 13, 2004, 07:44 PM
I'll volunteer:

I don't have a yale degree, nor am I the son of anyone important, but I have two things that most of these fools running don't

Common sense, and integrity.

Although, if I was elected, the country would self destruct, probably splitting into a few seperate nations...

BUT, whatever nation had all the gun nuts... well, we'd be happy as hell.

"Firing range is COLD! COLD RANGE Folks..."

"Dammit Dan! Watch where the hell you're pointing that howitzer... it's COLD. Go retrieve your targets."

"Uh... I can't retrieve my target"


"Cuz I just shot it with a howitzer... the car's missing."




February 13, 2004, 10:24 PM
C'mon guys give St. Johns a break. He's a good guy, and he was just funnin' with you.

We have a few Brits here that troll from time to time, but St. Johns certainly isn't one of them.

February 13, 2004, 10:37 PM

BUT, whatever nation had all the gun nuts... well, we'd be happy as hell.

"Firing range is COLD! COLD RANGE Folks..."

"Dammit Dan! Watch where the hell you're pointing that howitzer... it's COLD. Go retrieve your targets."

"Uh... I can't retrieve my target"


"Cuz I just shot it with a howitzer... the car's missing."



February 13, 2004, 10:43 PM
I wonder.....

Is he a REAL bounty hunter or a WALMART
bounty hunter.:neener:

February 14, 2004, 05:55 AM

Fitz for President!

My campaign slogan?

"Fitz: He's NOT the other guys."

February 14, 2004, 06:14 AM
Veterans for Peace
USA Today
Election year

If any of the above are present, make sure your BS detector is on.
If more than one is present, make sure your BS detector is on high.
If all of the above are present... don't breath the air too long.


February 14, 2004, 09:11 AM
To reiterate... (

February 14, 2004, 06:02 PM
C'mon guys give St. Johns a break. He's a good guy, and he was just funnin' with you.

We have a few Brits here that troll from time to time, but St. Johns certainly isn't one of them

I'll second the motion.

It's my belief that about 99.9999% of the British public is incredibly alienated from the American hunting/shooting community. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot (pun intended) with the remaining .0001%

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 14, 2004, 07:24 PM
C'mon guys give St. Johns a break. He's a good guy, and he was just funnin' with you.

We have a few Brits here that troll from time to time, but St. Johns certainly isn't one of them


February 14, 2004, 08:51 PM
So, how many other colonels are we gonna have to hear from on this???
Colonel Mustard, Colonel Sanders, Colonel Potter, Colonel Custer, Colonel Lingus...oops, sorry, that's the Kerry Campaign.

All we're looking for is a Colonel of truth.:rolleyes:

February 15, 2004, 12:07 AM
"So, how many other colonels are we gonna have to hear from on this???"

You forgot Colonel Klink.

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