Question about FFL


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InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 02:22 AM
I understand an FFL is a Federal Firearms License, but I was wondering if it's beneficial to a regular person purchasing firearms. Do people that hold FFL's only do so to operate a business or does a FFL also gives certain privileges as well? Do you need an FFL to purchase firearms online too? What exactly does an FFL do for a regular person?

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Jorg Nysgerrig
March 17, 2012, 02:30 AM
Depends on what type you are asking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License

InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 02:38 AM
Well I know nothing about FFL's, so I guess my first question should be is do they offer benefits to the average Joe? Like faster background checks or anything really.

I just see people on here casually talk about FFL's and I wasn't sure if all of them were business owners or if having one provides benefits to a regular person.

natman
March 17, 2012, 05:01 AM
Having an FFL allows you to bypass background checks. Heck, it allows you to make background checks when you sell guns, which is the purpose of it all.

The down side is that you have to pay for the license and jump through whatever hoops your state, county and city government decide they want to make you jump through. Depending on where you live this can range from virtually nothing to more hassle and expense than you would believe.

Your house is subject to search by ATF and you MUST keep accurate records.

Unless you are well organized and dedicated to doing it right, it's more trouble than it's worth.

InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 05:30 AM
I like the idea of bypassing background checks, especially when California makes you wait 10 days, but I believe based on the state I live in it may be more of a headache than necessary. I also wouldn't enjoy making records of every sale and purchase I participated in. If anyone from California has an FFL please chime in on how hard it was to obtain. Also the idea of forced searches by the ATF isn't my cup of tea.

Quiet
March 17, 2012, 05:31 AM
There are nine types of FFLs.
Type 01 = Title 1 dealer
Type 02 = Title 1 dealer / pawnbroker
Type 03 = C&R collector
Type 06 = Manufacturer of ammo
Type 07 = Manufacturer of Title 1 firearms
Type 08 = Importer of Title 1 firearms
Type 09 = Dealer of DDs
Type 10 = Manufacturer of DDs
Type 11 = Importer of DDs

Unless you are in the business to make money, the only FFL you will be approved for is the Type 03-FFL "C&R".
If you obtain a FFL, other than a Type 03-FFL, with the intention of benefiting your personal collection, than it will be revoked.

All FFLs are required to keep accurate records and are subject to BATFE audits.

In addition, FFLs must comply with any local (state/county/city) requirements (laws/ordinances).

EDIT:
CA FFLs, except for Type 03-FFLs, are also subject to yearly inspection audits from CA DOJ BOF.
So, both the BATFE and the CA DOJ BOF will be looking over your records and checking out your place of business.
Unless, you can get around $100,000 (need the money to pay for all the yearly fees/taxes/insurance) to start up as a Type 01-FFL in CA, don't bother.

InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 06:11 AM
With a Type 03 are you required to operate a business or can you use it only increase your personal collection? Also what is the point of a Type 03 FFL? Are there certain weapons you cannot legally purchase without a Type 03 FFL? Also can you use the FFL to purchase a brand new rifle over the counter and bypass a waiting period, or can you only use the FFL for certain firearms? Aside from performing background checks on other people and bypassing the waiting period, what else does a Type 03 grant you?

Davek1977
March 17, 2012, 06:51 AM
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

the BATFE can answer these questions with a far greater degree of accuracy than I can. nearly everything you'd want to know is about 03's is covered in the above link

InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 07:08 AM
From what I can tell a Type 03 is only for full auto weapons and since California won't let us lowly peasants own one a Type 03 is useless here. Guess this was all in vein, thank you everyone.

Sam1911
March 17, 2012, 07:18 AM
From what I can tell a Type 03 is only for full auto weapons and since California won't let us lowly peasants own one a Type 03 is useless here. Guess this was all in vein, thank you everyone.

Ok, no...that's a bit confusing. Read the link Davek1977 posted. What you're looking at here is a TYPE 03 FFL. That's a curio-and-relics collector's license.

That allows you to buy directly firearms that fall into these categories:

Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3.Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.


A totally different facet of the FFL system are the "Special Occupational Taxes" which certain FFLs can pay in order to sell, make, or import machine guns, silencers, and other "Title II" items. Those are known as SOT2, SOT3, etc. Often folks call that a "Class 3" dealer or license, which is confusing. That's not what you're looking for.

InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 07:49 AM
Well according to description #1 a Mosin Nagant would require a Type 03 FFL. So i take it firearms that fall under a Type 03 FFL are full auto firearms, large caliber firearms, or firearms with "dangerous" accessories such as a suppressor, correct?

Davek1977
March 17, 2012, 08:28 AM
If you would just read the link In provided, the definition of C&R firearms is included. It has more to do with a weapon's relative age and collectability, and has NOTHING to do with caliber, mode of operation, etc. Curios and Relics are not defined by caliber or "dangerous accessories". A C&R gun could be a .22 short, or a .50 caliber if it meets the age and collect-ability standards set forth by the BATFE. It could be a single shot derringer, or a magazine fed semi-auto. C&R's aren't guns that function a certain way or that has certain features. Mosins are included not because of their caliber or method of operation, but rather because of their age and status among collectors. The fact that it is a .30 caliber rife has absolutely NOTHING to do with its designation.


You've been provided accurate, easy to understand info that you are seemingly refusing to actually read. I provided information answering the bulk of your questions, but I'm not going to locate and post each answer....I led the horse to water, but you're going to have to make the choice to actually drink now that you're here. I understand it is a bit confusing, but a bit of reading will expand your understanding greatly.

Quiet
March 17, 2012, 08:30 AM
From what I can tell a Type 03 is only for full auto weapons and since California won't let us lowly peasants own one a Type 03 is useless here. Guess this was all in vein, thank you everyone.

So i take it firearms that fall under a Type 03 FFL are full auto firearms, large caliber firearms, or firearms with "dangerous" accessories such as a suppressor, correct?
Incorrect.
A Type 03-FFL is totally different from a Class 3 SOT.

There are Types of FFLs and Classess of SOTs.

A Type 03-FFL is the C&R collectors FFL.
It allows the licensed person to acquire C&R (50+ year old) firearms for their personal collection.
It is not suppose to be used for business purposes.


SOT = Special Occupational Taxpayer
Is a special tax bracket that allows certain types of FFLs to handle Title 2 firearms (AOW, DD, MG, NS, SBR SBS).
Class 1 = Importer of Title 2 firearms
Class 2 = Manufacturer of Title 2 firearms
Class 3 = Dealer of Title 2 firearms.

So, a dealer in MGs will typically be a Type 01-FFL Class 3 SOT.

Quiet
March 17, 2012, 08:44 AM
With a Type 03 are you required to operate a business or can you use it only increase your personal collection? Also what is the point of a Type 03 FFL? Are there certain weapons you cannot legally purchase without a Type 03 FFL? Also can you use the FFL to purchase a brand new rifle over the counter and bypass a waiting period, or can you only use the FFL for certain firearms? Aside from performing background checks on other people and bypassing the waiting period, what else does a Type 03 grant you?

A Type 03-FFL is not for business purposess and is only for enhancing your personal collection.

Since you are in CA, here are some CA specific answers.

A CA resident with a valid Type 03-FFL and a valid COE (Certificate Of Eligibility issed by the CA DOJ BOF) are exempt from the 10 day waiting period when acquring a C&R firearm from a CA FFL dealer.

A CA resident with a valid Type 03-FFL and valid COE are exempt from the 1 in 30 day wait for handguns.

A CA resident with a valid Type 03-FFL can travel to another state, legally acquire a C&R firearm and bring it back to CA.
C&R handguns acquired this way, must be reported to the CA DOJ BOF via Curio & Relic Handgun Report Form (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/curioapp.pdf?) within 5 days of bring the handgun into CA.

dprice3844444
March 17, 2012, 10:54 AM
Having an FFL allows you to bypass background checks. that is until you 4473 to yourself,then you must do it according to my atf compliance officer.

dogtown tom
March 17, 2012, 12:14 PM
InfamousLegend I understand an FFL is a Federal Firearms License, but I was wondering if it's beneficial to a regular person purchasing firearms. Do people that hold FFL's only do so to operate a business or does a FFL also gives certain privileges as well? Do you need an FFL to purchase firearms online too? What exactly does an FFL do for a regular person?
With one exception (03 Collector of Curios & Relics) a Federal Firearms License allows someone to engage in the busines of dealing, manufacturing, importing firearms, ammunition or destructive devices. There are seperate FFL's required for each business activity.

A "regular person" has no need for an FFL unless they intend to engage in any of the above business activites OR unless they wish to have an 03 for collecting purposes.

natman Having an FFL allows you to bypass background checks.
No, it doesn't.
Sole proprietors who apply for an FFL will undergo a background check during the application process.
If a corporation is issued the FFL, and an officer, manager, employee, etc wants a gun he cannot convert "business guns" to "personal guns" without completing a 4473/NICS on himself. He is treated just like any customer. Any state laws would also be in effect.

...Your house is subject to search by ATF...
:banghead:No, only the dealers records and inventory are subject to INSPECTION during the ONE compliance inspection ATF is permitted each YEAR. ATF doesn't get to search your sock drawer whenever they feel like it.
Where do you get this rubbish?:scrutiny:

Shadow 7D
March 17, 2012, 03:07 PM
Dog Town, I understand that, BUT, much like the NRA-ILA breifing on FFL compliance inspection (that a FFL III STILL MUST COMPLY WITH**** <<<<----- except you get some VERY important conditions)

If the business premises is your home, the difficulty that many have encountered is that you have two ATF Industry INSPECTORS and a AGENT or two, so while the inspectors are sitting down with you going through the guns and paperwork, the AGENT is busy violating your 4ht Amendment rights.

The ILA briefing pointed out that you ONLY are required to allow INDUSTRY in, the agents need a search warrant. They advised slamming the door in their face if the Agents refused to listen to a trespass warning, in that ONLY the inspectors may come in.

Now for the stars
first, my understanding of all OTHER FFL's except 3's is that they are supposed to be inspected once a year, but may be inspected more often (as in they can do one anytime they feel - within business hours)

A C&R may be inspected once a year...
AND you don't have to let them in your home, rather you can call them and make an appointment to meet the industry inspector at the closest ATF field office and bring your book and collection there.

Bubbles
March 17, 2012, 03:27 PM
I have a home-based Type 07 FFL w/ Class 2 SOT.

We had an unannounced compliance inspection a few weeks ago. Only one inspector showed up. No agents showed up. The inspector stayed only in the home office during the inspection, which took a total of 3 days.

This was our third inspection in four years, and all of them followed the same process. By law we can only get one a year UNLESS are books are in such bad shape that ATF can justify additional inspections - it's basically the first step toward "clean up your act or we will pull your license".

The Lone Haranguer
March 17, 2012, 03:28 PM
If you want to make a true business out of it, sure. But the fees and paperwork (at both the federal and local level), and the cost of purchasing/renting/maintaining facilities far offset the cost savings of being able to buy firearms wholesale.

InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 04:36 PM
Davek, I read the link and even then its all rather vague. One thing I don't understand is you say Mosin Nagants are C&R firearms yet my brother has purchased two and I know for a fact he doesn't have a C&R license. On top of that my step father has purchased one without a Type 03 FFL. There must be an aspect to the Type 03 FFL that I don't know about or understand yet, because if you can purchase C&R firearms such as the Mosin without an FFL what's the point in having one?

Jorg Nysgerrig
March 17, 2012, 04:44 PM
It's really not that complicated.

The C&R FFL simply lets you buy C&R firearms in interstate commerce without going through an FFL in your state. In other words, they can be shipped directly to you. One can certainly buy C&R firearms without the 03 FFL, but one must go through a local FFL for the transfer.

InfamousLegend
March 17, 2012, 05:51 PM
Ahh I see, that's the part I was missing.

dogtown tom
March 17, 2012, 06:18 PM
Shadow 7D Dog Town, I understand that, BUT, much like the NRA-ILA breifing on FFL compliance inspection (that a FFL III STILL MUST COMPLY WITH**** <<<<----- except you get some VERY important conditions)

If the business premises is your home, the difficulty that many have encountered is that you have two ATF Industry INSPECTORS and a AGENT or two, so while the inspectors are sitting down with you going through the guns and paperwork, the AGENT is busy violating your 4ht Amendment rights.
No kidding.:rolleyes:
I responded to a post that claimed ATF has the right to search your home...they don't and cannot without a search warrant obtained for probable cause.

IOI's (Industry Operations Investigators) conduct compliance inspections....ATF Agents conduct criminal investigations. If you have an Agent asking to search your home he damn well better have a warrant....and you better have a lawyer. Agents don't just show up for a typical compliance inspection unless there is a suspicion of criminal activity by the dealer.

walker77
March 18, 2012, 12:27 AM
I just got my FFL about a month ago. I sell guns out of my house. Unless you can prove to the ATF that you are in it to make a profit, you wont get it.

I cant believe it cost that much money to get up and going in California. I was complaining because i had to spend about 2k to get up and running.

There isnt much mark up in new guns. You are better off finding good deals on new guns or buying used.

My first month, i only made 400 dollars profit. That is far more than i expected to make my first month. I figured it would be a year before i would start making that much each month. I knew i wouldnt make much selling guns. But if i can make enough to make a new truck payment and maybe buy me a new gun every once and a while, ill be happy.

I realize this doesnt pertain to this threat too much. But im posting this for anyone else that is considering getting their FFL.

And yes, its possible to still get a home based FFL. I just did it. But it also helps that the suburb i live in has several gun nuts for city councilmen. And the main hang up that people have is home owners associations and city zoning. I live in a suburb of kansas city. And we are on the very south side of the city, pretty much in the country. My town can really care less what kind of business i run out of my house as long as i dont open a walmart in my garage.

Hope this helps anyone thinking about getting a FFL. Especially a home based FFL.

Shadow 7D
March 18, 2012, 06:09 PM
Home based FFL's locally tend to specialize in one of 3 things
highend custom guns (bolt and semi)
specialized gunsmithing, such as refinishing
and transfers/higher volume - low markup sales, I know of two that will show you dealers invoice, and they do the math infront of you, their cost + 10%

gym
March 19, 2012, 06:03 PM
Walker hit it right on the head. My HOA, shut my plan right down, so did the County. I would have to rent a space zoned for commercial. Between alarms safes a phone ,and rent. It is too much money to do as a retired guy. Doing it from home would have cut out any extra overhead, and the need to travel back and forth for deliveries and sales, aside from sitting around a unit of some type, waiting for a client who may not show up.

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