Maryland CCW Bill SB137


Austin Charles
February 13, 2004, 02:35 PM
It is scheduled for March 17,2004 at 1:00pm

2004 Regular Session bill information current as of February 13, 2004 - 1:43 a.m.
Sponsors Title Synopsis History Sponsor List Subjects Statutes Documents Up to the Minute Another Bill

File Code: Public Safety
Sponsored By:
Senators Mooney, Brinkley, Colburn, Greenip, Haines, Harris, Hooper, Jacobs, Jimeno, Klausmeier, Stoltzfus, and Stone
Self-Defense Act - Rule of Law


Altering specified requirements for the issuance of handgun permits; repealing the requirement that the Secretary of State Police find that an applicant seeking a permit has a good and substantial reason to wear, carry, or transport a handgun; establishing a 45-day period within which the Secretary must issue a permit to carry a handgun after an application is approved; requiring that an individual be certified by a qualified handgun instructor before receiving a permit; etc.


History by Legislative Date
Senate Action
First Reading Judicial Proceedings
Hearing 3/17 at 1:00 p.m.
House Action
No Action


Sponsored by:
Senator Alexander X. Mooney, District 3
Senator David R. Brinkley, District 4
Senator Richard F. Colburn, District 37
Senator Janet Greenip, District 33
Senator Larry E. Haines, District 5
Senator Andrew P. Harris, District 7
Senator J. Robert Hooper, District 35
Senator Nancy Jacobs, District 34
Senator Philip C. Jimeno, District 31
Senator Katherine Klausmeier, District 8
Senator J. Lowell Stoltzfus, District 38
Senator Norman R. Stone, Jr., District 6

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February 13, 2004, 02:43 PM
Four of the sponsors are on the Senate Judiciary Committee - Haines, Jimeno, Jacobs and Mooney.

It's quite unfortunate who the other SJC members are....(Actually , Brochin's on our side, and sometimes Gianetti)....

Austin Charles
February 13, 2004, 02:45 PM
So what do you think our chances are?

February 13, 2004, 03:28 PM
Virtually none.

As much as even >I< hate to admit it, Maryland isn't ready for mass concealed carry by citizens. Too many people without proper training carrying guns all at once? Not a good idea (Of course, every Maryland THR member should get an automatic permit!) Starting perhaps with several counties, and having those counties' crime numbers in our favor will go a long way towards restoring our rights statewide.....but I think even the State Police would be against us on this one, if only due to the increased workload they would have to assume.

As my brother once said, carrying guns isn't part of Maryland's heritage as it is in midwestern states. People out west have a much better chance of growing up around guns (albeit more rifles and shotguns) and they don't have fear and ignorance of guns like people in Nanny states, like Maryland.

I'd like to see it, but I can't imagine seeing it any time soon. MAybe these bills are bargaing chips for other issues, who knows?:rolleyes:

February 13, 2004, 04:04 PM
Eh... what the heck. Been writing/calling for the past couple of weeks. Might as well keep going with it.


February 13, 2004, 04:07 PM

These bills show a change in the way Marylanders feel about gun laws and even personal rights in general. The more support we continue to show for these things, the better are chances are of seeing some change. It may take a looooooong time, but it's certainly worth a few minutes a week to send emails, faxes and letters and to make a few phone calls.

Austin Charles
February 13, 2004, 04:33 PM
Well, I just got off of the phone with a County. Swat team officer, he said that he would mark his calender and for me to e-mail him the info and he would summit it to his friends at work.

He also said that their is a lot more police officers in AA Co. and Balt. Co that would like to see this happen,than we think. He has told me that before.

He also brought up the HB218 that is nation wide for police, they really want that. I said that if they could keep a good fight up for guns in Maryland that then all of the bad mouth talk that you hear about " why should they get the right and not us" could get all of us on the same page.We root for them and they root for us.

But I still think that even if it is a slim shot, if they keep seeing all the voters showing up for these bills than they might start to pick their fights rather than keep trying to add law after law after law. especially if they see that the police are not as for banning guns as they thought.

He said that he would go and speak for the Bill, but he could not say that he was their on behalf of his department. Never the less police are police and having them on our side doen't hurt.

Standing Wolf
February 13, 2004, 04:58 PM
Too many people without proper training carrying guns all at once? Not a good idea...

Where's it say that in the Second Amendment?

February 13, 2004, 05:06 PM
It doesn't.

But if you don't live here, you have no idea.

The Second Amendment means nothing here. There is no provision in the state constitution for the RKBA. And there's too much ignorance in this state to even have the basic right to self defense.

In order to win our rights back, it'll have to be a small step at a time, or else the anti's will seize on every imbecile who drops, brandishes, or has a ND with his/her gun.

So I stand by my statement. I'm not ready for everybody to start carrying. As long as it takes for our rights to be restored, it'll take ONE incident to have them revoked. THAT is why it's not a good idea.

I live here, so I'll do it my way.

February 13, 2004, 05:18 PM
Furthermore, for those of you not in was a major victory this week for to homeowners who shot intruders in their homes to NOT be indicted.

Yes, that's right in ladies and gentlemen, in this fair state...if you are threatened in your own home and have to use a firearm to defend your is likely that YOU will go to jail.

This week showed a 180 degree change in that policy for these two homeowners.

February 13, 2004, 06:28 PM
Spot77, what do you consider to be proper training? The bill says that the applicant would have to be certified by an NRA Certified handgun instructor.

February 13, 2004, 07:16 PM
Yup, I'm down with that for the most part.

People can be taught how to handle and fire a gun, but I'm not sure that makes them "responsible" with it.

I consider myself among the safest shooters, but I don't know if that makes me a great candidate to carry a gun every day. Hopefully I'll be smart enough to know, should the option ever become available.

February 13, 2004, 07:50 PM
First of all. Even if MD goes shall issue, statistically speaking, no one is getting permits. Maybe less than one half of one percent. And that self selected minority are going to be the serious gun owners that are willing to jump through a whole heck of a lot of hoops to get one. Honestly (if I feared permit holders) I'd fear gun-ho texans with permits moreso than the forty or fifty MD permit holders this law would empower.
Merely Generalizing a little, all of the 'eww guns are icky' liberals I've taken to the range and taught to shoot I would trust far more than the adult whose father 'taught him how to shoot guns'...and constantly muzzles their friends and has their fingers inside the trigger guards.


February 13, 2004, 08:03 PM
This thread perplexes me:confused:

Austin Charles
February 13, 2004, 08:39 PM
This really is not the point,

I feel if we the gun owners keep showing strong support then maybe just maybe, they will not jump at every chance to put a new gun law on the books. Instead they will start enforcing the laws that they already have on criminals.

Another thing not everybody who shoots wants to carry a gun.I myself feel that it would be nice. I have carry permits and I do exercise my right in Penn. VA. Del. and whenever I go on vacation where one of the states allows me to.

But one thing is for sure, if we do not take advantage of who we have in office right now, we may never have a second chance. Then our gun rights will dissappear quickly.

February 14, 2004, 02:11 AM
Hey, don't get me wrong, there's lots of times when I'd like to carry.

The sad thing is that I'll probably be one of the few people from THR to actually show up and testify FOR the bill...I know of about 5 out of 30 Marylanders that can realistically make it.......

February 14, 2004, 11:53 AM
If this bill were to pass I'd be practicing much more and taking classses as often as I could afford to. The fact the MD isn't shall issue is the only reason I haven't attended the SigArm Academy yet.

If we were to go to shall issue I'd be attending their Concealed weapons courses and Advanced Concealed Carry Pistol as soon as I could. That's $1450 in training plus time off work, travel, and related expences.

I could only hope that anyone that has a carry permit takes it upon themselves to do the same.

February 14, 2004, 11:56 AM
Any chance for an out-of-state permit provision?


February 14, 2004, 03:48 PM
check out - if they are a strong as the (Virginia Citizens Defense League) they are all over this to get it passed. If they aren't strong, they need your help (and not necessarily your money).

Spot... not a flame, but we've found that permit holders - even new ones - are pretty responsible people.

Have faith, brother - and (e)mail/phone those blokes. We've found that solid reasoning set to words to be effective with fence-sitters and even antis. Honest praise for those on our side bolsters their spirit and gives them the strength and impetus to again go forth and persevere.

Member VCDL

February 14, 2004, 04:44 PM
Any chance for an out-of-state permit provision?

According to, there already is a provision for non-resident Maryland licenses. I have a feeling they're quite a bit more rare than the already rare resident licenses though.

February 14, 2004, 05:05 PM
"Spot... not a flame, but we've found that permit holders - even new ones - are pretty responsible people"

Oh I'd never take offense at anybody's reasonable opinion:D

I guess I'm not stating my opinion clearly; I do that quite often.

It's not the permit holders that I'm overly concerned about with their responsibilities per se.

The problem is that this state is SO bleeding heart liberal and the media is so bias in their reporting that ANY incident, no matter how small and irrelevant will be sensationalized to the extent that even the conservatives will start to believe that ccw is a bad thing.

So it isn't really the permit holders I would be concerned about (and especially the people who frequent forums such as THR), but that any rights we have restored will be taken away because some hick on the Eastern Shore got drunk and shot his neighbor's cat with his carry weapon. The Anti's would seize on this and I swear that before they're finished with it, we'd end up with a complete ban on handguns altogether (btw, this was stated as one of their ultimate goals at the Senate Judiciary hearing on the proposed Md AWB.....Senate Bill 288, which I testified in opposition to).

CCW in Maryland has to be a slow process. As Jeepdriver stated about his desired training, there's a lot more to carrying a firearm than just knowing how to handle it safely. There's situational awareness, the legality of brandishing it, when and where you can carry....and tons more that I don't know about....well....cuz' I can't ccw.

It's not that I'm against ccw in Md....not at all...I'm all for it. Sadly enough, I'll probably be one of the few here at THR to take the day off work and testify in favor of the bill. It's that we shouldn't expect that we'll successfully pull this off overnight and have every applicant carrying within a year. The media won't allow it, the soccer moms won't allow it, and the liberal lawmakers in the rich districts won't allow it. They'll counter with legislation even more draconian that New York City or Washington DC and I fear that in the end, we'll lose more than we gain.

February 14, 2004, 05:37 PM
Well, I know timing is almost everything in marketing - and marketing is what this is... al ot of facts, experiences, and just a bit of scary re the BG world can, if not educate, at least expose, the populace.

But, my bother in arms, it seems to me you have a bit of ingrained negativism. States all around you are going, or have gone, shall issue. Lest MD fall behind, it shall be an island unto itself, It will find that personal, public, defense, and economic issues will negatively affect it.

People are leaving MD, some of them because it's dangerous and stifling in more ways than one. My friend moved to AZ last summer... some of his kids are inprogress to join he and his wife.

BTW, he and his wife are now free to own firearms and has now an H&K in .40 w/ a tack light. They both go to ranges, and she will have her own pistol/wheel gun soon. He even bought a BumbleBee for the yard ogres.

Please... perk up. Positives will outweigh negatives with some effort.

The country needs MD to join the CCH union.


February 17, 2004, 10:18 AM
Has any MD org taken the lead on getting organized for the hearing?


- Have MD LEO's show up in support
- Maybe have some PA and VA LEO's come to Annapolis to testify about the fact that crime has not been increasing in their states/jursidictions after going fair-issue
- Has the FOP decided to testify for this one?

February 17, 2004, 11:06 AM
Well, first of all I plan on attending on March 17 and to speak as well. My argument for shall-issue? I am a 60 year old male with three artifical joints and would have little or no chance of surviving a violent encounter. During 2003 I had 24 hours of classroom and range instruction from ComTac, a Maryland based shooting school. After listening to the "Rules of engagement" you are likely to try and avoid an encounter rather than seek it out. But, at least I know what is and isn't legal.

February 17, 2004, 05:39 PM
There's a lot more to it than 'will the Legislature pass it?". Equally important, is "will the guv sign it" and if not, "can the Legislature override the veto?". Then the question becomes, "will the state supreme court support the new law after the inevitable lawsuit by the anti's?". It's a long process, and it usually takes more than one bill and one governor to accomplish. You need to elect the right representatives, the right governor and the right Supreme Court justices, and do it all at the same time. It can take years to pull that off in an anti state, and it takes deep cooperation.

You need to be able to deliver (or withhold) large numbers of votes. When you start affecting people's careers, they start listening.

February 17, 2004, 09:52 PM
I feel that you cast Texas permit holders in an unfair light.

And to speak to the many concerns that people have about Maryland
going shall issue, aren't these the same concerns raised by people in
other shall issue states before the passage of their own carry laws. IE:
people slapping leather at the drop of a hat, bullets flying in the streets.
Haven't these fears gone mostly unrealized. I think It's a certain type of
person that will seek a permit, one that you probably will not have to
worry about. Take heart fellas.

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