[BluedRevolver]

I heard a guy in the gun store the other day talking about how he uses a tanker Garand for home defense. He said he uses reduced power loads with fast expanding bullets and that the penetration isn't much more than comparable self defense hand gun bullets. He also said he lives out in the country.

Got me thinking... would an M1 Garand tanker (18" bbl) really outdated as a rifle for "Self Defense" applications such as home defense, property defense, "Katrina" scenarios, and a truck gun? A lot of people have 10rd SKS's as their "go to" rifle. The SKS is decently heavy and long and only holds 2 more rounds with stock mags.

Sure, an AR15 might be more practical, but wouldn't 8 rounds of low penetrating 30-06 in a 18" barreled Garand be a pretty good "go to" rifle?


EDIT: The guy said his loads were 150 grain JHP's going 2600 fps. He said he had over 1k rounds reliably through the rifle with these loads, apparently thanks to some gas adjustment thing. (Honestly, the guy could be full of BS for all I know, but it's interesting nonetheless.)

[dprice3844444]

he just better make sure those light loads will cycle,otherwise the garand is a good hd gun outside of the house.12 or 20 gauge better for inside.

[nathan]

If its country , all bets are off. Make sure your neighbors is a mile away buffered with trees in between. Always be aware the possibility of friendlies being hit not only the bad guys. We owe that responsibility as good guys.

[RPRNY]

The Garand has pretty unique load and ammo requirements, as referenced above. While in theory the platform that he discusses sounds a good one, finding a powder and bullet combo mentioned above that will work reliably may prove a challenge.

[lefteyedom]

I like shooting the old Grand as much as anyone but it would not be my go-to home defense rifle. Yes Mr. Eastwood character in Gran-Torino did a great job of yard defense with a beautiful M1.

A M1 Carbine would be a better in the house home defense rifle.

A M1A would be a better weapon for home defense for all the reason that US Army developed the M14

Yes it would do the job/// there are just better rifles now

[RickMD]

Garands don't function with reduced loads. They were designed to operate with a 150 grain bullet at approximately 2700 fps. The guy at the gun store is sadly mistaken.

[Averageman]

But there is NO better rifle for a butt stroke to the chin while singing;
"and the teeth go 'round and 'round and they come out here."
If thats what you got, use it; just be aware of your backstop.

[Vern Humphrey]

Two problems -- tanker version (these are all chopped originals -- there never was an official "tanker verrsion and only a handful of experimental short rifles) and low velocity loads. Neither one makes for the kind of reliability I'd want in a self-defense situation.

I'll stick with my Ithaca 37 with a 20" barrel.

[BluedRevolver]

Garands don't function with reduced loads. They were designed to operate with a 150 grain bullet at approximately 2700 fps. The guy at the gun store is sadly mistaken.


I have nothing vested in believing the fellow, but he did say that he has some kind of gas adjustment thing from Fulton Armory that makes his loads cycle reliably. He said he had over a thousand rounds through it with those loads, no malfunctions.

I too live out in the country, my nearest neighbor is about 3 miles away. I'm about 10 miles out of town.

As of right now I use an AR15 for home defense, though a hard hitting .30 caliber like a 30-06 would be pretty comforting to grab when I hear a bump in the middle of the night. I know most recommend shotguns, but I'm just more of a rifle guy.

[TexasPatriot.308]

there's a whole lot more practical choices.

[dcarch]

^This. I could use a TC Contender for a home defense handgun, but there are better options.

[Robbins290]

i have a 1934 m1 garand. i reloaded some light loads for a younger shooter that wanted to try my trusty ol garand. it didnt have a issue, but i only shot 8 rounds out of it. i think they were 125 grain fmj's

[Snowdog]

I'd also rather use an M1 carbine for home defense. With 110gr Speer Gold Dot, the .30 carbine is a serious contender for that purpose.

However, if I chose to use a Garand for home defense, I would research whether I could replicate appropriate operating pressures by handloading some rapidly expanding bullet in the 110gr - 125gr range. I do believe such rounds would do some crazy sick amounts of tissue damage/blood loss.

[FlyinBryan]

i have a 1934 m1 garand.

did you mean 1943?

[Redlg155]

Other than the length of tbe weapon, why not? The catridge is just a couple hundred fps faster than the. 308 and with the correct loads, less.

It seems that .308 entry length rifles are the craze with the Socom, Scout and DSA Para Fals leading the way. Manufacturers are also offering 16" barrel
308 ARs as well. Load some good frangible ammo and you have a decent HD weapon.

The other thought is that the Garand Era shooters are "gravel bellies" and not spray and pray. Accuracy was at a premium in those days, hence the decreased risk of an errant shot

[BluedRevolver]

The other thought is that the Garand Era shooters are "gravel bellies" and not spray and pray. Accuracy was at a premium in those days, hence the decreased risk of an errant shot


It would seem to me that 8 shots of 30-06 would be more than enough. Many people use 1911's for their main home defense weapon which holds 9 rounds at most (unless you bump up to 10 round mags), and most shotguns hold 8 or less.

Plus, a reload is a cinch with the en bloc clips, though you can't do "+1".

[bigfatdave]

Not my first choice, but there's nothing wrong with it so long as it functions. Loading those en-bloc clips in a hurry can be done, but it takes practice.

I'd want detachable megazines, lighter weight, higher capacity, and I wouldn't worry about anything past 100 yards (hell, past 50 is pushing it) ... so essentially I'd want an M1 Carbine ... ...
...
... Hey, wait ... I am using an M1 Carbine for that job! Loaded up with soft points from PPU, mine functions perfectly and I even have a stabby handy next to it if the mood should strike.

But I've always wanted a Tanker Garand, the original configuration is just a bit overly heavy and long for my preferences, whatever purists think about it, it is a great infantry rifle but a less-than-ideal personal weapon.

[rodregier]

Give some thought to active hearing protection to go with that rifle. Ever fired a short-barrelled .30-06 or AR15 in .223 Rem indoors?

Peltor MT15H7F SV Tactical Pro Hearing Protector is very nice.

http://www.amazon.com/MT15H7F-SV-Tactical-Hearing-Protector/dp/B0006968YM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8

[Sheepdog1968]

I would sleep soundly at night having this as my primary defensive weapon. it worked well in the 1940s and I am sure it would work just fine today as well.

[Robbins290]

Yes, i meant to type 1943 instead of 1934.

[HankB]

From an 18" barrel, a 150@2600 isn't much reduced from the load the M1 was designed to work with - whoever built the "tanker" could easily have set it up to work with that ammo. Though I don't know off the top of my head who makes a .30 caliber 150 JHP, at 2600 there's plenty of power for dealing with two legged predators.

In competent hands, eight rounds will suffice for 99.99+% of self defense situations.

An M1 tanker wouldn't be my first choice - muzzle blast indoors would be damaging - but I'd take it over an M1 carbine with ball ammo.

[35 Whelen]

It's funny how these days folks equate home defense to high capacity magazines. My nearest firearm in the house is a Ruger Security Six. It never occured to me that I might need to fire more than six rounds.
I wouldn't hesitate to use the Garand, and if I were on the business end when someone began shooting, I wouldn't hesitate to leave.
As someone once said, large capacity magazines are really only necessary if you plan to miss alot.

35W

[theicemanmpls]

Mr. Kowalski used a M1 to keep rowdy immigrants off his manicured lawn.

[velocette]

M1 as a home defense rifle. BAD idea. The bad guys would just wait
until they heard the "PING" of the clip being ejected & then rush you.
:D

Roger

[Art Eatman]

Sure, there are handier weapons, but for a rural residence, a full-size Garand oughta work pretty much as well as anything. And I've never found mine to be unduly awkward in my pickup. About the only reason I prefer my GI Carbine is the weight, not the length.

[Espada]

How many modern "bad guys" would recognize the sound ? : )

[GCBurner]

How many modern "bad guys" would recognize the sound ? : )
How many guys could still hear ANYTHING after 8 rounds of .30-06 were fired off in close proximity?

[BluedRevolver]

How many guys could still hear ANYTHING after 8 rounds of .30-06 were fired off in close proximity?


How many guys get shot at but not hit with 8 rounds of 30-06 indoors? 30-06 turns cover into concealment!

[Andrew Wyatt]

a tanker is smaller than my 20" mossberg.

Holds the same number of rounds, recoils a little less, and it's a semi-auto.

An AR-15 would be a better choice, though.

[DeMilled]

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii134/desertford/get_fce9d8_832636.jpg

[tarosean]

I live rural too. However I'm not firing an 06 in my house. Crazy crazy....

[theicemanmpls]

M1 as a home defense rifle. BAD idea. The bad guys would just wait
until they heard the "PING" of the clip being ejected & then rush you.
:D

Roger
My father served in Korea, 1st Cav.
I asked him about the "ping", and the enemy rushing in when the M1 made that noise. He said, "most of the gun fights were at distances more then 50 yards. The troopers wished the bad guys would come out of hiding and would rush them if they heard "pings". Would of sent more china men to their maker" His words.

I think the ping rush was great in the movies. But in real battle didn't happen that much.

[BluedRevolver]

My father served in Korea, 1st Cav.
I asked him about the "ping", and the enemy rushing in when the M1 made that noise. He said, "most of the gun fights were at distances more then 50 yards. The troopers wished the bad guys would come out of hiding and would rush them if they heard "pings". Would of sent more china men to their maker" His words.

I think the ping rush was great in the movies. But in real battle didn't happen that much.


Yup. If I was a Jap or Chinaman or Korean (or anything else for that matter!) I wouldn't have the guts to rush Americans as soon as I heard a ping. Surely there'd be at least 2 other guys with fully loaded Garands for every man that "ping'd"

[P-32]

M1 as a home defense rifle. BAD idea. The bad guys would just wait
until they heard the "PING" of the clip being ejected & then rush you.

I highly doubt any bad guy would know what the sound of an ejecting clip would sound like anyways. If the Garand was the only thing handy at the time, then so be it. It's better than nothing. I just can't stand the "Tankers". There were only about four proto types built, they were a failure then as they are now. :barf:

I figure if it took more than 8 rounds of ’06 to make a bad guy want to leave, I might be in trouble. Not because I needed to reload but rather because of the bad guys apparent resolve. :eek:

I don’t agree a Garand is hard to reload; it does half the work for you. A person isn’t going to be particularly fast with an unpracticed mag change either.

[dmazur]

...gas adjustment thing from Fulton Armory that makes his loads cycle reliably.

A bit of truth buried in this, somewhere. Yes, there are a few different patterns of adjustable gas cylinder lock screw (aka gas plug) available. However, none of them can make a smaller impulse larger. They all are designed to moderate the high pressure at the gas port created by commercial ammo so it does not bend the op-rod (or batter the receiver heel.)

However, this does not mean that someone could not create a reduced powder/bullet combination that had the required 8000 psi or so at the gas port. It would not have been in the military's interest to go in that direction, as they were looking for long range performance.

I have read of folks shooting lead bullets, at reduced velocities, with a M1 Garand.

I'd have to agree with the majority of comments on this, however. Unless the Garand is the only gun you have, there are far, far better choices for home defense.

(And just because I presently have mine set up with an Eotech on a scout mount doesn't mean I'm planning on shooting zombies... :) )

[Vern Humphrey]

M1 as a home defense rifle. BAD idea. The bad guys would just wait
until they heard the "PING" of the clip being ejected & then rush you.
Dead men can't hear the "PING." Live men can't get to their feet before there's anther clip in the rifle.

[dprice3844444]

http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/the-mini-g/ mini garand

[BBDartCA]

http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/the-mini-g/ mini garand
I have a Shuffs mini G. After handling it one of the first thoughts I had is that this would be a great house clearing weapon.

The shorter barrel of the Shuffs or tanker can let you get away with lighter loads, but not that light. Using standard USGI M2 ammo, you need to bleed quite a bit of pressure off the Shuffs with a Shuster plug to prevent opp rod damage, for example.

Unless your home is made of cinder blocks or you live alone in the sticks, thats just too much lead plowing through potentially innocent things for me to be comfortable with.

Plus the short barrel Garand is LOUD. Flash is huge. Overkill for HD.

[Flatbush Harry]

I recently parted ways with a SOCOM16 M1A, leaving me with my Garands, a Supermatch M1A and an AR15A2 for what might be termed home defense or defensive rifles (I actually use them for high-power mil. rifle matches). I would feel comfortable with the M1s or M1A in any situation. The full size versions are the same size and weight with a loaded Garand a bit lighter than a loaded M1A because of the smaller capacity. As to reloading speed, I can probably reload a Garand more quickly than an M1A because it kicks the clip free whereas I have to remove the empty mag from the M1A in two movements, put in the new one in two movements and work the action while the Garand requires one move.

In all, I would be happy with a Garand and would not reduce its reliability by building a "Tanker" version, though if such is desired, Tim Schuff is a fine smith and builder thereof.

FH

[Cosmoline]

There's nothing wrong with the .30'06 for defensive use. With a high velocity light expanding round it's going to make quick work of anything. Overpenetration concerns are overplayed when it comes to rifles and underestimated when it comes to handguns. Slow and big handgun rounds will typically pose a far greater threat than supersonic expanding rifle rounds. And they're more likely to miss and go flying off lord knows where.

The Garand, however, has some drawbacks as a home defense firearm. The safety catch is not the best design for this purpose, and it was not really designed to be toted or stowed with one in the chamber. I could see a potential ND there with one's finger poking around the trigger area trying to engage or disengage a safety in the middle of a rather tense situation. If you do go down that path, I'd suggest using Israeli presentation methods and IGNORING the safety. Just chamber if the need arises. After the threat has resolved one way or the other, carefully eject the live rounds entirely in the accepted fashion for Garands. Never even touch anything around the trigger.

It's also heavy and bulky even in "tanker" format. There's no real place to mount lights or optics without mods. And the action is designed to work within pretty narrow confines of ball ammo without tweaking. I don't know how reliable it would be with some kind of alternative light high speed ammo or slower home defense ammo.

In short, it can be done but there are better long gun options. I'd rather have a Mauser or Mosin if it came down to using a war rifle for defense. Lighter, better places for a light with a barrel clamp, no pressure issues to worry about, reliable feeding, etc.

[RPRNY]

I say, that Shuff's Mag fed Mini G is the business. What a great weapon.

[dmazur]

...I just keep my finger outside the trigger guard until ready to fire. ( :) )

Seriously, even with gloves, I haven't had any trouble. Fumbling inside with safety on doesn't do anything. Trigger and hammer are locked. Once you push forward, you'd best get your finger (or thumb) outside the guard, however.

Putting safety on is fairly positive, as long as you don't get careless and slip off the front of the trigger guard. I put a finger all the way across. No "fingertip" stuff here.

I understand there was a winter trigger mod for Korea that allowed use of mittens, but I wouldn't recommend that for normal use. I can see that being difficult to avoid accidental activation, being outside the trigger guard -

http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/accessoryhtml/accwintertrig.html

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Federal loads a 150gr VMAX in .30-06. With an adjustable gas plug so you don't bend the oprod, you can have a round that will make BIG holes in gel, while penetrating about the same as many .223 loads. Having said that, I don't have the first clue how it performs outside of bare gel.

[treeprof]

Federal loads a 150gr VMAX in .30-06

Hmm, I'm not familiar with this one. Federal makes a 150 gr FMJ Garand load (and a few other 150 gr .30-06 loads), but the V-max is a Hornady bullet, and only comes in 110 gr in .30 cal. Hornady loads a 168 gr A-max round for the Garand. A bit pricey, but it's good stuff.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

My bad, I use a lot of Hornady stuff so I tend to call all varmint-type bullets "VMAX" regardless of who actually made them. The Federal load actually uses the Nosler Ballistic Tip. The load is Federal Premium P3006P (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=265).

[Andrew Wyatt]

The Garand, however, has some drawbacks as a home defense firearm. The safety catch is not the best design for this purpose, and it was not really designed to be toted or stowed with one in the chamber.

There is physically no way to carry a garand with ammunition loaded in it without one in the chamber without handling the gun in a dangerous manner or having a bolt over base malfunction.


I could see a potential ND there with one's finger poking around the trigger area trying to engage or disengage a safety in the middle of a rather tense situation. If you do go down that path, I'd suggest using Israeli presentation methods and IGNORING the safety. Just chamber if the need arises. After the threat has resolved one way or the other, carefully eject the live rounds entirely in the accepted fashion for Garands. Never even touch anything around the trigger.

If you are taking it off safe, you are ready to fire. if you are putting it on safe, your finger is not in the triggerguard.

[USSR]

Wrong M1 for self defense:

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/WinM1A.jpg

Right M1 for self defense:

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/M1A1A.jpg

Don

[wombat13]

Wrong M1 for self defense:

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/WinM1A.jpg

Right M1 for self defense:

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/M1A1A.jpg

Don
Is the second one a paratrooper model?

[Cosmoline]

There is physically no way to carry a garand with ammunition loaded in it without one in the chamber without handling the gun in a dangerous manner or having a bolt over base malfunction.

I mean toted or stowed *safely* with one in the chamber. The only safety is a catch near your trigger finger. It's fine for combat, but in the middle of a dicey self defense situation when you cannot have an ND it's far from ideal. Not impossible to use, esp. if you're used to it. But not the best. It's in front of the trigger and pulls back in the same direction as the trigger. Plus it's not in visual sight, so you have to feel around with your finger--next to the trigger--to know if it's engaged or not!

[Andrew Wyatt]

When are you putting a gun on safe while under stress?

[USSR]

Is the second one a paratrooper model?

Yep, upgraded into the 21st Century with an EoTech sight. But any M1 Carbine model is hands-down better suited for a self defense role than a M1 Garand, and I have 3 Garands.

Don

[wombat13]

I mean toted or stowed *safely* with one in the chamber. The only safety is a catch near your trigger finger. It's fine for combat, but in the middle of a dicey self defense situation when you cannot have an ND it's far from ideal. Not impossible to use, esp. if you're used to it. But not the best. It's in front of the trigger and pulls back in the same direction as the trigger. Plus it's not in visual sight, so you have to feel around with your finger--next to the trigger--to know if it's engaged or not!

Wrong. You push the safety forward, away from the trigger to take it off. The safety is only inside the trigger guard while it is on.

That is, unless my particular Garand is different from all the others.

[dmazur]

There probably aren't a lot of WWII / Korean vets around who can attest to the Garand safety, but I haven't read about that as a problem the Garand had.

And, since Ruger's Mini-14 copied a lot of the Garand / M14 design, including the safety, I haven't read about that rifle having a problem with its safety, either.

As already said, you push the safety away from the trigger to disengage. It takes a little effort to do with the back of your index finger, but it can be done readily enough if you want the safety off. I think it might have been made relatively difficult to move on purpose...

As far as pulling the safety toward the trigger to engage, you can use your entire hand, sliding it down the rifle, if you are concerned about a finger slipping off the front edge of the trigger guard. Nothing gets near the trigger using this technique.

And, check the front edge of the trigger guard by "feel" to see if you can feel the safety. No sharp edge - nothing but smooth guard? Safety's on. Don't check inside the trigger guard. (Rule 3 :) )

[Welding Rod]

The safety catch is not the best design for this purpose, and it was not really designed to be toted or stowed with one in the chamber.

The Garand safety cams the hammer back off the hooks and then provides a positive restraint for the hammer. The beefy safety would have to fail and then the hammer hooks would have to fail too for the hammer to fall on a loaded round. Seems like a very safe system to me.

To another poster: The Garand can be loaded with up to 7 rounds in the magwell and be kept with an empty chamber.

[Andrew Wyatt]

To another poster: The Garand can be loaded with up to 7 rounds in the magwell and be kept with an empty chamber.

you lose a round of capacity, and you have to do a lot of gyration to get the bolt to ride over the round.

just loading it is easier and safer.

[Cosmoline]

You push the safety forward, away from the trigger to take it off.

And you squeeze it back to engage it. The same basic motion as pulling a trigger, but slightly forward of the trigger. You don't find that a potential problem for someone who may not be as familiar with the firearm as you are? At three AM when someone is running around?

I would not call it defective or inherently dangerous, but it is designed for use during military conflicts not for home defense. For someone familiar with and comfortable with the platform I'm sure it's fine. But it's a point against the rifle for that purpose.

Not to mention the issues of Garand Thumb if you're fumbling around with a clip.

[Andrew Wyatt]

If you're using a gun you're unfamiliar with for HD, you are doing something wrong.

[wombat13]

And you squeeze it back to engage it. The same basic motion as pulling a trigger, but slightly forward of the trigger. You don't find that a potential problem for someone who may not be as familiar with the firearm as you are? At three AM when someone is running around?

I would not call it defective or inherently dangerous, but it is designed for use during military conflicts not for home defense. For someone familiar with and comfortable with the platform I'm sure it's fine. But it's a point against the rifle for that purpose.

Not to mention the issues of Garand Thumb if you're fumbling around with a clip.
No I don't see a problem. If you are trying to put the safety on your hand is outside the trigger guard.

[dmazur]

The above post beat me to it -

You don't find that a potential problem for someone who may not be as familiar with the firearm as you are?

I don't have any firearms I'm not familiar with, and I would hope that someone planning a defensive response would also think about the wisdom of having a firearm for a "special" reason and never becoming familiar with it.

Given that level of preparedness, that same person wouldn't have to worry about how to use the safety, because he probably couldn't remember where he stashed the rifle. ( :) )

I believe the only valid argument I've encountered for "not familiar with the manual of arms" was some kind of justification for the Israeli draw. The way I remember the story, they had such an assortment of guns you couldn't be sure just what you were going to get, nor could you possibly become familiar with them all. So they decided on Condition 3 carry, and pull the slide back when you need to actually use it.

But a firearm that you get to select and practice with? No excuse for not being familiar with how to use it, in the dark, by feel.

[dmazur]

Not to mention the issues of Garand Thumb if you're fumbling around with a clip.

Garand Thumb occurs when someone is cleaning the rifle, or doing something rather military like an inspection procedure.

The bolt doesn't release until you remove pressure from the clip. When it does, it is busy carrying the round forward. There isn't room for your thumb...

Also, see above discussion on familiarity. If you are familiar with the Garand, there isn't any "fumbling" going on.

[4v50 Gary]

I don't like "Tankers" because their op-rod was never reengineered properly by the kitchen gunsmiths. I've a letter published in American Gunsmith (Jan 2012) that discusses the problems associated with the shortening of the barrel and op-rod. At least the Italians did it right with their BM-59 and reengineered it from ground up.

This curmudgeon's view on Tankers set aside, I think the M-1 beats a sharp pointy stick or shaking an angry fist, but it isn't my first choice. I want something lighter and easier to handle. The M-1 carbine fits the bill as does the Mini-14. However, any gun used in a shooting will be confiscated and held in storage until the home owner is cleared of criminal conduct. I'd rather use an SKS as they're cheaper (and I won't shed tears if it came back all scratched up from its stay in the evidence room).

There is a great letter in the April 2012 issue of American Rifleman. CW5 Charles Petrie, US Army, spoke with some German veterans of the Bulge. They laughed about the ping and said it was inaudible. Secondly, both sides used the ruse of working the action to induce their opponent to expose themselves and charge.

[Welding Rod]

To the original question, I would not choose a Garand for SD given the better choices out there, however I would feel completely confident in one as a SD weapon if that is what I had to use.

[1-12 INF (M)]

The problems with a shortened M1 are well documented here - if the M1 was designed to be short, John Garand would have designed it that way.
Lethal? You bet. But your bedroom isn't Normandy or Iwo Jima and the M1 is not optimized for that task.
Rest assured that nothing with two feet would be around to hear the 'ping', either.

[Obsidian]

As others have stated, a re-engineered M1 Rifle may not have the best reliability. Some folks say put 100 rounds though your SD weapon. Others say 250, 500, or 1000 to assure it will not malfunction. That's a lot of money on what is not well regarded to be a weapon that does not require a lot of puttering around with to make reliable.
And now as stated, yes it is better than loud words or a hope someone does not decide to harm you, but there are simply stated better tools for the job.

I love the M1 Rifle. Simply love it. If I had served in WW2 instead of Iraq I would have chose that rifle above all else for that conflict for going to battle with. However for today's tech there are far better options to be had for the same price range in my opinion. And this includes rifles, shotguns and handguns.

Again there just are better tools for the job for a multitude of reasons. There are going to be some that dispute this analogy I'm sure but you could pound a nail with a 10 pound sledge hammer. It will work, but there are better tools to do the job for -home- defense.

[opsman]

He may have what he calls a "tanker" M1, but as for using as a self defense rifle? I think he's full of it. The the two places where you can find more BS than the barnyard, the local bar, and a gun shop.

[Tim37]

its pretty dam hard to beat a pump shotgun for HD

[451 Detonics]

If you want to go short just have a Shuff conversion done...can even turn it into a magazine fed shorty...here is one compared to a M1 Carbine...

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/rifles/shuffmg.jpg