Should We "Brain Wash" People Against Guns?


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Bubba613
March 19, 2012, 09:34 AM
Eric Holder seems to think so.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/18/Holder-Outlines-How-To-Change-Public-Opinion-On-Guns

Now, if he's talking about glorifying violence I can agree with that. There's way too much of it. But Holder cannot separate guns for self defense, sport, hobby etc from violence.
Can we put forth positive messages about history and responsibility?

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Baba Louie
March 19, 2012, 09:56 AM
Can we put forth positive messages about history and responsibility?It is done every day on The High Road. The opposite holds true to some degree as well however, as "Gun Violence" or "Idiots w/ guns" are castigated here. Or maybe it is just stupidity and lack of responsibility that we castigate, as some "gun" violence might be applicable here and there once in a lifetime.

While I do hold the opinion that "some peoples kids" should not own firearms or even a sharpened No2 pencil or book of matches perhaps, I tend to keep quiet about it. Were I a political type who speaks in front of people trying to gather large sums of their money for my campaign coffers, I'd probably tell them what they want to hear as well, hoping to rake in some moola while making them "feel good".

What is sadly humorous (in a cynical fashion), is the whole F&F debacle happening under this man's watch in high office and no one can or will do a thing about it, even tho people have died as a result of his action (or inaction as it may be).

The War Wagon
March 19, 2012, 10:08 AM
The Battle of Athens is a TRUE story, btw. Read about it here;

http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm


Also, reprinted from the October 1995 issue of Guns & Ammo magazine, here;

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/athens.htm

Walkalong
March 19, 2012, 10:13 AM
This has been prevalent in the media for years. Anti gun sentiment in almost every show and "news" show on TV. If we keep putting certain folks in power it will only get worse. Can you imagine your kids having to attend "classes" specifically aimed at demonizing guns. Not far from it these days.

Just remember, gun control has nothing to do with guns per say, it is about control. people who want to disarm the populace, have plans for them they do not think they can succeed with unless they disarm them first.

If you think they care about crime, or a few accidents, you are grossly mistaken, but it makes for good politics. They can sell "guns are bad, they kill", but cannot sell, "we have to take them away so you cannot fight back".

90% or better of the politicians who are anti gun, are soft on criminals. Think about it.

22-rimfire
March 19, 2012, 11:09 AM
Holder said those things in 1995. I feel sure that stand endeared him to Obama and the liberal people forming the core of his electoral group and ultimately his "government". I believe Holder feels the same way today.

The Battle of Athens really happened. Some say McMinn County is still corrupt, but people say that about every county government. Folks talk about national politics as being all important, but the Federal Government is rooted in local politics and "community organizers". Who would have ever thought someone with a community organizing background could be elected president?

This is not so far from where the Scopes Trial (aka monkey trial) was held in Rhea County in 1925.

JFrame
March 19, 2012, 11:19 AM
Holder's statement, especially the blatant "brainwash" remark at the 3:10 point, would seem to help fortify the contention, and the belief held by many, that his Operation Fast & Furious fiasco was a callous and cynical effort to generate an anti-gun narrative, using gun-running in the southwest border as a pretext.


.

Rubikees
March 19, 2012, 08:51 PM
They know they have the teachers in their pockets so it is no problem to 'brainwash' the kids in any subject.

Ranger30-06
March 19, 2012, 09:09 PM
The REAL reason why statist libtards do NOT want us to KNOW, much less EXERCISE, our 2nd Amendment, AND other Constitutional liberties. :mad:


ncdXfUAkMUI


Look at what DEMOCRAPS did to the electorate 65 years ago, right AFTER WWII, in the rural south, no less - when they THOUGHT the people un-armed & un-willing to stand up for their right to VOTE!!! :fire:
Thank you for sharing this. It's the best 2A video I've ever seen.

parsimonious_instead
March 19, 2012, 10:04 PM
We've been winning our rights back little by little. However, we'll lose them in the long run unless we make an effort to pass on our shooting traditions and respect for the second amendment to the young people.
Taking them to a range and showing our kids, their friends, our nephews and nieces and grandchildren is the best antidote to this type of propaganda.
Feel free to call me off base on this, but there are two different "gun cultures" - the one of false machismo and 'gansterism' and the other one of pride, safety and responsibility.

Nushif
March 19, 2012, 10:21 PM
Not a lot of gun control talk going on here, but a lot of political talk.

The good news is that we are winning! By inviting EVERYONE to go shooting and by states unlocking MORE PEOPLE of ALL STRIPES to own guns. Sadly, established gun culture seems to hold that unless someone's pants aren't at a certain height or unless they vote non-"democrap" or non-"libtard" they don't get to play. But that's an entirely different fish of kettle.
Getting everyone on board I think won't be a problem with the legislature. It'll be a problem with us. but we are getting there. Very slowly.

Shear_stress
March 19, 2012, 10:39 PM
We don't need to "brain wash" anyone because logic is on our side. All people need is to have myths dispelled and emotional responses calmly allayed.

On the other hand, stuff like this may feel great but convince nobody:

The REAL reason why statist libtards do NOT want us to KNOW, much less EXERCISE, our 2nd Amendment, AND other Constitutional liberties...Look at what DEMOCRAPS did to the electorate 65 years ago, right AFTER WWII, in the rural south, no less - when they THOUGHT the people un-armed & un-willing to stand up for their right to VOTE!!!

In the late 1940s the South was almost totally Democratic as that was the party advocating for states' rights at the time. Plus, there was no way in hell most Southern folks were going to cast their votes for the Party of Lincoln. As for what "Libtards don't want you to know", is that supposed to imply that "An American Story" was some kind of subversive underground agitprop surrounded by a conspiracy of silence. . . when it actually was a mainstream, made for TV production produced by the same Hollywood constantly bashed here? Afterall, it aired on CBS in 1992.

Point being, let's spend less time throwing around labels that only alienate people and more time getting our message out constructively, not to mention accurately.

Driftertank
March 19, 2012, 10:39 PM
There's this inner-city image side of guns, popularized in large part through a combination of youthful rebellion and apathy on the part of the previous generation. There's a tough talking, take-no-crap-from-anyone bada$$ image that many young people aspire to, and it's fed through fear and insecurity that drives them to try and prove their toughness to all around them.

What i chose to try and embrace instead, and what i hope to pass on, is (and sorry if it sounds like sissy new age stuff) the spirit of the "True Warrior," who learns both the skills and the discipline to overcome his enemies, protect loved ones and innocents, and who is not afraid to put himself at risk in the defense of others. Not to be boastful or intimidating, because he has the confidence that he can outsmart, outmaneuver, and overpower his enemies, and not depend on bluster or machismo. He has a sense of honor, of duty, of responsibility, of courtesy.

I think if there's "brainwashing" to be done, it should be towards THAT end.

Kim
March 19, 2012, 10:49 PM
This was pushed big time in the 1990's. It was the heath model and guns as a disease. Lot of liberal money from Tides Foundation and others was spent on this propaganda ploy. The NEJM got all hot and heavy about it and the APA (pediatic) groups are all still enthralled with the concept. Some Judges still talk about this theory in their rulings. It was and is all BS. Holder is an ideologue of the worst sort.

Steel Horse Rider
March 19, 2012, 10:52 PM
I guess we should have a safe and unarmed citizenry so we can have "safe" crimes like the one committed in France today. As horrific as the gun crimes committed in the heavily regulated socialist countries are they should illustrate to everyone that banning and regulating firearms still does not stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes....

Shear_stress
March 19, 2012, 10:59 PM
I guess we should have a safe and unarmed citizenry so we can have "safe" crimes like the one committed in France today. As horrific as the gun crimes committed in the heavily regulated socialist countries are they should illustrate to everyone that banning and regulating firearms still does not stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes....

You're absolutely right in principal. I'm not sure if you're saying handguns (the gun used was a .45) are banned in France, or just more regulated because handguns and even scary "military style" semi-auto rifles (or whatever we're calling them now) are perfectly legal there. It's definitely true that greater regulations still didn't stop their use in the commission of those terrible shootings, though.

Goosey
March 19, 2012, 11:37 PM
Sadly, established gun culture seems to hold that unless someone's pants aren't at a certain height or unless they vote non-"democrap" or non-"libtard" they don't get to play. But that's an entirely different fish of kettle.

I find this quite true on gun forums that are *cough* not as strictly moderated as this one.

I don't see how Holder or anyone else could change public opinion on guns, though. Young people's minds won't be changed by cheesy advertisements...

I don't think Holder is concerned about responsible gun owners rights,but I don't think he's overly concerned with responsible gun owners carrying guns, either.

I think he is concerned with young hoodlums and criminals carrying them and he wants to create a public attitude and put more restrictive laws in place... which then affects us, but "too bad, so sad".

Black Duck Charlie
March 19, 2012, 11:41 PM
A better question: Is it ok to brainwash people into believing that "the other guy" is evil and/or mentally deficient just because "the other guy" does not agree with you? I speak of the use of the term "LIBTARD" here on this forum, in this thread.

Serenity
March 20, 2012, 02:25 AM
Well I can tell you one sure way to turn away potential pro-2nd amendment, LGS supporting, firearm advocating liberals; call them names and ridicule them. In spite of the fact that those few people who can call themselves gun-toting liberals are the BRIDGE between two cultures who ultimately want the same things; life, liberty and the pursuit of property. Only I guess I should grow a pair and use the terms "I" and "we".

As a gun owner who socializes with many non-gun owners who are not "anti's" per se, but rather apathetic or simply never introduced to firearms and therefore either fearful or prejudiced, I constantly promote the culture that I have recently been welcomed to. I tout the safety and generosity of my new friends and the fun and empowering qualities of shooting.

I am the person that you want to include, because I have the respect of many non-gun people in my community who will listen when I tell interesting tales of the gun range or enthuse about my guns. So don't call me names. :fire:

DFWB
March 20, 2012, 02:45 AM
"libtards"....? really? This is exactly what is wrong with this country. Just because someone has a different set of beliefs than you does not make them retarded, or stupid or any of the other insults that get thrown around when politics is the topic of discussion. I would be hard pressed to see why any reasonable, rational adult would have a conservative or liberal leaning on every single issue... The answers do not lie on any one side, particularly on the wings. The liberals have some things right, as do the conservatives, and yet other issues ought be decided somewhere in the middle.

Conservatives often blame the liberal media for this and that, and rightfully so, but ignore the fact that the conservative media practices the exact kinds of things of which they accuse the liberals.

The only cure for this is to take what the media and special interest groups say, whether they be MSNBC, or Fox News for what it is, one side of the story, and use our god given brains to decide for ourselves the way we feel about each particular issue.

DFWB
March 20, 2012, 03:13 AM
I'm sorry for the off topic post, but sometimes people really bother me.

Now for a more on topic post: I think that "brainwashing" for or against anything is a terrible idea. It is much better to teach children as objectively as possible the pros and cons of what ever the topic is, whether it be guns, drugs, sex, etc... and let them decide for themselves.

mingansr
March 20, 2012, 06:26 AM
very interesting discussion.

i was just visiting xdtalk.com, and there was an interesting thread in 'xd talk chatter box' forum, titled "thinking about quitting the NRA".

well i read a few and agreed with a few, and gave my little rant. i get a little unnerved when the NRA seems to bash Obama. told a story at xd about my experience at a club where i was signing up to join NRA, because the club required it.

i respect and do my best to uphold not only the second but also the first amendment. all the xdtalkers and my fellow highroaders are a sage bunch. let's stop the labeling.

i don't know if it's kosher to refer to another forum, but i'm spending way to much time at both sites and gotta get some zzzz's. go on, check my post time.

peace to all, left and right. and the great middle

Fremmer
March 20, 2012, 10:31 AM
obama doesnt believe you have an individual right to keep and bear arms. obamas administration allowed thousands of guns to be transported to mexican drug cartels, and the obama wants a new gun ban to solve this problem. Anyone really surprised about that? And we have not heard a single call for holders resignation from liberals, even after a border patrol agent was shot to death with one of those guns, no surprise there.

Averageman
March 20, 2012, 10:52 AM
This guy is out of control.
I beleive he is using the "It has to be legal, because the President said it is, Defence" in Fast and Furious.
It is No wonder something on tape like this has popped up finally.
Now if there was someone willing to stand up and call the administration on all of this stuff and use Watergate as an example of the last President who tried that defence, maybe the average American would wake up to what a second term with these guys will look like.

Driftertank
March 20, 2012, 12:50 PM
I have to say, extremists on both ends really tick me off.

I carry a gun almost every day. I work for a living, and don't think being fat should qualify you for state aid/disability (i'm fat. It is my fault, i still work for a living). I think criminals should be PUNISHED, not given room, board, and free cable. Am i a republican?

I also support gay rights. Let 'em marry, and be as miserable as straight people, I say. I hate the rantings of the religious right saying the country's woes come from turning it's back on God. That may be, but most of the people ranting about it strike me as rich hypocrites. I've found that most muslims are peaceful, tolerant people. So am i a democrat?

I oppose war on principle, but I'll buy a beer for any man or woman who's been through it. I believe in respect and courtesy to all, but have no qualms about bringing violence to those who would victimise others.

So, i have no affiliation. I see valid points on both sides, and feel that calling names just hurts your side. Cheers.

Swing
March 20, 2012, 01:08 PM
They know they have the teachers in their pockets so it is no problem to 'brainwash' the kids in any subject.

Perhaps most, but there are very pro-gun teachers and administrators out there. Particularly in rural communities.

Pilot
March 20, 2012, 01:14 PM
Holder purposely makes no deliniation between illegal guns, and legal guns. That is really the issue, but instead he demonizes the "gun", an inanimate object so the constituency that he and Obama rely on can remain blameless.

Jim NE
March 20, 2012, 01:40 PM
Well, to be honest, Holder started out sounding like Bob Dole in the '96 campaign, who criticized Hollywood for promoting a cultural atmosphere of violence (among many other things). Only difference is Dole got crucified by Hollywood. Holder didn't.

Imagine that.

But then Holder got into the notion of creating, through media, an all omnipotent social atmosphere where opposing viewpoints "cower" (as he put it) like social outcasts. Apparently he thinks getting people to cower shouldn't be too difficult in a "nation of cowards."

You can talk around the issue, but when he says "young people", he obviously means inner city problem children (judging from the fresh prince, martin and jesse jackson references.) What that group of young people need are PARENTS, not positive TV images.

GambJoe
March 20, 2012, 07:09 PM
Part of what the guy is saying is right. Can we all agree that kids growing up in certain cultures in this country thinking drug sales and standing up for one's territory or honor with a gun is a prefered lifestyle? How do you get them into believing in books and passing grades? Brainwashing is bad choise of words. He also goes over the top when he lumps all guns and their uses into a negative catorgory - he's a politician.

PS: I do believe in the United State of America and compared to some liberal on gun ownership. Does that make me a liberal statist?

Fremmer
March 20, 2012, 07:37 PM
No, none of what he says is right, because he doesn't believe that any of those kids should ever be allowed to possess guns, ever. Unless they grow up to be members of a mexican drug cartel, in which case old eric will gladly allow thousands of guns to be trucked right into mexico. Obama claims to have an open and transparent administration, but holder refuses to produce thousands of documents to congress. Why?

bushmaster1313
March 20, 2012, 09:27 PM
I watched up to the brainwash part because I could not take any more. But to be fair, it was pretty clear to me that he was talking about gang members and gang member wannabees.

mingansr
March 20, 2012, 10:55 PM
Kudos to you, Driftertank. a very nice assessment. i just love this forum (generally, all the forums here). i love my colleagues at xdtalk.com too. went there and learned much about my xd40, and some sage xdtalker suggested this forum to me.

spending way too much time on both. gotta get my Lee Loadmaster going, cuz i'm out of bullets, and i can shoot all day, every day at my local gun club if i could afford to. only 12 Fiocchi 165 gr JHP for my PD weapon. sheesh!

Black Duck Charlie
March 20, 2012, 11:48 PM
Someone said that OBAMA allowed guns to be shipped to Mexican drug cartels... Well, that "Fast and Furious" thing was started while BUSH was President. Interesting how it's all OBAMA'S fault, though.........

The point, people, is that Holder is a politician -- and politicians ALWAYS do and say what they think will get them the most votes. Period. Now please leave your anti-"other guy" POLITICAL bias at the proverbial door.

awgrizzly
March 21, 2012, 02:15 AM
The plan to track guns smuggled to Mexican gangs started during Bush, but the idea of purposely make gun dealers break the law and send illegal guns into Mexico allegedly to track them (Fast and Furious) was the work of Holder's people. And when it plays out it'll probably be proved that it was intended to be used to leverage more gun control legislation.

There is no excuse to defame gun owners. Those who misuse guns and those who use guns to commit crimes are no different than those who drive cars recklessly or use them to commit crime. There are criminal laws now that punish illegal acts and civil laws that mitigate reckless behavior. It does not matter if these laws are violated with the use of guns, cars, rocks, or bare hands, the law is broken. And you can't stop these criminal acts neither by law nor raping the Constitution. All society can do is punish people after the fact. Anything more is control, and it must necessarily be applied against law abiders.

Control is the means and the objective, and it will always be so as long as we have diabolically ambitious and greedy people who care nothing of our liberty.

awgrizzly
March 21, 2012, 02:31 AM
In answer to the OP's original question:

I remember after the Korean War any hint of brainwashing would be met with nearly universal anger (and I remember no one doing it). I also remember during the cold war any suggestion of socialism, and especially Marxism, would have and was met with nearly universal anger.

I'm quite surprised how it's now pretty much accepted that the progressives are socialists, even Marxists, and many still vote for them. But I never thought I'd see the day when a government official like Holder could appear on national TV advocating brainwashing our children without hoards of pitchfork wielding people chasing him down.

Times have changed and we are a different people. Shame on us.

Black Duck Charlie
March 21, 2012, 05:16 AM
It used to be ok to brainwash people into taking the Law into their own hands. It was back when lynch mobs were formed to hang whoever the mobs thought was guilty -- without benefit of any trial. Too often all the "guilty" had to do was have a differing opinion, look different, or come from the "wrong" place.

It is not so surprising to me that there are no "hoards of pitchfork wielding people" chasing this Holder fool today. I am not surprised because people in general are more willing to allow "Authority" more leeway because "Authority" supposedly knows what is best. We have been taught from the cradle that "Authority" is to always be listened to, that the Government "is never wrong", after all. I think you know the phrase: "My Country, Right or Wrong"; it was huge in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's.

Now that politicians are no longer able to cover up their "mistakes", y'all complain about how it's the other guy who is always at fault?

forestdavegump
March 21, 2012, 06:18 AM
Brain washing? Sheeple do what sheeple do no sense in fixing what can't be fixed?

I vote we quite with the name calling and "LIBTARD" thing. I learned what it means and if your liberal good for you to each their own. 1st amendment and all that. The T@RD part is wrong. We help people with disabilities (mental, learning and physical) learn to shoot and respect guns here. Can we stop the name calling this is the High Road?

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