caliber,bullets,SD & dangerousG...


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16n69
March 19, 2012, 06:50 PM
Ok...what is it about this that sparks such controversy & contrary views?
Secondly, I am not "obsessed with bears, terrified, or incompetent...I do not care how 'fast' you think you are with a mechanical action...I will be faster with an auto-loader under duress... not only placement matters, but tissue, skeletal & organ damage matters and you have few seconds for that, so yes, I'll take 3 well aimed shots with heavy-penetrating projectile to your one...).
Originally,(OP)... all I wanted was to be as sure as humanly possible that I had the most capable gun/caliber/projectile for the purpose, as unlikely as an encounter & Brown bear attack may be, I will be in high populated area...the neighbors there have had "encounters" with serious consequences and I take that seriously.

You do not go out as an officer, soldier, hunter into your field of combat where the predators (2 or 4 legged) roam unprepared or under-gunned!

So how is it...all you "bullet & ballistic" experts...that the .338 Win. Mag w/jacketed hunting rounds, are the #1 cartridge/rifle of AK. guides backing hunters...light bullets 200-250gr. (light by craigC standards???...no offense)
...some say nothing under 500gr. cast FN solid will stop the bear?

I am an old combat hand-gunner & occasional deer-elk hunter, what do I know about bears & defense of?
However...I need to review what I have learned from all you survivor-hunter-thousands-o-rounds a month shooters and bullet & ballistic gurus have taught me:
#1. Bear attacks=unlikely=paranoia (even in proved areas like Glacier MT. & surrounding area which rival or surpass AK., have family there, I know)

#2. SG w/slugs even modern hi-tech hardened Brenneke BM…are inadequate:Fact;"the diameter of a Brennele* 12 ga slug is .73 inches,*much larger then most every rifle or pistol bullet.*The Frontal area of all Brenneke USA slugs*immediately on impact open to .80 caliber and maintain*their original shape and*most all of its weight throughout the wound channel.* The high momentum factor allows*penetration of both hard and soft barriers, while maintaining a*higher average terminal velocity. This, along with its massive frontal area means more tissue damage, hemorrhage and trauma, it will stop an animal immediately."

#3. Only guns & cartridges that "look like" guns used in Big Game Hunting & the Big "5", along with "cowboy" rifles used to win the West & kill the Buffalo, is sufficient for Grizzly defense.

#4. The real best defense against a Grizzly sow protecting to-the-death, her cubs... or a p.o.'d boar determined to tear you limb form limb, is spraying them with pepper, no need for violence…lol

#5. The 1st, and any other shot you most likely won't get... better be CNS or break shoulders & hips or your dead.

#6. In most attacks…the bear is "on you" within 3 seconds or less…so you won't even get one shot off if you carry "sanely", "cruiser ready".

I am just a guy who wants to be well prepared…even for the "unlikely".
I am not now, nor after hundreds of rounds with the gun I choose, lacking confidence in my shooting ability…but I still believe more well placed shots in the shortest time (Fact:attack is quick) with enough energy and biggest/heaviest deep penetrating projectile is better, than just one shot that even with the best marksmen may miss in this scenario.
Semi-auto's deliver this better than mechanical worked actions.

So if a .80 cal. Brenneke slug@ over 3,000ft.lbs.,...hardened slugs that cause massive tissue damage, are "iffy" and 45 cal. .458SOCOM 405gr. bullets are also…then why would a .338 be good "bear medicine" as the hunters & guides say, not just for "hunting", but defense?

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35 Whelen
March 19, 2012, 07:43 PM
Did you e-mail the bear guide? Tell you what, he's a regular over on the 24 Hour Campfire (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary) forums. His handle is 458Win. Ask him and let us know what he says. Matter of fact, I'll watch for your post over there.
By the way, last time I read one of his articles, he was carrying an aperture sighted bolt rifle for backup.

35W

P.S.- Please lose the bold text. Reading your posts is like watching a herd of zebras run laps around a soccer field.

Robert101
March 19, 2012, 07:51 PM
Holy crud Batman...... was that a question or a statement?

16n69
March 19, 2012, 08:23 PM
Both;)

16n69
March 19, 2012, 08:45 PM
Did you e-mail the bear guide? Tell you what, he's a regular over on the 24 Hour Campfire (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary) forums. His handle is 458Win. Ask him and let us know what he says. Matter of fact, I'll watch for your post over there.
By the way, last time I read one of his articles, he was carrying an aperture sighted bolt rifle for backup.

35W

P.S.- Please lose the bold text. Reading your posts is like watching a herd of zebras run laps around a soccer field.
I thought only CAPS were baddd forum manners?
Mod said to use other for emphasis, so I did???
Who is this .458 Win. ? Phil Shoemaker?
Someone on this forum said he runs a kinda dude ranch for AK wannabe hunters and is just a writer?

LoonWulf
March 19, 2012, 08:50 PM
Ive read your other post, and I would also be interested in what your reply is from Mr. Shoemaker. I live in hawaii so this discussion dosnt pertain to me, but I do find the information interesting.
As for why this causes such controversy, well we all have your opinions, knowledge base, and prejudices. I would suggest you take the basic suggestions and information to heart.

Out of curiosity, what is your firearms background? Im actually interested not trying to be a jerk (and if i missed it in one of your other threads I apologize).

jon86
March 19, 2012, 09:06 PM
16n69, what would you like to know?

16n69
March 19, 2012, 09:30 PM
Ive read your other post, and I would also be interested in what your reply is from Mr. Shoemaker. I live in hawaii so this discussion dosnt pertain to me, but I do find the information interesting.
As for why this causes such controversy, well we all have your opinions, knowledge base, and prejudices. I would suggest you take the basic suggestions and information to heart.

Out of curiosity, what is your firearms background? Im actually interested not trying to be a jerk (and if i missed it in one of your other threads I apologize).
Handguns, primarily Colt 1911 .45's.

16n69
March 19, 2012, 09:38 PM
16n69, what would you like to know?
The .338 Win. Mag. is often cited as the most common BUG carried by guides...
given it's SD (sectional density seemingly to be the "holy grail" determining stopping DG/Bears...?)
...then given the ballistics of .458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt., & Brenneke BM slugs, seems like they all would get the job done and it is up to the shooter and the "one shot" you may get when charged...but regardless of gun/projectile you have less than a 50-50 chance for survival,much less...would that about sum it up?
That is what I got out of 3 threads on this forum!

jon86
March 19, 2012, 09:44 PM
I've never shot a grizzly. I probably never will.
But from what I've read, you summed it up. Any of the four calibers you mentioned will probably work, provided the shooter does his part.

35 Whelen
March 19, 2012, 10:08 PM
I thought only CAPS were baddd forum manners?
Mod said to use other for emphasis, so I did???
Who is this .458 Win. ? Phil Shoemaker?
Someone on this forum said he runs a kinda dude ranch for AK wannabe hunters and is just a writer?

The Mod said to use italics for emphasis.

Phil Shoemaker is an Alaskan bear guide, he does NOT run a dude ranch. Again, here's his website: Grizzly Skins of Alaska (http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/)

458Win is his handle over on the 24 Hour Campfire (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php) forum.

Whoever told you he runs a Dude Ranch for AK wannab'es is very uninformed. Click the link and check out his website.

35W

jmr40
March 19, 2012, 11:58 PM
I've done a few tests on speed and accuracy:

Firing 3 shots as fast as possible, without aiming at a target resulted in the following times from fastest to slowest.

Semi auto .5 seconds
870 pump w slugs .7 seconds
44 mag lever 1.39 seconds
30-30 lever 1.41 seconds
45-70 lever 1.78 seconds
M-70 bolt rifle 30-06 1.88 seconds

The 2nd round required me to hit a 9" pie plate at 50 yards with 3 shots as fast as possible.

Semi auto-- 2.68 seconds
870 -- 2.98 seconds, but I failed to hit with all 3 shots
44 mag-- 3.88 seconds, failed to hit all 3 times
30-30-- 3.97 seconds, failed to hit all 3 shots
30-06 --4.08 seconds, 3 hits, 2" group
45-70--4.17,seconds, failed to make 3 hits

There have been several gunwriters who have conducted comprehensive testing as well as the Alaska Game and fish dept on the effectiveness of various cartridges as well as bullets with suprising results.

The best perfomers started with the 375 H&H magnum and larger magnum chamberings. They gave the best results with lots of penetration and expansion.

The surprising part was that 30-06 or any of the 300 magnums when loaded with 200-220 gr Nosler partitions were the 2nd best performers. Outclassing the 338 magnum, 35 Whelen and even hot loaded 45-70 rounds. The larger calibers delivered more energy, but their larger diameters limited penetration, which is the key.

12 guage slugs were poor performers with very little penetration.

The semi's are faster, but because of the harsh conditions they are used in I simply don't trust their reliability, same for the lever actions. I'd personally prefer the rugged simplicity of a heavy loaded bolt action in 30-06. But the speed of a pump chambered in 30-06 might well be a better choice. I simply don't have much experience with a pump and trust the bolt gun more. I know that the Alaska DNR recommends a 375 mag as a first choice and has no problem recommending a properly loaded 30-06 as a strong 2nd choice since recoil is much less and many can shoot the 30-06 much better.

Robert
March 20, 2012, 06:01 AM
Outclassing the 338 magnum, 35 Whelen and even hot loaded 45-70 rounds. The larger calibers delivered more energy, but their larger diameters limited penetration, which is the key.

Interesting. Do you know if they were using hard cast lead or jacketed HP or SP bullets for the 45-70 test?

SimplyChad
March 20, 2012, 06:43 AM
If a hard cast 45-70 hot loaded didnt penetrate adequately enough I dont want to know what would and how heavy the rifle would have to be to use it.

wombat13
March 20, 2012, 10:57 AM
The 2nd round required me to hit a 9" pie plate at 50 yards with 3 shots as fast as possible.

Semi auto-- 2.68 seconds
870 -- 2.98 seconds, but I failed to hit with all 3 shots
44 mag-- 3.88 seconds, failed to hit all 3 times
30-30-- 3.97 seconds, failed to hit all 3 shots
30-06 --4.08 seconds, 3 hits, 2" group
45-70--4.17,seconds, failed to make 3 hits

There have been several gunwriters who have conducted comprehensive testing as well as the Alaska Game and fish dept on the effectiveness of various cartridges as well as bullets with suprising results.

The best perfomers started with the 375 H&H magnum and larger magnum chamberings. They gave the best results with lots of penetration and expansion.


This got me thinking about a BAR rechambered for .375 Taylor (wildcat based on the .338WM case). BARs are available in .338WM and the .375 Taylor has ballistics similar to the .375H&H.

The key question is whether the BAR could handle the beating.

16n69
March 20, 2012, 11:32 AM
This got me thinking about a BAR rechambered for .375 Taylor (wildcat based on the .338WM case). BARs are available in .338WM and the .375 Taylor has ballistics similar to the .375H&H.

The key question is whether the BAR could handle the beating.
Can you buy .375 Taylor commercially...or is it hand-load only?

Loosedhorse
March 20, 2012, 11:38 AM
I do not care how 'fast' you think you are with a mechanical action...I will be faster with an auto-loader under duressWell, it's the first shot that matters, IMHO. Why exactly are you going to be faster with that first shot using an autoloader? However, if you really want an auto, there's no conflict with the .338 choice: get a BAR or Benelli R1; or maybe an AR in .338 Fed?SG w/slugs even modern hi-tech hardened Brenneke BM…are inadequateAre you sure "they say" slugs are "inadequate?" I think they may not be ideal. But one of our more experienced posters on this subject likes slugs because they go to point of aim every time for him--and that counts for a lot.Only guns & cartridges that "look like" guns used in Big Game HuntingAre you acquainted with why Big Game Hunting rifles look the way they do? Probably, but to review--

Extreme environments (dust, rain and heat in Africa; cold, ice, mud and rain in grizzly country) are not the ideal environments for semi-autos. Murphy's Law and all that. PHs in Africa do not, I believe, use the guns they use because they "look the part", but because they work every time, and have for decades. Maybe that experience means something.spraying them with pepperAbsolutely a great idea, but not a sure thing, so I'd want a firearm as back-up. Brings up the problem of which do you reach for? :uhoh:The 1st, and any other shot you most likely won't get... better be CNSThe only reliable bear stopper is a CNS hit. If that's what it is--should we say something else?In most attacks…the bear is "on you" within 3 seconds or lessBears are quick. If you see one at distance, you'll try to avoid it; if it sees, hears, or smells you, it will (in most circumstances) avoid you and/or announce itself, so you can avoid it.

Given that, why is it hard to believe that a bear attack will most likely occur close-in with little warning time? Again, if that's true, should we say something else?why would a .338 be good "bear medicine"Well, if a guide has decades of experience (and confidence) in that rifle, and can hit with it, it is good bear medicine. I might (myself) prefer a larger rifle caliber (as long as I shoot it well), but heck: I'll figure that the guide has some idea of what works for him.sectional density seemingly to be the "holy grail" determining stopping DG/BearsI think placement first. Then SD combined with adequate muzzle velocity.regardless of gun/projectile you have less than a 50-50 chance for survival,much less...Hmmm.same for the lever actionsI've found lever-actions to be extremely reliable in harsh conditions. YMMV.

----

My own thoughts: The rule for SD guns is carry the most power gun that you can shoot well. I don't think that changes for defense against dangerous animals.

If you can shoot the .458 Lott well, fine, use that. Some will consider it overkill, but (as someone said) overkill is under-rated :D. And if you use something like a Barnes TSX, then all that extra energy will add a little extra thump compared to a solid, non-expanding bullet--and that might help to "discourage" the bear if you miss the CNS.

I don't think there's a lot of info on whether deeply penetrating, expanding bullets or the even more deeply penetrating solids would work best against a charging bear. Of course, with a CNS hit it won't matter. In Africa, many folks think that expanding bullets are better for stopping charges of thin-skinned animals, like lion.

Well. That "most powerful you can shoot well" gun will vary from person to person. I think carrying less that your most powerful, well shot gun is playing the "how little can I get away with against a bear" game; and that game actually makes sense to a point. If you're fishing, do you keep a revolver in a chest holster, or a shotgun on your back (or on shore)?

And, if I'm working with a guide who's killed scores of bear with his measley .338--I'm going to tell him it's a poor choice? :D

wombat13
March 20, 2012, 01:01 PM
Can you buy .375 Taylor commercially...or is it hand-load only?
It is a wildcat. Handload only as far as I know. I posted a question about this conversion on the Rifle board this morning and a poster suggested converting the BAR to .375 Ruger. That has a bit more wallop than the .375 H&H and commercial ammo is available.

16n69
March 20, 2012, 04:07 PM
Well, it's the first shot that matters, IMHO. Why exactly are you going to be faster with that first shot using an autoloader? However, if you really want an auto, there's no conflict with the .338 choice: get a BAR or Benelli R1; or maybe an AR in .338 Fed?Are you sure "they say" slugs are "inadequate?" I think they may not be ideal. But one of our more experienced posters on this subject likes slugs because they go to point of aim every time for him--and that counts for a lot.Are you acquainted with why Big Game Hunting rifles look the way they do? Probably, but to review--

Extreme environments (dust, rain and heat in Africa; cold, ice, mud and rain in grizzly country) are not the ideal environments for semi-autos. Murphy's Law and all that. PHs in Africa do not, I believe, use the guns they use because they "look the part", but because they work every time, and have for decades. Maybe that experience means something.Absolutely a great idea, but not a sure thing, so I'd want a firearm as back-up. Brings up the problem of which do you reach for? :uhoh:The only reliable bear stopper is a CNS hit. If that's what it is--should we say something else?Bears are quick. If you see one at distance, you'll try to avoid it; if it sees, hears, or smells you, it will (in most circumstances) avoid you and/or announce itself, so you can avoid it.

Given that, why is it hard to believe that a bear attack will most likely occur close-in with little warning time? Again, if that's true, should we say something else?Well, if a guide has decades of experience (and confidence) in that rifle, and can hit with it, it is good bear medicine. I might (myself) prefer a larger rifle caliber (as long as I shoot it well), but heck: I'll figure that the guide has some idea of what works for him.I think placement first. Then SD combined with adequate muzzle velocity.Hmmm.I've found lever-actions to be extremely reliable in harsh conditions. YMMV.

----

My own thoughts: The rule for SD guns is carry the most power gun that you can shoot well. I don't think that changes for defense against dangerous animals.

If you can shoot the .458 Lott well, fine, use that. Some will consider it overkill, but (as someone said) overkill is under-rated :D. And if you use something like a Barnes TSX, then all that extra energy will add a little extra thump compared to a solid, non-expanding bullet--and that might help to "discourage" the bear if you miss the CNS.

I don't think there's a lot of info on whether deeply penetrating, expanding bullets or the even more deeply penetrating solids would work best against a charging bear. Of course, with a CNS hit it won't matter. In Africa, many folks think that expanding bullets are better for stopping charges of thin-skinned animals, like lion.

Well. That "most powerful you can shoot well" gun will vary from person to person. I think carrying less that your most powerful, well shot gun is playing the "how little can I get away with against a bear" game; and that game actually makes sense to a point. If you're fishing, do you keep a revolver in a chest holster, or a shotgun on your back (or on shore)?

And, if I'm working with a guide who's killed scores of bear with his measley .338--I'm going to tell him it's a poor choice? :D
You are taking my words out of context:"The only reliable bear stopper is a CNS hit. If that's what it is--should we say something else?
Quote:
In most attacks…the bear is "on you" within 3 seconds or less
Bears are quick. If you see one at distance, you'll try to avoid it; if it sees, hears, or smells you, it will (in most circumstances) avoid you and/or announce itself, so you can avoid it.

Given that, why is it hard to believe that a bear attack will most likely occur close-in with little warning time? Again, if that's true, should we say something else?
Quote:
I was not doubting that fact...just stating that fact and for that very reason...then I thought with so little time to react & follow-up, the fastest action would be best(semi-auto)

why would a .338 be good "bear medicine"
Well, if a guide has decades of experience (and confidence) in that rifle, and can hit with it, it is good bear medicine. I might (myself) prefer a larger rifle caliber (as long as I shoot it well), but heck: I'll figure that the guide has some idea of what works for him.
I believe it is good...just asking if the width & weight of a .338 is OK, than why would not a Brenneke @ .80 Cal. and like a hard cast or a .458 socom @ 405gr. or heavier be good?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 20, 2012, 06:28 PM
OK first off, who was telling you that the most common rifle used by guides for bear defense was a .338? Because whoever told you that is stone cold wrong. It may be one of the most common rifles for hunting but it is by NO means the most common for defense. I've hunted and fished all over the great northern state of Alaska with many guides and and friends up there for over 30 years. THE absolute MOST common bear defense weapon carried up there is a 12 gauge pump loaded up with slugs.

And no a semi auto action up there is NOT a good idea at all. Simply for reliability reasons. I personally would not be willing to bet my life on one.

And you are WAY to worried about speed and followup shots. I've seen a couple of your other posts and have noted that you have already been told 15 times or more that 99.9% of bear attacks are SURPRISE encounters. Both of mine were. One was a sow with cubs and the other was a pretty damn big boar that didn't like me being at his favorite fishing hole. He bluffed a couple of times then came a truckin! Usually, if they bluff and you keep your eyes down and back away, they will let you alone. This one was NOT your usual boar. Only with the boar did I have time for a follow up shot. The sow was dead at my feet (literally) before the recoil came back down. You need to worry about that FIRST shot under duress. Just imagine trying to draw and aim well while peeing and crapping your pants at the same time while 1000 pounds of pissed off fur and teeth are coming to educate you.

A 12gauge slug (Bren) gives you a slight advantage because of it's initial size. That HUGE impact can help in making up for the good possibility of being slightly off the mark.

Loosedhorse
March 20, 2012, 07:10 PM
You are taking my words out of contextI had no intention of so doing. The context that I found them in was, perhaps, somewhat unclear.I thought with so little time to react & follow-up, the fastest action would be best(semi-auto)Depending on mode of carry and how surprised you are, I might think a pistol gives you the fastest first shot and very quick follow-up shots. Again, I think a SA and BA rifle give you an equally fast first shot. When I practice a big gun, my bolt is already closed by the time my sights are back on target--so I'm not sure I'd get any faster follow-on shots from a SA. (IMHO, I'd have to step down significantly in caliber to avoid the the need for recovering from recoil.)why would not a Brenneke @ .80 Cal. and like a hard cast or a .458 socom @ 405gr. or heavier be good? Not sure. But it might be that guides do a lot of types of hunting, and the .338 serves in many roles that the shotgun slug could not. So they've decide to carry one rifle, and get really good with it.

It's unclear to me (see context, above) if you are asking why guides "prefer" .338s for grizzlies (do they?), or why "everyone" says shotgun slugs won't work (I don't think "everyone" says that). As to .458 SOCOM, I suspect there's just very little experience with that round on grizz (but I could be wrong). And again, maybe there are just general concerns about the stamina of a semi-auto platform in or near the Artic Circle.

Flintknapper
March 20, 2012, 07:13 PM
why would a .338 be good "bear medicine"
Well, if a guide has decades of experience (and confidence) in that rifle, and can hit with it, it is good bear medicine. I might (myself) prefer a larger rifle caliber (as long as I shoot it well), but heck: I'll figure that the guide has some idea of what works for him.
I believe it is good...just asking if the width & weight of a .338 is OK, than why would not a Brenneke @ .80 Cal. and like a hard cast or a .458 socom @ 405gr. or heavier be good?


The .338 Win Mag would be excellent, it is a proven cartridge on Big Bear. Is it the “ultimate bear stopper”….no, but if I remember correctly…you are trying to narrow it down to one (of three) cartridges you now own (or will soon purchase), so those venturing beyond that are wasting your time.

Those who characterize 300 gr and 405 gr. bullets as “light” or “varmint bullets” (for use on Bear) clearly have nothing to offer here.

If you feel more comfortable using an autoloader…then please do so. Just make SURE it runs 100% and will do so under the conditions you will be in. You will also want to consider how you might carry it and how well you can actually wield it (get it into action).

An honest to goodness bear attack (not a bluff) is most likely to happen at a distance well under 50 yds. (probably 30 yds or less). It will be quick….so unless you already have your weapon out and at the ready…chances are nill you’ll will get off more than two shots.

With that in mind….shot placement is especially critical. Ideally, a CNS shot (with a cartridge of sufficient energy) is desired. You next best shot would be something that “breaks down” the bear (read shoulder, pelvis, spine aft of the shoulders) in order to render the bear LESS mobile.

Your goal isn’t to kill the bear (necessarily)…but to stop the bear…. whether physically or by persuading it to break off its attack. Either way….it needs to be done quickly.

You gain nothing if the bear expires 30 minutes after tearing you into small, unrecognizable pieces. A “mutual” kill is not what you are after.

To that end….a bullet of sufficient weight that penetrates adequately (and preferably expands), is what should be used. Some folks dwell on penetration only, dismissing the importance of imparting shock (as much as possible) to the animal.

That’s why the .338 Win Mag and .375 H&H do so well. No one is shooting “solids” out of them (for bear).

Any of the cartridges you are considering (the slug, 45/70…or the SOCOM) can get the job done IF you can get good bullet placement. IF not…..then a lot depends on how dedicated the bear is at attacking you.

The suggestion for carrying a good canister of bear spray was not a bad one…actually.

charlie echo
March 20, 2012, 07:28 PM
I've been thinking about a 16" barrel 458 WM bolt action carbine, because

1. it'll be fun to shoot
2. will save $ on reloading
3. will hunt or stop any living being with an accurate shot or two with 500 grain solids.

Since I have a 308, a 458 can be the all around back up or dangerous game gun.

I'll want peep sights

Art Eatman
March 20, 2012, 09:32 PM
I watched H&H "double-tap" in IPSC style of speed with his .470 Rigby double. About a two- or three-inch spread at twenty yards. Probably plenty good, given the pictures he's sometimes posted here with big, mean, nasty, evil critters of the one ton and up variety.

Ruggedness and reliability counts for something, I reckon, along with getting that first shot in where it does the most good. But I imagine that everybody has their own ideas about R&R.

Flintknapper
March 20, 2012, 09:43 PM
You could just a take another person along and a .22 pistol.

If a bear attacks, just "knee cap" the other person with the .22 and run for all you're worth.

If the bear stops on the person you left behind, you're home free...if not then you can always turn the .22 on yourself. ;)

Just another angle. :D

Loosedhorse
March 21, 2012, 12:40 AM
No one is shooting “solids” out of them (for bear).I believe you. Why aren't they?

Is it just a preference larger diameter of an expanded bullet, or is your belief that the "shock" of the bullet upsetting does something pretty much a universal one? Simple experience that expanding bullets "do just fine" so why change; or experience that solids--.375 H&H solids, for example--don't stop bear well (that one I would doubt).

Are soft-points or HPs (that is, TSXs) generally used?

charlie echo
March 21, 2012, 12:51 AM
500 grain SPs ough work on bears, even through skulls or shoulder bones

16n69
March 21, 2012, 02:15 AM
You could just a take another person along and a .22 pistol.

If a bear attacks, just "knee cap" the other person with the .22 and run for all you're worth.

If the bear stops on the person you left behind, you're home free...if not then you can always turn the .22 on yourself. ;)

Just another angle. :D
hmmm, ah-ha moment...maybe I will start a guide service for Lawyers w/big guns and have them pay up front, slip a fresh salmon in their pack...and if the bear shows up put that .22 round in his knee (attorney, not the bear...).;)

16n69
March 21, 2012, 03:04 PM
I believe you. Why aren't they?

Is it just a preference larger diameter of an expanded bullet, or is your belief that the "shock" of the bullet upsetting does something pretty much a universal one? Simple experience that expanding bullets "do just fine" so why change; or experience that solids--.375 H&H solids, for example--don't stop bear well (that one I would doubt).

Are soft-points or HPs (that is, TSXs) generally used?
Not clear what you are trying to say here...sentences are fragmented and somewhat confusing grammar?
Want to know...sounds interesting, but???

Loosedhorse
March 22, 2012, 12:26 AM
You're right. Flintknapper said "No one is using..." and I responded "Why aren't they?" Yup, my "they" was unclear--I should have said, "Why is no one using..." I meant to ask, "Fine: what specifically does everyone use, and why?"

He mentioned the "importance of imparting shock", and I was curious if there's a general agreement that "shock" is important, that soilds don't impart it, or that a particular bullet-type imparts it best.

charlie echo
March 22, 2012, 12:43 AM
With a 458 WM or Lott, accuracy and penetration ought to be enough at close, near contact, range for stopping a charge. At hunting range, well under 75 yards, yeah, 500 grain A-frame softpoints ought to be fine.

My 44 RM side arm's 320 grain hardcast bullets, by Garrett Caryridges of AK, would not expand, by design. They also load 45-70 hardcast, but 458 Lott/WM might be just as effective, if not more.

Softpoints are for hunting meat
.458 Solids are for preventing the man from becoming meat.

Ideal is to have fewer, say two, rifles (308 & 458) and get to know them well

At .45 cal, 500 grain size, you can hope for shock while I bank on bone breaking penetration.

Loosedhorse
March 22, 2012, 03:10 PM
somewhat confusing grammar?Oh, wait, I get it now; post #30 amended.At .45 cal, 500 grain size, you can hope for shock while I bank on bone breaking penetration.Would you use an expanding bullet, to get both?

charlie echo
March 22, 2012, 04:38 PM
At around $4 per round ammo cost, either SP or FN...
I'd stock up based on price, actually.

This is not an Everyman's everyday treat:
something really special, the "king" of all handy bolt action effectiveness, nearly all within 75 yards, the real likely hunting distances of dangerous game.

I wonder how much handloading will reduce its costs?

For me, bolt actions are faster and more reliable for follow ups then lever actions, so no Marlin 45-70 Guide gun.

See
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Flintknapper
March 22, 2012, 11:59 PM
Loosedhorse wrote:

I thought it was very clear. Flintknapper says no one uses solids on bear;


Please quote me accurately….if you are going to do so. I did not say no one uses solids on bear, I said that in certain calibers (and listed those) “no one” (not literally of course, but only in rare instances) uses solids in the .338 Win Mag or .375 H&H. See below:

To that end….a bullet of sufficient weight that penetrates adequately (and preferably expands), is what should be used. Some folks dwell on penetration only, dismissing the importance of imparting shock (as much as possible) to the animal.

That’s why the .338 Win Mag and .375 H&H do so well. No one is shooting “solids” out of them (for bear).

I said fine: what specifically does everyone use, and why?

In nearly all cases…heavy for caliber, controlled expansion bullets (if from rifles). Shotgun users will most often be found packing slugs of various types.

Hand gunners….(the smart ones) will use heavy for caliber, heavily constructed jacketed bullets, hard cast lead or some of the recently available monolithic bullets. The better hard cast leads bullets can basically be thought of as a “solid” (at least in terms of performance/design).


He mentioned the "importance of imparting shock", and I was curious if there's a general agreement that "shock" is important.

Whether for general hunting or for stopping, imparting as much shock as possible… is never a bad thing, though it is not something to be relied upon by itself. But, neither is penetration. With respect to both… an “adequate” amount will be required to achieve the task at hand.

If we dwell solely on imparting energy without regard to penetration then failure to stop a bear is a virtual certainty. If we consider (arbitrarily) the figure of 1,500 ft. lbs. of energy to be the practical minimum…then we can compare several cartridges to illustrate a point.

Certain loads for a .44 Magnum shooting a 275 grain bullet….will churn up about 1500 ft. lbs. of energy (at the muzzle).

Similarly, certain loads for the venerable 45/70 (405 gr. FP) generate 1500 ft. lbs. of energy (at the muzzle).

And lastly, certain loads for a .22-250 (at well over 3000 fps) also make the target figure of 1500 ft. lbs. energy (at the muzzle).

Extreme example # 1 :rolleyes:

IF a poorly chosen bullet (read fragmenting varmint bullet) were used in the .22-250…I wouldn’t expect it to get much past the wet hair of a big Coastal Brownie.

At best…very shallow penetration would be the result. Although…I could rightfully state the bullet imparted ALL the energy available, lacking adequate penetration….I did nothing more than prove to the bear… I am harmless (even if loud).


Extreme example # 2 :rolleyes:

If penetration ONLY were needed (and was always better)….then we might as well dispense with bullets altogether and use flechettes. A hardened steel projectile with a needle like point is certain to travel the length of a bear, but what damage would be done (sans a CNS hit)?

Without sufficient frontal area or velocity (both components for energy transfer) a deeply penetrating projectile can only cause mechanical damage…subject to the elastic limits of the bone or tissue it passes through.

The smaller the frontal area or the less the velocity, the MORE you have an ice pick effect (not good for keeping bears off of you).

O.K. let’s get back to reality. The point is, don’t get hung up on any one term (Shock, Kinetic Energy, Penetration, Sectional Density). By themselves…they don’t mean much.





that solids don't impart it

Of course.. “solids” impart some amount of energy, ANYTHING with mass traveling at speed (you pick the speed) has energy. That is a fact too plain to require argument…and I certainly made no claim that solids do not, those are your words.


or that a particular bullet-type imparts it best.

Well….each person will need to decide what constitutes “best”, but in terms of rapid energy transfer (all things being equal), a bullet with a larger frontal area will outperform one of lesser diameter (same weight, same construction, same impact velocity).

The larger the frontal area…the larger the diameter of the Permanent Wound Channel (all things being equal).

The larger the frontal area…the larger the diameter of the Temporary Wound Cavity (all things being equal and assuming there was enough velocity to create it in the first place).

So for these reasons alone…an expanding bullet (suitable for the purpose) can be an advantage. The vast majority of hunters and bullet manufacturers recognize this and make/choose their ammo accordingly.

If you have to use a “solid” on North American game (even thin skinned dangerous game like Brown Bear) then you are not using a proper expanding bullet in one or more areas:

Bullet weight, Bullet construction, Impact Velocity.

The only animal indigenous to North America… that could be considered thick skinned would be the American Bison. Skin thickness aside…..

Even though large animals such as Brown/Grizzly bear, Elk, Moose, Musk Ox and Bison have large muscle groups and significant skeletal features….there are premium expanding bullets available today to handle each.

So why do some folks turn to non-expanding bullets.

Any number of reasons (some more valid than others) with respect to North American Game.

1. A good/premium expanding bullet is not available to them.

2. A hard cast bullet (traditional for certain firearms) is desired. Hard cast (of proper brinell rating) is essentially a non-expanding bullet.

3. A hard cast bullet is cheaper than many premium expanding bullets.

4. A non-expanding bullet by virtue of its greater penetrating potential allows the shooter to press into service an otherwise marginal cartridge for the need. I.E. certain pistol cartridges will fall into this category, some rifle cartridges as well. It doesn’t mean a “solid/non-expanding” bullet is better…just that it allows more versatility or utility from the same firearm.

5. Depending upon shape (ogive), non-expanding bullets tend to maintain a straighter track through muscle and bone. How much is hard to say…but that is the consensus.

6. IF the need exists to shoot from the rear of an animal….forward, instead of the other way around, this is where a non-expanding bullet shines.


Hopefully, this can remain a civil exchange of ideas, but if not... I have my flame suit on. ;)

Loosedhorse
March 23, 2012, 12:38 AM
Please quote me accurately….if you are going to do so. I did not say no one uses solids on bear, I said that in certain calibers (and listed those) “no one” (not literally of course, but only in rare instances) uses solids in the .338 Win Mag or .375 H&H.What a huff over nothing.

Yes, I understood, EVERYONE understood you said .338 and .375. I got a complaint about my grammar so I shortened. Sorry that you felt slighted. Perhaps if you look back to my ungrammaticalI believe you. Why aren't they? You'll realize that I was asking for info, for opinion--not trying to knock that enormous chip off your shoulder.Hopefully, this can remain a civil exchange of ideas.Because you've done so much to promote civility, by reading slights and bad intent into my questions? Even using a version of a post that I had changed 9 hours previously, rather than the post as I amended it.

Tell ya what. Keep your answers. I don't need 'em. I have no desire to wade through muck for simple conversation.

Flintknapper
March 23, 2012, 01:21 AM
^^^^^^^^^^


Hopefully, this can remain a civil exchange of ideas,



Pffffffft....I guess not. :eek:

knock that enormous chip off your shoulder.

Hmmmmm.....a little projection maybe?

If you have comments or thoughts about the subject matter here, I am happy to hear them.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 23, 2012, 05:42 AM
You boys take it down a notch or Art is going to take you both to the wood shed and spank your bottoms!!

Loosedhorse
March 23, 2012, 09:08 AM
If you have comments or thoughts about the subject matter here, I am happy to hear them. Uh-huh. This coming from a guy who, instead of commenting on the matter at hand, commented on a previous version of my post, because the version that was actually up--and had been for almost 9 hours--clearly showed his slap at me was nonsense; and I now believe, given your latest jab, that was done on purpose.

How does the version current when you made your comment...You're right. Flintknapper said "No one is using..." and I responded "Why aren't they?" Yup, my "they" was unclear--I should have said, "Why is no one using..." I meant to ask, "Fine: what specifically does everyone use, and why?"...in any way suggest you needed to "remind" me--in red letters yet--of what caliber you were speaking about? Like I said, it took work on your part to misinterpret that, including digging up an hours-old version of my post. And it wasn't honest work.Hopefully, this can remain a civil exchange of ideas
Pffffffft....I guess not.Your "offer" of civility was dishonest. Just like someone landing a sucker punch, and then saying, "Hey, I sure hope you don't turn this into a fight."

The fact that you won't admit that, confirms it was no mistake; it was dishonesty.

Flintknapper
March 23, 2012, 01:36 PM
L/H...if you will put the same time into responding to my post (and the subject matter) as you have making us aware that you are wearing your feelings out on your sleeve today, then perhaps we can contribute something worthwhile.

If you continue to be so easily wounded and only want to post about that, the result will be locked thread. I am somewhat surprised it is still open now.

Do you have questions, comments or information of your own to add...or not?

I have tried my best to make a start at answering the questions you put forth. Either participate, or don't...but please stop whining. Please.


Flint.

mbt2001
March 23, 2012, 01:53 PM
I have read this and the other bear threads in the OP's profile and am unclear on what "controversy" is being discussed.

I am reading the Fast and light versus slow and heavy...

Flintknapper
March 23, 2012, 02:08 PM
This thread (I believe) was spawned from another closed thread where the OP asked:


There are some guys trying to convince me that for large BEAR DEFENSE...
...EVEN BETTER than a quality semi-auto Benelli M4 H2O SG w/Brenneke slugs or a Marlin 1895SBL 45-70 would be a .458 SOCOM in the AR15/M4 platform...due to speed & weight of shot combined putting a lot of hi-sectional density lead on Mr. Brown real w/ real quick follow up.
That that round in that platform...can make bear burger out of Mr. Brown in the precious few seconds I may have in a charge...


So...this thread is not really about heavy/slow vs. light/fast...but more about the attributes of certain bullets types.

Loosedhorse
March 23, 2012, 02:20 PM
If you continue to be so easily woundedYup. Just about the stuff I'd expect from a guy who likes to sucker-punch. "Aw, come on, that didn't hurt--you're such a wimp."please stop whining. Please.Please stop lying. Please.

As I already said, I don't require your answers on the subject--thanks. To the extent that you stop talking about ME, I will stop responding to that subject.

mbt2001
March 23, 2012, 02:33 PM
Thanks...

The OP is almost incomprehensible in his questions and statements. At the end of the day, we are all betting our own @$$ on our decisions and if someone is willing to go to town with _______ caliber on ____ platform, shooting _____ bullets then what else needs to be said?

Flintknapper
March 23, 2012, 03:41 PM
^^^^^^^

Agreed....and succinctly put....Sir.

16n69
March 24, 2012, 12:46 AM
This thread (I believe) was spawned from another closed thread where the OP asked:




So...this thread is not really about heavy/slow vs. light/fast...but more about the attributes of certain bullets types.
You guys hijacked my OP...what are you squabbling about?

Loosedhorse
March 24, 2012, 10:22 AM
Nothing at the moment. I apologize for the diversion. If you'd like to lead us back to the topic...

Robert
March 24, 2012, 12:02 PM
You boys take it down a notch or Art is going to take you both to the wood shed and spank your bottoms!!

And if he don't I will. Cut it out now. Walk away or take it to PM.

Art Eatman
March 24, 2012, 12:17 PM
Going back over this thread: "Ok...what is it about this that sparks such controversy & contrary views?"

The simplest answer would be too much "I think" and not enough "In my experience".

But too much talking past one another and too much personal garbage. Enough.

16n69
March 24, 2012, 12:50 PM
Going back over this thread: "Ok...what is it about this that sparks such controversy & contrary views?"

The simplest answer would be too much "I think" and not enough "In my experience".

But too much talking past one another and too much personal garbage. Enough.
I agree with Art & Robert...I never intended my thread to become a "food fight"...and as the OP, I would like to re-direct and clarify my opening post;
These are the choices I will have to work with:(and then, I have 2 questions concerning them...) Just curious about a consensus?

MarlinSBL 45-70 w/Garretts 540gr. SuperHardCast gas-checked Hammerhead
Benelli M4 H2O w/Brenneke Black Magic Slug
Browning BAR .338 w/300gr. Woodleigh Weldcore JSP
Ar15/M4 .458 SOCOM w/405gr. CORBON Self-Defense JSP


1.Which Gun/Cal./cartridge-bullet would you want with you for defense(not hunting) against Grizzly & Coastal Brown Bear...and why?

2. Besides your "1st choice" to carry...if you had a partner with you what would be the second gun chosen for him/her to carry (in other words, your 1st & 2nd choice for you & them)?

Thanks everyone!

charlie echo
March 24, 2012, 01:21 PM
Marlin lever with Garrett 540s
for 1st and 2nd choices


FYI
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1011537/posts

Robert
March 24, 2012, 01:26 PM
Which one would I take? The one I can shoot the best and that I am the most accurate with. For me that would be my Marlin 1895G. I use hand loads that I am confident would be acceptable.

Honestly I think you are over thinking the subject. Take them all to the range, assuming you have them all, and see which one does what you want the best. And go with that. Practice, practice and practice some more. Simply owning a firearm does not make one proficient with it.

16n69
March 24, 2012, 02:25 PM
Which one would I take? The one I can shoot the best and that I am the most accurate with. For me that would be my Marlin 1895G. I use hand loads that I am confident would be acceptable.

Honestly I think you are over thinking the subject. Take them all to the range, assuming you have them all, and see which one does what you want the best. And go with that. Practice, practice and practice some more. Simply owning a firearm does not make one proficient with it.
"Simply owning a firearm does not make one proficient with it."
that is a given...I can assure you I fully understand & practice that.
It is beyond that obvious "given"...that I was inquiring about, in case anyone owned & used these 4 guns that are new to me, for the intended purpose I stated.
That's all.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 24, 2012, 03:06 PM
16n69, given those choices, the lever action .45/70 would have to be my ONLY choice in those. You have been told but you cant seem to get it through your head that semi-auto's just don't have the total reliability that is needed up there. My own personal first choice in my .500 S&W loaded up with 500gr Interlock flatpoints. But I have been shown that most are not as adept with handguns as I and need the length of either a shotgun or short carbine at least for more accurate aiming under pressure. Hence why I would and do recommend a good PUMP action 12 gauge loaded up with some hard hitting, high meplat slugs.

Loosedhorse
March 24, 2012, 03:11 PM
Which Gun/Cal./cartridge-bullet would you want with you for defense(not hunting) against Grizzly & Coastal Brown Bear...and why?Agree: Marlin .45-70. Not sure I even need the 540s--500 or 430 probably fine.

2nd choice: another Marlin for my friend. Because I personally don't see an advantage of a semi-auto here. Also, I have lots of experience putting .45-70s downrange through a Marlin, and familiarity is a huge source of bias. However, I also have put a lot of slugs through a Benelli M1 and M2; I love them, but I'll still take the Marlin.

No: I have no experience hunting brown bear.

16n69
March 24, 2012, 10:09 PM
16n69, given those choices, the lever action .45/70 would have to be my ONLY choice in those. You have been told but you cant seem to get it through your head that semi-auto's just don't have the total reliability that is needed up there. My own personal first choice in my .500 S&W loaded up with 500gr Interlock flatpoints. But I have been shown that most are not as adept with handguns as I and need the length of either a shotgun or short carbine at least for more accurate aiming under pressure. Hence why I would and do recommend a good PUMP action 12 gauge loaded up with some hard hitting, high meplat slugs.
"You have been told but you cant seem to get it through your head that semi-auto's just don't have the total reliability that is needed up there."...
I do not think I care for your "tone"...?
"R U scolding me?
Do you KNOW who Phil Shoemaker is...think he may have forgotten more about guns & bears than you know?
He said that his 1st choice would be the Browning BAR in .338 WM , and 2nd choice the Marlin 1895SBL in .45-70. A "quality" semi-auto has proven to be as "reliable", if not more so than other actions and worthy to bet ones life on...just ask the Military and S.W.A.T. teams.

And a HG...so what if it is a .500 S&W...(I own one in 4")...a handgun vs. a SG or rifle is dismal defense...and you are worried about "semi-auto" rifle / SG "reliability"??? LoL!

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 24, 2012, 10:59 PM
Not only have I heard of Phil, I have HUNTED with Phil several times as well as had him drop camp me several times over the years. You only know reputation and what you have read. I sir have BEEN there, DONE that. Did you know that Phil has only ever dropped ONE Brown bear in defense? Do you know that he is on the Bear Spray poll? Did you also know that he carries a 12 gauge Mossburg 500 loaded with Bren Slugs as well as a Can of Bear Spray? What is said on web pages and what he actually DOES is sometimes 2 completely different things. As I said earlier, for HUNTING, a semi would be an acceptable platform in most cases because if it fails, your life wouldn't be in danger. And dude, Just what in the hell does S.W.A.T. have to do in Alaska defense of Brown Bears? You seriously need to come to grips with reality. As far as Military, have a look at what they use in extreme cold conditions as well as extreme wet. It aint semi. The awful conditions in Alaska are very detrimental to semi auto actions.

I have had to defend my life against 2 Brown Bears. Both with a .44mag super redhawk. But I also put thousands of rounds downrange yearly and am highly trained to fire under extreme pressure. Most are not which is why I don't recommend hand guns for Bear defense. If it is a true DEFENSE against a Brown Bear, then you are going to be firing at less than 30 yards at a target that is the size of a tennis ball bouncing up and down and coming at you at around 30 to 35 mph. Now which in this case would you want, a large meplat that will input extreme force and, because of that near triple the frontal size, help if you miss the mark by a couple of inches or a rifle that you will HAVE to be dead on the money with.

Art Eatman
March 24, 2012, 11:30 PM
Somebody play Taps while I bury this poor old horse. :D

Flintknapper
March 25, 2012, 02:04 AM
45/70 lever action....hands down.

I would not use a bullet as heavy as a 500+ grain though.

Something in the 400-450 gr range is plenty.

Second choice (or for a partner) would be the same rifle (45/70).

Commonality of rifle platform and ammo...could be an advantage.

16n69
March 25, 2012, 12:49 PM
Not only have I heard of Phil, I have HUNTED with Phil several times as well as had him drop camp me several times over the years. You only know reputation and what you have read. I sir have BEEN there, DONE that. Did you know that Phil has only ever dropped ONE Brown bear in defense? Do you know that he is on the Bear Spray poll? Did you also know that he carries a 12 gauge Mossburg 500 loaded with Bren Slugs as well as a Can of Bear Spray? What is said on web pages and what he actually DOES is sometimes 2 completely different things. As I said earlier, for HUNTING, a semi would be an acceptable platform in most cases because if it fails, your life wouldn't be in danger. And dude, Just what in the hell does S.W.A.T. have to do in Alaska defense of Brown Bears? You seriously need to come to grips with reality. As far as Military, have a look at what they use in extreme cold conditions as well as extreme wet. It aint semi. The awful conditions in Alaska are very detrimental to semi auto actions.

I have had to defend my life against 2 Brown Bears. Both with a .44mag super redhawk. But I also put thousands of rounds downrange yearly and am highly trained to fire under extreme pressure. Most are not which is why I don't recommend hand guns for Bear defense. If it is a true DEFENSE against a Brown Bear, then you are going to be firing at less than 30 yards at a target that is the size of a tennis ball bouncing up and down and coming at you at around 30 to 35 mph. Now which in this case would you want, a large meplat that will input extreme force and, because of that near triple the frontal size, help if you miss the mark by a couple of inches or a rifle that you will HAVE to be dead on the money with.
It is NOT what "I read on the internet...", I communicated directly with Phil via P.M., and he said out of the 4 systems I listed , he would prefer the BAR .338 WM.
He also said that he carries a .458 WM bolt rifle, not a pump SG.
And "And dude, Just what in the hell does S.W.A.T. have to do in Alaska defense of Brown Bears?"...I was just making the point...that in life threatening situations & offensive "defense" semi-autos are used.

16n69
March 25, 2012, 12:52 PM
45/70 lever action....hands down.

I would not use a bullet as heavy as a 500+ grain though.

Something in the 400-450 gr range is plenty.

Second choice (or for a partner) would be the same rifle (45/70).

Commonality of rifle platform and ammo...could be an advantage.
Garrett recommends the 540 Hammerhead for bear...?

"FIRST CHOICE for defense against heavy grizzly"

"Our 540-gr +P Hammerhead Ammo is the ideal choice for stopping heavy bears at close quarters or hunting them at short range. This Hammerhead bullet has a meplat (frontal flat) diameter of .360”, which is just one tenth of an inch less than bore diameter. With its tremendous weight to diameter ratio (sectional density) it provides end to end penetration on the heaviest of bears, with exit, and does tremendous damage per unit of penetration due to its extremely blunt front end. This load is carried exclusively by NOAA for protection against coastal grizzly attack. It is also carried by the National Marine Fisheries Service and the U.S. Geological Survey for protection from grizzly attack.

For the specific task of stopping a grizzly charge, this ammo has no peer."

Please read Garrett's 45-70 Commentary for more information."

mbt2001
March 25, 2012, 01:14 PM
MarlinSBL 45-70 w/Garretts 540gr. SuperHardCast gas-checked Hammerhead
Benelli M4 H2O w/Brenneke Black Magic Slug
Browning BAR .338 w/300gr. Woodleigh Weldcore JSP
Ar15/M4 .458 SOCOM w/405gr. CORBON Self-Defense JSP

Any of them would work.

charlie echo
March 25, 2012, 01:25 PM
Garrett recommends the 540 Hammerhead for bear...?

"FIRST CHOICE for defense against heavy grizzly"

"Our 540-gr +P Hammerhead Ammo is the ideal choice for stopping heavy bears at close quarters or hunting them at short range. This Hammerhead bullet has a meplat (frontal flat) diameter of .360”, which is just one tenth of an inch less than bore diameter. With its tremendous weight to diameter ratio (sectional density) it provides end to end penetration on the heaviest of bears, with exit, and does tremendous damage per unit of penetration due to its extremely blunt front end. This load is carried exclusively by NOAA for protection against coastal grizzly attack. It is also carried by the National Marine Fisheries Service and the U.S. Geological Survey for protection from grizzly attack.

For the specific task of stopping a grizzly charge, this ammo has no peer."

Please read Garrett's 45-70 Commentary for more information."
Aside from the obvious need for accuracy, while under pressure, bullets with strongly constructed max' penetrators, from a .429 or .458 diameter ammo, with the highest sectional density, at heaviest weight is what I'd trust to get it right the first and only time.

This is off topic, but these chats reminds me of speed vs. penetration kind of mindsets in karate-do. I am not in favor of speed-tag sparring training, for people with years of basics, that want to go beyond superficial learning to something more practical. Matter of fact, I advocate knockdown karate "jissen kumite" (full contact continuous sparring, usually with no or minimal padding) or "fighting" in the fine sport of MMA, where the karate-ka must fend off tough wrestlers that can tackle and dump or throw so hard bones can break. The lessons I've learned from these controlled sporting endeavors is that simplicity, accuracy, and penetration are principles that creates results, aside from having lots of anaerobic endurance: "out of gas, no offense." This, what I have felt, and with the guidance from cops, hunters, and armed citizen that have shared their traumatic experiences guides my thinking on stopping attacks.

For me, unarmed training, (karate, boxing, and jiu-jitsu) must also be accompanied with weapons training (rifle, shotgun, sidearm, knife, cane, "jo"-stick). And at all times, have fun while being practical, and be respectful, even when the others are wrong.

Loosedhorse
March 25, 2012, 02:32 PM
he would prefer the BAR .338 WM.Cool. And--as you point out--Garrett prefers what Garrett prefers. And I prefer what I prefer.

Before preferring anthing in a BAR, I'd make sure that my gun/ammo functions flawlessly. Then I'd probably borrow a page from Glock: drop it in the snow, or mud, or pond-water, shake it off, and make sure it still functions perfectly.

But everyone will have their own ideas, and a lot of them will be good ones.

16n69
March 25, 2012, 05:12 PM
"drop it in the snow, or mud, or pond-water, shake it off, and make sure it still functions perfectly."

Just wondering...
...other than a Glock, I do not think many if any bolt or lever guns would work "perfectly" or at all, given your "test":eek:

Loosedhorse
March 25, 2012, 05:44 PM
"Perfectly" as in gets through a magazine of ammo without a jam. Bolt actions and levers allow you to give a little oomph if there's a wee bit of dirt or whatever on the round or in the chamber, to get the action closed and fire. The H&H belted magnum cases were designed with that scenario specifically in mind.

No change in hand position would be required for levers or bolt-actions, just a bit more force. In contrast, all a BAR has is the recoil (bolt-return) spring to return the bolt, and if it doesn't close completely, you'll get no bang on your next trigger pull, and then you can start fiddling with the operating handle...

Hey, like I said: we're allowed to have different answers. Enjoy!

Art Eatman
March 25, 2012, 07:18 PM
This not discussing; it's arguing. I see no evidence that anybody's opinion has changed from way back at the start.

Enough...

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