Saw my first open carry yesterday


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sigpro
March 19, 2012, 07:17 PM
Been living in NC for a couple of years and yesterday, I saw a civillian openly carrying a handgun. First time I've ever saw that. It was a guy on a Harley wearing what I guess was a Walther P99. Don't know if I would openly carry even if I could, but It's nice that folks have that right.

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Ryanxia
March 19, 2012, 07:30 PM
Open Carry is a wonderful thing. I find it easier to conceal carry but the best way to raise OC awareness is to host little events that raise public awareness. Some responsible groups put on an Open Carry ice cream social, others do an OC trash pick up day. We have the right so let's increase awareness so it's not as big of a deal.

usmarine0352_2005
March 19, 2012, 08:42 PM
.

What a coincidence, I saw my 1st one yesterday too.



I was at work and went into a gas station to get a drink where some other cops where and a guy on a motorcyle was open carrying.


The cops said, "What an idiot."



I didn't say anything. But the cops didn't harass him or say anything to him. I have no problem with carry. I think most cops don't. They just think it's wiser to do it concealed.
.

sigpro
March 19, 2012, 08:59 PM
I'm a Cop, and I don't have a problem with it from legal point of view. I'd just hate to be standing in line at the 7-11 with my gun exposed, when some nut comes into rob the place. I'm also not crazy about those You Tube videos where a guy goes out packing in public, with the intention of getting stopped. I get the point they are trying to make, but the Videos make both gun owners and cops look bad. Just my opinon. Oddly enough, my deptments regulation forbid open carry for off-duty officers.

kirkosaurus
March 19, 2012, 09:35 PM
I'm a Cop, and I don't have a problem with it from legal point of view. I'd just hate to be standing in line at the 7-11 with my gun exposed, when some nut comes into rob the place.

Chances are great that your exposed gun will cause him to not rob the place as criminals look for easy targets and don't want holes in them. Congratulations, your open carrying just kept a robbery from happening.

FMF Doc
March 19, 2012, 09:39 PM
Depending on where in the Great State of North Carolina you are, OC is very common. Out towards the mountains, OC is practically the standard. The law doesn't strictly forbid it, and as long as you don't get caught up with the "going armed to the terror of the public" clause you are good. I see it occasionally here in the coastal region, but not like out west. Though you also see a lot more revolvers in some pretty serious calibers out there, so OC is almost required. I'm not saying you can't conceal a Ruger SuperRedhawk Alaskan in 454 Casull, but it would take some serious effort!

Grmlin
March 19, 2012, 10:21 PM
I prefer to carry concealed, just me I'd rather the eliment of suprise if necessary. N.C. gets kind of hot/humid in the summer so its either a pocket holstered pistol or open carry. Still think it looks funny to open carry in shorts especialy lg frames.

So what is a freedom spong?
I retired from the Marine Corps 6 years ago and I still refer to non-military personel as civilians.

sigpro
March 19, 2012, 10:29 PM
Grmlin - couldn't agree more. I don't think I'd want the bad guy to know I had a gun, untill I was ready.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 19, 2012, 10:59 PM
I open carried into the bank today, the teller was a bit surprised to see me with weapons as I also had a Bulgarian AK 74 Bayonet on my left hip and my XD-40 on my right hip. The bank manager gave an obvious double take as I was leaving as he was saying goodbye.


Grmlin - couldn't agree more. I don't think I'd want the bad guy to know I had a gun, untill I was ready.

I would rather the criminal see I'm a threat to his petty well being and pick another victim instead of seeing my weapon after he has already started his attack making things even more deadly as he then starts to fight for his own life when he just wanted to steal your wallet and nothing more.

I'm not saying that OC is always better then CC but OC does have a lot of advantages going for it.
<deleted>

brickeyee
March 20, 2012, 11:06 AM
Been living in NC for a couple of years and yesterday, I saw a civillian openly carrying a handgun. First time I've ever saw that. It was a guy on a Harley wearing what I guess was a Walther P99. Don't know if I would openly carry even if I could, but It's nice that folks have that right.

Congrats on not screaming in fear and curling up in a fetal position.:what:

phil dirt
March 20, 2012, 11:12 AM
I don't like the idea of open carry. It intimidates people, and in my opinion, it does more harm to gun rights than it does good. If I, personally, saw a guy walk into my bank openly carrying a pistol and a bayonet from an AK74 on his side, my blood pressure would definitely rise. You can be sure that I would watch this guy like a hawk!

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 20, 2012, 12:24 PM
I don't like the idea of open carry. It intimidates people, and in my opinion, it does more harm to gun rights than it does good. If I, personally, saw a guy walk into my bank openly carrying a pistol and a bayonet from an AK74 on his side, my blood pressure would definitely rise. You can be sure that I would watch this guy like a hawk!

If it wasn't for the bayonet, I could be seen as an off duty cop because of my overall appearance. Tucked in shirt, many things on my belt, well groomed, and acting casual and joking around with the teller. I do understand what you are saying to a point but I wouldn't worry about someone like that if I saw them. Anyway the Bayonet just looks like a large knife to most people and it's not really any more scary that it could be mounted to a rifle.

Creature
March 20, 2012, 02:35 PM
I dont mind open carry. In fact, I applaud those who endeavor to champion the cause.

But what I do mind is when I see a knucklehead wearing a sub-standard holster that has ZERO weapon retention features with the pistol half falling out of it...or the opposite, a non-LEO, non-operator knucklehead wearing a drop-leg (tactical) holster who has yet to shoot the H&K Mk23 strapped inside it. If you choose to open carry, do it properly. Use an APPROPRIATE and QUALITY holster

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2012, 02:57 PM
I'd just hate to be standing in line at the 7-11 with my gun exposed, when some nut comes into rob the place.

Here is a real life example of what happens in that circumstance:

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/#axzz1pgVr8Vj7

From the article:
"Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really important. Luck doesn’t hurt, either.

Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner."

I'm also not crazy about those You Tube videos where a guy goes out packing in public, with the intention of getting stopped. I get the point they are trying to make, but the Videos make both gun owners and cops look bad. Just my opinon.

I agree. Just carry the dang gun for self protection in a manner that you decide is most effective for you, in your location and circumstance. I have only had one problem with a police officer who didn't personally like my choice and harrassed me for it. The rest of police officers who have been around my gun didn't care and have been 100% professional in their actions.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 20, 2012, 03:15 PM
But what I do mind is when I see a knucklehead wearing a sub-standard holster that has ZERO weapon retention features with the pistol half falling out of it...or the opposite, a non-LEO, non-operator knucklehead wearing a drop-leg (tactical) holster who has yet to shoot the H&K Mk23 strapped inside it. If you choose to open carry, do it properly. Use an APPROPRIATE and QUALITY holster

I actually saw a cop with a simple slide holster once. A criminal could have easily grabbed it and shoot him in the back before he had a chance to try and retain it. When I open carry, I now use a Galco HALO holster which is a thumb break. I will never open carry without some form of retention on the holster and I always do my best to keep aware of my surroundings and who is standing near me. I keep my right arm free to both be able to use it if God forbid and also to retain it.

I do agree about someone open carrying because it's cool, I do it because at the moment, it's the only way I can legally carry. My XD has honest wear from being used and drawn from a holster countless times during practice.

HARV6
March 20, 2012, 04:03 PM
You probly weren't the first person there that hadn't seen it before. That's a big reason why I don't personally open carry in public...its unusual, so you stick out like a turd in a punchbowl, and everyone keeps their eyes on you. Too many stories about OCing and someone calls the cops to make sure you're not a whack job. CCW and you just blend in with the crowd. I'd rather be another brick in the wall that would put down an attacker as soon as his head turned in a different direction.

sigpro
March 20, 2012, 04:03 PM
Boy, when these guys clean up a thread, they don't mess around!
Anyhow, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'll admitt that there are some pro's to open carry, but I don't think it is for me.

I actually saw a cop with a simple slide holster once.

Here's the thing about that. Lots of new hires go through the Police Academy, get issued a glock or whatever. Now, the police Academy should teach them how to shoot, and how a retention holster works, but they really don't teach them much about guns, or holsters. They will probably explain to them the laws and policies regarding off duty carry, but thats about it. So these guys get out on thier own and they have a duty weapon, they want to carry, but know nothing about concealment holsters. They are also, usually broke, being newley hired civil servants and all. So they will go out and buy a cheap Velcro and Nylon holster from the local sporting goods shop, and walk around with a barely secured, poorly concealed, full sized handgun. If they work at a decent Department, someone might pull them aside and speak with them about it. Usually they'll eventually get straightened out, one way or another, and get a decent holster.

My current dept. has fairly strict off dutyweapons policies, which give us less options that an armed civillian (uh, I mean non-sworn person). we aren't allowed to carry anything smaller than a .380, no pocket carry what-so-ever, gun has to be secure in a retention holster. Obviously no waist band carry. Some guys will actually go out and get a regular concealed carry permit, just so they can carry a .25 or a .32 in a pocket holster.

Flintknapper
March 20, 2012, 04:09 PM
phil dirt wrote:


I don't like the idea of open carry. It intimidates people, and in my opinion, it does more harm to gun rights than it does good.

Please explain?



If I, personally, saw a guy walk into my bank openly carrying a pistol and a bayonet from an AK74 on his side, my blood pressure would definitely rise. You can be sure that I would watch this guy like a hawk!

Yes, the FIRST time...maybe the second time, but generally speaking the "public" is very accepting of things (even if different) once they see no harm is being done.

ONLY by exercising our rights and exposing the (largely misinformed) "public" to responsible O.C. will we ever get them used to it. IF it were common enough, eventually....soccer Mom's would stop screaming "man with a gun", grabbing up their kids and running for their lives. :rolleyes: Sheeeesh.

BP Hunter
March 20, 2012, 04:16 PM
I also saw an individual in a gunstore open carrying. He was carrying an XD and was obviously cocked with the cocking indicator showing itself. He was carrying it with the supplied plastic holster that came with the gun. Honestly, if you were going to carry openly, at least carry it in a good holster with some form of retention.

Owen Sparks
March 20, 2012, 04:17 PM
Open carry by plain clothes law enforcement is very commom here. Sometimes they have their badge on their belt by the holster but often they don't. You can't hardly go out to lunch without seeing someone with a pistol. If a civilians were allowed to carry openly it would be such a common sight that nobody would notice.

Ryanxia
March 20, 2012, 04:25 PM
What Flintknapper said, although I CCW 99% of the time :D

Sam Cade
March 20, 2012, 04:29 PM
The cops said, "What an idiot."

You should have agreed with 'em.

Then pointed at their pistols.

That "only ones" stuff annoys the heck out of me.

av8usn
March 20, 2012, 04:38 PM
I.M.O. O.C. is a double edged sword; it does, in fact, raise the public consciousness to the legality of carrying a gun openly. On the other hand, I believe it makes the carrier a "shoot me first" consideration for the nefarious bad guys.

sigpro
March 20, 2012, 04:50 PM
The cops said, "What an idiot."



Are sure they were talking about his Gun? Maybe he was wearing white after labor day.

That "only ones" stuff annoys the heck out of me.

Just rember that those laws are not made by police officers. They are made by elected officals, and bussiness owners.

usmarine0352_2005
March 20, 2012, 05:41 PM
You should have agreed with 'em.

Then pointed at their pistols.

That "only ones" stuff annoys the heck out of me.



Did you think about what you just said there before you posted it?




I'm a cop too and when I carry off-duty, which is nearly 100% of the time, it's concealed.


I'm not here to make judgement calls on anyone, so if they choose to open carry that's fine, I just think it's not the best plan. I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand.
.

The War Wagon
March 20, 2012, 06:04 PM
Been living in NC for a couple of years and yesterday, I saw a civillian openly carrying a handgun. First time I've ever saw that.

Grew up in NC seeing it a lot more in the mountain counties in the '70's. I was 32, and had a CCW in KY, YEARS before NC finally got off their butt and approved the same.

One of the things I think actually pushed them to do it, was more & more folks decided to START exercising the open carry NC law had always allowed for. All the Yankee transplants - afraid of their own shadow - would rather guns be out of sight, AND out of mind... at least to THEIR eyes. :rolleyes:

Andela
March 20, 2012, 06:18 PM
It always surprises me how many people are against open carry. I am not directing this comment at this website but many others. Exercise your freedom or lose it.

AK103K
March 20, 2012, 06:23 PM
I prefer open and do so when in a OC state.
Make sure you know the rules before you make your statement. ;)

In PA you can open carry, but cites like Philly require you have a License to Carry Firearms (PA's permit) to do so, and you cant carry a loaded gun in the car anywhere in the state without the permit. That means you have to constantly unload and reload every time you get in and out of the car. That alone sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me.

Personally, I agree with those who say it takes away an important edge, which I think is important.

It also in general scares the sheeple. The few times Ive seen it around here in public, it did cause a commotion and drew a lot of unwanted attention. At least attention I would prefer not to have drawn to me. I know some seem to crave that though. In a way, its good to have decoys to take the heat. :)

Sam Cade
March 20, 2012, 06:25 PM
Did you think about what you just said there before you posted it?

I thought about it long and hard.






I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand.

So, would you carry concealed while in uniform if given the option?

theicemanmpls
March 20, 2012, 06:36 PM
I did armed security. Always kept a jacket in the car. When not on duty, I put jacket over my "shoot me shirt". It covered up most of the SAM Browne and duty weapon. If one looked, they could tell I was semi, sorta, kinda, sometimes, official non LEO.

The uniform, fake badge, cuffs, belt, and weapon did what is was supposed to. Along with the military bearing look, it got the job done. All a big bluff.

It did impress the kids, and uniform loving women.

I have seen some of the OC folks. They looked really strange. It shouldn't be allowed. IMHO.
If you want to oc, and its legal, well have a great time. But please do it when I am not around, so I wont openly laugh at you.

BTW, I usually CCW. Gotta snake in my pocket, just in case. NOBODY KNOWS.

just saying,,,,,,,,

AK103K
March 20, 2012, 06:36 PM
So, would you carry concealed while in uniform if given the option?
If it were me, I would. In any case where I wasnt needing my duty gun "right now", Id have my off hand on another concealed gun, ready to go. Let them watch that gun on my belt, and the hand they think is going to be the start of the problem.

The art of war is deception. ;) :D

usmarine0352_2005
March 20, 2012, 06:36 PM
.
That is fine and dandy. I prefer open and do so when in a OC state.

I do respect your opinion. Is this a great country or what?



Yep!



.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 20, 2012, 06:42 PM
They looked really strange. It shouldn't be allowed

Because something looking strange is a great reason to bring to coercive fist of government down on those who do?

HOOfan_1
March 20, 2012, 06:55 PM
Because something looking strange is a great reason to bring to coercive fist of government down on those who do?

Sometimes I have to double check to make sure I am actually on a RKBA message board....

gbran
March 20, 2012, 07:01 PM
If I go to downtown eateries near the jail and court bldg's, I commonly see un-uniformed LEO's carrying. Some have visible badges, but most don't. If people freaked out and called 911 every time they saw someone carrying, our downtown would be a mess.

Dr_B
March 20, 2012, 07:03 PM
I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand.

Exactly. Just because open carry is legal in some states doesn't mean it is the best choice for carry. My opinion is if you're carrying for protection, you want the other person to know as little about what you're capable of as possible. You don't want him/her to know where your weapon is or that you even have one.

My first encounter with open carry was when standing in line behind a lady in a local hardware store. She had a P238 in an IWB at 4 o'clock. Black pistol against a black shirt. Didn't see it until she walked out the door. Perhaps I was also distracted by "other things."

AK103K
March 20, 2012, 07:23 PM
Hey, like I said, Ill take all the decoys I can get. I have no problem with you open carrying at all. :D

CountryUgly
March 20, 2012, 07:25 PM
Chances are great that your exposed gun will cause him to not rob the place as criminals look for easy targets and don't want holes in them. Congratulations, your open carrying just kept a robbery from happening.
That may be the case if the crook walks in and checks the place out first but (and this is just my own experience/opinion here) is a non factor if the guy rushes in with gun in hand and mask on face. The guy standing in line with the exsposed firearm will be the first one shot and no you are not fast enough to draw and fire on someone who already has a gun in hand.

Quick Shot xMLx
March 20, 2012, 07:29 PM
To the TS where in NC do you live? I live in liberal northern transplant Charlotte and I see people OCing all the time. Well ok not all the time but it's not incredibly uncommon.

Marc Spector
March 20, 2012, 07:32 PM
i dont see how OC is something to laugh about. OCing makes a strong statement, and I think it's a very positive thing. Afterall, the more the public is educated about firearms, and their rights, the more safe and aware we will all be. Don't you think it would be nice to be able to open carry in public without being seen as a nut job? And I dont really think you are giving up much of an advantage by carrying open. I think it can be thought of in this simple way, if more people carried openly and responsibly, we would be living in a safer environment. Anyway, where I live, I never really see non LEO open carry... it would be nice to see.

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2012, 07:47 PM
Did you think about what you just said there before you posted it?




I'm a cop too and when I carry off-duty, which is nearly 100% of the time, it's concealed.


I'm not here to make judgement calls on anyone, so if they choose to open carry that's fine, I just think it's not the best plan. I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand.
.

So, in other words, it's perfectly fine for a police officer to call Joe Citizen an idiot for carrying a gun in they way he has decided is most effective at preventing a crime from happening to him, but you take exception when the mirror is held up in front of that officer?

I think police officers should take full advantage of the "element of surprise." Let's give only the same percentage of police officers firearms that the citizenry carries. So in NYC, that would be like 1/2 of 1%. Let's say in California, 1%. We'll go with 20% in Texas. Then those police officers have to carry concealed.

That way the BGs won't know which police officers are carrying and which ones aren't. That should really reduce the number of police officers that are shot with their own guns every year, right? That should reduce the number of officers that are shot on sight by the bad guys, right, because there would be no need to shoot the seemingly unarmed officers.

That way, the officers that ARE carrying that particular day will have the fullest advantage of the "element of surprise" in their favor, right? The bad guy gets belligerent and the police officer yells "SURPRISE! I've got the gun today, buddy! You picked the wrong cop today!"

AK103K
March 20, 2012, 08:00 PM
I dont think its fear on our part (there does seem to be fear amoungst the general populace though, and these days for obvious reasons), but to me its just common sense, and nothing to do with fear.

If you want to open carry, no ones telling you not to, it is your choice if its permitted where you live, and its what you want to do. Personally, I just dont see anything to be gained from it. The less they know, the more ahead of the curve I am.

One other reason I wouldnt do it, has nothing to do with most of whats been discussed here, and even more practical. I work outdoors in a very harsh environment most of the time. The deeper my gun is concealed, the more protected it is, it gets less abuse and requires less attention. The closer to the surface, the worst it gets. Even in a good holster and some protection, it still gets beat up. Out in the open, it would require constant attention and be subject to all manner of things, and really the only practcal holster, would be f the full coverage type, and have a flap.

HDCamel
March 20, 2012, 08:07 PM
Here in VA I see it probably 3-4 times a week (well, I did when I was a counter jockey anyway).

Really though, you hear all the stuff about OCing being a "shoot me first" sign, but I've never heard any evidence (even anecdotal) of that ever happening. Any criminal worth his salt is smart enough to go for easy marks. The kind of idiot who just bursts through the door yelling "this is a stick up" isn't going to notice if you have a gun on your hip.

Kleanbore
March 20, 2012, 08:20 PM
Posted by NavyLCDR: So, in other words, it's perfectly fine for a police officer to call Joe Citizen an idiot for carrying a gun in they way he has decided is most effective at preventing a crime from happening to him, but you take exception when the mirror is held up in front of that officer?How is that a reasonable response to "I'm a cop too and when I carry off-duty, which is nearly 100% of the time, it's concealed. ...I'm not here to make judgement calls on anyone, so if they choose to open carry that's fine, I just think it's not the best plan. I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand."?


Let's give only the same percentage of police officers firearms that the citizenry carries. So in NYC, that would be like 1/2 of 1%. Let's say in California, 1%. We'll go with 20% in Texas.Then those police officers have to carry concealed. If you are suggesting that the unarmed officers would be nonetheless sworn to uphold the law, your suggestion is absurd.

If you are suggesting otherwise, your suggestion is absurd.

We do not have legal open carry where I live. I would like to have it, but I would likely carry concealed, exposing the firearm in a non-threatening manner only occasionally.

There have been some publicized activist open carry demonstrations in some nearby communities, the result in all cases being the immediate enactment of ordinances that forbid open carry. I do not see a way to bring it about any time soon.

Pfletch83
March 20, 2012, 08:21 PM
I'm going to be open carrying more this summer.

But it isn't going to be a handgun (at least as a primary OC) my AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E (it's good to switch up from time to time)

Really hot days will see the lighter pumpgun cooler days the AR-15 (which I am going to lighten up by making it into a midlength carbine)

Sauer Grapes
March 20, 2012, 08:25 PM
I don't like the idea of open carry. It intimidates people, and in my opinion, it does more harm to gun rights than it does good. If I, personally, saw a guy walk into my bank openly carrying a pistol and a bayonet from an AK74 on his side, my blood pressure would definitely rise. You can be sure that I would watch this guy like a hawk!

Is this really the way you perceive OC'ers? I respect your right to your opinion, it just gives me pause.
I'm troubled by a lot of the comments I read on this forum reguarding "open carry".

sigpro
March 20, 2012, 08:59 PM
To the TS where in NC do you live? I live in a college town in easter NC. Lets just call it Pirate country, if you catch my drift. The two biggest employers in the county are the college in the Medical Center, neither of which allow carry, concealed or otherwise. Also, there a lots of transplants such as myself, who have never been exposed to OC. So I guess it's no surprise that you don't see OC more often.

So, would you carry concealed while in uniform if given the option? I think this is a pretty silly argument, since everyone knows that 99.9% of uniformed Officers carry a weapon.

Also, I'm a Yankee transplant, and I am not afraid of my own shadow.

Sam Cade
March 20, 2012, 09:47 PM
I think this is a pretty silly argument, since everyone knows that 99.9% of uniformed Officers carry a weapon.

Right. Bear with me.

Uniformed officers carry openly, always.


Why?

There are good reasons for it, so let's list them.

Buck Kramer
March 20, 2012, 10:17 PM
I CC. If you guys want to do it more power to you. I agree that an unpracticed right can easily be taken away, I'm just not comfortable doing it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 20, 2012, 10:24 PM
They looked really strange. It shouldn't be allowed

AR 15s and AK 47s look weird too, they should be banned.

But please do it when I am not around, so I wont openly laugh at you.

It's a handgun, not underwear. You must laugh at hunters and Police Officers all the time then.

I'm going to be open carrying more this summer.

But it isn't going to be a handgun (at least as a primary OC) my AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E (it's good to switch up from time to time)

Really hot days will see the lighter pumpgun cooler days the AR-15 (which I am going to lighten up by making it into a midlength carbine)

I see that as going too far with Open Carry and that will scare and worry people.

Kleanbore
March 20, 2012, 10:26 PM
Posted by Sam Cade: Uniformed officers carry openly, always. Why? There are good reasons for it, so let's list them.First and foremost, it is known that they are armed. What would be a good reason for concealment?

Of course, the size of the service weapon and the number of other devices carried mitigate against concealment, also.

The primary reason for concealment for the plain-clothes officer and for the civilian is to obfuscate the fact that they are carrying.

Buck Kramer
March 21, 2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
I'm going to be open carrying more this summer.

But it isn't going to be a handgun (at least as a primary OC) my AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E (it's good to switch up from time to time)

Really hot days will see the lighter pumpgun cooler days the AR-15 (which I am going to lighten up by making it into a midlength carbine)

I understand your handgun is a tool to get to your long gun, but I would like to know how many people have had to do that while raking their yard.

Sam1911
March 21, 2012, 08:33 AM
I understand your handgun is a tool to get to your long gun,

This is a very over-used and actually inappropriate concept, to a citizen self-defender, in almost all likely scenarios.

To the military, where a soldier is engaged in protracted firefights and engaged in defending a position against an attacking force, this is absolutely true.

To a citizen going about thier business, possibly being mugged or even home-invaded, this is an incompatible notion. Extremely few self-defense shootings last more than a few seconds or involve more than a handful of shots. Certainly engaging in a fighting retreat to another location where you may charge and bring to bear a rifle or shotgun is an exciting notion, but an unrealistic model of how a self-defense engagement will happen except in the most unusual, extreme, and very specific circumstances.

pockets
March 21, 2012, 09:00 AM
OC - "AR-15 or the Mossberg 500E"

"I understand your handgun is a tool to get to your long gun, but I would like to know how many people have had to do that while raking their yard."
Not me.
I keep my 'You kids get off my lawn' AR and shotgun in saddle scabbards on either side of my lawn mower.
Between those and the claymores, I can fight my way to the howitzer in my lawn shed. :)

.

Buck Kramer
March 21, 2012, 09:08 AM
This is a very over-used and actually inappropriate concept, to a citizen self-defender, in almost all likely scenarios. To the military, where a soldier is engaged in protracted firefights and engaged in defending a position against an attacking force, this is absolutely true.

To a citizen going about thier business, possibly being mugged or even home-invaded, this is an incompatible notion.

That's exactly what I'm saying, try to understand the sarcasm in the second half of that sentence.

Not me.
I keep my 'You kids get off my lawn' AR and shotgun in saddle scabbards on either side of my lawn mower.
Between those and the claymores, I can fight my way to the howitzer in my lawn shed.


If I can get to my toolshed I have a direct line to the airforce so I can level the place. :)

Sam1911
March 21, 2012, 09:13 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying, try to understand the sarcasm in the second half of that sentence.

Understood.

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 11:50 AM
So, in other words, it's perfectly fine for a police officer to call Joe Citizen an idiot for carrying a gun in they way he has decided is most effective at preventing a crime from happening to him, but you take exception when the mirror is held up in front of that officer?

How is that a reasonable response to "I'm a cop too and when I carry off-duty, which is nearly 100% of the time, it's concealed. ...I'm not here to make judgement calls on anyone, so if they choose to open carry that's fine, I just think it's not the best plan. I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand."?

Kleanbore, you are not understanding what I was replying to.

It started with this:

I was at work and went into a gas station to get a drink where some other cops where and a guy on a motorcyle was open carrying.

The cops said, "What an idiot."

The cops called the person open carrying an idiot. A response posted was:

You should have agreed with 'em.

Then pointed at their pistols.

That "only ones" stuff annoys the heck out of me.

Which I take to mean why did the cops call the guy on the motorcycle an idiot for carrying a gun exactly the same way and for likely exactly the same reason the cops were.

Followed by this response:

Did you think about what you just said there before you posted it?

I'm a cop too and when I carry off-duty, which is nearly 100% of the time, it's concealed.

I'm not here to make judgement calls on anyone, so if they choose to open carry that's fine, I just think it's not the best plan. I'd rather a bad guy not know I'm armed, so that I may have the upper hand.

Of course Sam Cade thought about what he posted before he posted it. The cops called the motorcyclist an idiot for carrying a gun exactly the same way the cops were and likely for the same reasons. Therefore, it would stand to reason that the cops were equally idiots for carrying their guns. Put the motorcylist and the cop side by side. The only difference is one is wearing a uniform and a badge and the other isn't. But they are both openly carrying a firearm for two reasons: 1. To deter a person from attacking them due to the visible show of the ability for reactive force and 2. To use for self protection should the need arise. That makes the cop on equal ground with the motorcyclist, whom the cop just called an idiot.

Hence, my reply,

So, in other words, it's perfectly fine for a police officer to call Joe Citizen an idiot for carrying a gun in they way he has decided is most effective at preventing a crime from happening to him, but you take exception when the mirror is held up in front of that officer?

The discussion had nothing to do with open carry v. concealed carry. The entire discussion was about the cop calling the motorcyclist an idiot for carry a gun exactly the same way and likely for exactly the same reason the cop himself was carrying a gun. The discussion was about how "elite" the cop felt that he was better than the motorcyclist.

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 12:05 PM
I dont think its fear on our part (there does seem to be fear amoungst the general populace though, and these days for obvious reasons), but to me its just common sense, and nothing to do with fear.

If you want to open carry, no ones telling you not to, it is your choice if its permitted where you live, and its what you want to do. Personally, I just dont see anything to be gained from it. The less they know, the more ahead of the curve I am.

Let me ask this question, AK103K. You are a criminal. You are looking for a target to rob and get away with the robbery without being caught or getting shot.

Along comes Joe Citizen who is visibly carrying a gun. What percentage of the Joe Citizen population visibly carries a gun? 1/2 of 1%? 1/10 of 1%? So, given your goal of committing an easy robbery with little chance of getting caught or getting shot, why would you attack Joe Citizen walking by who has the visible means to start a gunfight, increasing GREATLY your chance of both getting caught and/or getting shot? Why would you not just let Joe Citizen with the gun walk on by, wait around around two minutes for Jane Citizen to come along who is not visibly carrying a gun? Why pick out the 1/10th of 1% of targets that have the known capability to kill you when the remaining 99.9% of targets available aren't showing that ability?

That is common sense. Why would I not take advantage of the fact that the vast majority of criminals have no desire to get caught or get shot at and cause them to just leave me alone because I can demonstrate the ability to kill them if they choose to attack? If they want a gun, first they probably want one because they don't have one, second would it not be much easier to steal money from an unarmed person and buy a gun or steal an unattended gun than it would be to attempt to take a gun by force from a person who already has enough cahones to carry it openly?

Criminals aren't stupid, they are capable of making intelligent decisions. Career criminals do not become career criminals by making stupid mistakes. The become career criminals by taking precautions to not get shot and not get caught during their careers. Attack the 1 guy out of 1000 that has the capability to kill them and increase their chance of getting caught by starting a gunfigt does nothing to enhance their career goals.

The less they know, the more ahead of the curve I am.

How does concealing your gun place you more ahead of the curve than the criminal? The only time you can use your gun is when you have already fallen behind the curve and the criminal has already gained the upper hand over you and you must use your gun to conteract that and attempt to regain control over a situation that you have already lost control over.

Sure, you have the defensive upper hand over your non-armed target counterparts. But carrying concealed, you must wait to use your gun in defense of an attack that has already been launched by the criminal. I can use my gun as a visible sign that says, "Just move on, pal....it's not worth your effort to stop here." That may not stop all criminals. But if it stops just one, then I have stopped one more criminal from attacking me than carrying concealed would.

sigpro
March 21, 2012, 12:41 PM
The cops said, "What an idiot."

First of all, a Cop referring to a member of the Public as an Idiot is very unprofessional. Especially in an environment where people will overhear him.

However, I think the statement :

The entire discussion was about the cop calling the motorcyclist an idiot for carry a gun exactly the same way and likely for exactly the same reason the cop himself was carrying a gun.

Is a over generalization. Cops carry guns not only to protect themselves, but to protect others as well. Also, LEO's are regularly put into situation where the chances for chance violence are much higher than those experienced by most non-LEO's. Your average armed Citizen is not going to be called to a domestic disturbance, tasked with apprehending a violent felon, or stopping cars in the middle of the night. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Also, I don't know a lot Cops who consider themselves to be "Elite", and if they do, it has nothing to do with OC.

JustinJ
March 21, 2012, 03:45 PM
Along comes Joe Citizen who is visibly carrying a gun. What percentage of the Joe Citizen population visibly carries a gun? 1/2 of 1%? 1/10 of 1%? So, given your goal of committing an easy robbery with little chance of getting caught or getting shot, why would you attack Joe Citizen walking by who has the visible means to start a gunfight, increasing GREATLY your chance of both getting caught and/or getting shot? Why would you not just let Joe Citizen with the gun walk on by, wait around around two minutes for Jane Citizen to come along who is not visibly carrying a gun? Why pick out the 1/10th of 1% of targets that have the known capability to kill you when the remaining 99.9% of targets available aren't showing that ability?

Just to play devil's advocate, what if you are in a grocery store standing in line, gun open on hip, when in comes a pair of armed robbers with ski masks and shotguns at the ready? In said situation, which does commonly occur, they don't wait to see if anybody is openly carrying. That gun on your hip may lead them to shoot you since you are an obvious theat before you can even start to draw. There are millions of potential scenarios but i see having a concealed firearm over an open firearm as the greater advantage in the majority of them.

sigpro
March 21, 2012, 03:54 PM
If John McClane open carried "Die Hard" would have been a 20 minute movie, and we would awaiting the release of "Die Hard 5" I think it's going to be called "Die Already!"

Seriously, I think JUSTINJ summed it up pretty well.

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 04:14 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, what if you are in a grocery store standing in line, gun open on hip, when in comes a pair of armed robbers with ski masks and shotguns at the ready? In said situation, which does commonly occur, they don't wait to see if anybody is openly carrying. That gun on your hip may lead them to shoot you since you are an obvious theat before you can even start to draw. There are millions of potential scenarios but i see having a concealed firearm over an open firearm as the greater advantage in the majority of them.

Then you will be able to provide examples to us of where that has actually happened in real life?

I will lead:

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/#axzz1pmgCJ6h5

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really important. Luck doesn’t hurt, either.

Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.

Not my words above, that was the President of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. A single or group of armed men busting into a business to rob the place, waving guns and yelling for everyone to get down are not going to take the time to examine every person to see what they might or might not be carrying on their belt. It takes less movement to draw and fire a gun from an open holster than to draw one from concealment, and it's pretty easy to 90% conceal an openly carried handgun by holding your elbow against it.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5033/28929137059395632015758.jpg

Sam Cade
March 21, 2012, 04:24 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, what if you are in a grocery store standing in line next to a police officer with his gun on hip, when in comes a pair of armed robbers with ski masks and shotguns at the ready?



There are millions of potential scenarios but I see having an openly carried firearm over an concealed one as being the greater advantage in the majority of them.

Victims are chosen on the basis of apparent weakness and low risk to the offender.
How often do you hear of a uniformed officer being mugged or a police station getting robbed?

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 04:27 PM
I don't particularly care if anyone open carries or carries concealed. I just think it is unwise to not acknowledge the benefits of both.... and to make blanket judgements about which method is better for everyone in all situations. When a theory is presented, such as the "you'll be shot first theory" I think it is important to figure out if it has actually happened in real life or not and the commonality of that occurence.

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 04:29 PM
There are millions of potential scenarios but I see having an openly carried firearm over an concealed one as being the greater advantage in the majority of them.

Victims are chosen on the basis of apparent weakness and low risk to the offender.
How often do you hear of a uniformed officer being mugged or a police station getting robbed?

However, there ARE poice officers whose guns are taken from them and they are shot with their own guns. Of course, those occur when the criminal is seeking to escape arrest, which is not applicable to Joe Ordinary Citizen in normal life, unless you are the type of Joe Ordinary Citizen that has a fetish for making citizen's arrests. ;)

OurSafeHome.net
March 21, 2012, 04:40 PM
The uniform, fake badge, cuffs, belt, and weapon did what is was supposed to. Along with the military bearing look, it got the job done. All a big bluff.

It did impress the kids, and uniform loving women.


The main reason why 'women love a man in uniform': It means he has a job.

Sam Cade
March 21, 2012, 04:45 PM
However, there ARE poice officers whose guns are taken from them and they are shot with their own guns. Of course, those occur when the criminal is seeking to escape arrest, which is not applicable to Joe Ordinary Citizen in normal life, unless you are the type of Joe Ordinary Citizen that has a fetish for making citizen's arrests. ;)

lol...

I suddenly hear Gomer Pyle in my head.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efgLHgsBmM

tomrkba
March 21, 2012, 04:51 PM
I dont mind open carry. In fact, I applaud those who endeavor to champion the cause.

But what I do mind is when I see a knucklehead wearing a sub-standard holster that has ZERO weapon retention features with the pistol half falling out of it...or the opposite, a non-LEO, non-operator knucklehead wearing a drop-leg (tactical) holster who has yet to shoot the H&K Mk23 strapped inside it. If you choose to open carry, do it properly. Use an APPROPRIATE and QUALITY holster

What gets me is Safariland ALS holsters are available at opticsplanet.net for $29-$50. Wait for a sale and you can get it for around $35 shipped.

However, there ARE poice officers whose guns are taken from them and they are shot with their own guns. Of course, those occur when the criminal is seeking to escape arrest, which is not applicable to Joe Ordinary Citizen in normal life, unless you are the type of Joe Ordinary Citizen that has a fetish for making citizen's arrests.

SouthNarc's ECQC (Craig Douglas, shivworks.com) course helps take care of this problem. It was the single best self-defense course I have ever attended. He spends quite a bit of time on pre-attack indicators, awareness and combatives.

The_Armed_Therapist
March 21, 2012, 05:07 PM
Last week, I was at a Meijer store (like Wal-Mart) in Michigan with my Brother-in-Law. He was open-carrying and I was concealing. A very angry woman walked up to my BIL and said, "How do you get away with having that in here?!?!" (very huffy-puffy. lol)... He just stared at her for a few seconds, smiled, and said, "Because I can. It's legal." She replied accusingly, "In Michigan?!?!" HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Then I said, not only that, but you can conceal, too. I pulled back my jacket exposing my piece. She was very appalled and stormed away. LOL

In retrospect, I would have liked to handle it a little differently. There's nothing positive (besides guilty satisfaction) to come from making someone even more angry on the matter.

Mr. Farknocker
March 21, 2012, 05:31 PM
Imagining my seeing an OC triggers memories of Gun Smoke for some strange reason.

Brockak47
March 21, 2012, 05:41 PM
I see it all the time here in AZ. Doesn't really phase me

MyGreenGuns
March 21, 2012, 05:44 PM
The first time I saw open carry was shortly after I bought my first handgun.

It was just some guy at the gas station, but I asked him a ton of questions from across the pump.

He seemed more weirded out than I did over the event. Sorry guy, I was just curious.

I've open carried my own gun a few times. It is legal here.

Most recently was when I realized I had left my wallet at home. I have my carry permit in the wallet, I had a gun on my hip.

Simple fix, uncover the weapon. Now its legal again. :)

AK103K
March 21, 2012, 08:09 PM
Along comes Joe Citizen who is visibly carrying a gun. What percentage of the Joe Citizen population visibly carries a gun? 1/2 of 1%? 1/10 of 1%? So, given your goal of committing an easy robbery with little chance of getting caught or getting shot, why would you attack Joe Citizen walking by who has the visible means to start a gunfight, increasing GREATLY your chance of both getting caught and/or getting shot? Why would you not just let Joe Citizen with the gun walk on by, wait around around two minutes for Jane Citizen to come along who is not visibly carrying a gun? Why pick out the 1/10th of 1% of targets that have the known capability to kill you when the remaining 99.9% of targets available aren't showing that ability?
In your scenario, youre making an assumption the bad guy gives a rats ass.

Maybe hes drunk and/or drugged up, and just being an ass, or is he thinks your the ass for wearing your gun like that and wants you to know about it?

Maybe hes annoyed that your showing off your gun, and hes not at all impressed with you and your fancy shooter, and hes going to see just how bad you really are.

We can go on forever with silly little scenarios, but the truth is, it is what it is, and you can never know for sure whats coming until its there. Reality is often surrealistic, and nothing near what you think reality is.


How does concealing your gun place you more ahead of the curve than the criminal? The only time you can use your gun is when you have already fallen behind the curve and the criminal has already gained the upper hand over you and you must use your gun to conteract that and attempt to regain control over a situation that you have already lost control over.
How do you figure that youre behind the curve and lost control because your gun is out of sight? Just because my gun is out of sight doesnt mean Im not paying attention. By having it out of sight, I choose when its presence is to be known, and not telegraph it to the world.

But carrying concealed, you must wait to use your gun in defense of an attack that has already been launched by the criminal. I can use my gun as a visible sign that says, "Just move on, pal....it's not worth your effort to stop here." That may not stop all criminals. But if it stops just one, then I have stopped one more criminal from attacking me than carrying concealed would.
Again, how are you coming up with this? I can keep the gun covered until the last second, or I can draw it and have it ready, if I feel the need. Id prefer to have the choice.

Youre making the assumption that people are afraid of your gun, which I see very much as wishful thinking. Youre not a tough guy just because you have a gun on your belt, and if you think its going to scare bad guys away, I think you might want to rethink that. If you think it gives you an edge, thats great. I truly hope that works as well for you, as I find keeping it covered does for me.

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 09:28 PM
How do you figure that youre behind the curve and lost control because your gun is out of sight? Just because my gun is out of sight doesnt mean Im not paying attention. By having it out of sight, I choose when its presence is to be known, and not telegraph it to the world.

So you admit it is really your situational awareness that keeps you ahead of the curve. Your concealed gun can do nothing to hinder the criminal until you decide to draw it. Draw it from concealment and hold it in your hand and now the subject of your concerns calls the cops and says (correctly) that you pulled a gun on him. Now you are left explaining to the police why you pulled your gun on the guy on the phone with 911 claiming he didn't do a damn thing but look at you too long.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 21, 2012, 11:26 PM
In retrospect, I would have liked to handle it a little differently. There's nothing positive (besides guilty satisfaction) to come from making someone even more angry on the matter.

She sounded like someone that wouldn't be smart enough to argue with regarding this considering the way she carried herself in that situation.

Again, how are you coming up with this? I can keep the gun covered until the last second, or I can draw it and have it ready, if I feel the need. Id prefer to have the choice.

His point is that he can use his gun to deter criminals actively instead of possibly making things more deadly by drawing his gun on a criminal.

AK103K
March 22, 2012, 05:48 AM
So you admit it is really your situational awareness that keeps you ahead of the curve.
Who ever said it wasnt?

All carrying a gun it the open does, is aide the other guy in his.

Your concealed gun can do nothing to hinder the criminal until you decide to draw it.
Nor can the openly carried gun. Both need to be drawn to be effective. Neither should be drawn or used as a threat. Some consider the gun carried in the open, legal or not, a threat, and thats something that has to be considered, even if you dont like it.

Youre making an assumption that a gun carried in the open is a deterrent, and I dont buy that. If someone is determined, its not going to deter them, and youve given them an edge someone carrying concealed hasnt.

His point is that he can use his gun to deter criminals actively instead of possibly making things more deadly by drawing his gun on a criminal.
Again, this is all based on the assumption that people are as impressed by your gun as you are.

Reality is, all it tends to do, is just aggravate and annoy the general populace, and the police who have to respond, especially in areas where its not something normally seen.

If you like the attention, and dont mind dealing with the cops stopping you from time to time, hey, have at it. Me, I hate the attention, and would prefer to just go about my business looking like anyone else on the street.

Then again, it is fun watching the circus at the Walmart when someone who does like the attention goes walking by with the parade in tow. :)

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 07:51 AM
Some people are so dead set in their ways, no amount of common sense reasoning will allow them to even acknowledge their are benefits to any way of doing things that doesn't fit into their own theories and way of thinking. Oh well.

Here are what the facts are to allow people to make an intelligent decision for themselves:

http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf
Page 12

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew.

If you want to rely upon your quick draw skills to defend yourself in a situation where the criminal has already chosen you as target because you look like 99.9% of every other Joe Citizen out there, that is your choice (unless your state has made that choice for you.) Personally, I would rather show the criminal that it just isn't worth it and let them decide to wait two minutes for an easier target to come along, or walk down the street one block for the easier target.

My goal is to protect myself and my family from the criminal - not to purge the earth of the scourge of the criminal. I honestly feel that some concealed carry only people are of the mindset that they would rather just be judge, jury and executioner if given the chance to have a confrontation with a criminal so they can be "Hero for a day." That's just not me.

On the other hand, there are those open carriers that like to show their guns on youtube who are looking to be "Hero for a day" by baiting some cop to say something to them about their gun. Every group has it's extremists.

sharkman
March 22, 2012, 08:28 AM
USMARINE 0352 said: "What a coincidence, I saw my 1st one yesterday too.



I was at work and went into a gas station to get a drink where some other cops where and a guy on a motorcyle was open carrying.


The cops said, "What an idiot."



I didn't say anything. But the cops didn't harass him or say anything to him. I have no problem with carry. I think most cops don't. They just think it's wiser to do it concealed."





Was he using some sort of retention holster? If not then he was an idiot. I ride, usually CC, sometimes OC. Gotta use some sorta retention holster when I'm on my Road King.

I'm not commenting on CC vs. OC, just the wisdom of open carry on a moving motorcycle without some sort of retention...

theicemanmpls
March 22, 2012, 09:50 AM
Open carry in certain areas of America is more common then others. Where I live it is very rare.

It used to be legal in **********, provided one didn't have any bullets in the gun. OC, with empty gun, more then STUPID, IMO.

Some people in that special land of milk and honey decided to jump on the CCW band wagon. They had public carry gatherings. The cries of outrage could be heard though out the land. Especially from those in Hollyweird.

Jerry Brown, aka Governor Moonbean responded to the cries of distress, and now, in that very special place, they went at least 3 steps backward!

IMO, don't be the turd in the punchbowl.


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/10/local/la-me-brown-guns-20111011


This ruins it all for everyone.

hogshead
March 22, 2012, 10:03 AM
Ak103k You are assuming that all criminals are armed with a gun. Ever heard the old saying"Don't bring a knife to a gun fight". I'm sure a criminal with a knife would think twice before attacking a person open carrying .
I open carry all the time when hiking, riding horse's or 4 wheelers. Never had anyone say anything about it. Never been robbed either.

ForumSurfer
March 22, 2012, 10:22 AM
I open carry here in NC from time to time, but I prefer to conceal....just a preference.

I believe situational awareness trumps any conjecture regarding open carrying making you a target or a deterrent.

I'd also like to point this out quoted from an article:
Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire.
Practice, practice, practice. IWB draw from underneath a cover garment can happen fast. Go to an IDPA event and see just how fast some experienced competitors can be in real world carry gear. :)

Ala Dan
March 22, 2012, 10:22 AM
Quite often I open carry, here in Alabama. I have had 0 problems thus far; but
most of our LEO's [and you fine folk's] know that I am a former LEO myself. If
that makes a difference; I can't say for sure, but I still buy a concealed carry
license every year. Monies raised are used at the Sheriffs discretion; but my
Sheriff [The Honorable Mike Hale] uses monies collected from the "sale" of
pistol license, to support the Sheriff's Boys and Girls Ranches here in Alabama.
So, I don't mind contributing my fair share ($7.50@ year) to this worthy cause.

Sam1911
March 22, 2012, 11:01 AM
Go to an IDPA event and see just how fast some experienced competitors can be in real world carry gear.And yet...open IS faster. No way around that. For what it's worth...

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 11:11 AM
And yet...open IS faster. No way around that. For what it's worth...

AND less movement to attract the attention of a bad guy in the convenience store/restaurant/bank robbery scenario. If the bad guy is watching everyone close enough to determine if they are carrying a gun on their belt or not, then surely they are watching everyone close enough to see someone fishing a gun out of concealment.

AND less chance of something going wrong with the motion of drawing the gun such as missing the grab for the cover garment or the gun getting snagged.

brickeyee
March 22, 2012, 11:56 AM
Six ,if Oklahoma's permit OC bill gets signed off by the Gov.

Makes me like Virginia even more.

We have NO laws prohibiting open carry, so it is legal.

For a very long time.

25cschaefer
March 22, 2012, 01:26 PM
An open carry gun is instantly concealed to women by holding a baby; my wife and I were at Wal-Mart and I was carrying my little one on the opposite hip of my HK in a Bianchi retention holster when an older lady could not help but squeal about how cute my son was. In the course of her conversation with my wife, her husband asked, "Is that a USP?"
"Yep, 40."
"I carry a Kimber in 38 super." he said as he tapped his hip.
The lady was oblivious as she waved, "bu-bye, bu-bye." to our little one.

I carry concealed when I am not wearing higher rise pants (Carharts), I have a funny shape as I am tall but is is all in my legs, if I use an IWB in the work pants, the butt of the grip digs into my ribs if I lean over or sit down. I like Levi 527 as they are low rise boot cut but I do not buy Levis any more and am still searching for another company that makes a low rise jean that is not straight leg.

Most people in MT and CO either don't notice or don't care.

theicemanmpls
March 22, 2012, 02:06 PM
AND less movement to attract the attention of a bad guy in the convenience store/restaurant/bank robbery scenario. If the bad guy is watching everyone close enough to determine if they are carrying a gun on their belt or not, then surely they are watching everyone close enough to see someone fishing a gun out of concealment.

AND less chance of something going wrong with the motion of drawing the gun such as missing the grab for the cover garment or the gun getting snagged.
Odds are, one has a better chance of winning the power ball drawing then then foiling a armed robbery by doing the OC.

I am not a peace officer. I carry to defend my family and myself. Not to protect the assets of a soul-less corporation.

If involved in a situation such as this, its a totally judgment call. To draw, or not to draw. I think doing the OC will force ones hand in a direction they could of avoided. If my family is with, it makes it even more complicated. I sure do not wish to draw fire in their direction.

Wearing a holster on ones hip, for the whole world to see, does not make them Clint Eastwood.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I want to go home every night.

ForumSurfer
March 22, 2012, 02:13 PM
then surely they are watching everyone close enough to see someone fishing a gun out of concealment.

With practice most anyone can draw from IWB and get their first shot off in well under a second. I don't consider that "fishing around."

AND less chance of something going wrong with the motion of drawing the gun such as missing the grab for the cover garment or the gun getting snagged.

Agreed. My first match I completely missed the cover garment grab because I was wearing a cover garment and a jacket. I grabbed the jacket but not the garment....resulting in a handful of gun and shirt. That under 1 second draw went to over 2 because I had to let go and start over (and cuss). That's why you practice regularly with the gear you'll carry and what you'll be wearing.

I'm not debating which is faster...I'm just arguing that drawing from concealment isn't exactly a slow, tedious affair with the right equipment and practice (and more practice).

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 02:23 PM
Here's a way to have the best of both worlds, for those concerned:

When walking down the street, open carry where allowed so that if a bad guy is sizing you up as an individual target, he can see the gun and simply wait two minutes for you to walk by or go down the street one block and pick out one of the 99.9% of the public not visibly armed.

When you enter the convenience store/restaurant/grocery store/bank, flip your shirt over the gun to conceal it so the bad guy won't come busting in the door and shoot you first (not yet to have ever happened, but ANYTHING can happen).

Best of both worlds.

Sam1911
March 22, 2012, 02:26 PM
With practice most anyone can draw from IWB and get their first shot off in well under a second. I don't consider that "fishing around."

Really? Under a second?

My fastest time EVER was 1.12, from concealment, and that was standing on an indoor range, waiting for the "Beep."

Now you may be a lot more accomlpished than I am -- I am no Jerry Miculek (though I once beat him in a side match...;)) -- but I do not in any way buy this "most people" business.

I've MET "most people." They ain't that good!

Baba Louie
March 22, 2012, 03:06 PM
In Las Vegas, NV, I saw a "cowboy" type at the grocery store last night carrying a 1911 openly on hip. I asked him, "Colt, Kimber or Springfield"?

Cowboy turned to me, sized me up, and answered back... "Wilson" with a smile on his face. I had to smile too as I nodded my approval. While he did have lace ups on as opposed to cockroach killer ropin/ridin' boots, he was most certainly an outdoor kinda guy and I doubt anyone with half a brain would willingly give him grief.

While OC is not for me in town, it works for some. More power to them.

Stevie-Ray
March 22, 2012, 03:29 PM
There are millions of potential scenarios but i see having a concealed firearm over an open firearm as the greater advantage in the majority of them.
Disagree. I CC most of the time and OC pretty much the rest, but IMO most of the crimes committed with a gun, i.e. in sheer numbers, are probably robberies in stores, or of people, where the gun is pulled by one perp, money taken and perp runs off. In these cases, for the most part, I'd say OC makes you no target, CC makes you a possible. Where's the advantage in that?

Never heard of a gun store being robbed during business hours.

Sam Cade
March 22, 2012, 03:32 PM
Never heard of a gun store being robbed during business hours.

It does happen.

...the clerk should have been armed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmF0GJuHz9I


...luckily his buddy was.:evil:

sigpro
March 22, 2012, 03:39 PM
I'll continue to CC, if for no other reason that I'm too lazy to tuck my shirt in. Quite the thread I started. Not saying I'll ever OC, but i never realized there were so many arguments for OC.

Panzercat
March 22, 2012, 04:02 PM
I see it all the time here in AZ. Doesn't really phase me
Pretty much. I think the first time I consciously recall it was as a teen waiting for a table at an IHOP.

ThomasR
March 22, 2012, 04:04 PM
I carried CC for thirteen years, now I've OC carried for two years.
I have to agree that predators look for the helpless, weak and unaware, human and animal predator follow this law of nature.
A personal example of many of this in action is when I OC'd to my favorite restaurant in ALBQ. NM.
A human predator was scoping out the people entering the rest. for a possible target, of course, the sheep were completely oblivious, so i walk past the wolf and make brief eye contact, we recognize each other for what we are, sheepdog and wolf, he immediately turns a one eighty and walks down the street, I never see him again.
It's obvious to anyone who's had any real experience with true predators and not just wanna be's, the predators stand out from the sheep like they have a flashing red light on their head, the predators are the same way, they can recognize the sheepdogs in the same way, law of mother nature people, it's why cops don't CC.

old fart
March 22, 2012, 06:21 PM
i open carry here in kentucky, i'm in monroe county and never had a problem. i've heard bigger cities can cause trouble but that will soon change. there is a statute in the kentucky consitution that forbids city, or county to have anything to do with the open carrying of firearms but some cities try. house bill 500 passed the house and is now gonna be voted by the senate and all indications are it will pass, and if signed by the govenor will penalize any city or city official that violates krs 65.870, 522.020, 522.030. thanks

Kleanbore
March 22, 2012, 06:53 PM
Posted by ThomasR: A personal example of many of this in action...A human predator was scoping out the people entering ... for a possible target, of course, the sheep were completely oblivious, so i walk past the wolf and make brief eye contact, we recognize each other for what we are, sheepdog and wolf,...Thomas, the term "sheepdog" is usually not well received on THR.

ThomasR
March 22, 2012, 07:22 PM
Thanks Johnny Dollar, yeah, it's been an interesting journey to get to this point.
Hello Kleanbore, I read the term in Lt. Col. Grossman (ret) essay "Of Wolves, Sheep and Sheepdogs", for me it it had alot of truth; so fill me in if you would, i'd be interested in understanding what you said.

Grmlin
March 22, 2012, 07:41 PM
WOW Sigpro this post took off!!

CC or OC? They are both good, we are all exercising our rights. Each one has it's pros and cons, and we all know the key is to practice, practice, practice which ever way you prefer and then practice the other way just as much. I try to as much as I can with both ways and both hands and different styles. I found some that just don't work for me others that work great for me.
Like I said before I primarily CC when in town, when the wife and I go for a walk OC and I usually set up for cross draw. I will say when I were shorts you all would get a good laugh if I OC my .357 or XD .40.

At least we can all agree on our right to carry I hope.

AK103K
March 22, 2012, 07:42 PM
A couple of things here and Im going to step off, as some of us seem to have differeing views that arent going to go anywhere but farther into annoyance.

First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

Ive been carrying a gun daily (and concealed) for over 30 years now. Because of my line of work, Ive worked everywhere from deep woods to open farmland to some nasty inner city areas that even the police didnt seem to want to go, as we rarely saw one when we were there, day or night. I was happy I had my gun, and I was happy my buddy had his. No one ever targeted us personally, although some of our equipment didnt fair as well (maybe it should have been open carrying. OK, OK, sorry, I couldnt resit it, and Ill stop. :D)

Second, as ThomasR pointed out, how you carry yourself and how you act, actually goes a lot farther than what gear you may or may not be showing. Generally, if you act like a victim, youre likely to be one, even with a gun on your belt.

I will say this though, with dead seriousness, if youre wearing a gun, you better have some realistic skills, and be ready to use both without hesitation. If you havent worked this through in earnest beforehand, youre way behind the curve before you start.

From my experiences in some inner city neighborhoods, a gun carried openly would likely have been taken the wrong way, and have caused more problems, than not. While even the obviously criminal element was for the most part tolerating us being there, I truly believe that a blatantly exposed gun would have been the cause of trouble.

Ill admit, this is all just assumption on my part, as while we were working there, OC was not permitted at the time (some places, even carrying at all was verboten), and its still a big hassle with the cops as Im sure youve seen in that youtube video going around by the boy who was basically daring the cops to notice.

All the "studies" and statistics are great and all, but like all the paper ballistic arguments bandied around the net, to me, they lack the actual substance of actual personal experience. Now if you have carried in places like Im describing above, and have some real word experiences that show your claims that its truly a deterrent, that would tend to add some credibility to those claims.

Mainsail
March 22, 2012, 08:28 PM
First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I carried openly on a DAILY basis for almost five years in Tacoma's Stadium District. In case you were unaware, Tacoma has the highest crime rate of any city in the entire Pacific Northwest. I never had a problem and my open carry deterred one crime against me (that I'm aware of).

The fantasies of the anti-gun folks and the anti open carry folks who assume they understand criminal psychology are proven wrong every day, yet whether it's Sarah Brady or some folks in here, they refuse to believe.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 22, 2012, 08:43 PM
First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I have no need to go to those places and I would avoid them the best I could. If I felt uncomfortable I could still cover up my weapon. It's not set in stone that I need to always carry openly or that open is the 100% way to go.

AABEN
March 22, 2012, 08:57 PM
Open Carry is a wonderful thing. I find it easier to conceal carry but the best way to raise OC awareness is to host little events that raise public awareness. Some responsible groups put on an Open Carry ice cream social, others do an OC trash pick up day. We have the right so let's increase awareness so it's not as big of a deal.
I think you have a good way to get people use to open carry. The states that have open carry should have gun clubs put some of thees on at lease 3 times a year all over the state.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2012, 12:54 AM
First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I have open carried in the worst neighborhoods of Seattle. As for those others places you mention, why the hell would I go there? I have no need to go there and those are not my idea of prime vacation spots. I feel no need to go someplace for the sole purpose of showing my gun there. I will leave that for those guys that like to make youtube videos.

I'll continue to CC, if for no other reason that I'm too lazy to tuck my shirt in. Quite the thread I started. Not saying I'll ever OC, but i never realized there were so many arguments for OC.

Pretty amazing what you might discover when you are willing to keep your mind open to other points of view, eh? Nobody has the right answer for everybody in every situation, although some certainly like to claim they do. I have my CPL so that I can legally conceal my gun when I feel that is the most effective way to protect myself and my family from violent crime.

There are simply times when open carry is more effective and appropriate and times when concealed carry is more effective and appropriate.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 23, 2012, 01:03 AM
First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I have open carried in downtown Detroit, and have gone with buddies who have done so as well. As long as you dress somewhat nicely, the DPD hasn't messed with me. I don't make a habit of going down there at night, unless I'm going to Town Pump or Bookies in a large group. Those are bars so I cannot carry inside anyways, but if I'm doing other things in Detroit, like visiting some friends who live around there, I do open carry.

AK103K
March 23, 2012, 08:17 AM
The fantasies of the anti-gun folks and the anti open carry folks who assume they understand criminal psychology are proven wrong every day, yet whether it's Sarah Brady or some folks in here, they refuse to believe.
Sarah Brady and the antis aside, I dont disbelieve, I just dont see the point of possibly putting oneself into a situation that wouldnt likely occur if the gun wasnt visible. As far as knowing the criminal mind, this is why I asked about actually open carrying on foot and interacting amongst them on a regular basis. Ive done it for years concealed, and no way it will happen openly. I wont throw down that glove or give up that edge.

As I said before, I dont care if you open carry, its your right, but you also have to deal with the (for me, unwanted) attention it brings when it does come, and it does come. Ive personally seen that a couple of times here. OC is legal, but its not often seen, at least outside the few political statement type gatherings. Ive seen more about it on the local news than I have on the ground, and on the news, it was more about cops not knowing or understanding the law, and the aggravation that that brought. If you like to draw that type attention, have at it. Again, as I said before, bait and decoys are a good thing to me, and always welcome. :)

Even if I wanted do it, from the stand point of actually doing it here and trying to get on with your daily life, I dont see it being a realistic thing. If I didnt have a carry permit (so the gun could remain constantly loaded), as much as I move about and what I do for a living, between the constant loading/reloading when getting in and out of my truck (something that does you no good in a car jack situation, I might add), the environment Im often in, and worrying that something I was wearing work wise, might inadvertently "cover" the gun and put me in a bad situation in that respect, and just having a gun someplace probably shoudnt anyway, it just wouldnt work. But thats me and my lifestyle.

I have no need to go to those places and I would avoid them the best I could.

As for those others places you mention, why the hell would I go there? I have no need to go there and those are not my idea of prime vacation spots.

You dont get to play that one here. If you want to make your point, it needs to be "anywhere, anytime", after all, its you telling us that its such a deterrent and great idea. If thats true, then there shouldnt be a problem. Simply seeing your gun will keep trouble at bay, right?

Some of us dont have the luxury of avoiding or staying out of those type places. Ive had to work in all three places I used above, as well as a few others. A few of those places, we werent permitted to have a gun at all either. Open carry is definitely a no go there.

Theres also a bit of a difference between getting out of your car and walking down a city street with a lot of other people around, and being in secluded areas with no one else around.

If you want to see where the Iron Crosses grow, come work with me for a couple of weeks and wear your gun openly. You can prove your case, and we always welcome another decoy. :)

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2012, 08:39 AM
I just dont see the point of possibly putting oneself into a situation that wouldnt likely occur if the gun wasnt visible.

I don't see the point of possibly allowing myself to be the target of a criminal in a situation that wouldn't likely occur if the gun was visible.

AK103K
March 23, 2012, 09:12 AM
As I said, come work with me and well put your theory to a live test. ;)

Who knows, maybe you'll make youtube too. We know how the Philly cops feel about it. :D

Since we know thats not happening, as you dont go to places like that, Ill leave it at that and you boys can keep at it.

Kleanbore
March 23, 2012, 09:18 AM
Posted by ThomasR: Hello Kleanbore, I read the term in Lt. Col. Grossman (ret) essay "Of Wolves, Sheep and Sheepdogs", for me it it had alot of truth; so fill me in if you would, i'd be interested in understanding what you said [(refers to "the term "sheepdog" is usually not well received on THR")].Col. Grossman was not referring to civilians who exercise the right to bear arms for the purpose of lawful self defense and who do not have a sworn duty to protect others by enforcing the law.

This subject has come up more than once. Here are a few relevant comments from the past:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5140543&postcount=35

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5140631&postcount=37

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5141103&postcount=42

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5141147&postcount=43

TITAN308
March 23, 2012, 09:45 AM
Not sure if someone brought it up yet (did not read all 4 pages), but I'd like to say the biggest urban myth for us OCers is we are "targeted first in a crime because you clearly have a gun".

When you ask someone who says this to provide a resource for said argument, well - they never can.

45_auto
March 23, 2012, 10:40 AM
My fastest time EVER was 1.12, from concealment, and that was standing on an indoor range, waiting for the "Beep."

Now you may be a lot more accomlpished than I am -- I am no Jerry Miculek (though I once beat him in a side match...) -- but I do not in any way buy this "most people" business.

I've MET "most people." They ain't that good!

No need to bring reality into an internet discussion, Sam! Don't challenge their illusions!

I ran IDPA matches for 7 years, your 1.12 is pretty good. "Most People" have never tested themselves but just know that they are at least the equal of Wyatt Earp.

In the real world, the adrenaline rush of waiting for a buzzer to go off brings on acts of incompetence to new competitors that you can't imagine.

In reality, having to draw their weapon for real, with their lack of training and loss of small muscle control caused by the adrenaline rush, would probably put "Most People" on here nearer the 5 second mark.

TITAN308
March 23, 2012, 10:42 AM
Better to have and not need, then to not have and need.

Or something.

theicemanmpls
March 23, 2012, 10:51 AM
As I said, come work with me and well put your theory to a live test. ;)

Who knows, maybe you'll make youtube too. We know how the Philly cops feel about it. :D

Since we know thats not happening, as you dont go to places like that, Ill leave it at that and you boys can keep at it.
+1 ak103k.
I worked armed roving security in Oakland CA. Dog shift supervisor.
The gun was part of the uniform. It was all about running a bluff.

Walk down those streets wearing civilian clothing doing the OC? Couldn't pay me enough money.

People who think wearing a gun will keep themselves safe are fooling themselves, and trying to fool others. IMHO. In metro areas, it brings down upon the most unwanted attention from many sources.

Maybe people who OC like the attention? Maybe they like frightening old maids, and liberals? I don't want to frighten anyone.

The whole idea of CCW is to hide in plain site. Snake in the pocket. Why would anyone want to be the turd in the punchbowl?

Even in the old west OC was not that common. The natural elements as everyone here knows has a terrible effect on firearms. Firearms were very expensive in those days. Most folks kept their firearms cased untill needed. The two pistol Roy Rogers gun belt is pure HOLLYWOOD. The showdowns, bushwacks, and shootouts also. Anyone ever notice the natives always circled to the left when attacking the wagon train?

Another thing I learned about OC. Walk into a store, a resturant, a home, where is the first place they look at you? In your eyes? No, the gun. Most banks these days have no armed guards. You are standing in line, open carry, with your $2,000 Wilson, and a robbery goes down. Who in line is going to get most of the bad guys unwelcomed attention? You might lose your life, but for sure you will lose your Wilson.

IMO, OC should be used with care.

Kleanbore
March 23, 2012, 10:58 AM
Posted by TITAN308: ... I'd like to say the biggest urban myth for us OCers is we are "targeted first in a crime because you clearly have a gun".

When you ask someone who says this to provide a resource for said argument, well - they never can.Just over four years ago, a man with a .44 Magnum revolver decided to murder as many people he could in a gun-free building. He had no expectation of surviving.

His first victim was outside and walking away wen the criminal arrived. He was open carrying a .40 SW caliber pistol. The murderer shot the man in the back, took the pistol, and went inside.

His second victim was also open carrying.

The motive in shooting the first was clearly to obtain the pistol. The motive for shooting the second was to eliminate armed resistance. The only "armed" resistance that occurred before police officers entered the building from the station next door and killed the murderer involved the city attorney throwing chairs at the murderer.

Yes, these open carriers were uniformed policemen. That made them a lot more "visible". Other than that, there is no practical difference between the open carrier who is noticed in such a situation and a uniformed officer. The shooter had nothing against police officers. He got along well with both of his first victims. He would have had precisely the same motives for shooting anyone he knew to be armed.

A little common sense indicates that (1) a potential criminal will generally select a victim that he considers to be unarmed if he has the choice, but that (2) if he has already started an armed criminal action and notices an armed citizen entering or already present, he is likely to try to shoot the armed citizen for reasons of self preservation.

It is also likely that if the criminal happens to believe that he can get by with it without risk, he may take the firearm from the armed citizen just ofr the raking, and indicated in this recent incident: the open carrier in this incident (http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/4/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/) that occurred just under four months ago was shot after his own firearm had been taken.

Open carry can certainly deter; it can under some circumstances cause a criminal to shoot the open carrier first because he has no choice; and it can bring about a gun grab under the "right" circumstances.

I would like to be able to carry openly, but I would not like to stand in line in some establishments with a firearm visible in a holster of any type. Were open carry a lawful option for me, I would dress so that I could cover the firearm at my discretion.

porchdog
March 23, 2012, 11:13 AM
I dont normally open carry but as a resident of Kentucky open carry is an option and always has been to my knowledge. I see people from time to time carrying open and have never seen anyone pay any attention to the fact. Its nice to know that it is an option even if most dont chose to do so.

Mainsail
March 23, 2012, 11:18 AM
A little common sense indicates that...

a. Anything is possible
b. It's foolish to the point of stupid to prepare for outliers and unique situations at the expense of the far more common
c. Regardless of your method of carry, situational awareness is as important as being armed
d. Cops get shot, concealed carriers get shot, open carriers get shot, unarmed people get shot, historically with equal distribution. Blaming a gun for crime is reflective of people who don't believe in private firearms ownership.
e. All of the above.

TITAN308
March 23, 2012, 11:41 AM
People who think wearing a gun will keep themselves safe are fooling themselves, and trying to fool others. IMHO. In metro areas, it brings down upon the most unwanted attention from many sources.

This makes no sense. Having no gun makes us just as safe as having a gun?

Maybe people who OC like the attention? Maybe they like frightening old maids, and liberals? I don't want to frighten anyone.

And heres where the credibility starts going down the drain. This comment shows you have no interest in educating yourself and have already formed a bias negative opinion. You fail at debate 101.

The whole idea of CCW is to hide in plain site. Snake in the pocket. Why would anyone want to be the turd in the punchbowl?

More ramblings of someone who dislikes OC.

Even in the old west OC was not that common.

Fail. It was actually considered negative to hide your weapons. A gentlemen did not need to conceal his tools.

Another thing I learned about OC. Walk into a store, a resturant, a home, where is the first place they look at you? In your eyes? No, the gun. Most banks these days have no armed guards. You are standing in line, open carry, with your $2,000 Wilson, and a robbery goes down. Who in line is going to get most of the bad guys unwelcomed attention? You might lose your life, but for sure you will lose your Wilson.

URL? News Story? Please provide. Oh wait - you can't. These incidents happen so rare I don't even think they qualify as 0.01%

More bias ramblings by some yahoo who doesn't like something because its different.

IMO, OC should be used with care.

A gun should be handled with care period, the method of carrying it is irrelevant. :barf:

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 23, 2012, 12:02 PM
Maybe people who OC like the attention? Maybe they like frightening old maids, and liberals? I don't want to frighten anyone.
And heres where the credibility starts going down the drain. This comment shows you have no interest in educating yourself and have already formed a bias negative opinion. You fail at debate 101.

I agree. The moment you start presupposing someone else's motivations or thought process, you're essentially admitting you've lost the argument. Debate open carry on the factual merits, not on whether you think OCers are trying to be tough-guys.

TITAN308
March 23, 2012, 12:17 PM
Which is sort of ironic in itself right?

Someone talking like a tough guy to people he is accusing of being tough guys.

lol

Kleanbore
March 23, 2012, 01:21 PM
Posted by TITAN308: [(in response to "You are standing in line, open carry, with your $2,000 Wilson, and a robbery goes down. Who in line is going to get most of the bad guys unwelcomed attention? You might lose your life, but for sure you will lose your Wilson)] URL? News Story? Please provide. Oh wait - you can't.

These incidents happen so rare I don't even think they qualify as 0.01%Yes, armed robberies occur very rarely indeed. Armed robberies witnessed by armed citizens occur even more rarely. Armed robberies in which there are open carriers occur much more rarely still (and may in fact be deterred by the presence of the open carrier, or they may not, depending upon how the circumstances develop).

Unfortunately, one cannot conclude anything useful from that. When the conditions that may or may not lead to a particular outcome or set of outcomes occur very rarely, it is necessary to base one's assessment of the most likely outcome on something other that actual statistics.

People face that issue in all kinds of situations.

This is one of them.

I should think it a complete no-brainer to conclude that, if one is standing in line with a pistol on one's belt and armed robbers who enter unseen happen to notice the weapon, it is highly likely that the bearer will be shot, or his pistol taken, or both.

Of course, it is by no means a certainty. There are other possible outcomes.

I would not want to bet my life on any of them.

I can only imagine tow things more uncomfortable than standing in line with a visible weapon on my hip while people whom I cannot see and do not trust are standing behind me*:either open carrying in an establishment when an armed robbery occurs, or inadvertently walking in on one that is already in progress while open carrying. It would be frightening enough to be carrying concealed.**

*My bank would not be one of those places, but a quick-shop would, and there's a WalMart nearby that I go into only when there is something I need right away that I cannot get elsewhere; when I go there, my head is on a swivel, and I add a Blackthorn to my usual equipage of a Pepperblaster and concealed firearm.

**I've almost had the latter happen. Not long ago, I noticed clear signs that a robbery was about to occur in a local grocery store. Before anything actuall happened, I took out a cell phone so that the getaway driver, who was in hand signal contact with the man in the store, could see me with it by the window. They aborted the mission. I was so rattled that I could not give a description of either person or the car. By the way, I do believe that had I been open carrying, the same result would have occurred. The problem is that people around here are so paranoid that I would hae been asked to leave to avoid scaring away all the customers.

old4x4
March 23, 2012, 01:27 PM
OC just makes the sheeple jump up and down. I don't want to deal with that kind of crap.
In my opinion, it also makes you target #1 in that "you're in a convenience store and its gonna be robbed" scenario.

TITAN308
March 23, 2012, 01:36 PM
OC just makes the sheeple jump up and down. I don't want to deal with that kind of crap.

And I can just as easily tell you the countless stories of educating otherwise ignorant people because I was OCing. Guess it comes down to personality.

In my opinion, it also makes you target #1 in that "you're in a convenience store and its gonna be robbed" scenario.

Quote? Link? News article? Resource please.

I hear far more about shady people turning around and leaving a place after seeing an OC weapon than I've heard the other end of the spectrum, which is about zero times.

Its funny how a lot of gun toters think all non-gun toters are ignorant, but the amount of ignorance in the gun community is just as bad.

...uncomfortable than standing in line with a visible weapon on my hip while people whom I cannot see and do not trust are standing behind me...

Try wearing something better quality than an uncle mike's nylon holster if you are so paranoid about weapon retention. Also your lack of situational awareness is the problem, not the gun. Lots of OC's are trained to hold their elbow against the firearm when standing in things such as lines.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2012, 01:38 PM
In my opinion, it also makes you target #1 in that "you're in a convenience store and its gonna be robbed" scenario.

In my opinion it won't.

I wonder how long the moderators are going to let this

http://www.family-vacation-getaways-at-los-angeles-theme-parks.com/images/00SmileyTeeter.gif

keep going on and on.

gk2410
March 23, 2012, 01:47 PM
Don't think you presence is going to automatically stop something. To those of you who think that open carry will dissuade the felon, I'd like you to talk to the widow of one of our officers who was carrying in a bank. The suspect saw him, walked out of the teller line and up behind him, and put one into his head, then initiated his robbery of the bank.

If a suspects already committed to an armed felony that will see him spend the next ten years locked up, why not just use you as the starting point? He’ll probably get a better gun out of it anyhow…

forestdavegump
March 23, 2012, 01:49 PM
Open carry.....yeah it shows your armed. It can or could deter the idiot, crook, criminal, as they are usually, cowards and won't confront or if they do, when you stand up for your self and call their bluff they back down. (bullies from school that never grew out of it?) For crackheads (Zombies) or etc, I like carrying concealed. Open carry keeps the honest man honest and concealed keeps the crackheads guessing WTH is really going on , as if they need help with that...LMAO
Also if man was not supposed to open carry, God would have made him with a pouch like a kangaroo to carried concealed. Historically man has always carried some sort of weapon foe self defense......and we need to now more then ever....some little boys see dead people, I on the other hand see idiots and they are every where.....you do too, you know who their are....don't be shy.

forestdavegump
March 23, 2012, 02:14 PM
Don't think you presence is going to automatically stop something. To those of you who think that open carry will dissuade the felon, I'd like you to talk to the widow of one of our officers who was carrying in a bank. The suspect saw him, walked out of the teller line and up behind him, and put one into his head, then initiated his robbery of the bank. If a suspects already committed to an armed felony that will see him spend the next ten years locked up, why not just use you as the starting point? He’ll probably get a better gun out of it anyhow….Yes this is a possibility. This it is unfortunate for sure. As a "cop" we need to beware, and realize this can happen, we are targets! Also we are trained. Your never in the "white" (Always yellow or higher!) In this day and age you need your head on a swivel and not let your guard down. You can do this with out supporting all the new "Gestapo" ideals and ideas, as our job is or was "TO PROTECT AND SERVE". More educated and law abiding citizens would step up, "IF" we would empower them and let them, EDUCATION? We as a society need to get our heads out of our.... and work with each other. Where was his partner or his back up or??? Where is a cop when you need one?
This is a situation just like when the planes were over run with box cutters as the good guys were unarmed. Still boggles my mind today, as I would not stand down for a box cutter? (I always though bank tellers should be MEN, big scary ones, and have guns! Bank robbery problem solved?) If WE have weapons, WE the good men and women can fight back. Stupid people will always act that way, we should expect nothing different.:banghead: Just like the scorpion and the frog!

Sad story, sorry to hear that. Sorry for your loss :( Our loss. Sad when a brother in blue is lost in the line of duty!

Kleanbore
March 23, 2012, 02:22 PM
Posted by TITAN308: I hear far more about shady people turning around and leaving a place after seeing an OC weapon than I've heard the other end of the spectrum, which is about zero times.Since the conditions that may lead to either happen so rarely, and since what you have heard about is only a small subset of what has actually happened over the years, a wise person will base his assessment on something else.

Such as thinking it through...

Either outcome can happen.

If a robber sees and armed citizen in an establishment before initiating action, he may choose to delay the plan or go elsewhere. Or he may not. One cannot know. Most reasonable persons would abort the robbery, but violent criminals do not often fall into that category.

If the robbery has already been initiated or cannot be aborted, an armed citizen who is noticed by the robber or by his tail gunner is obviously in grave danger. Don't ask me for a link. It's basic common sense. Talk to a senior police officer or two or three. I have.

These situations happen very, very rarely, but when they do happen, there will be one outcome or another. One cannot ignore conditional probabilities simply because the conditions that lead to one outcome or another rarely happen.

In my working life, statements such as "I've never heard of..." and "no one will ever..." used to be jokingly referred to as "famous last words", second in popularity only to "I'll be able to explain..." and "no jury will....".

TITAN308
March 23, 2012, 02:38 PM
Neither method of carry is superior than the other.

CC say being hidden gives them an advantage. OC says they can draw quicker. Blah blah blah the list goes on and on.

General Statement: Having an opinion is one thing, being willfully ignorant is something completely different.

With that said, not much more to say - so I'll step out of this thread.

Kleanbore
March 23, 2012, 02:45 PM
Posted by TITAN308: [(In response to "..uncomfortable than standing in line with a visible weapon on my hip while people whom I cannot see and do not trust are standing behind me...")]Try wearing something better quality than an uncle mike's nylon holster if you are so paranoid about weapon retention. Also your lack of situational awareness is the problem, not the gun. Lots of OC's are trained to hold their elbow against the firearm when standing in things such as lines.I think it is irresponsible to characterize concern about weapons retention as paranoia, unrealistic to believe that the utility of "situational awareness" is not very much impaired while standing in a qeue, and naive to believe that holding one's elbow against a firearm is an effective defense against a rabbit punch, a blow to the head, the stab of a knife, or worse.

If you want to delude yourself into believing that a good holster and some weapons retention training, though so very important, will make you safe in a bad place (I refer to a line in certain places) while you display for all to see a very desirable piece of useful and tradable hardware, be my guest.

Being attacked for the weapon is a major concern among police officers I know, even though they have other devices with which to handle an attacker, they are very well trained, and if it comes to that , they carry back-up guns. And maybe, just maybe, most perps are at least vaguely aware that an attack on an officer will put all of the officers in a fifty mile radius on their tails.

Neither method of carry is superior than the other.The advantages of one over the other will depend upon circumstances, which vary.

ThomasR
March 23, 2012, 03:58 PM
hhhhhh

ThomasR
March 23, 2012, 04:08 PM
Hello everyone, I've tryed posting a couple of times let's see if this works.
Ultimately this debate really shows more how far we've fallen as to the belief that the citizens are the first line of defense in our freedoms

Sixty years ago this wouldn't be a debate, only criminals carried concealed, the only honorable way to carry aweapon was in the open as a public statement to ones committment to protecting ones community.

Now after carrying in the open for two years, inspite of the judgement I knew would come from most people, even the gun community, I've come to really understand the warning our Founding Fathers gave us.

They said that when the general acceptance that the citizens were the first line of defense against tyranny, whether from a criminal in the street or the criminal in government, fell into dis-repute, we were one step from tyranny.

Sorry guys, but I believe we are the people they warned about.

ThomasR
March 23, 2012, 05:30 PM
Yep, Johnny Dollar, I can't remeber who, but one of the founding fathers said that all republics end not by invasion, but by suicide.

ThomasR
March 23, 2012, 05:53 PM
Google is our friend, John Adams was talking about how a republic is superior to a democracy "There has never been a democracy yet, that has not committed suicide"
Gives one a real warm glow when one hears our liberal/ progressive elite speaking about our "great democracy".

Mainsail
March 23, 2012, 06:19 PM
OC just makes the sheeple jump up and down. I don't want to deal with that kind of crap.
In my opinion, it also makes you target #1 in that "you're in a convenience store and its gonna be robbed" scenario.

Have you witnessed this jumping yourself, or projecting your own nervousness around firearms? If the flaming liberals in downtown Seattle don't, I'm going to say my actual experience trumps your supposition.

You're making the mistake several people in here are making, that it's either but not both. If I am carrying openly and for some reason I need to enter a convenience store (something I seldom do) I can conceal the firearm while I'm inside.

You see, I'm pro-gun. I don't care how anyone else chooses to carry, just that they should. There's a HUGE difference between being pro-gun and being pro-mywayorit'swrong. That's where the term Fud started.

Kleanbore
March 23, 2012, 07:05 PM
Posted by ThomasR: Ultimately this debate really shows more how far we've fallen as to the belief that the citizens are the first line of defense in our freedoms

Sixty years ago this wouldn't be a debate, only criminals carried concealed, the only honorable way to carry a weapon was in the open...I'm afraid you're a little off RE: timing.

Sixty years ago, I spent a lot of time reading gun books and gun magazines. The number of states that effectively prohibited the carrying of handguns, openly or concealed was large and bothersome to me as a child, and there were restrictions in counties and cities, on top of that.

Some time after the Civil War, most of the southern and border states outlawed the carrying of handguns and/or in some cases, having handguns in automobiles. Texas was among the early ones; Georgia followed suit before WWI. Missouri imposed a permit-to-purchase requirement in 1917, and I believe the carry restrictions (concealed and automobile) went in about the same time. The infamous Sullivan Act was enacted in NYS at around the same time.

In some cases permits could be obtained, but there were no shall issue provisions. In Texas, the only way to carry openly was to be named some kind of special honorary Texas Ranger. Sufficient contributions to the winning gubernatorial candidate were helpful.

It is also not accurate to say that only criminals carried concealed. Colt, H&A, H&R, Iver Johnson, Savage, and Smith and Wesson sold thousands of small revolvers and pocket semi-automatics to professional men, bankers, and so on, some for the drawer, and many for carry. Before open carry was prohibited in many of hose places, concealed carry was often been lawful, depending upon the jurisdiction. I had grandparents who preferred to carry concealed before it was prohibited, and so did my wife. I believe that permits may have been required.

By the way, the laws and the books and the articles referred to handguns as "pistols" in those days, as did Col. Colt and the dictionary.

Many of the western states remained exceptions, and open carry remained lawful, though municipal prohibition was not uncommon.

...as a public statement to ones committment to protecting ones community. I really don't think that there is any basis for believing that carrying openly, when it was legal, was done to promote the protection of the community, much less to make any kind of public statement to that effect.

Elmer Keith did say that the prevalence of open carry in and around Salmon, Idaho made the place a safer place to live, and I've always believed that.

The idea of carrying a Model P or a top-break S&W .44 on one's belt is embroidered into the fabric of most western fiction, written and on screen, but it really wasn't all that common. Those things are heavy and cumbersome, and carrying them is not helpful to people doing a long day's work. Photographs that my uncle, a cowboy in New Mexico during the early part of the twentieth century, brought back portrayed no one carrying side-arms. I argued that the pictures were unrealistic, and he and my aunt just laughed at me with my two-gun Hopalong Cassidy outfit.

Back around that time (a century ago), the .32 S&W was by far the most popular handgun chambering in America. I imagine that most of them were kept at home or carried concealed or both, but I ave no way of knowing.

We have made remarkable progress in most places in re-securing the right of lawful carry. Yes, in most places so far, it has been limited to concealed carry; and it has been very long in coming.

I first saw open carriers in the backwoods of Missouri sixty years ago. Five years later, I saw a groundskeeper on a Ford Tractor with a Smith and Wesson .22-32 Kit Gun in a belt holster in western Missouri. Five years later, I saw men open carrying on motorcycles and in restaurants in Colorado. My reaction was far from "what an idiot". It looked perfectly normal to me.

But I've been a gun guy since i first saw Gene Autry and Roy Rogers with their engraved model P single actions. There are only three people on my street today who were born before JFK became President, and since 1963 the schools and media have done everything possible, most of it dishonest, to condition people to fear guns.

We are lucky we have brought the pendulum back as far as we have.

Jaymo
March 23, 2012, 08:00 PM
I just wish CC was as easy/comfortable/convenient as OC. CC requires more planning and prep.
I only OC at the range and when I'm hunting.

Sauer Grapes
March 23, 2012, 08:38 PM
In my opinion it won't.

I wonder how long the moderators are going to let this

http://www.family-vacation-getaways-at-los-angeles-theme-parks.com/images/00SmileyTeeter.gif

keep going on and on.
LOL, I can't read anymore! I didn't have a headache when I started, but I do now.

Both means of carry have their advantages and disadvantages. If your response in this thread was, "OC is not something I feel comfortable doing, but I respect your right to carry whichever way you feel is right for you".
YOU PASSED!!

Spirited discussions about tactics are welcome IMO. Being a sarcastic JERK, doesn't do much for furthering the rights of ALL gun owners to own and carry the way they see fit.
Some of you have a lousy attitude, seems it's either YOUR way or the highway.

You'll have to excuse me, I need to go shine my gun up tomorrow. I want to look my best while OCing.

sgtstryker
March 23, 2012, 09:17 PM
Boy, what a topic. Always generates lively discussion, on any forum. Personally I CC, alot of folks in Ga. like OC, I have no problem with them exercising this right. More power to all who do. There are gun shops in Ga. that prohibit any carry inside, go figure. When my wife and I are out, especially with her family, they have no idea I'm carrying. So, carry on, no matter how.

ThomasR
March 23, 2012, 09:28 PM
Some good points Kleanbore, we have made some good progress over the last twenty years, however, I would suggest not to lose sight of the bigger picture by counting the trees, so to speak.

What I'm talking about is what builds republics, and then what destroys them.
Our founding fathers very much knew and wrote very eloquently what that was, A belief in a higher power, in personal responsibility and the committment to be a citizen soldier to protect your people from human predators.
That is what the second amendment is all about, what destroys them is when people no longer want to take that responsibility and want the government to protect them, simplistic,, but also true.

So we go from a time when the general acceptance that most adult men were ready to be warriors for thier people to today, how many people today accept and are able to effectively defend themselves let alone thier community?

This was expressed in the past by the acceptance of the carrying of weapons openly, as one example, California didn't outlaw the open carrying of a loaded weapon until the 1960's. California, pretty weird.

ultimately, Kleanbore, one of the ways to change peoples idea that open carry is was and still is a legitimate expression of the right to keep and bear arms is to open carry arms.

Until the gun community accepts and supports this right how can we expect the uninitiated to accept it.?

demerp
March 24, 2012, 04:21 AM
Yep, Johnny Dollar, I can't remeber who, but one of the founding fathers said that all republics end not by invasion, but by suicide.
"How then shall we perform it? At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth... could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years....If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
--a young Abraham Lincoln (age 28), in 1838

demerp
March 24, 2012, 04:42 AM
It does happen.

...the clerk should have been armed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmF0GJuHz9I


...luckily his buddy was.:evil:


wow. that is a great video!

jahwarrior
March 24, 2012, 07:56 AM
I did armed security. Always kept a jacket in the car. When not on duty, I put jacket over my "shoot me shirt". It covered up most of the SAM Browne and duty weapon. If one looked, they could tell I was semi, sorta, kinda, sometimes, official non LEO.

The uniform, fake badge, cuffs, belt, and weapon did what is was supposed to. Along with the military bearing look, it got the job done. All a big bluff.

It did impress the kids, and uniform loving women.

I have seen some of the OC folks. They looked really strange. It shouldn't be allowed. IMHO.
If you want to oc, and its legal, well have a great time. But please do it when I am not around, so I wont openly laugh at you.

BTW, I usually CCW. Gotta snake in my pocket, just in case. NOBODY KNOWS.

just saying,,,,,,,,
Are you sure you're on the right forum? "It shouldn't be allowed"? I think you were looking for the Brady Campaign website, and took a wrong turn at Albequerque.

ThomasR
March 24, 2012, 08:38 AM
Yeah Jahwarrior, what I find interesting is that the CC people use the same putdowns towards OC people as the anti-gun people use towards all of us gun people.

The Anti-gun people will say how we are carrying a gun out of need to be tough guy or compensate for a small package, I think most of us would agree that they are in a state of transference, they are compensating for thier own feeling of helplessness and powerlessness, but then alot of the CC people will say the same about OC people, that we are trying to be a tough guy or compensating for a small package.

Why is that? Out of fear, perhaps of looking different than the crowd?

Do some people carry a gun, OC or CC out of a feeling of inadequacy, perhaps, but I beleive the majority do so out of knowing the world is a dangerous place, they are simply being mature and responsible.

For me, I OC because it's a traditional American right, no one else in the world has this right and those who don't practice thier rights, will simply lose them.

doubleh
March 24, 2012, 10:56 AM
All I can say is: Be glad you can carry whether it is OC, CC, or both. If you have the choice to do either, choose whichever you prefer and enjoy the right to do so.. It's much better than not being able to carry at all.

No matter how much you butt heads and argue the chances of changing someone's mind is almost nil. Kind of like pro and anti gun people arguing isn't it?

ThomasR
March 24, 2012, 11:55 AM
Yeah, it truly is bizarre, on a web site dedicated to gun issues no less.

twofifty
March 24, 2012, 12:08 PM
Bizarre but fascinating.

It does illustrate the mental paralysis that I associate with the anti's position.
They are blind to a self-evident truth, blind to the numbers, blind to civil rights.

Betcha the antis think we're a stunned bunch of blind idiots.

Elkins45
March 24, 2012, 12:25 PM
Open carry is legal in my state but I choose not to practice it. Invisibility is often your friend. I would rather take my chances with someone who thinks I'm unarmed than someone who knows I am not and therefore MUST take me out without warning. I think OC just might turn what could have been an armed robbery into a murder/robbery.

I'm with OC like Bill Clinton was about abortion: it should be safe, legal and rare.

ThomasR
March 24, 2012, 02:42 PM
No question twofifty, before a guy tryed to mug me, I looked at the idea of carrying a gun for self-defense as just plain crazy, it took almost getting killed to wake me up to the "obviousness of the truth". "A conservative is liberal who was mugged"

44Brent
March 24, 2012, 03:45 PM
I'm with OC like Bill Clinton was about abortion: it should be safe, legal and rare.

OC is like abortion? Oh really? Why don't you try this argument out for size?

"People who open carry are like black people that try to scare the public by refusing to wear white paint on their faces"

This is the type of arguments into which anti-OCers devolve. The arguments against OC are nothing more than ill-informed bigotry.

Kleanbore
March 24, 2012, 03:55 PM
Posted by 44Brent: The arguments against OC are nothing more than ill-informed bigotry.Negative reactions to the sight of people carrying openly may be rightly characterized as "uninformed bigotry", but I'm sure there is a more descriptive term (GEM, any suggestions from the world of psychology?).

However, there are a number of well-reasoned, objective arguments against OC for some circumstances, just as there are good arguments for it for others.

ThomasR
March 24, 2012, 05:19 PM
When you speak about OC versus CC in those terms Kleanbore, you come across as even handed and fair, But when anti-gun and anti-CC people devolve to demeaning and insulting statements like how it's away to be a tough guy or to compensate for a small package, then I would think Freuds quote applies for them "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

theicemanmpls
March 24, 2012, 06:05 PM
Jwarrior,
OC all you want fella.

Just because I have a strong anti OC opinion no reason for name callin, or finger pointin.

Let me say this, men who cross dress in womens clothing often argue rabidly for it's main stream acceptance.

After many years, in certain places, mostly urban settings, it is now semi acceptable. Slowly, but surely. Same with OC.

In most urban parts of the country, OC is not the social norm. It may take years to get there. Shoving it down the throats of soccer moms is only going to back fire. Look what happened in **********.

Know what I mean?

Think about it.

44Brent
March 24, 2012, 06:12 PM
Shoving it down the throats of soccer moms is only going to back fire. Look what happened in **********.

People who OCed in California (unloaded, by the way) did so because that was their only option. Concealed carry was prohibited except for a few fortunate few who managed to have the favor of their local sheriff.

Lawsuits to force sheriffs to issue licenses were continually tossed out of court on the basis that people had the option to OC. The arguments used to toss the lawsuits against sheriffs are no longer valid due to the over-reaction of the legislature and Jerry Brown. See the article titled:

"Does Closing the Door on Open Carry Mean More Concealed Weapons? "

Excerpt:

We’ve all heard the saying, “when one door closes, another door opens.” Well, this is the attitude some Californians (myself included) have taken toward AB 144, California’s open-carry handgun ban for unloaded firearms (it was already illegal to carry a loaded handgun) that was signed into law a few weeks ago by Gov. Jerry Brown and will go into effect Jan 1.

What we are hoping for, and what was illustrated in yesterday’s article, “Hope in Fresno: Police Chief and City Councilman Want More People Carrying Concealed” is that this new open carry ban will force state and local lawmakers to reconsider the strict conditions that need to be satisfied for one to obtain a CCW permit.

Full article available at http://www.guns.com/does-closing-the-door-on-open-carry-mean-more-concealed-weapons.html

Mainsail
March 24, 2012, 06:32 PM
...After many years, in certain places, mostly urban settings, it is now semi acceptable. Slowly, but surely. Same with OC.

In most urban parts of the country, OC is not the social norm. It may take years to get there. Shoving it down the throats of soccer moms is only going to back fire. Look what happened in **********.

Know what I mean?

Think about it.

You're forgetting or ignoring the plain fact that some of us open carry and have actual experience. There isn't a more urban area than Seattle or Tacoma and open carry IS acceptable. Have you ever been to Seattle? You couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a militant liberal.

Your argument further breaks down when you use the phrase "shoving it down the throats of soccer moms". We didn't shove anything; we wore our sidearms like it was no big deal, went about our daily business, and were polite and friendly to all. In the end all gun owners benefited from the positive image we displayed. While most of the antis in here were talking about gun rights, we were actually doing something.

So you have talk and supposition, we have actual boots on the ground experience. Which argument holds more water?

Elkins45
March 24, 2012, 06:46 PM
44Brent:

If you are going to respond to my post then please do me the courtesy of understanding it first. My clearly stated comparison was the similarity of my opinion of OC to Clinnton's opinion of abortion. I compared opinion to opinion, and at no point did I compare OC to abortion.

Your mischaracterization of my remarks indicate you either did not closely read what I had written, or that you intentionally misquoted me because you thought it would strengthen your opinion somehow.

ctaylor
March 24, 2012, 07:05 PM
I believe in the right to keep and bear arms, I have a concealed carry permit and I sometimes, but not always, carry. I'm in favor of both concealed and open carry. I don't condemn anyone for their choice in the matter, so long as their intent is to defend themselves and their family. I am a retired, conservative, former Marine from a southern conservative state. I am pre-disposed to firearm ownership and the right of an individual to self protection and the defense of his or her family and home.

Having said that, I don't trust most citizens to back out of a parking space without hurting someone. I don't feel safer around armed citizens I don't know. I don't want anyone to go armed with even the smallest intention of defending me who has not been hired and trained to do so.

My personal experience (I am not in any way attempting to speak generally) has not been positive regarding people I have encountered who have elected to display their arms. That doesn't mean I believe everyone who carries openly is a danger to the public or is necessarily creating a situation in which "the right to bear arms" is put in a negative light. But I believe that some are (a danger) and do (create a negative impression with the non-gun-toting public).

I won't openly carry. If you do, I hope that are polite, responsible, friendly, well-trained and that your weapon is as secure as possible.

jahwarrior
March 25, 2012, 02:00 PM
Jwarrior,
OC all you want fella.

Just because I have a strong anti OC opinion no reason for name callin, or finger pointin.

Let me say this, men who cross dress in womens clothing often argue rabidly for it's main stream acceptance.

After many years, in certain places, mostly urban settings, it is now semi acceptable. Slowly, but surely. Same with OC.

In most urban parts of the country, OC is not the social norm. It may take years to get there. Shoving it down the throats of soccer moms is only going to back fire. Look what happened in **********.

Know what I mean?

Think about it.
If I'd called you a name, I'm pretty sure I would have gotten a ban for it. I'm still here. I'm not pointing a finger, either, merely stating the truth. Wanting to have open carry banned is just as asinine and stupid as wanting to have concealed carry banned. Yeah, look what happened in CA; now, nobody can carry, unless they can get a permit to carry concealed, which is rare.

Yeah, people aren't used to it. Too bad for them, they can get over it, and get over themselves. Minorities weren't allowed to share water fountains with whites, either, or ride in the front of the bus. By your rationale, we'd still be riding in the back, and would still be second class citizens. I suppose I shouldn't be walking around my neighborhood with my girlfriend, since she's white, and I'm not, and I'll probably offend the whitefolks around here, many of whom have already expressed their distaste for having "one of them people" living in their neighborhood.

Yes, anti-open carry is much like racism, or homophobia. You don't like gay sex? Don't have it. You don't like open carry? Don't do it. But when people who are supposed to be on our side are calling for a ban on open carry, people like you, well, then you're part of the problem.

You don't really support Second Amendment rights, in reality. You only support the privilege to carry concealed. And yes, it's a privilege, because in most states, you have to have a permit to do it. That means you have to have the government's permission to do it. When you need permission, it's no longer a right. Concealed carry is a privilege, open carry is a right. Learn the difference, learn what it means to respect our rights, and learn to read better.

brickeyee
March 25, 2012, 02:58 PM
A neo-conservative is liberal who was mugged

Corrected it for you.

theicemanmpls
March 25, 2012, 08:18 PM
If I'd called you a name, I'm pretty sure I would have gotten a ban for it. I'm still here. I'm not pointing a finger, either, merely stating the truth. Wanting to have open carry banned is just as asinine and stupid as wanting to have concealed carry banned. Yeah, look what happened in CA; now, nobody can carry, unless they can get a permit to carry concealed, which is rare.

Yeah, people aren't used to it. Too bad for them, they can get over it, and get over themselves. Minorities weren't allowed to share water fountains with whites, either, or ride in the front of the bus. By your rationale, we'd still be riding in the back, and would still be second class citizens. I suppose I shouldn't be walking around my neighborhood with my girlfriend, since she's white, and I'm not, and I'll probably offend the whitefolks around here, many of whom have already expressed their distaste for having "one of them people" living in their neighborhood.

Yes, anti-open carry is much like racism, or homophobia. You don't like gay sex? Don't have it. You don't like open carry? Don't do it. But when people who are supposed to be on our side are calling for a ban on open carry, people like you, well, then you're part of the problem.

You don't really support Second Amendment rights, in reality. You only support the privilege to carry concealed. And yes, it's a privilege, because in most states, you have to have a permit to do it. That means you have to have the government's permission to do it. When you need permission, it's no longer a right. Concealed carry is a privilege, open carry is a right. Learn the difference, learn what it means to respect our rights, and learn to read better.
I thought THR was colorless, odorless, and never taste-less.

Thank you for telling everyone you are African American. Why is that important that we know this?

What does race have to do with OC or CCW? Since you brought the race card up, hows this?

The story of racial equality in America did not happen over night. The struggle continues.

The public acceptance of OC is not going to happen over night either.

You may think people are staring at you because you are a stranger in the neighborhood. WRONG. Perhaps they are staring at the gun on your hip?

Do you OC because you are in a inter racial relationship? Think it will frighten the ignorant who object to your personal business?

Last, please don't judge me regarding my support of the second amendment. Where do you get that idea?

You say I am this, and I am that. Think what you want.

I do not like the idea of OC in urban areas. IMOH, it is bad for the cause. In rural areas where it is accepted, I would probably OC also.

IMO, OC must be done in a way not to alarm, intimidate, anger, or frighten people.

BTW, I am a disabled veteran, and a long time member of the NRA. I teach kids firearms safety and do public service work for my club.

So, because I don't agree with you, you insinuate I may be a trader to the cause?

Wrong.

hogshead
March 25, 2012, 09:23 PM
Man did this post go on forever or what. I had to go back to the first post and read it to remember what started this whole bickering match. Talk about thread veer. We ran this one off the road and down through the woods about 5 miles. OC cc what difference does it make just be glad we can carry.

Stevie-Ray
March 26, 2012, 06:39 PM
You only support the privilege to carry concealed. And yes, it's a privilege, because in most states, you have to have a permit to do it. That means you have to have the government's permission to do it. When you need permission, it's no longer a right. Concealed carry is a privilege, open carry is a right.I am a most time concealed carrier, sometime open carrier, but I must say that is very well stated. Bravo.

AK103K
March 26, 2012, 06:59 PM
Concealed carry is a privilege, open carry is a right.
Its not a right everywhere.

And for the most part, whether we like it or not, pretty much everything these days is a privilege. The whole "land of the free..." thing, is just an illusion.

If we were free, most of what we discuss "rules" wise, would have no need of a discussion.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 26, 2012, 10:33 PM
Concealed carry is a privilege, open carry is a right.

Under the constitution, both should be a right.

JackCrow
March 26, 2012, 10:51 PM
And in some states they are.

gamestalker
March 27, 2012, 04:03 PM
I have carried open for about 45 yrs., and although I do carry concealed from time to time, my primary is OC. But I live in Az. where OC has been legal probably since the beginning of time. If I go to my local wally world right now I know I'll see at least 1 or 2 people OC-ing. And in consideration of how many I see doing OC, there are probably 10 more CC-ing, especially since a CWP is no longer required in our state.

jahwarrior
March 27, 2012, 05:05 PM
Thank you for telling everyone you are African American. Why is that important that we know this?

I never said I was African American, did I? And it's not important, if I were.

What does race have to do with OC or CCW? Since you brought the race card up, hows this?

I guess the concept of analogy is foreign to you, or you're simply incapable of abstract thought.

The story of racial equality in America did not happen over night. The struggle continues.

The public acceptance of OC is not going to happen over night either.

Exactly, because of people like you.

You may think people are staring at you because you are a stranger in the neighborhood. WRONG. Perhaps they are staring at the gun on your hip?

Since you don't live here, you have no idea why people in my neighborhood don't want me around. Sicen I've been a minority longer than I've been carrying a gun, I'm pretty sure that I recognize ethnic bias when I'm greeted with it. But go ahead and keep assuming things.

Do you OC because you are in a inter racial relationship? Think it will frighten the ignorant who object to your personal business?

I open carry because I want to. I don't do it to frighten anyone except thos e that would do me harm otherwise. This is the problem with people like you. You think we do it to intimidate others.

Last, please don't judge me regarding my support of the second amendment. Where do you get that idea?

I got the idea from your asinine statements.

You say I am this, and I am that. Think what you want.

I do not like the idea of OC in urban areas. IMOH, it is bad for the cause. In rural areas where it is accepted, I would probably OC also.

IMO, OC must be done in a way not to alarm, intimidate, anger, or frighten people.

BTW, I am a disabled veteran, and a long time member of the NRA. I teach kids firearms safety and do public service work for my club.

So, because I don't agree with you, you insinuate I may be a trader to the cause?

Wrong.

Sam1911
March 27, 2012, 05:34 PM
That's probably about enough, once more. Anyone who's mind was likely to be changed has enough info to chew on to make whatever decision they need to make.

I'm sure we'll argue about this all again next week.

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