queston for the police about civilian carry


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Tim37
March 19, 2012, 11:33 PM
just kinda wondering how do cops feel when they run my plate and know i have a ccw permit? do you feel more nervous about aproching my car or about the same. at the end of the day i see it as i have gone through the trouble of getting a permit i wouldnt think it would bother a cop that much but iwould like to know.

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Impureclient
March 19, 2012, 11:41 PM
Funny you should bring that up. I just got a speeding ticket, well he made it a failure to obey a traffic device ticket, and he seen my permit when I was thumbing through my wallet.
He asked if I was carrying and at that time I wasn't as I was coming from a customers house doing an estimate and I don't carry in any possible jobs in case it accidentally shows and they freak out.
I said I wasn't due to the customer thing and he said I should always be carrying. Of course he then gave me the ticket but at least that part, him chastising me for not being armed, was nice.

Buck Kramer
March 19, 2012, 11:49 PM
In Iowa there is no record of your ccw permit other than at the sheriffs office and they have to call separately for it during business hours only. The good news is that they will never know I have a permit (and I am not required by law to tell them). The down side of this is that God forbid someone forgets their permit and is stopped and the cop asks them for their permit they are held until someone else brings the permit down or until their administrative offices open the next morning at 8am.

MutinousDoug
March 20, 2012, 12:30 AM
Both ends of the spectrum for me:

Once I was stopped for speeding, coming back from a High Power match with my SUV full of stuff.
"May I see your license and registration?"
"Yes sir"
"Where are you going?"
"Home, Just up the road here"
"Where was I coming from?"
"High Power Match up in Ault, CO"
"What kind of Gun were you shooting?"
"AR Match rifle, want to see it?"
"I got a Colt H-Bar. Slow down, OK?"
To myself: "(Whoo-Hoo)"
"Yes sir"

Second: ( I don't intend to make a habit of this)
"Sir, You made an illegal left turn from the middle lane. My I see your license and registration?"
"Sir, I just dropped of my camping buddy at his home and don't really know the neighborhood"
Sees my CCP permit in my wallet:
" Sir, do you have a firearm in your possession?"
"Yes sir, In the back with my camping gear"
"Not in your immediate possession?"
"No sir, it's back there." (I'm in a Subaru station wagon)
" In future, Immediately declare your possession of a concealed firearm when confronted by a police officer"
"Is this a Colorado statute requirement?" (It is Not)
"This is what you do when confronted by a police officer."
"Yes sir." (Ooookey,Dokey)

No ticket in either case.
(Whoo, Hoo)

YMMV (since I'm just an old white guy, and you may not be)

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2012, 12:46 AM
"This is what you do when confronted by a police officer."

Funny, I've never done that when confronted by a police officer and it's never been an issue.

If a LEO gets agitated AFTER they find out about a CCW permit, there is something seriously wrong with their thinking.

Black Duck Charlie
March 20, 2012, 12:51 AM
Far as I am aware, in Minnesota there is no law that says you have to declare whether you are armed or not -- unless the cop asks you. Thought it was the same in all states.

medalguy
March 20, 2012, 02:25 AM
I admit, I have a heavy foot. I've been stopped several times for speeding since I got my permit, and every time I'm asked for my license, I hand them my CHL on top of my license. Nearly every time, the office asked if I was carrying (I was), where the weapon was, and then said to just leave it where it was. Not one time have I been ticketed. Several officers asked what kind of firearm I had, and one said everyone should carry.

Worth noting I never drive more than at most 10 over the posted limit, usually not more than 5, and it's always been on open highway.

I think a lot has to do with attitude of the driver, and the severity of the offense.

Serenity
March 20, 2012, 02:27 AM
Any LE officers care to weigh in?

armoredman
March 20, 2012, 02:34 AM
Last time I was pulled over with a CCW the officer merely asked where it was, and asked me to keep my hands on the wheel. He never asked me for the sidearm, permit nada. I still got a ticket, but the professionalism was so high I actually called their boss to commend them.
YEARS ago a buddy was driving down to Sierra Vista while we were both on leave, with a car FULL of firearms, including my shiny new UZI Model B I had up in the front seat with me. Yes, not the smartest of moves, but I was quite young. I also had not yet discovered what a jammamatic that UZI really was. Edit to add, yes, it was legal.
We got pulled over, and I had absolutely no idea what to do, so I put my hands up on my shoulders like I was scratching the back of my neck, and kept 'em there. The officer saw what we had in the car, our milspec haircuts and clothes, smiled and gave my shipmate a speeding ticket for less than he was actually going. We "whewed" and went on, at a reduced velocity.

Grmlin
March 20, 2012, 04:26 AM
I know we have some LE's around here somewhere. Typical when you need them no where to be found, (just kidding). I've unfortunatly been stopped a couple of times in the last 15 yrs. I usualy hand my conceal carry permit with my license. In N.C. your license and conceal #'s match and are in the system.
Got stopped by a state trooper my driver window doesn't work in my truck so I prop the door open. He didn't like that much, I should have waited till he got up to the door I guess to tell him. Then I hand him all my documents and he got even more adjetated. It was not a good morning. I had been in my own world was a little upset and didn't relize how fast I was going.
A year or so later I was involved in a minor accident. So minor the car infront of me wasn't evan sure I hit them. called the town police just for GP. The officer asked me to hang around after everything was taken care of. After the car pulled off he asked me why I didn't tell him I had conceal carry? I told him 1) I did not have a weapon on me at the time and 2) I hadn't seen anything that said I had to but I usualy do anyway.
I have talked to different LE's from different communities and they have all said the same thing "they aren't worried about the people with permits" and some have said "they view conceal carry holders as possible back up". Thats a whole other topic.
At traffic stops/checks they usualy ask where it is and what it is. On one occasion I had every pistol I owned in the truck my response was do you have 20 minutes or do you just want the one thats loaded and on my body. When I'm on my bike they ask if I ever have any problems with holsters. Sometimes it can be annoying with s.o.b. because I have a drivers backrest. Still trying to figure out how to carry a long gun on the bike with out causing a problem.

bigfatdave
March 20, 2012, 05:42 AM
Still trying to figure out how to carry a long gun on the bike with out causing a problem.
folding (like a sub2000 or any of the folding stock rifles out there ... my sub2000 fits a saddlebag)
take-down (like an AR7 {the henry version works} or Marlin Papoose ... both of those fit a saddlebag just fine)

Or just double wrap it, like in a soft case inside a generic rectangle case and strap it on top of a saddlebag front-to back really well

Of course, I have large sturdy saddlebags and aren't afraid to tie on with cord and make it sort of ugly

Deanimator
March 20, 2012, 06:41 AM
There are several states that require notifying the LEO if you are carrying: AK,AR,LA,MI,NE,NC,OK,OH,SC and TX.
I recently had a cop here in Ohio try to get me to notify when NOT carrying. These "courtesies" ALWAYS escalate.

We're trying to do away with notification in Ohio. Hopefully, Officer Harless has given us the push we need to do so.

Rob G
March 20, 2012, 07:46 AM
All ten of these states need to abandon this rule.

Oddly enough in Texas our rule sort of has been abandoned. What I mean is the law about notifying still stands. However the language in the law that specifies the penalty was removed. So basically it's illegal not to notify an LEO that you're carrying, but there's absolutely no penalty for not doing so.

MedWheeler
March 20, 2012, 07:57 AM
Before I was in law enforcement, I was delivering pizza for a living. I was involved in an accident when another driver ran a stop-sign and hit me from the side. As the female officer checked out my wrecked truck, she looked inside at the dash, saying she needed the odometer reading. As she did, she asked me, in a nonchalant manner, where my gun was. I told her it was in the glovebox, but never figured out how she even knew I had one. She asked if I minded if she unloaded it (it was a Taurus M66, in a holster.) I didn't, and she did. Nothing more was said. I guess it might have been common assumption in the LE community then that pizza guys pack. I did not have a carry permit then.
However, I was hired as a LEO myself for a neighboring agency several months later, and never saw a space on an accident report for odometer readings, at least, not on the state form. Maybe her town had their own.

As a cop myself, I had no problem with law-abiding civilians carrying. Didn't encounter too many back then, though. I was hired the same year Florida passed its landmark weapons-carry act.

waterhouse
March 20, 2012, 10:36 AM
I treat my vehicle approach for concealed carry notations the same (which is to say, with caution) as I do with any other stop (short of the car coming up stolen or something like that, in which case things are a little different.).

I don't usually write tickets to people with concealed carry permits, but to be honest I don't usually write tickets to people who don't have carry permits either.

Averageman
March 20, 2012, 10:39 AM
We had a fie at the house and I arrived at the same time the Police did and I slipped my M-10 snubbie in my IWB holster as I got out and went in to the house.
When I got to the back yard and observed the damage to the deck I removed my jacket to move some still smoldering wood and asess the damage.
The Police Officer who followed me to the backyard asked to see my weapon and asked if I had a CCL, I replied yes, then unloaded and handed him the weapon and he called it in to include the serial number. One of the Firemen muttered ********* under his breath and we continued to work on getting the smoldering wood doused.
Really at that point, the gun was none of his business, we all had bigger fish to fry and if he wanted to see the CCL he should have asked for it, but calling in the serial number for my pistol while my deck is burning and while he is standing on my property??
The only hing I can think of as an excuse was the safety of the fire fighters.
Second incident
I got caught in an ice storm this winter in N.M. and it added about 6 hours to a 13 hour trip. As I got in to AZ, I had about 20 miles to go and got pulled over for weaving.
I immeadiatly handed the officer my DL and CCL and he told me just dont touch my weapon.
I explained the traffic, the trip and weather to the officer and was on my way in 5 minutes.

zxcvbob
March 20, 2012, 10:48 AM
The Police Officer who followed me to the backyard asked to see my weapon and asked if I had a CCL, I replied yes, then unloaded and handed him the weapon and he called it in to include the serial number. One of the Firemen muttered ********* under his breath and we continued to work on getting the smoldering wood doused.
I would not have handed it over under those circumstances. I might have asked him to leave my property if he wasn't going to help.

Deus Machina
March 20, 2012, 10:51 AM
I've thankfully never been pulled over--I speed, but so does everyone else, the police don't really care unless it's something expensive, and my vehicles always look slow.

If I did, I would find out how they feel because I would immediately inform them--my holster is right next to the seatbelt buckle or the revolver is in the glovebox next to the registration. So I want them to know before I reach for anything.

Either way, all the officers I've ever met that have found out have either openly scoffed at me (the ones that are officers only because they get to wear a uniform behind a desk) or are wholeheartedly for it. A few deputies shook my hand and told me they respect the guys that will fill out the paperwork, fund them (they have a charge for the fingerprints), and that it means I've already had my background check.

squarles67
March 20, 2012, 11:10 AM
As already noted in Texas there is a duty to inform.

I've been pulled over several times in the years since getting my CHL. All the encounters have been very similar whether dealing with city, county or state LEO. They all ask if I'm armed and when I say yes they ask where is the weapon (the state guys will ask "without reaching point to wear the weapon is"). I've never had one ask for me to surrender the weapon, nor has anyone ever seemed particularly alarmed that I was armed. Most just say ok and go about their business. I had one city officer ask what I usually carried and we talked a bit about guns afterword.

Tim37
March 20, 2012, 11:14 AM
I treat my vehicle approach for concealed carry notations the same (which is to say, with caution) as I do with any other stop (short of the car coming up stolen or something like that, in which case things are a little different.).

I don't usually write tickets to people with concealed carry permits, but to be honest I don't usually write tickets to people who don't have carry permits either.

thanks i was kinda curious to see what is on the other side of the fence.

in arkansas from my understanding once you have a permit it will show if the tags on my car are run by le and im suposed to hand my ccl over with my licence if im carring. then ask the officer how to proceed. i really dont mind the declaring rule simply because if i was on that side of the window i would want to know.

as far as the house fire and the gun as far as im concerned the officer had no right to ask if you where on your property.

Lincoln4
March 20, 2012, 01:31 PM
Well, here in Washington, it's kinda hit and miss whether I can see if you have a CPL, just by running your plate. I appreciate your concern if you let me know when you are armed. However, it really shouldn't affect my tactics when contacting you. I'm more concerned with the guy who is carrying illegally.

Back in 1992 in the academy, they taught us to disarm anyone with a CPL, who was carrying. I haven't done that in many years.

Somewhat off topic, I strongly support the 2nd Amendment, and have found that most of the officers I work around do as well. Now if we could just get SBRs and SBSs legal here in Washington... :mad:

Trunk Monkey
March 20, 2012, 01:44 PM
Why do I want to add a bunch of extra varibles to the mix? If it's germane to the stop , yes tell the Officer you are armed. And if he asks you want to be truthfull of course. Beyond that you might as well say "Good morning Officer I'd like to do everything in my power to maximize the time I spend here at the roadside, so let me just mention that I'm armed and get you all freaked out. " " And hey, while I'm at it let me just hand you one more task to accomplish before you clear this stop".

cwelk45
March 20, 2012, 01:54 PM
I've carried and had a CCW for nearly twenty years and never had a run in where a LE asked about a weapon, funny side note though, last Sturday night at 12:00 a person who rents a building from us called and said he had a pipe leaking water. My wife and I left the house a few minutes later and I slid my holstered Kahr PM45 into my pants and put my Glock t-shirt on. Anyway, as I was digging dirt out of the water meter box to access the valve, two local LE's pulled up to see what was going on. While I was squatted down digging, my shirt slid up over my jeans exposing the pistol. When I stood back up, the younger officer asked me in a sort of a polite yet cocky tone "Why are you carrying a gun?" I'm sure my answer(in retrospect) probably sounded smart-assed, but was "I always carry a pistol, would you like to see my permit?" He just stood there with a half angry, half surprised look on his face. A minute or two later he left and his seargent walked up and we talked for a bit about his new Charger and the other normal crap. He was a 25 year veteran officer and never once even mentioned the gun and was as nice as he could be. I guess when you have done police work for a while, you develop a sense of who you are dealing with and even if they are armed, who's a threat and who's a good guy.

scaatylobo
March 20, 2012, 01:56 PM
I was on the job in a city for 26 years and I LOVED having a citizen tell me prior to my asking " are there any weapons in there",that they were armed AND where the gun was.

I let most go when I was told PRIOR to asking.

I do get stopped [ very,VERY seldom [ low profile ] and when stopped I I.D. myself and state that I am armed.

So far all have been very polite and let me go with a "slow down" and a have a nice day sir [ I am MUCH older than the average officer ].

Being polite and honest is THE best policy imnsho.

allaroundhunter
March 20, 2012, 02:07 PM
What I mean is the law about notifying still stands. However the language in the law that specifies the penalty was removed. So basically it's illegal not to notify an LEO that you're carrying, but there's absolutely no penalty for not doing so.

We have this because the castle doctrine has been extended to one's vehicle, and therefore a CHL is not needed for a person to carry concealed while inside a vehicle. So even if someone is legally carrying, they don't legally have to notify (if they are not a CHL holder).

Grmlin
March 20, 2012, 02:10 PM
@Johnny Doller, good link, I guess I'll use some of this down time I've aquired to get upto date on the regs

@Bigfatdave, I have a sissy bar back that works with the black rifles but it's a pain to break down the .270 and forget it with a lever action. You wouldn't believe some of the ideas I've had.

From what I've seen myself and read from here and other forums most LE's don't have a problem with legal carry, but we all have bad days. You may have to talk to one LE but they have to deal with multiple possible threats every day. Are there people who abuse thier authority yes but it's an extremly small percentage and there are ways to fix that (legal). If I'm treated with curtesy I reply in same. Along time back I was stopped (10 over posted) and the officer was just fuming, late at night tired, when he took a break in berating me for my speed all I said was "one of those days" and I literaly heard him deflate and the rest of the conversation was very proffesional. He gave me a warning ticket and told me about deer up the road. They have a job to do and want to get home to thier families just as much as anyone else.

P-32
March 20, 2012, 02:42 PM
I just retired from L/E for health reasons. I viewed the carry permit people as potential back up. I worked in a rural City where I might be the only officer on for quite a few miles around. I knew the permit holders had their backgrounds checked. Almost all would not do something stupid which could cost them their permit. (very few crimes are committed by permit holders) It’s not a requirement here in Washington State to tell the officer you are packing concealed. Those who did let me know they were carrying often times found themselves cut loose with a verbal warning. I felt like by telling me they were armed and had a permit was a sign of respect for me. I appreciated it and thus the reward. I still had my limits though. I could deal with an infraction but criminal matters were another story. But you know what, I never arrested a permit holder or had a reason to.

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2012, 03:24 PM
I would not have handed it over under those circumstances. I might have asked him to leave my property if he wasn't going to help.

Police only have the right to disarm you for officer safety if they have RAS of a crime being committed and there is RAS to believe the subject is armed and dangerous. I too would have told the LEO to leave my property. Maybe he felt he had RAS to believe you had committed arson....

RAS = Reasonable Articulable Suspicion

rem22long40x
March 20, 2012, 03:49 PM
In Texas you are required to show your C.H.L. with your D.L. weather you are carring or not . and to not do so can be means of a 5 year revocation and a fine. all thow you are not required to have a C.H.L. to have a consealed gun in your car.

allaroundhunter
March 20, 2012, 03:52 PM
In Texas you are required to show your C.H.L. with your D.L. weather you are carring or not . and to not do so can be means of a 5 year revocation and a fine. all thow you are not required to have a C.H.L. to have a consealed gun in your car.

The penalty for not informing has been removed.

Trunk Monkey
March 20, 2012, 04:04 PM
In Texas you are required to show your C.H.L. with your D.L. weather you are carring or not . and to not do so can be means of a 5 year revocation and a fine. all thow you are not required to have a C.H.L. to have a consealed gun in your car.

GC 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. (a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

Are you sure about that?

thefamcnaj
March 20, 2012, 04:18 PM
My only encounter, involving a Leo was positive. However it didn't involve a traffic stop.
I called to make a report because the vacant house beside mine had been vandalised. All the Windows had been broken out by neighborhood teenagers.
Any way when the cop arrived I was unarmed.. He asked to see my id because I was the one making the complaint. I didn't show my cwp because I wasn't armed. After I walked away I was concerned that I may have violated the law because SC is a duty to inform state.
So I walked back to the cop told him I had a question. So I said,"Sir I am unarmed but I do have a cwp". "When I showed you my id, should I have disclosed this to you?"
He replied, "No, if you are unarmed, you don't have to mention your cwp".
I then asked how do you feel about cwp among civilians?
He said,"I think its great, and all responceble law abiding citizens should have one"

Rob G
March 20, 2012, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by rem22long40x
In Texas you are required to show your C.H.L. with your D.L. weather you are carring or not . and to not do so can be means of a 5 year revocation and a fine.

You don't have to show your CHL if you're not carrying.

There's also no penalty for not showing your CHL. Back in 2009 the Texas legislature wanted to remove this requirement from the law. However due to the screwy nature of the TX legislative process it was going to be hard to do, so instead they just removed the penalty portion of the law. So it is illegal to not show your CHL when you're carrying. However, there isn't any penalty for not doing it.

We have this because the castle doctrine has been extended to one's vehicle, and therefore a CHL is not needed for a person to carry concealed while inside a vehicle.

Actually the law that allows us to carry in a car without a CHL is an older law that has nothing to do with our Castle Doctrine.

Flintknapper
March 20, 2012, 05:32 PM
We have this because the castle doctrine has been extended to one's vehicle, and therefore a CHL is not needed for a person to carry concealed while inside a vehicle.
The Castle Doctrine (in Texas) does extend to your vehicle (or any other place you have a legal right to be) BUT it has no connection to lawful citizens (not otherwise restricted) carrying a firearm in their vehicle. That is covered by the Motorist Protection Act. It is the MPA that gives the authority, not the Castle Doctrine.


So even if someone is legally carrying, they don't legally have to notify (if they are not a CHL holder).
Technically...even a CHL is carrying under the authority of the MPA, but since the law to inform (when carrying and I.D. is demanded) remains in effect, you still have to, THOUGH there is no longer any penalty for not doing so.

Lovely...huh? Come on Texas....lets get with it. I am really starting to lose faith in our law makers (legislators) when they can't seem to pass laws that address the ENTIRE issue.

allaroundhunter
March 20, 2012, 05:39 PM
Technically...even a CHL is carrying under the authority of the MPA, but since the law to inform (when carrying and I.D. is demanded) remains in effect, you still have to, THOUGH there is no longer any penalty for not doing so.

Sorry, I meant that I can legally carry in a vehicle without a CHL, and then if stopped I am not legally required to inform the officer that I am carrying. Whereas someone who does have a CHL would be required to inform the LEO if in the same situation.

av8usn
March 20, 2012, 05:50 PM
Most of the responses seem positive; just be thankful you do not live in the "People's Republic" of Illinois or Maryland or New York.

Ranger Roberts
March 20, 2012, 06:20 PM
In PA I have no way of knowing if you have a ccw. It is a separate card issued through the Sheriffs dept. I verify that your card is good through a serial number in the corner of your card (I live and work in a fairly rural county, it might be different in other parts of the state). I really appreciate when people immediately declare that they have a firearm though, even if it is in the trunk. Traffic stops can get crazy real fast, and limiting the amount of surprises is always appreciated. Now if you are carrying concealed without a permit, we have a whole other issue!

Agsalaska
March 20, 2012, 07:51 PM
I have never run into that situation. However in Las Vegas where I live we had a rookie LE handcuff and disarm a guy who had a CC permit a few years ago at night outside of hs business. If I remember right he was up there investigating some wind damage to his roof or something but there was no crime or threat of crime at the time. She asked for his ID. He showed the ID and CC card. She cuffed him, disarmed him, and then took the cuffs off. He filed a complaint that the newspaper picked up on and received a half hearted apology from the Sherriff's office. It went something like 'We reserve the right to do that at any time but it should not be commonpractice especially in such an instance.'

We have to register all of our handguns with Clark County and get this stupid card for each one. Most of the cops tell me that it is a complete waist of time because they never find registered guns at a crime scene. They will tell me that as they call the gun in that I just carried into their station. I had one guy pay pretty close attention to one pistol because I think he was interested in it.

I also play golf with a local detective. He says he could really care less. Registration, Concealed carry, etc dont change the game for him at all. The bad guys will still have guns and they are not going to tell you anyway. That logic has always made a lot of sense to me.

Ranger Roberts
March 20, 2012, 07:59 PM
The civilians without any clue will generally be nervous and let you know right away. I have only come across one (that I know of!) that I found upon searching and claimed to be clueless. Let's face it though, you bought the gun, you know if your state requires a ccw. Criminals tend to start getting fidgety right away. They usually stash it somewhere before we approach the car and with our lights on them we see their hands and body movement stashing something. More often then not it's weed, but sometimes its a gun. A lot of people tend to try to shield it by sitting awkwardly or facing the gun away from you. I'll be honest, there is a lot of little things that people do that gives them away, and after a few years of patrol experience you pick up on them.
I'd also like to say that I, and many if not most of my fellow officers are pro-carry. If you legally have it, no problem. I would like to see more inexperienced shooters take classes on it though. As a combat vet, I've seen very well trained men crumble under the pressure when a gun is pulled. A little training for people that conceal carry and don't have a ton of real world experience could possibly go a long way.

oldbear
March 20, 2012, 09:02 PM
In all of the states I've lived and worked in have had a duty to inform officers. When I was on the street I always appreciated a heads up from the CCW holder. Armed or not as long as someone obeyed the laws within reason, we did just fine.:) My only gripe were the FEW who did not understand that a CCW permit was just that, and having a CCW permit did not give them full law enforcement authority.

Orion8472
March 20, 2012, 09:36 PM
I got pulled over for having expired plates. I was so shocked . . . that I didn't notice and have them updated in time. . . that I spaced on the fact that I had my gun on me at that time. He told me to get it done on Monday [it was a Friday night].

Does their onboard computer tell them who has a CCW?

Steve CT
March 20, 2012, 11:05 PM
My state does not require me to inform, I believe it would be better for me to inform, simply because my wallet is in my right (strong side carry) hand rear pocket, and I really don't want any misunderstandings.

Window down, both hands on the wheel in plain sight, "I have a Carry Permit and I'm armed, my wallet is in my back pocket, near my pistol". Every LEO I've ever asked about this (well over a dozen) says that this is exactly how they would like this handled.

Deus Machina
March 21, 2012, 05:00 AM
I'm happy that Florida does not require us to inform, even though I would.

Without trying to cause a debate, I don't think it should be a law, but I do think it's a good idea if there's any chance it might matter. Especially since the officer would appreciate it and it might get you a warning instead of a ticket. :D

Mr Woody
March 21, 2012, 10:07 AM
I am a retired LEO from a state that did not have a requirement to notify. But it did tie the carry permit to the computer system and your driver's license. After calling in a vehicle stop dispatch would often have run the registered owner and told me about the CCW permit before I got out. Always knew about them after running a driver's license check.

After CCW permits where made shall issue and they were attached to the driver's license I at first asked if they were carrying. After a few months I gave up caring and did not even bring it up on simple contact and traffic stop. If someone told me they were carrying with or without a permit (legal in a vehicle in my state) I would ask them where it was and suggest they just leave it there.

I suspect there is a difference in how the officer treats the situation based on the officer's age and experience with people. This is a generalization: The young college grad fresh out of training will be much more aggressive than the military veteran / more experienced officer.

If your stopped for a minor infraction in your blue pickup the officer may have in mind that blue pickup that just knocked over the local gas station. If you think the officer is over reacting I suggest you cooperate with him. Whatever his reason for being cross, you may be able to teach him that a CCW person may be a friend in the long run.

Hardware
March 21, 2012, 11:36 AM
I got pulled over for speeding with my OC gun on the dashboard, as Delaware law requires. Aside from putting my hands on my knees instead of at 10 and 2 o'clock on the wheel, nothing changed. Of course, I had pulled over, shut off my truck and had my flashers on with the window rolled down before the cop pulled out into traffic. The state police officer never even mentioned the gun. He even wrote me up for 60 in a 55. I was doing a bit more than that. :what:

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 12:21 PM
After CCW permits where made shall issue and they were attached to the driver's license I at first asked if they were carrying. After a few months I gave up caring and did not even bring it up on simple contact and traffic stop.

I have an honest question, that maybe you can answer for me. You pull someone over. Go to the window, obtain the driver's license, insurance and registration, go back and THEN find out they have a CCW permit. Upon your return to the subject's window you THEN ask if they are carrying a gun? Did I understand your process above correctly?

So, my question honestly is, why would the knowledge that the person has a CCW suddenly raise a concern about a firearm causing you to ask, when before you found out they had a CCW there was not enough concern to ask? The knowledge of the CCW permit should indicate that any firearm carried or transported by the subject is 99% likely to be legal. I understand from your post that you changed your habits, but I am just curious as to what the thought process was when you did feel the need to ask AND why not just automatically at first contact?

Formula94
March 21, 2012, 04:19 PM
Far as I am aware, in Minnesota there is no law that says you have to declare whether you are armed or not -- unless the cop asks you. Thought it was the same in all states.
A buddy of mine is a Washington County (MN) sheriff's deputy and he actually told me that it shows up when they run your plates if you have a permit to carry. Not sure if he was just BS'ing me or not.

JustinJ
March 21, 2012, 04:36 PM
The opinions of LE on this board are not going to be representative of LE on the whole. This is a board for gun enthusiasts and most gun enthusiasts view concealed carry favorably. Many cops are not gun enthusiasts as i can attest to by the like new condition of LE trade in guns i've purchased, minus the holster wear. I don't mean to imply most cops are against concealed carry but their points of views are far more diverse than what you will find of LE here.

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2012, 05:34 PM
A buddy of mine is a Washington County (MN) sheriff's deputy and he actually told me that it shows up when they run your plates if you have a permit to carry. Not sure if he was just BS'ing me or not.

How can a police officer tell who is driving the vehicle from the license plates? I have one vehicle registered in my name that it is a 90% guarantee that the driver won't be me, the person whose name is returned by running the plates.

Mr Woody
March 22, 2012, 08:30 AM
NavyLCDR the dispatcher probably does not have time to run the license on a registered owner most of the time. During the day I probably did not have that information until the license itself was run. At night when more bad guys are out running around it is nice to have.

Running the driver's license check during a stop is standard OP.

Of course you can't know who is driving the car until you contact the; seems like an odd question. The idea of running the registered owner at the beginning of the stop is not to find out about a CCW. It is to check on the possibility of warrants or other previous contacts that could affect how the stop is conducted.

As JustinJ said, I am an enthusiast but overall the police are very pro gun on an individual basis. When you see a statement from a police department that is anti-gun stop and remember that the chief work at the pleasure of the Mayor and the Mayor is a politician.

You asked why I stopped asking so I will clarify a bit. I got to know the CCW people a bit better. Now, if they have been drinking, uncooperative or there was something else suspicious about them I may have still asked. The action of asking if someone is armed is not an unreasonable question.

Ala Dan
March 22, 2012, 11:51 AM
Greeting's Tim My Friend-

Speaking as a former LEO, I have NO PROBLEM with you being armed and in
your vechile. I'm a highly trained, professional LEO; and I like to treat folks,
the way I woluld want too be treated. I'm always on the "look-out" for the
unexpected; which as you know could present its-self in many forms, and
from many ways. Simply runn'in a license plate [with the operator informing
me that you may be armed cuz you have a CCW license]; don't really excite
me. Upon our [greeting], I'm sure that you are going to tell me that you are
armed, correct~? If you present your DL, please always present your carry
license as well; and we will both be more relaxed. Heck, if time permits-we
may even discuss a little firearms knowledge~? ;):cool: :D

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 11:58 AM
Of course you can't know who is driving the car until you contact the; seems like an odd question.

My odd question was in response to this odd statement posted by Formula94 (and a statement which I have heard more than once), "A buddy of mine is a Washington County (MN) sheriff's deputy and he actually told me that it shows up when they run your plates if you have a permit to carry. Not sure if he was just BS'ing me or not."

It is impossible for the officer to determine if the driver has a CCW permit or not from the license plates, because the license plates cannot possibly provide the officer with the identity of who is driving the vehicle. Maybe a likely indication, but nothing for sure.

The action of asking if someone is armed is not an unreasonable question.

What I specifically asked about was: You stop a person, interact with them, go back to your vehicle, run their driver's license and THEN find out they have a CCW permit. Then, AFTER you find out that they have done everything to get the permit, it is still valid and there is 99% chance that any firearm they may possess is completely legal, some officers will then RETURN to the subject and then ask them about the presence of a firearm. That may not be unreansonable, but it certainly is unnecessary considering the fact that the officer felt no need to ask about a gun at the beginning when he knew basically nothing about the subject he had stopped.

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 12:07 PM
Upon our [greeting], I'm sure that you are going to tell me that you are armed, correct~?

If you present your DL, please always present your carry license as well; and we will both be more relaxed. Heck, if time permits-we may even discuss a little firearms knowledge~? ;):cool: :D

If my state law does not require me to tell you about my gun or permit, why would I? It is a legal object in my lawful possession. The safest place for my gun is in it's holster with nobody touching it. You, as a police officer, may feel no need to fondle my gun when I tell you about it, but can you guarantee that 100% of the other officers will not want to?

When I tell a police officer about my lawfully possessed and carried gun, which is safe in it's holster with nobody touching, I am doing NOTHING in reality to actually MAKE anyone safer. All that I am doing is extending an invitation to the officer to fondle my gun, uneccisarily, if they choose to do so.

I don't tell my garbage man, the guy cutting wood at the lumber yard or the farmers near where I live about my gun because there is no need to. If you stop me for speeding, there is no need for me to tell a police officer about my lawfully carried and possessed gun any more than to tell them about my cell phone, gps unit, or which CDs are in my stereo. It is completely 100% irrelevent to the reason I am stopped.

Before someone asks what do you have to lose by informing...like I said, the safest place for my gun is in it's holster with nobody touching it. Telling the officer about the gun when not required does NOTHING more than extend an invitation to that officer to fondle that gun, "for officer safety", of course, which instead puts everyone nearby at an increased risk of a negligent discharge.

Hit_Factor
March 22, 2012, 12:26 PM
Police only have the right to disarm you for officer safety

RAS = Reasonable Articulable Suspicion


LEO has same rights as everyone else, and nothing more or less. Their authority is different.

When I was a Cop Articulable Suspicion had nothing to do with reasonable. When did that Change?

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 01:02 PM
LEO has same rights as everyone else, and nothing more or less. Their authority is different.

When I was a Cop Articulable Suspicion had nothing to do with reasonable. When did that Change?

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk

It changed in 1967 in a US Supreme Court case: Terry v. Ohio.

http://www.legalupdateonline.com/4th/59

Defined: "Reasonable suspicion" is information which is sufficient to cause a reasonable law enforcement officer, taking into account his or her training and experience, to reasonably believe that the person to be detained is, was, or is about to be, involved in criminal activity. The officer must be able to articulate more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or ‘hunch' of criminal activity." (Terry v. Ohio (1968) 392 U.S. 1, 27 [20 L.Ed.2nd 889, 909].)

How old are you? You must have been a long time ago.

Hit_Factor
March 22, 2012, 01:11 PM
So it hasn't changed, just means it passed the test of a reasonable man.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk

aeriedad
March 22, 2012, 01:32 PM
If my state law does not require me to tell you about my gun or permit, why would I? It is a legal object in my lawful possession. The safest place for my gun is in it's holster with nobody touching it. You, as a police officer, may feel no need to fondle my gun when I tell you about it, but can you guarantee that 100% of the other officers will not want to?

When I tell a police officer about my lawfully possessed and carried gun, which is safe in it's holster with nobody touching, I am doing NOTHING in reality to actually MAKE anyone safer. All that I am doing is extending an invitation to the officer to fondle my gun, uneccisarily, if they choose to do so.
...
Before someone asks what do you have to lose by informing...like I said, the safest place for my gun is in it's holster with nobody touching it. Telling the officer about the gun when not required does NOTHING more than extend an invitation to that officer to fondle that gun, "for officer safety", of course, which instead puts everyone nearby at an increased risk of a negligent discharge.

Although we are required in SC to notify an LEO of our CWP and whether we are armed when ID is requested, I think it's a dumb law too. It's almost never relevant to the purpose of the stop, and leaving the weapon holstered in my possession is without doubt the safest course of action. I don't disagree with a word of your justification for not notifying, but I can answer your question of why one might do so anyway.

I respect LE, and I'm one of the good guys. By providing my CWP and declaring my firearm, I convey these sentiments to the LEO. So while I object to the law on 4th and 5th Amendment grounds, it doesn't have much practical effect for me. It's just a dumb law, because the good guys don't have anything to hide, and the bad guys aren't going to tell on themselves anyway.

To your point about whether notifying an LEO about my CWP and firearm invites unnecessary fondling, I've already stated that I agree it's far safer holstered in my possession. I also agree this is a valid reason for choosing not to notify the LEO, where such a choice is legal. However, I would generally choose to notify anyway, even if I weren't legally bound to do so, based on a subtle risk vs. reward equation:

Most officers know better than to remove a citizen's legally carried firearm "for officer safety" during a simple traffic stop. Although it could happen, it's not the expected outcome. On the other hand, by notifying the LEO of my permit and firearm, and thus genuinely and politely letting him or her know that I respect LE and I'm one of the good guys, I may be let off with a warning. In my estimation this is a far more likely outcome than having the LEO remove the firearm from my possession, however briefly. If I thought a more unpleasant outcome were likely, I would not be as willing to notify, but may consider doing so anyway as a matter of respect (again, if not already legally bound to do so anyway).

But to the main point...we should not be required to notify. It should be a matter of discretion for both citizens and LEOs: for citizens, whether they want to notify or not; for LEOs, whether they think they should ask about firearms or not.

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 01:58 PM
On the other hand, by notifying the LEO of my permit and firearm, and thus genuinely and politely letting him or her know that I respect LE and I'm one of the good guys, I may be let off with a warning. In my estimation this is a far more likely outcome than having the LEO remove the firearm from my possession, however briefly.

You are a very honest person! I feel that is why most people really desire to inform.

When I am stopped, and I used to speed chronically and gotten stopped quite a bit more than the normal person, I would always look for the safest place to pull over, have my window rolled all the way down, not just cracked, driver's license and military ID card (driver's license not valid without it) in my hand resting just outside the window, folder with insurance and registration in my lap, other hand on steering wheel. Greet officer with all the pleasantries and sirs.

If that isn't polite and respectful enough, I really don't think telling them about my CPL and gun is going to do much more, just for me personally.

webfox
March 22, 2012, 02:06 PM
I haven't read every post, but in NC, you have to inform when you are addressed by a police officer. Most days, my bank has an officer at the door, and just his or her saying, "Hello," means I must inform them. If I'm not the only one walking in at the time, then someone nearby can overhear that I have a CCW or that I might have a firearm in my vehicle. It may make some nervous, or it might make others remember my license plate number if they see me get in our out of my vehicle.

I have mixed feelings about the law. I think the LE has a hard enough job and I'm not looking to make it harder. At the same time I'm concerned about how I appear to those who hate gun owners, or those who have $15 to find my address after running my plate online.

Shadow 7D
March 22, 2012, 02:34 PM
Don't forget about the Unions
when actual members of the local teachers union were polled on a topic that the teachers and government workers unions (why in the hell are they unionized?) have been testifying against, they found 49% were for it, and 51% were against.

Yet if you had listened to the union shill, you would think the teachers and school administrators were ready to take up torches. One could see this as union problems, and they wonder why the school board is so unpopular.

As for the must inform law
I believe the term used for my state is 'official contact'
don't believe Hello would count.

ny32182
March 22, 2012, 02:38 PM
I have a lead foot, a long commute, and live in a "must inform" state, so I get to "inform" probably more often than the average person. However, if not required, I would not do it.

Only once has there ever been an issue made of it, but even one time out of many is one time too often. It is a terrible law. How is that "officer safety" going to work out if the officer shoots me in the back while trying to figure out how to unload a gun he may or may not be familiar with? My life would be over or changed forever, and his career would likely be over. And for what?

Also I guess it varies by state, but "are there guns in the car" is not an unsolicited standard question during a traffic stop here. Frankly that question would baffle me. Can he ask you to list the entire contents of your trunk, for example? I don't believe he has the right to just search anything in the car that he wishes.

Sometimes I get a ticket, and sometimes I don't. I have never once got the impression that the discresionary decision on whether to issue a ticket is in any way tied to whether or not I have a CWP.

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 07:55 PM
It's funny how some state legislatures think that requiring law abiding citizens to tell cops about their lawfully possessed and lawfully carried firearms is somehow supposed to magically make police safer from those same law abiding citizens.... :scrutiny:

Well, OK, it's even funnier (or sadder?) that some gun owners think the same way....

Steve CT
March 22, 2012, 09:28 PM
I understand that I am not required to notify. If I prefer to inform, I really don't need people telling me not to. In the same way that it's my right to carry, it's my right to inform if I choose to, correct?

I don't mean to be confrontational, but are people here really advising me not to exercise my rights the way I legally want to?

Deanimator
March 22, 2012, 11:16 PM
Especially since the officer would appreciate it and it might get you a warning instead of a ticket.

What if the cop would appreciate you not CARRYING? Would you do STOP carrying to please him?
The way to avoid traffic tickets is to obey the traffic laws, NOT to render extra-legal "courtesies" that invariably morph into extra-legal entitlements.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2012, 01:31 AM
I understand that I am not required to notify. If I prefer to inform, I really don't need people telling me not to. In the same way that it's my right to carry, it's my right to inform if I choose to, correct?

I don't mean to be confrontational, but are people here really advising me not to exercise my rights the way I legally want to?

I can't speak for others. I am merely posting the reasons why I do not inform so that people can see all sides of the argument and decide for themselves. Also, realize that it is your right to choose to notify...by exercising your right to choose to notify, you are waiving your right to privacy (concealed means concealed, right?) and if the officer chooses to disarm you (for officer safety, of course) you waive your 4th amendment right of protection from unreasonable seizure of your personal property and if the officer chooses to run the serial number of your gun (I have no idea why they do this, but they routinely do when they come into possession of a completely lawfully possessed gun) you also waive your right of protection from unreasonable searches.

As soon as an officer who has lawfully detained you becomes aware of or has reasonable suspicion of the presence of a firearm, he now has the authority to disarm you for officer safety for the duration of the stop. Sure, the courts say "armed AND DANGEROUS" but there has only been one state supreme court so far (and I don't recall the state at the moment) that has ever separated armed from dangerous.

Steve CT
March 23, 2012, 06:21 AM
I do appreciate the opinions expressed here, I must admit that the discussion has me thinking more about this than I have recently.

This is why it's The High Road!

hardluk1
March 23, 2012, 09:36 AM
I have not been stopped by a officers to weight the pro's and con's of how they react to being inform that I carry. NC law! Only licence checks and there no one seems to carre no matter troppers or deputies. I keep my CC and drivers licence back to back and pass the CC side out to the officers and tell them I am carry'n and have not had officer care one way or the other or ask about my firearm. Just have a good day and go on about my way.

It would be nice to not have to deal with it but I also don't want a young new officer or old crusty one getting all fluffed up when slow computer or some dispatcher comes up with info saying I carry and not have my cc and drivers licence up and be ready to tell them ether.. Some officers i know are so layed back and calm I think they can handle about anything and some are twisted a bit to tight and allways seem on edge. Maybe the coffee too. Know different than the rest of us.

Ole leo buddy back in florida said his computer info should tell him if i carry even with a NC licence tag. Not sure if thats true but when so many officers you see will pull a person and stay in there car long enought to review your info before getting out of there car you might as well be up front with them, hands at or out the window with my licence's just to be safe.

The Lone Haranguer
March 23, 2012, 10:20 AM
The opinions of LE on this board are not going to be representative of LE on the whole. This is a board for gun enthusiasts and most gun enthusiasts view concealed carry favorably. [...] I don't mean to imply most cops are against concealed carry but their points of views are far more diverse than what you will find of LE here.
I agree. A better way to frame the question, IMO, would have been to ask non-LE members their experiences, to get a better cross section (as far as that is possible) of views.

My one interaction with LE while armed (Glendale, AZ PD in 2007), was positive. As far as any "duty to inform," I will follow whatever the law is, but not volunteer any extraneous information.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2012, 02:44 PM
I can recall 5 times I have been stopped for speeding while I was carrying a firearm. Never informed. Got tickets 2 out of the 5 times. Firearm or CPL was never mentioned by the officer or myself and remained a completely irrelevant non-issue as it should be.

Even the one time the officer asked me to step out of the vehicle so he could lecture me and let me go with a warning, just not in front of my family....my openly carried stainless Taurus PT-145 in the holster on my belt didn't phase him one bit.

allaroundhunter
March 23, 2012, 03:00 PM
Even the one time the officer asked me to step out of the vehicle so he could lecture me and let me go with a warning, just not in front of my family....my openly carried stainless Taurus PT-145 in the holster on my belt didn't phase him one bit.

This surprises me, but in a good way.

Sam1911
March 23, 2012, 03:05 PM
This was my post from after last St. Patrick's Day:

I got stopped last night on my way home from practice. (I'd forgotten it was St. Patrick's Day and hadn't counted on all three of my township's cars being staged at the turn-off to my neck of the woods.)

Young cop walks up and after telling me my headlight is out (doh!) asks for license & reg.

I tell him I'm going to reach for my wallet, in my left front pocket.

"What, are you armed?"
"W..."
"'Cause that's ok if you are I don't care it's just nobody ever bothers to tell me where' they're going to put their hands so I figured you probably were and that's cool, no problem I just have to do the license thing 'cause I already called the plate in but you aren't getting a ticket just a warning and you don't even have to really follow the directions on the sheet it's just get the headlight fixed sometime i'll be right back ... hey... wait, are you carring anything COOL?
"Uh, Smith and Wesson. 629. ..."
"Oh COOL! Hey do you know if there are any cool gun shops around? I moved out here from Philly a while back and I love it but where do you go for gun stuff? ...."

...And on, and on, with a very chatty and pleasant young cop who never did ask to see my LCTF and who told me that they were all out looking for drunks, and hadn't found one yet. :)


...15 minutes later...

"Well take care, you have my card call me if you ever need anything, see you at the next tractor show or the fireman's carival maybe, g'night!

(To myself:)"Uh, strange, he forgot to even write me the warning...!" :)

jimmyraythomason
March 23, 2012, 04:38 PM
So basically it's illegal not to notify an LEO that you're carrying, but there's absolutely no penalty for not doing so.
A law without consequence is merely advice.

allaroundhunter
March 23, 2012, 06:22 PM
A law without consequence is merely advice.

That may be your take, but as far as I'm concerned it is still a law. I am going to follow the law, even if the penalty for not doing so has been removed. Police officers take a risk and make enough of a sacrifice going to work each day to uphold the laws, and I will respect them enough to notify them that I am carrying. I am a law-abiding citizen, and I will stay as such.

jimmyraythomason
March 23, 2012, 06:37 PM
Not just my "take" allaroundhunter. I served as a city councilman for 8 years(1992-2000). Part of my duties was overseeing city ordinances,writing them,reviewing them,etc..before they were turned over to the city's attorney for review before acceptance as law. There are several things an ordinance/law must meet to be valid. First,(and foremost) it must not conflict with federal law,the constitution or state law. It must have consequences for violations otherwise it carries no weight. How can you be compelled to follow a law if there is no penalty for not doing so?

allaroundhunter
March 23, 2012, 06:53 PM
How can you be compelled to follow a law if there is no penalty for not doing so?

Because it is written as law. There does not have to be a penalty for me to follow it, my morals tell me that if something is written as law to follow and obey it as such. I understand others see it differently, but if something is written as a law, regardless of the penalty for not obeying it, I will not view it simply as a "guideline".

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2012, 06:56 PM
Police officers take a risk and make enough of a sacrifice going to work each day to uphold the laws, and I will respect them enough to notify them that I am carrying.

So do garbage collectors, farmers and lumberjacks, and they die on the job more often than police officers do. In addition the garbage collector, farmer and lumberjack contributes directly to your health and safety every day.

This surprises me, but in a good way.

Well, it was after he had my driver's license and military ID card showing I am a Navy officer and had checked me for warrants.

allaroundhunter
March 23, 2012, 07:24 PM
So do garbage collectors, farmers and lumberjacks, and they die on the job more often than police officers do. In addition the garbage collector, farmer and lumberjack contributes directly to your health and safety every day.

NavyLCDR, I know you are vehemently against informing police officers that you are armed, but you and I both know that grouping police officers with garbage collectors, farmers, and lumberjacks is not a fair comparison. As I said, I know other's opinions differ, but I personally will follow the law and what it tells me to do.

The best way to lose a right, is to abuse it. Carrying a gun is not abusing our right to carry it, but blatantly disregarding a law because there is no consequence for doing so is.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2012, 10:34 PM
NavyLCDR, I know you are vehemently against informing police officers that you are armed, but you and I both know that grouping police officers with garbage collectors, farmers, and lumberjacks is not a fair comparison. As I said, I know other's opinions differ, but I personally will follow the law and what it tells me to do.

The best way to lose a right, is to abuse it. Carrying a gun is not abusing our right to carry it, but blatantly disregarding a law because there is no consequence for doing so is.
I am not advocating or meaning to imply that anyone should break the law. If the law requires a person to inform, then they should inform when the law requires it. Even though it is a stupid law that does not cause anyone to be safer in reality.

I am stating that people like to preach "concealed is concealed!" Yet some of those same people will say in the same breath, "Unless that stranger that you are interacting with is wearing a badge and a uniform, then it is 'polite' to inform them because they have a dangerous job and want to go home safe at night to their families."

If it is 'polite' to tell a police officer about your gun, when the law does not require it, because they have a dangerous job and want to go home safe to their families, then I would say that it would be equally as 'polite' if not more 'polite' to inform people whose jobs are more dangerous than police officers, who I am sure want to go home just a safe to their families at night, and who make equal contributions, if not more, to our health and safety every day on the job as police officers do.

I just don't see it as a requirement to tell a police officer about my permit or my gun to be polite and respectful to them. Also, my telling the officer about my gun does absolutely nothing to increase their chances of going home safe at night. In fact, if they choose to handle my gun BECAUSE I tell them about it, and it discharges while they handling it, then I have contributed to them or someone else possibly NOT going home safe at night. The risk may be small, but a completely unnecessary to cause to happen.

When a police officer stops me for speeding, his job is to write me a ticket for speeding if he so desires, and to do everything required to make the ticket stick in court, if needed. My gun and/or his knowledge of my gun is as completely irrelevant to him doing his job and completing the stop uninjured as my cell phone or what CD is in my stereo are, as long as my gun stays in it's holster, which I will make every effort to ensure that it stays in it's holster.

taraquian
March 24, 2012, 12:29 AM
When i was younger I OCd a 1911. You couldnt see it when I was sitting in my car so I always notified when stopped, which was about 2x a week. I was legal, but as my grandma always said "You can be DEAD RIGHT"

bigfatdave
March 24, 2012, 07:23 AM
The best way to lose a right, is to abuse it.you're confising rights and privileges

stop asking permission to do something entirely normal

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