CCW - regarding gun printing


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Vector
March 20, 2012, 01:01 PM
I believe I know the law fairly well in my state regarding where I can legally carry and those areas where it is prohibited. Additionally I believe my understanding of when I can use my firearm is also sound. However it dawned on me that while I carry concealed, I am not positive how the law defines concealed. Granted I know the basic concept, but if the gun is out of plain sight, but I bend over to pick something up, it might become partially visible for a brief second.
Furthermore, if it is intermittently printing an outline depending on my movements, type of clothes I'm wearing, a very windy day, etc., would that be subject to violation of the law :confused:

The question might be subjective depending on who sees it and presumably any LEO that would be called to make a determination. Still I am wondering if any state CC laws address the aforementioned with any specificity?

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Jorg Nysgerrig
March 20, 2012, 01:02 PM
Depends on the state, without that information it's pretty much impossible to tell.

Yo Mama
March 20, 2012, 01:03 PM
What state are you in?

Vector
March 20, 2012, 01:41 PM
Florida, but I also want to hear about other states and how they specify (if at all) regarding intermittent printing or a situation where it becomes visible for a brief period as I described in the opening post.

smalls
March 20, 2012, 01:46 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Florida just passed a law not too long ago that made it OK to print, or become momentarily unconcealed. But no one knows exactly how long it's OK to be unconcealed. The bill actually started as an open carry bill, but got watered down tremendously.
I live in MI, an open carry state, so I don't much worry about staying concealed. I'll wear a T shirt, and probably print like crazy when I bend down, but I don't really care too much.

Loosedhorse
March 20, 2012, 02:19 PM
Still I am wondering if any state CC laws address the aforementioned with any specificity?In MA, I'd expect three things:
1) If I give someone reason to believe I'm armed, they will call 911.
2) If I am the subject of a 911 MWAG call, I expect my CLEO will pull my license.*
3) If I look for that in the statutes, I will find nothing, except:A license may be revoked or suspended by the licensing authority if it appears that the holder is no longer a suitable person to possess such license.So: concealed means concealed.

*Doesn't mean I wouldn't contest his decision.

MedWheeler
March 20, 2012, 03:37 PM
Yes, Vector, Florida did indeed recently decriminalize the "brief open" display of a normally-concealed firearm or weapon when carried by a concealed-carry licensee. Such "brief" display must not be "in a rude or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense."
No one has defined "brief" yet, and there have been no cases yet to try it that I know of. As "smalls" stated, the intent was to pass a bill that would have permitted CC-licensees to actually carry openly, but ended up being just this by the time it got through the more liberal side of the State Legislature.

From the section of the statute which prohibits open carry: It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2012, 03:50 PM
Florida, but I also want to hear about other states and how they specify (if at all) regarding intermittent printing or a situation where it becomes visible for a brief period as I described in the opening post.
Washington, no concern at all. Open carry is legal. Concealed carry is legal with a CPL. So, if you have a CPL, anything between 100% open to 100% concealed is legal. It is only illegal to intentionally display your firearm in a manner, at a time and place, and under circumstances that warrant (NOT causes) a fear of safety by a reasonable person or intended to intimidate another person.

tyeo098
March 20, 2012, 05:04 PM
OC (permitless) is legal in Virginia too.

In or out, however you like it.

But like all other states, showing the gun in a threatening manner (brandishing) is a no-no.

Vector
March 20, 2012, 10:45 PM
Yes, Vector, Florida did indeed recently decriminalize the "brief open" display of a normally-concealed firearm or weapon when carried by a concealed-carry licensee. Such "brief" display must not be "in a rude or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense."
No one has defined "brief" yet, and there have been no cases yet to try it that I know of. As "smalls" stated, the intent was to pass a bill that would have permitted CC-licensees to actually carry openly, but ended up being just this by the time it got through the more liberal side of the State Legislature.

From the section of the statute which prohibits open carry:
It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.



Interesting, as that may even cover allowing someone to look at it just like you would show a friend an up close look at your watch. Needless to say that is not something I intend on doing, but it will help to alleviate worries about taking it off or putting it back on after coming out of a place it is prohibited. I also doubt any printing can be construed as a violation of the law considering the new standard quoted.

exavid
March 21, 2012, 12:35 AM
Oregon is an open carry state but there are some restrictions on open carry. If you have a CCW and choose to carry it openly then most of those restrictions don't apply. Because of that printing or accidental weapon exposure isn't a problem provided it isn't being used as a threat. This state is in a state of flux vis a vis gun laws. The state house passes more liberalized gun laws by a wide margin, which is good since the house is 50/50 but one man in the state senate has been blocking these bills. Hopefully the next election may help with this situation. The state is reasonably gun friendly but has no reciprocation or recognition with any otherl.

Redlg155
March 21, 2012, 06:44 AM
It all boils down to common sense. If you decide to carry your full size 1911 in a Blackhawk Serpa OWB holster and a tight T Shirt, then no matter what the law, you will bring unwanted scrutiny and attention. In a tactical sense, you don't want anyone, good or bad to know that you have a lethal means of defense. Just because some skinny guy boasts that he can conceal a full size 1911 doesn't mean that you can do the same trick with goodyear tire love handles.

Remove you weapon from your holster in a public place without a justifiable reason and you will most certainly be arrested. As for printing, it can happen but you should take reasonable measures to not. I've even had to squat to pick up items instead of bending over. Just remember..."printing" is a bad thing. One type can get you unwanted attention, the other type is just plain nasty!:eek:

Vector
March 22, 2012, 12:18 PM
It all boils down to common sense. If you decide to carry your full size 1911 in a Blackhawk Serpa OWB holster and a tight T Shirt, then no matter what the law, you will bring unwanted scrutiny and attention. In a tactical sense, you don't want anyone, good or bad to know that you have a lethal means of defense. Just because some skinny guy boasts that he can conceal a full size 1911 doesn't mean that you can do the same trick with goodyear tire love handles.

Remove you weapon from your holster in a public place without a justifiable reason and you will most certainly be arrested. As for printing, it can happen but you should take reasonable measures to not. I've even had to squat to pick up items instead of bending over. Just remember..."printing" is a bad thing. One type can get you unwanted attention, the other type is just plain nasty!:eek:

I suspect concerns about printing are greater down here and other very warm climates. When you wear shorts and a tee shirt it is harder to conceal than areas where more clothing is the norm. As for myself, I like to tuck in my shirt, so I use a Crossbreed supertuck, but it can still print on occasion. As a law abiding citizen I just want to make sure that I am not running afoul of the law when that happens.

brboyer
March 22, 2012, 04:41 PM
Back in 2009/2010 in Regalado v. State, Florida's Fourth District court of appeals ruled that a LEO may not 'Terry' stop an individual based solely on the possession or suspected possession of a concealed (or mostly concealed) firearm.

Their ruling was that it is not illegal to conceal a firearm if one has a Florida Concealed Weapon or Firearm License. Interesting legal analysis...I liken it to driving without a license: The courts would never allow LEO's (outside of the checkpoints) to stop a car, based on a citizen telling them the driver did not have a DL, just to make sure the driver has a DL.

Just in the last week or so Florida's Third District Court of Appeals reached a completely different conclusion.

Now we have a certified direct conflict that will go to the Florida Supreme Court for a final state-wide ruling.

Both DCA's had interesting analyses, so it will be interesting to see which way the Supremes go.

So 'printing' may or may not be legal right now depending on where you live in the state.
ETA: That's not what I meant....What I meant to say is that, printing, is definitely not illegal, but it may be legal for a LEO to stop to and question you (cuff & stuff till he figures out if you are legally 'concealing') depending on where you live.

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2012, 05:44 PM
In a tactical sense, you don't want anyone, good or bad to know that you have a lethal means of defense.

Oh gawd, not that argument again!

brboyer
March 22, 2012, 06:34 PM
...
Remove you weapon from your holster in a public place without a justifiable reason and you will most certainly be arrested.
...
Under which statute, specifically?

old fart
March 22, 2012, 07:08 PM
i live in kentucky and if your firearm prints here its ok. i don't know the statute number but on open carry.org on the kentucky side they state all gun laws and the number. i open carry now as i won't afford my permit anytime soon. thanks

Redlg155
March 22, 2012, 07:41 PM
What statute? I'm sure they could find a reason such as "brandishing a firearm" or some related charge. I keep my statute book at work, so I can't reference a charge here without aggravation. Sure, the charge doesn't stick, but you have to deal with convincing the judge or DA that you are in the right.

brboyer
March 22, 2012, 09:09 PM
What statute? I'm sure they could find a reason such as "brandishing a firearm" or some related charge. I keep my statute book at work, so I can't reference a charge here without aggravation. Sure, the charge doesn't stick, but you have to deal with convincing the judge or DA that you are in the right.

Here's a link to Florida Statutes --> http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/

"brandishing a firearm"": no such phrase in Florida statutes.

We do not have DA's in Florida.

:scrutiny:

Redlg155
March 22, 2012, 09:19 PM
Excuse me....State Attorney Office.

If you wish to test the system, the by all means remove your weapon in a public place in view of other citizens. Walmart would be a good test bed.

I don't need to do a statute search to know that you would be have some grief.

MedWheeler
March 22, 2012, 10:57 PM
brboyer writes:

Just in the last week or so Florida's Third District Court of Appeals reached a completely different conclusion.

For those interested, the case is Mackey (Anthony) vs. State of Florida. In a nutshell, the defendant was arrested (in 2010) after a patrol officer who spotted him standing alongside a fence observed the butt (referred to as the "handle" in the affidavit) of a handgun exposed and protruding from the pocket of the arrestee. The appeal was based on the idea that the officer would not have had probable cause to believe that a crime was taking place, since the mere possession of a concealed firearm in Florida is not illegal; the lack of a license to possess such would have to be suspected to warrant the stop.
The 3DCA upheld the conviction (which was actually a guilty plea) based partially on two things: the weapon was not fully concealed, which (at that time) was a violation in itself, and that the "affirmative defense" of the lack of suspicion of no-carry-license would, in effect, even strip away the authority of an officer to stop a man wearing a mask, hood, gloves, and climbing over broken glass into a clearly-broken window of a dark house at night simply because he would "have no reason to believe the subject had no right to be in the house."
In the Regalado case to which brboyer refers, the defendant was stopped by an officer after a citizen pointed him out as one he had just seen "displaying" a gun in his waistband. The citizen then leaves the encounter without identifying himself. The officer never saw the firearm until the defendant/arrestee was stopped and searched. The "affirmative defense" of the idea that the officer had no reason to suspect Regalado had no carry license, and would not have known he even had a firearm had it not been for the anonymous complaint, is what helped the defense in that case.

Vector
March 23, 2012, 09:20 PM
brboyer writes:



For those interested, the case is Mackey (Anthony) vs. State of Florida. In a nutshell, the defendant was arrested (in 2010) after a patrol officer who spotted him standing alongside a fence observed the butt (referred to as the "handle" in the affidavit) of a handgun exposed and protruding from the pocket of the arrestee. The appeal was based on the idea that the officer would not have had probable cause to believe that a crime was taking place, since the mere possession of a concealed firearm in Florida is not illegal; the lack of a license to possess such would have to be suspected to warrant the stop.
The 3DCA upheld the conviction (which was actually a guilty plea) based partially on two things: the weapon was not fully concealed, which (at that time) was a violation in itself, and that the "affirmative defense" of the lack of suspicion of no-carry-license would, in effect, even strip away the authority of an officer to stop a man wearing a mask, hood, gloves, and climbing over broken glass into a clearly-broken window of a dark house at night simply because he would "have no reason to believe the subject had no right to be in the house."
In the Regalado case to which brboyer refers, the defendant was stopped by an officer after a citizen pointed him out as one he had just seen "displaying" a gun in his waistband. The citizen then leaves the encounter without identifying himself. The officer never saw the firearm until the defendant/arrestee was stopped and searched. The "affirmative defense" of the idea that the officer had no reason to suspect Regalado had no carry license, and would not have known he even had a firearm had it not been for the anonymous complaint, is what helped the defense in that case.

Interesting

However, unless I missed it, did the guy arrested have a CCW, or are they just trying to defend him based on the possibility that he could have had a CCW, therefore no stop/search should have occurred?
`

brboyer
March 23, 2012, 09:34 PM
Interesting

However, unless I missed it, did the guy arrested have a CCW, or are they just trying to defend him based on the possibility that he could have had a CCW, therefore no stop/search should have occurred?
`

Mackey was a Felon (No CWFL), so the strategy was to get the evidence tossed because of an 'unlawful' terry stop/search.

Regalado also did not have a CWFL, same strategy.

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