Commercial Use Policy: effective later this month


PDA






Derek Zeanah
March 20, 2012, 07:47 PM
Over the past decade THR has grown into the premier online shooting community. What started as a great place for shooters to hang out and talk about our hobbies has become a great place for commercial interests to try to sell products or generate interest in new offerings. As we approach 8 million posts and 160,000 members it has become necessary to introduce our new commercial use policy to battle problems that were less of an issue to our earlier, smaller self.

The goals of this policy are as follows: Identify commercial members as such, so that their comments in threads that discuss their products (or those of their competitors) can be given an appropriate level of scrutiny.
Segregate the posts in the buy/sell/trade areas of the site. These were originally intended for private sales, but we have quite a few members who have a handful of posts on THR that contribute to their post count, but have hundreds of posts in the buy/sell/trade areas. These retail sellers should be more easily identified by users who are trying to facilitate a person-to-person sale.
Clear guidance needs to be given to members with regard to advertising. We are noticing an increasing number of new members who only join in order to promote their business. That's not why we exist, and these kinds of promotional posts do not help THR in our mission of promoting responsible gun ownership.
Provide funding to THR. This is listed last because it is the lowest priority among the goals, but it does exist as an ongoing need.

It is not our intent to discourage the contributions of members who happen to make a living from shooting-related activities; this is about correcting abuses that we see and providing guidance to members on what is and is not appropriate.

Acceptable behaviors

Things that have been allowed since the beginning of the forum and are still allowed from all members include:
The sale of personally owned firearms and accessories in the non-commercial buy/sell/trade forums. A new restriction has been implemented, though: one post thread per forum category per month. This will make it more difficult to sell an entire collection, but these sorts of sales are a rare event and the staff thinks the inconvenience is probably warranted.
Promotion of your shooting-related business via your signature line.
Contribution of your experience in threads where you have a commercial interest, provided that commercial interest is disclosed. If you make the best widget and want to say so in a thread about widgets then go ahead, but make sure you include the fact that you are something other than an unbiased but happy customer. There is nothing wrong with being proud of one's products and services, but there is quite a bit wrong with promoting your services by pretending to be a happy customer.
Starting threads that have a "marketing research" feel to them. If you are trying to determine whether there is interest in a given product with xxx features and yyy price point, then go ahead.
Please note that these are not unlimited freedoms. Abuse will certainly happen, and staff reserves the right to tell a user to either knock off a certain behavior, upgrade a membership if they wish to continue doing what they're doing, or change the behavior entirely. Expect these guidelines to change over time as we gain experience and come up with changes to cover the gaps we see.

Commercial behavior that requires a membership upgrade

The basic thinking here is that if you're using THR as an extension of your gun store counter, then you should pay for the privilege.

The most noticeable change is this one: commercial sales are no longer allowed in the traditional buy/sell/trade forums. Instead they must be posted in the commercial buy/sell/trade forums, and only commercial members with a paid subscription can post new threads in the commercial sales area. Contact Derek Zeanah for pricing.

Unacceptable behaviors

These should be self explanatory: Spam. Don't join just to post advertisements, and don't contribute meaningless comments to threads in order to get more exposure for your signature line.
Spam. If a third party site is running a promotion, say giving away an AK-47 to the person who has the most click-throughs on a proprietary link, then don't promote your link here. If you do you run the risk of being banned.
Shilling. We take a poor view of companies who have employees post here as if they were customers. This also applies to "hardcore fans" who post primarily in support of a given vendor's products.
Attacking competitors. If you want to raise legitimate issues about a company that happens to be your competitor or its products, then so be it -- standard THR policies about civil discourse apply. Joining in order to disparage a competitor is something else entirely. This is now and will continue to be considered as acting as a shill for a company.

If you enjoyed reading about "Commercial Use Policy: effective later this month" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Ultravox
March 22, 2012, 02:36 PM
Can I get a better definition of "commercial sales"?

I make 1911 grips, loading blocks and other shooting related items in my spare time and sell them on Etsy.com. This is not my primary source of income but it does fund my firearms related expenses.

I post occasional 'for sale' listings hawking my wares.

Am I a commercial seller?

Thanks.

JShirley
March 22, 2012, 03:14 PM
The new policy, as I understand it, will only allow creating one thread per exchange forum per month for non-commercial members. It would also be contrary to the intended spirit of the policy to just keep adding new items to the same thread after the initial item or items have sold.

John

reloader-1
March 22, 2012, 03:19 PM
I've only been here for 3 years, more lurking than posting...

However, I am going through that "rare event" of selling an entire collection of firearms. Maybe, the rule could be modified to 1 topic per month per category, with an exception (allowed by a mod) for special circumstances?

Derek Zeanah
March 22, 2012, 03:26 PM
If you PM a mod when those circumstances happen, we might be able to work something out.

Ultravox
March 22, 2012, 03:41 PM
The new policy, as I understand it, will only allow creating one thread per exchange forum per month for non-commercial members. It would also be contrary to the intended spirit of the policy to just keep adding new items to the same thread after the initial item or items have sold.

John

So you are saying that I am okay posting my items, as long as I follow the new policy - one post per month and don't bump the posts by adding new items. Yes?

On another topic, how will the one item per month be enforced? Is it my job to keep track of my postings and pay attention to the last time I submitted something?

Thanks.

JShirley
March 22, 2012, 03:53 PM
I'm saying, yes, if I correctly understand Derek's intent, a single thread per appropriate exchange forum a month would be fine. The system can be set to automatically limit threads per month.

You also are a contributing member: we've seen complaints from members that their post counts weren't increasing - when they've only posted in the exchange forums.

arcticap
March 22, 2012, 05:21 PM
The rational for the change seems to be somewhat inconsistent.
Once the commercial listings are in place which would help to weed the commercial listings out of the regular trading post ads, then why couldn't the trading post rules otherwise remain pretty much the same, or at least less restrictive than announced?
My suggestion would be to allow one active ad per member per trading section.
Once that one ad has been locked due to the items being sold, then the member would be allowed to post another ad in the same trading section.
Long time active members would seem to be to overly limited by this new policy.
People sell things to other members in spurts as the items become expendable, as they become available or as the member may need funds to buy other items.
I have no idea what a commercial account involves, but to go from unlimited ads to only one ad per section per month seems to be very restrictive.
I understand that members don't have a say in the matter, but I wish that the administrators would be less restrictive with the new posting regulations.
And to say that there could be exceptions granted by an administrator clouds up the issue even more.
Why not just institute the most fair and least restrictive policy for the membership to begin with?
What about allowing one active ad per member per trading section, without a one month restriction being involved at all? :rolleyes:
At least that way, if an item doesn't sell then the person can still try to sell something else that he wants to get rid of.
Another question is whether the new policy is intended to allow folks to have more than one open ad in the same trading section if the ads were placed more than 30 days apart?
If the answer is no, then members really should be allowed to update their only ad in a trading section with new items, or be allowed to lock the old ad and post a new ad that contain the new items.

Legionnaire
March 22, 2012, 06:47 PM
I agree with arcticap. I've been here nigh on since the beginning. I like the idea of moving commercial sellers to their own forum. But once that's done, I don't see the benefit to limiting non-commercial sellers to a single thread per month, especially if that's not the issue.

blarby
March 22, 2012, 07:02 PM
My only question on the one thread per month issue would relate to trades.

A lot of the smaller non-commercial members post numerous brass trades throughout the month, that don't involve exchange of cash... How would this be separated from sales ?

T Bran
March 22, 2012, 07:10 PM
Derek
I realize that the site has gotten quite large and that keeping up with it is a real chore for you and the other mods. So instead of whining and second guessing your every move I'd like to thank you for all of your efforts on our behalf.
I have only one question when will the new rules come into effect ?
So to all the MODS thanks.
T

nmGunCollector
March 22, 2012, 08:28 PM
I think this is an extraordinary fair policy. As a member of the software industry I have to say THR has been very kind to me with regard to not only allowing me to request and respond to feedback on my product but also on promoting it in the forums. So much so that I even felt like I might be on the verge of spamming even though that was not my intent and I was never called on it.

I am not clear about one thing. The policy says: "Promotion of your shooting-related business via your signature line" is acceptable. Does that include links in the .sig as I did below?

Thank you.

theautobahn
March 22, 2012, 09:40 PM
My suggestion would be to allow one active ad per member per trading section.
Once that one ad has been locked due to the items being sold, then the member would be allowed to post another ad in the same trading section.

Plus one to Arcticap. I completely understand the reasons behind the new policies and for the most part agree wholeheartedly, but I think that Arcticap's suggestion is a good one, and one that I would think would be easily set up / enforceable through the software.

Tomcat47
March 22, 2012, 10:14 PM
I think the changes will streamline the Forum...put things in perspective place!
And if one is trying to sell items, they do not have to give a spill, via threading it into an issue on a thread.

If you sell something on Ebay or Gunbroker or GunsAmerica there is a fee!

And Ebay does not allow firearms!
Also, I would chance to say one would get as much coverage on THR as a firearms broker site for firearms related items?

My 2 Cents...:cool:

ole farmerbuck
March 22, 2012, 10:57 PM
I agree with arcticap. I've been here nigh on since the beginning. I like the idea of moving commercial sellers to their own forum. But once that's done, I don't see the benefit to limiting non-commercial sellers to a single thread per month, especially if that's not the issue.
Agree

JShirley
March 23, 2012, 01:08 AM
articap's idea would still allow a business to post 50 items in a thread, and start another thread 2 days later with 50 more items if the first items had all sold. In other words, it would do nothing to stop businesses from abusing THR for free.

"Long time active members" do not magically have more stuff to sell than newer members, unless they have a business.

Mr. Pryor, your links are fine. There is a type of spammer called a sig link spammer that posts random comments in threads. The goal is to attract members to click on the sig. Actual contributing members can use a link to their business in their sig.

John

targets from us
March 23, 2012, 03:06 AM
How do we sign up for a commercial acct and how much?

bikerdoc
March 23, 2012, 08:11 AM
Sounds like a well thought out plan.
About the only thing it doesnt addreess is the person who signs up to sell one thing, never contributes post one, and is gone.

45Badger
March 23, 2012, 09:06 AM
"Long time active members" do not magically have more stuff to sell than newer members, unless they have a business.

No "magically" about it. The quantity is the cumulative result of me being a bit of a packrat and too many years of buying, trading, selling "stuff":cool: It's a calling;)

Brian Williams
March 23, 2012, 09:20 AM
How do we sign up for a commercial acct and how much?
pm Derek.

Legionnaire
March 23, 2012, 09:28 AM
Not intending to argue, just clarify.
Once the commercial listings are in place which would help to the weed commercial listings out of the regular trading post ads, then why couldn't the trading post rules otherwise remain pretty much the same, or at least less restrictive than announced?
Arcticap seems to support (as do I) the creation of a forum dedicated to commercial sales, separate from the traditional Buy/Sell/Trade forum.
articap's idea would still allow a business to post 50 items in a thread, and start another thread 2 days later with 50 more items if the first items had all sold. In other words, it would do nothing to stop businesses from abusing THR for free.
I understood that a business would have to post its wares in the new commercial sales forum. I think arcticap understood this, too. Unless I'm mistaken, I think arcticap's suggestion applied only to those occasional sellers left in the traditional forum.

I do have a couple of questions, though.

1. What about WTB (want to buy) threads? I've sold a number of items here and on other forums not in response to one of my own listings, but in response to someone else's "Want to Buy." Would that count as one's "one thread a month?"

2. As an occasional private seller, it never even occurred to me to post a link to my WTS thread in my sig line. At the moment, my only listing is for an R&D conversion cylinder in the accessories forum. You're saying it's okay to link to that in my sig line with something like the following?

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional!
For Sale: R&D Conversion Cylinder for Pietta 1858 Remington (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=650188)

Dmitri Popov
March 23, 2012, 12:57 PM
Seems like this is putting alot of undue restriction on otherwise good and loyal members. As stated earlier, members have no say in the going ons here, but at the same time, the only reason you have "commercial sellers" is because of the members. I've always thought of THR as a place where everyone was on an equal playing field, but this policy does not equate to equality. It puts a certain group above the majority, which to me, isn't very High-Road-ish.

I personally believe that Articaps policy is much fairer and serves the majority much better.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 02:34 PM
OK, queued responses. :)

However, I am going through that "rare event" of selling an entire collection of firearms. Maybe, the rule could be modified to 1 topic per month per category, with an exception (allowed by a mod) for special circumstances?
If you're a long-time member in good standing then we ought to be able to work something out, but the details haven't been worked through. On the one hand, buying a month's worth of commercial membership for < $10 isn't that onerous. On the other hand, it might be more appropriate for a private estate sale to be listed in the non-commercial sales section. Which then raises the problem that commercial estate sale companies will raise...

Policy-making isn't necessarily fun, and the rules can't be all that clean-cut here in the real world. Rest assured though, when something like this pops up the staff will discuss it amongst ourselves and come to the best solution we can.

I make 1911 grips, loading blocks and other shooting related items in my spare time and sell them on Etsy.com. This is not my primary source of income but it does fund my firearms related expenses.

I post occasional 'for sale' listings hawking my wares.

Am I a commercial seller?
You've got 9 total posts in the for sale forum, over the 15 months you've been here. Less than one percent of your posts are listed in the for sale areas of the forum. This policy isn't targeted at you. (By the way, I really like some of your grips (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=602220).)

Technically you're probably a commercial seller, but I personally wouldn't require you to register for a commercial account. After all, you've posted all of one thread to hawk your goods in the 15 months that you've been here. That's not abusive.

(I get overruled by Staff all the time though, so that's not a promise. ;) )

We've got users who post 99% of their stuff in the for sale forums. The one that pops to mind has been a member going on 7 years, has 2213 posts in the various for sale forums, but only has 18 posts on the rest of the site. That dude is clearly using THR as an extension of his gun store or as a sideline job to supplement his income. This policy is certainly targeted at him.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 02:53 PM
The rational for the change seems to be somewhat inconsistent.
Once the commercial listings are in place which would help to weed the commercial listings out of the regular trading post ads, then why couldn't the trading post rules otherwise remain pretty much the same, or at least less restrictive than announced?Because we're pretty certain commercial types would continue to sell in the non-commercial section, and just not admit that they're commercial sellers. This will work while shipping out of state, but then we'll get complaints from someone local who wanted to buy a police trade-in Glock 19 only to be told after negotiating a price that he had to fill out a 4473 because the "non-commercial seller" wasn't.

The defining factor for someone who's in a retail business seems to be that (s)he sells in enough quantity to stay in business. Yes, people buy/sell/trade here all the time (I've done it myself). Then too, gunstores take guns in on trade or consignment and post them here to get a much wider audience for the goods than they can get with regular foot traffic. We're totally cool with that too, provided the seller buys a commercial membership.

My suggestion would be to allow one active ad per member per trading section.
Once that one ad has been locked due to the items being sold, then the member would be allowed to post another ad in the same trading section.One thread per month is something we can simply plug into the software and have it handle for us. One active thread per month, on the other hand, is something that would need to be monitored and handled by real people, and staff are already pretty busy (and aren't paid.)

Long time active members would seem to be to overly limited by this new policy.You've been here 7 years so we have a feel for your posting patterns. So far 1.07% of your posts have been in the for sale areas.

How much is this policy really going to affect you? I ask as someone who has posted 1.7% of my (publicly viewable) posts in the for sale areas. It's a simple metric, but it looks like I use them more than you and this won't affect me much.

I understand that members don't have a say in the matter, but I wish that the administrators would be less restrictive with the new posting regulations.Actually, you do have a say, just not veto power. ;)

That's why we're discussing it here.

And to say that there could be exceptions granted by an administrator clouds up the issue even more.We can certainly be sticklers for the rules. Tell Ultravox that his one thread in 15 months advertising his hand-made 1911 grips means he needs to pay as much as a gun store posting 400 threads per year because to do so satisfies your sense of fairness. :neener:

Bright lines are hard to draw. Even worse: this is a new policy, and details still need to be worked out. Until we have dealt with all the ramifications that pop up over the next few years the rules need to be fluid. We've got 160,000 members -- how many per year do you think might run into personal circumstances that couldn't be anticipated by a third party?

Why not just institute the most fair and least restrictive policy for the membership to begin with? And what do you think is the most fair and least restrictive policy?

How would we enforce it?

What about allowing one active ad per member per trading section, without a one month restriction being involved at all? I don't know that it's possible for our software to do that. If it is, then that would be a reasonable alternative, until we saw abuse (like a gun store posting each for sale ad with the title "still for sale ignore thread close").
Another question is whether the new policy is intended to allow folks to have more than one open ad in the same trading section if the ads were placed more than 30 days apart?
If the answer is no, then members really should be allowed to update their only ad in a trading section with new items, or be allowed to lock the old ad and post a new ad that contain the new items.
The answer will be based on how vBulletin implements new thread post restrictions. We've never done that here so I can't say for sure, but I believe multiple open threads will work fine.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 02:55 PM
My only question on the one thread per month issue would relate to trades.

A lot of the smaller non-commercial members post numerous brass trades throughout the month, that don't involve exchange of cash... How would this be separated from sales ?
Do you need to personally create more than one thread per month for that?

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 02:59 PM
I agree with arcticap. I've been here nigh on since the beginning. I like the idea of moving commercial sellers to their own forum. But once that's done, I don't see the benefit to limiting non-commercial sellers to a single thread per month, especially if that's not the issue.
You've got more of a gripe here. Since 2004 you've put up 24 guns for sale in the handguns forum (the only one I'll look at right now.)

You posted multiple sales within one month of each other all of 4 times over ~8 years.

Is it really that onerous? If so, then 2 threads per month would totally solve your issue. is that what you're arguing for, or is it more of a "there have been no restrictions forever, so I don't like adding any now" kind of thing?

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 03:00 PM
I have only one question when will the new rules come into effect ?
I'm shooting for the end of the month.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 03:00 PM
I am not clear about one thing. The policy says: "Promotion of your shooting-related business via your signature line" is acceptable. Does that include links in the .sig as I did below?
Yep. Totally cool.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 03:02 PM
About the only thing it doesnt addreess is the person who signs up to sell one thing, never contributes post one, and is gone.
Well, yeah. But then too, one post on the forum isn't a terrible abuse, either.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 03:07 PM
No "magically" about it. The quantity is the cumulative result of me being a bit of a packrat and too many years of buying, trading, selling "stuff" It's a calling
It must be. 51% of your posts are in the Buy/Sell/Trade area of the forum. ;)

And there are lots of folks (Art is a great example) who sort of live the "buy low sell high" philosophy. If you want to turn around and sell here then that's cool. But with 52 sales in handguns, 30 in long guns, and 138 in accessories over the last 9 years, isn't that worth something?

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 03:08 PM
1. What about WTB (want to buy) threads? I've sold a number of items here and on other forums not in response to one of my own listings, but in response to someone else's "Want to Buy." Would that count as one's "one thread a month?"

2. As an occasional private seller, it never even occurred to me to post a link to my WTS thread in my sig line. At the moment, my only listing is for an R&D conversion cylinder in the accessories forum. You're saying it's okay to link to that in my sig line with something like the following?

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional!
For Sale: R&D Conversion Cylinder for Pietta 1858 Remington WTB and FS threads are tracked the same way by the software, unfortunately. We don't have that level of control.
I don't have a problem with it.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 03:10 PM
If I missed someone, PM me and I'll answer your questions here.

I'll also point this out: policy is something that all staff have a say in. Yes, I own the forum, but that doesn't mean I dictate policy. I drafted the policy above (after much pestering), staff made modifications, and they were incorporated.

I'm answering as makes sense to me. Remember though: it's quite possible for me to be outvoted. Happens all the time. :) Staff has editorial control -- I only dictate when there are clear risks (mostly legal and technical) that need to be addressed assertively.

Mot45acp
March 23, 2012, 04:16 PM
I don't buy/sell/trade much so breaking my posts down by what percentage I post there has no bearing.

What I've seen:

2005: THR is a good place for like minded individuals to get together to agree or disagree on firearm related topics.

Couple years later: the event that shall not be named

A year after that: obnoxious advertising banners

Now: Pay to Play

I understand there are operating costs. In the 6 1/2 years I have been here I can remember one oppurtunity to donate to help upgrade. I'm not a rich man, and was dead broke at the time, but managed to come up with $20 to help out and am now in a position to do more next time.

I whole heartedly support a commercial section to get vendors out of buy/sell/trade section. Couldn't the commercial sellers that abuse get reported with the little triangle button? Believe me, I would use it. Nothing bugs me more than the commercial seller bumping his ad every few days for months due to his price being too high and he refuses to lower it.

Understand I am not against commercial vendors. I look at buy/sell/trade forums like a gun show. Who goes to the gun show to look at all the new stuff? Besides jerkey, its usually to see what the average joe is selling. And sometimes the average joe has more to sell in a month then one ads worth. But sometimes i like to go to the gun store too.

Maybe start small with just adding a commercial forum? And if the vendors violate the private sale forum, give them one warning, second viloation ban them?

I know this is not a democracy, but it kinda feels like THR has lost its way and is becoming a business venture ala arf.com.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 04:39 PM
I know this is not a democracy, but it kinda feels like THR has lost its way and is becoming a business venture ala arf.com.
If I understand your complaint:

1) THR has ads now. One per page, about to bump that to two side-by side instead
2) THR won't continue to let folks use the buy/sell/trade area commercially without paying for the privilege.

So now, we're this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=161543&stc=1&d=1332530987

Believe me, I'm not trying to turn THR into something it's not. At the same time, we started with ~ 2,000 members when TFL turned off and we could run this on a spare server under my desk, and now we've got 160,000. Costs have gone up, both monetarily (hopefully addressed by the change in ads), and from a time perspective (something this commercial use policy should help with, or at least that's the hope. Commercial use is something staff has been bugging me about for almost a year now.)

I appreciate that you liked things better in the old days. Unfortunately, the sorts of things you can do with a smaller forum (like allowing the legal and political discussions as we used to do) just don't scale as you get bigger.

We're the biggest gun forum out there next to ARFCOM. I think we do a better job re: advertising, tone, and quality of discussion than they do. If you disagree then I'm sorry. Our hosting and equipment costs for the last year are approximately equal to the total amount spent in all previous years. The ads aren't going to go away, though I pray we never look like Arfcom or Calguns.

Mot45acp
March 23, 2012, 04:54 PM
I understand the point in the ads. That doesn't mean I have to like em. I understand that operational cost (along with the cost of everything else) have gone up. I'm not even saying the ads should go away.

I have no problem with charging commercial vendors. I agree with that. I think they should have their own forum. I am not saying we are like arf.com. I do see a path leading there.

I whole heartedly support a commercial section to get vendors out of buy/sell/trade section. Couldn't the commercial sellers that abuse get reported with the little triangle button? Believe me, I would use it. Nothing bugs me more than the commercial seller bumping his ad every few days for months due to his price being too high and he refuses to lower it.

Understand I am not against commercial vendors. I look at buy/sell/trade forums like a gun show. Who goes to the gun show to look at all the new stuff? Besides jerkey, its usually to see what the average joe is selling. And sometimes the average joe has more to sell in a month then one ads worth. But sometimes i like to go to the gun store too.

Maybe start small with just adding a commercial forum? And if the vendors violate the private sale forum, give them one warning, second viloation ban them?


I agree that some vendors are abusing the forums. But I think there are better ways than limiting one ad a month per forum.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 05:29 PM
I agree that some vendors are abusing the forums. But I think there are better ways than limiting one ad a month per forum.
Such as?

Mot45acp
March 23, 2012, 05:36 PM
This:
Maybe start small with just adding a commercial forum? And if the vendors violate the private sale forum, give them one warning, second viloation ban them? :

This would give members the option of going to the virtual gun show or the virtual gun store.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 05:51 PM
This would give members the option of going to the virtual gun show or the virtual gun store.
Remember: this is a cap on the number of threads you can start in the forums, not on the number of threads you participate in. Walk around and check out all the tables you like. Haggle, ask questions, etc. No problem.

But there's a limit on the number of guns you can bring in slung over your shoulder with a "for sale" sign stuck down the barrel. :)

If you want to sell a lot, then buy a table.

Mot45acp
March 23, 2012, 06:14 PM
Lol good point.

But is the idea of a vendor forum not feasible?

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 06:24 PM
But is the idea of a vendor forum not feasible?
I think I'm not understanding your question. The plan is to duplicate the current forums with a "commercial" label attached. So, yes I guess.

Mot45acp
March 23, 2012, 06:41 PM
Instead of imposing restrictions on all for the actions of few, have a forum have the buy/sell/trade that we have now and add one for paying vendors. Paying vendors would not be allowed to post for sale ads in the regular buy/sell/trade.

I know that you can disallow people from buy/sell/trade from a thread located in tech support (the guy who kept forgetting to put state in title.)

I don't want to duplicate anything...just add a commercial forum that only vendors can sell in, and prohibit them in private for sale forum.

Walkalong
March 23, 2012, 07:42 PM
This all sounds like a good start to me. I am sure tweaks will happen. I am also sure Derek and the Mods would listen to reasonable requests through PMs, especially when unusual circumstances arise. I have sold a few things here, but I do not remember if I have started two threads the same month or not. I could see where just one a month would be limiting at times. I might go a year and then get a wild hair to sell off some clutter. I have been thinking of selling some range brass to fund brass I do not find, such as .32.20, .458 Win Mag etc. AC

ole farmerbuck
March 23, 2012, 08:05 PM
This all sounds like a good start to me. I am sure tweaks will happen. I am also sure Derek and the Mods would listen to reasonable requests through PMs, especially when unusual circumstances arise. I have sold a few things here, but I do not remember if I have started two threads the same month or not. I could see where just one a month would be limiting at times. I might go a year and then get a wild hair to sell off some clutter. I have been thinking of selling some range brass to fund brass I do not find, such as .32.20, .458 Win Mag etc. AC
Why not an 'average' of 12 threads per year then? Use them all up in 1 month or take the whole year to use them.

Derek Zeanah
March 23, 2012, 08:13 PM
Why not an 'average' of 12 threads per year then? Use them all up in 1 month or take the whole year to use them.
We could probably do that as well, and remove the whole problem.

blarby
March 23, 2012, 08:49 PM
During the winter months, probably not.

During active shooting months, maybe so.

If I could keep the one thread open and running, but just modifying it, definitely not. I know this won't work for vetting out the commercial type, but I think its a legitimate concern. I'm definitely not the only one who has brass to trade more than once a month, but if thats the limit, and I had to post only once per month I would be ok with that.

I'm sure the question about trading vs selling is bound to pop up... Say I used my one post for a brass trade, and a week later got a "mega-x-barrel extender" I received in that trade... got a great trade value for it, but don't need it.... do I get to let it sit a month longer before I can offer it ?

Just a little snarky opinion here...( its floatin a little up top anyway, so I feel semi-entitled).... but given that the trade forums are actively monitored (forget to put a state in your post and its gone in 3 minutes flat....even at 3 in the AM) and the fact that you guys have a pretty good handle on whose commercial, and who isnt.... Wouldn't it be better to deal with it on a case by case basis ( which you are going to have to do more than likely anyway) than coding in blanket restrictions that are ( by your own admission) going to take years to work out ? I have ZERO problem charging commercial vendors for their postings here...servers n power ain't free...but it seems like a very trouble-prone solution that has a relatively easy solution sitting right next door.

Just a thought... If I've overstepped, lemme know.

DoubleMag
March 23, 2012, 08:57 PM
I just happened by chance to view this post by the Mods (thanks!). Here I was building a post count b4 posting anything for sale, if I could ever part with any of the 'good used junk':p I have.


I understand the need for a commercial forum. Come on guys! You're extending your shop counter virtually, here!
But my vote 4 what it's worth is, a few more posts via the casual sellers....if it goes above "XX" posts, a partial fee would apply

Best of 3 worlds 1) commercial guys pay period 2) average posters (such as myself) could post "XX" times a month HOWEVER...if above "XX" times but OBVIOUSLY not a commercial company, gunshop etc... 3)a small partial fee would be appropriate...

Just a suggestion and possibly even, a trial period i.e. 6 months or so???

What say??!!

targets from us
March 24, 2012, 03:57 AM
only thing that sucks about commercial sections is that companies like to post too many threads there as well. Will there be like a two active thread cap for the commercial section?

Legionnaire
March 24, 2012, 08:52 AM
Derek, just want to thank you for the thoughtful and informative replies. I had a couple of misunderstandings that your explanations have corrected. I like the direction you are moving, and think it will contribute to keeping THR on the high road.

One final question. May an active thread have more than one item in it? If I can list two handguns in a single thread, than I'm perfectly content. I can live with one thread a month regardless. I don't make money on guns; I just horse trade until I get my collection the way I want it. And there's never a rush on that.

Thanks for all you do.

theautobahn
March 24, 2012, 12:11 PM
I'm not very tech savvy so maybe there's a simple answer to this, but what is going to stop people from opening multiple accounts to post multiple items?

I think most of us just don't like change (and controls). Once implemented, I'm sure most of us will hardly notice a difference (even me, a VERY new member with, I believe, a 100% ratio of new threads posted in the trades section [that would be 2 total new threads]).

David Wile
March 24, 2012, 12:12 PM
Hey Derek,

I have been a member of THR since January of 2003. I became a member here when TFL closed its forum and this forum filled the void. The total of all my posts in that time is just over 550. This does not seem to be that many posts considering the length of time I have been a member.

I have posted a lot of for sale items here, and after reading this thread, I checked my statistics to see what they might show. By a quick look at the threads I started, it would seem that I have started about 50 for sale threads in my nine years with THR, and most of those have been in the last six months. That would mean that about 10% of my posts have been for sale posts, and that would seem to indicate that I am one of those folks who might be considered a commercial seller.

I am not a commercial seller, however. I use my real name and do not hesitate to show my E-Mail address as well as my home address and home phone number. I also do not use any tag lines in my posts. If you look at the 50 for sale threads I started, most of them have been for single sales of specific reloading material and ammunition.

I have been retired since 1997 and have no children or grandchildren interested in shooting and reloading, so this past August I had an auction at my house where I sold over 40 of my firearms. Having sold all these firearms, I was left with a lot of ammunition and reloading components which I no longer would be able to use, and I sold a lot of the stuff thanks to the THR selling forum. When an item sold, I did close the thread right away. Most of that stuff is now gone, but I did expect to sell a bunch of reloading equipment including progressive and single stage metallic and shotshell presses, some die sets, along with some other supporting reloading stuff.

Based on your new policy, I suppose I could make one for sale posting listing perhaps 30 items, but items seem to get "lost" in such a sale ad. That is why I tried to sell each item in separate ads and draw more specific attention to specific items.

I will abide by the rules you establish, but I certainly am not a commercial seller even though about 10% of my posts have been for sale threads. While I guess I could start a whole bunch of for sale threads before the new policy goes into practice, but the fact is that I am not ready to sell my other stuff just yet, and I am not about to hurry things up just to beat your new rules. I will simply post my stuff for sale when I am ready and in accordance with your new rules.

I really dislike the idea of simply using the number of my total posts and the percentage of for sale posts to determine my value as a member of the forum. As I noted earlier, I have been a member of THR almost from the start of the forum, and I do participate in thread discussions. I know some folks can join the forum and have a thousand posts in a matter of months. My posts are more often than not rather detailed comments on a particular subject, and I spend some amount of time and effort making them. So while I may only have 550 post in nine years of membership, I hate the idea that my statistics may be interpreted as indicating I am more of a commercial user rather than a regular member.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Sam1911
March 24, 2012, 01:22 PM
I'm not very tech savvy so maybe there's a simple answer to this, but what is going to stop people from opening multiple accounts to post multiple items?
Multiple registrations are not allowed here -- at all -- for any reason.

There are some pretty straightforward ways of determining that someone is doing that and the result is a permanant ban of all accounts.

It might work once, but it's a very bad long term strategy.

JShirley
March 24, 2012, 03:08 PM
Mr. Wile,

I know all of staff here would rather see 1 thoughtful post than 15 fluffy ones. Derek was referencing the folks selling drinks beside the pool who rarely or never even go in and and talk to the folks in the clubhouse.

John

Rule3
March 24, 2012, 03:32 PM
If I may add my .02 cents here. It may be a bit OT but kind of related.

I mentioned some time ago about the possibility of dividing up the For Sale items and the Wanted to Buy Items rather then put them all together. When looking for an item you have WTS, WTB, FS, WTT etc. I realize the forum is not a classified, just seems confusing.

It would be more organized (IMO) Kinda like an in and out box rather than a everything box. I was told that it would increase work and monitoring "exponentially" Which I do not see. The amount of posts would not change, they would just be "filed" in a more orderly way.

Regardless, I have no real issue as I do not sell or buy anything:D

I do like to look at what items sell for.

arcticap
March 24, 2012, 04:41 PM
David Wile raises an interesting point that shouldn't be lost sight of when drawing up rules that change the nature of posting classified ads. That is that while there are a multitude of reasons from A-Z to justify placing restrictions on the number of classified ads placed by the general THR membership, there are some very important reasons why the new policy should be as least restrictive as possible.
Chief among the reasons is that the classifieds promote the free trade of 2A related items which in turn fundamentally help to promote the 2A which is one of the proclaimed missions of THR.
Some might question whether free classifieds really do correlate to promoting the 2A or not, but I advocate that they do.
When shooting related items are bought, traded or sold, items are hopefully going to people and places where folks will actually use the items and enjoy them.
Thus, the more items that members can freely list and trade without the interference of unnecessary restrictions, then the more that the shooting sports and the 2A are promoted.
Sure, maybe the promotion of the 2A and the shooting sports is only a secondary concern to some of the administrators or moderators since managing and moderating the ads may mean additional work for them. In that case, then maybe there's a need for more moderators to help moderate THR.
I've never seen a help wanted sign for moderators on THR, but I have heard complaints about their workload.
If supporting the cost of the website is a concern, then maybe there should be some consideration about creating ways to generate funds for the maintenance of this forum.
But that seems to be secondary to the reasons for the policy change at hand.
Promoting the 2A, the healthy maintenance of the site, to stop the perceived abuse of the classifieds are all important concerns. How best to do that without unduly restricting the flow of goods between the membership when there's needs to be met, and how that impacts the promotion of the 2A is what needs to be weighed before instituting the policy decision.
A lot of forums have site supporters who are willing to pay a small fee in order to be rewarded with an extra privilege like being able to post more ads in the classifieds.
Whether the paying supporters are strictly commercial or simply average members could be based on the need for the funds by the website along with the extent of the perceived abuses.
At least there's a way for the site to continue its currently high level of promoting the 2A through the free trade of goods by the general membership.
I think that it promotes a full service forum that more fully recognizes and supports the different needs of the membership. And I think that the classifieds are a draw for the membership to stay and visit longer and more regularly.
The more that folks read and learn about all of the different aspects of the shooting sports, then they begin to investigate more about how the new or used equipment or guns that are available will fit into their enjoyment of them. And the more that folks enjoy an activity, the more that they tend to promote it with others.
So I truly believe that the classifieds are a win-win for everyone, including the 2A, the shooting sports, the THR forum and its membership all hand-in-hand.
In conclusion, I believe that if restricting the classifieds too much then the promotion of the 2A and some of the pleasure of visiting THR will be lessened. :)

David Wile
March 24, 2012, 04:54 PM
Hey John,

I may be one of the folks you describe as limited to drinks by the pool. I must admit I rarely go to any of the forums other than the reloading forum. I usually read the reloading threads every day and only on occasion go to the other forums. So, I guess I am pretty limited in my interests - but I have been reloading ammo for over 50 years.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Sam1911
March 24, 2012, 05:02 PM
I may be one of the folks you describe as limited to drinks by the pool.Doesn't sound like it. If you're a participating member of the discussion forums, then you're not one of the ones who only buys and sells here -- just inhabiting the trading post, with no participation with any part of the discussions that form our site's raison d'etre.

9mmepiphany
March 24, 2012, 06:33 PM
I may be one of the folks you describe as limited to drinks by the pool.
Doesn't sound like it
I agree

I've found folks who don't even introduce themselves and post 4 WTS threads when they join...there is a lot to be said for forums which restrict access to the Classifies until a threshold of post have been reached.

I've also found a member who had 37 post and 200+ threads in the Trading Post...I would call that "selling drinks beside the pool who rarely or never even go in and and talk to the folks in the clubhouse."

DoubleMag
March 24, 2012, 07:48 PM
Just charge the commercial posters :what:and let rest go as is!!!

I don't run it, but I ain't tryin' to over complicate it either...if the problem truly is commercial posters then change THEIR RULES,not average guys, who post 4 items a month, then none for 2 months, then 2 items, then don't even get on the site for 6 months! Rationalizing that as "one sale post a month"??? What!!??!!

For most people, shooting is a seasonal sport!!


Or is that just too simple??? GOOD GRIEF :banghead:!!

MountainBear
March 24, 2012, 08:51 PM
I suppose I have sold my fair share of things on this and other forums. I like guns, but I get bored easily. I often cannot afford to enhance my collection without sacrificing other parts of it. On occasion, I've also needed to sell things to take care of bills and travel expenses. I don't think that I've abused the classified ads here. Hopefully some of my posts have been helpful.
Now I feel like you are asking me to identify myself as a commercial entity just to continue as I have been. I don't like this. I am not an FFL. I do not buy/sell/trade to make money, I simply do so to enhance my own collection and enjoyment. But asking me to become a "commercial member" to post more than one thread a month seems like I'm suddenly telling the government that I'm not simply in it for fun, but rather for a profit. Perhaps that's paranoid, but it's a thought.
I think a reporting system for "commercial interests" who continue to abuse the non-commercial classified section, a minimum post count to post in the classifieds, or something like those is more appropriate.

Sorry if I've posted to much in the classifieds section to matter in this discussion.

Twmaster
March 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
As a moderator on a busy RC plane forum site I understand the issues the owners here are dealing with.

We instituted a policy where vendors must identify themselves in their sigs etc. They got one warning. Then the boot if they did not comply.

I support the notion of a fee based commercial sellers area on THR. Actually I think it's a great idea. Although it would not hurt my feelings if all commercial sales were banned.

However I also think it's a bad idea to limit those of us who like to wheel 'n deal on goodies like reloading supplies. (Yea, I know my posting stats would show this to not effect me much as proposed)

Wouldn't it be more fair to sledgehammer the individuals breaking he seller rules than shackle the rest of us with restrictive post limits? After all we have that nifty little triangle to click if we see a problematic posting.

Otherwise it just seems that everyone is getting punished for the bad deeds of a few.

Thanks for listening.

iLikeOldgunsIlikeNewGuns
March 25, 2012, 03:52 AM
I don't see that any of these changes will really affect how I use THR, except for in good ways :D

blarby
March 25, 2012, 04:27 AM
You know what ?

After this last attempted trade, I've totally changed my position.

F'em Derek, clamp 'em to death.

If they want to use THR for profit in an election year and following, make 'em pay through the nose. Maybe $500 a month for a commercial account.

I'll post 1 trade article a month, if this is whats been coming in with this influx...let 'em have it with both barrels.

I know I'm venting...and maybe thats (and what follows is) wrong...but I'm gonna post this PM exchange, with the guilty party omitted ( the important people could see the real messages if they wanted anyway) so a few folks can see what s really goin on, from a different perspective on these new "TRADERS"

This isn't a tirade about trade value... its a tirade against the mentality of the folks they ( THR ) are looking to charge for access here, and I think thats valid. Examining the mindset of the trade process helps to establish why these people are here....and that is , in my opinion, one of the root points of Dereks' argument.

_____

Originally Posted by *blarby
****BULLETS**** for ****MONEY**** ( vastly edited to protect the "innocent" ....edits are noted with lots of ****)

Just curious... ****MONEY*** is close to what I can get them for here in the store.... do you have any more of these lyin around ? Or any other *** BULLETS*** ?

__


Best bet to getem at that price, more than I paid here. I would go get them there is a HUGE shortage of reloading supplies now and will be past the election.

Thanks

__

Originally Posted by*blarby
I'd hate to be in whatever neck of the woods you are in then !

All our local shops are stocked to the gills. Hype only works in the city...us country folks got past that with the last election or ten.

Was hoping you might have something else that would eat at the ship cost, tis all.

Cheers !

___

Our local ammo mfg's just increased the ammo fee by 15% the board due to the rise and the supply and demand.

You are going to see a run like never before.


Ruger Suspends New Gun Orders

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2012/...ew-gun-orders/

__

Originally Posted by*blarby
Ok, lemme put this another way*

The hype is fairly unfounded for most, and doesn't make your supplies worth more, to me at least.

Sad that even THR members are hopping on this bandwagon too...
____



Different regions have different prices on goods, we have 60 gun shops in a 20 mile radius. But firearm are much cheaper here than most places. Plus commodity prices have been up also. 90% of what I have had listed has sold or been traded off. People are buying to sell later for profit, it will take the industy 2 years to catch up like last election. They have jumped on the buying 9 months before the election, which is has never been done.

I don't know if you know who Rock River arms are but they just had a 30% increase in parts.

__

What I do know, is that you are trying to justify price gouging, in a trade, well in advance of any actual shortage, of a commodity that isn't in short supply, based on hype (real or perceived) in an election year.

To a member here, of all places.

Thats a **** shame. We're all on the same page here- your actions are deplorable.

The fact that the rhetoric followed immediately after I simply asked if you had something to sweeten the deal back to a realistic price point, on an item you've had for some time, further proves to me that you are indeed- gouging. And that its not the first time you've offered that explanation up..... If you haven't had them for a long time -that 100 bullets- then you bought them with the intent to gouge....even worse.

I'll pass , thanks. I won't trade with you. Now, or in the future. I also won't forget this little exchange of words, for a long time.

Good luck on finding your **** item desired ***** , it won't be with any of my funds.

I'll make sure I let everyone know who asks, exactly what I think of this seller.

I'm sure your ****few**** posts here reflect your commitment to our community, I'll relay that commitment to anyone who asks.

If you intend on trading here for long, I hope the new restrictions put in place on commercial sellers puts enough dent in your profit that it seeps your gouging profits away in equal measure.

Best of luck.

-blarby

wildchild2010
March 25, 2012, 06:29 AM
Yep $500 a month commercial fee, are the awswer. It would be worth there time to take business elsewhere. If I buy something locally for $35 plus tax I sure as hell wont sell it for $20 shipped.

wildchild2010
March 25, 2012, 06:34 AM
You know what ?

After this last attempted trade, I've totally changed my position.

F'em Derek, clamp 'em to death.

If they want to use THR for profit in an election year and following, make 'em pay through the nose. Maybe $500 a month for a commercial account.

I'll post 1 trade article a month, if this is whats been coming in with this influx...let 'em have it with both barrels.

I know I'm venting...and maybe thats (and what follows is) wrong...but I'm gonna post this PM exchange, with the guilty party omitted ( the important people could see the real messages if they wanted anyway) so a few folks can see what s really goin on, from a different perspective on these new "TRADERS"

This isn't a tirade about trade value... its a tirade against the mentality of the folks they ( THR ) are looking to charge for access here, and I think thats valid. Examining the mindset of the trade process helps to establish why these people are here....and that is , in my opinion, one of the root points of Dereks' argument.

_____

Originally Posted by *blarby
****BULLETS**** for ****MONEY**** ( vastly edited to protect the "innocent" ....edits are noted with lots of ****)

Just curious... ****MONEY*** is close to what I can get them for here in the store.... do you have any more of these lyin around ? Or any other *** BULLETS*** ?

__


Best bet to getem at that price, more than I paid here. I would go get them there is a HUGE shortage of reloading supplies now and will be past the election.

Thanks

__

Originally Posted by*blarby
I'd hate to be in whatever neck of the woods you are in then !

All our local shops are stocked to the gills. Hype only works in the city...us country folks got past that with the last election or ten.

Was hoping you might have something else that would eat at the ship cost, tis all.

Cheers !

___

Our local ammo mfg's just increased the ammo fee by 15% the board due to the rise and the supply and demand.

You are going to see a run like never before.


Ruger Suspends New Gun Orders

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2012/...ew-gun-orders/

__

Originally Posted by*blarby
Ok, lemme put this another way*

The hype is fairly unfounded for most, and doesn't make your supplies worth more, to me at least.

Sad that even THR members are hopping on this bandwagon too...
____



Different regions have different prices on goods, we have 60 gun shops in a 20 mile radius. But firearm are much cheaper here than most places. Plus commodity prices have been up also. 90% of what I have had listed has sold or been traded off. People are buying to sell later for profit, it will take the industy 2 years to catch up like last election. They have jumped on the buying 9 months before the election, which is has never been done.

I don't know if you know who Rock River arms are but they just had a 30% increase in parts.

__

What I do know, is that you are trying to justify price gouging, in a trade, well in advance of any actual shortage, of a commodity that isn't in short supply, based on hype (real or perceived) in an election year.

To a member here, of all places.

Thats a **** shame. We're all on the same page here- your actions are deplorable.

The fact that the rhetoric followed immediately after I simply asked if you had something to sweeten the deal back to a realistic price point, on an item you've had for some time, further proves to me that you are indeed- gouging. And that its not the first time you've offered that explanation up..... If you haven't had them for a long time -that 100 bullets- then you bought them with the intent to gouge....even worse.

I'll pass , thanks. I won't trade with you. Now, or in the future. I also won't forget this little exchange of words, for a long time.

Good luck on finding your **** item desired ***** , it won't be with any of my funds.

I'll make sure I let everyone know who asks, exactly what I think of this seller.

I'm sure your ****few**** posts here reflect your commitment to our community, I'll relay that commitment to anyone who asks.

If you intend on trading here for long, I hope the new restrictions put in place on commercial sellers puts enough dent in your profit that it seeps your gouging profits away in equal measure.

Best of luck.

-blarby
This post pertains to me, I have nothing to shy from.

wildchild2010
March 25, 2012, 06:57 AM
Are there THR adverses here and dealers? If so where might one find them to suport them.

bds
March 25, 2012, 01:55 PM
For those in disagreement with THR change in policy, consider this in reference to how most other online forums operate.

I lurk and participate in other forums (gun and car related etc.) and see forum rules get changed from time to time, at the discretion of forum owners/moderators. It's THEIR forum and they dictate how the rules are set whether they make sense, seem fair or even in retaliation of forum member behavior/comments.

I tell you, I have seen some outlandish, dictator-like moderator behavior that essentially expressed, "If you don't like my forum rules, leave." Over time, this sort of behavior leads to censorship of forum comments and thread discussions mimic lines from movies where dictators punish/kill off anyone who disagreed with them. In contrast, I see THR forum doing the opposite in promoting free speech with forum rules to maintain civility.

I applaud THR staff, administrators and moderators for taking the "High Road" in dealing with certain members who apparently use THR for personal materialistic gains without meaningful forum participation. I consider the Buy/Sell/Trade category of THR as a membership "benefit/privilege" and not a "right" to sell just because you joined. If you don't like THR forum rule changes, there are plenty of online websites where one can sell firearms and gun related items (Gunbroker, GunsAmerica, Ebay, Amazon etc.) and pay seller/commercial vendor fees like everyone else.

If you think what THR staff/moderators are doing is "wrong", just check out some other gun forums for Buy/Sell/Trade rules and commercial vendors. Forums that require members to have "X" number of posts before being able to Buy/Sell/Trade simply operate with new members "adhering" to forum rules (I think this allows the new members who want to Buy/Sell/Trade their true character to surface by their comments - and may that's why such a rule exists ;)). If new members want to Buy/Sell/Trade without participating in forum threads, guess what, they can't Buy/Sell/Trade. Simple. Well, I guess they all came to THR just to do that apparently. ;)

Remember folks, running an online forum the size of THR takes A LOT of hard work and staff to ensure members don't experience technical difficulties or violate forum rules. Most of us will never see all the "behind the scenes" work that's involved to keep THR operating smoothly and perhaps it's time they got rewarded for their hard work. If it means charging a fair usage fee for selling items like most other commercial websites, I think that's more than fair as they are still not forcing "commercial" members to participate in forum discussions like some other gun forums.

wildchild2010
March 25, 2012, 02:47 PM
For those in disagreement with THR change in policy, consider this in reference to how most other online forums operate.

I lurk and participate in other forums (gun and car related etc.) and see forum rules get changed from time to time, at the discretion of forum owners/moderators. It's THEIR forum and they dictate how the rules are set whether they make sense, seem fair or even in retaliation of forum member behavior/comments.

I tell you, I have seen some outlandish, dictator-like moderator behavior that essentially expressed, "If you don't like my forum rules, leave." Over time, this sort of behavior leads to censorship of forum comments and thread discussions mimic lines from movies where dictators punish/kill off anyone who disagreed with them. In contrast, I see THR forum doing the opposite in promoting free speech with forum rules to maintain civility.

I applaud THR staff, administrators and moderators for taking the "High Road" in dealing with certain members who apparently use THR for personal materialistic gains without meaningful forum participation. I consider the Buy/Sell/Trade category of THR as a membership "benefit/privilege" and not a "right" to sell just because you joined. If you don't like THR forum rule changes, there are plenty of online websites where one can sell firearms and gun related items (Gunbroker, GunsAmerica, Ebay, Amazon etc.) and pay seller/commercial vendor fees like everyone else.

If you think what THR staff/moderators are doing is "wrong", just check out some other gun forums for Buy/Sell/Trade rules and commercial vendors. Forums that require members to have "X" number of posts before being able to Buy/Sell/Trade simply operate with new members "adhering" to forum rules (I think this allows the new members who want to Buy/Sell/Trade their true character to surface by their comments - and may that's why such a rule exists ;)). If new members want to Buy/Sell/Trade without participating in forum threads, guess what, they can't Buy/Sell/Trade. Simple. Well, I guess they all came to THR just to do that apparently. ;)

Remember folks, running an online forum the size of THR takes A LOT of hard work and staff to ensure members don't experience technical difficulties or violate forum rules. Most of us will never see all the "behind the scenes" work that's involved to keep THR operating smoothly and perhaps it's time they got rewarded for their hard work. If it means charging a fair usage fee for selling items like most other commercial websites, I think that's more than fair as they are still not forcing "commercial" members to participate in forum discussions like some other gun forums.
Make it easy just have a 5% donation up to a certain $ amount of ALL items sold. Being a .org and charging fees then the 1099 at the end of the year will most likely come into effect ( oh THR sending out invoices)as the businesses are paying a fee and will be wanting to write that off in taxes at the end of the year. Plus the IRS will be wanting their copy of the 1099. And when paying a fee for a year at a time, now comes a legal contract. My understanding of an .org is a Non-Profit or, I don't know if that is just the website or the business is registered under a .org like a Church. Charging fees now would make it a business for profit. If it was me I would be consulting with my accountants and my law firm for answers.

wildchild2010
March 25, 2012, 03:20 PM
Would it be worth putting this at the top of the for sale section, to get more exposer?

blarby
March 25, 2012, 03:21 PM
Make it easy

That solution sounds anything but !

nmGunCollector
March 25, 2012, 04:33 PM
Yep. Totally cool.
Thanks. I think your rules are generous and very reasonable.

Nullcone
March 25, 2012, 05:44 PM
Has anyone considered requiring those who have an FFL and post items for sale (C&R excepted, maybe) to be a "commercial" member?

RhinoDefense
March 25, 2012, 06:09 PM
Why should I have to pay money just because I'm an FFL when I have never listed any ads on this forum?

This policy is targeting guys like yankee2500 who sells a lot of brass here, never posts outside the classifieds, and makes money off the exposure THR provides and adds no value to the forum.

parker51
March 25, 2012, 06:31 PM
Derek,

First I would like to thank you for providing this web site for those of us that enjoy shooting, hunting and reloading. I have been a member for just about three years now and I am very pleased with the way this site operates. I have sold a few items here, but have purchased many more since joining. Most of the items I purchased were from the Reloading board, but did buy a couple of rifles and a scope from individuals in the other categories. I personally buy a lot of once fired brass for reloading and would really hate to see some of the non-commercial sellers in the Reloading area leave THR to start selling at other sites due to the proposed one post a month rule. I may be wrong but I doubt seriously that most of the folks selling used brass are doing so on a commercial basis, but only doing so when they get lucky enough to scrounge up enough to make posting worth a trip to the post office. Anyhow, I suppose I'm being a bit selfish, I just hate to see some of these folks leave THR to sell their brass on other sites.

Twmaster
March 25, 2012, 07:03 PM
That was well said and I agree completely Parker51. And I think I've done some brass deals with you too!

wildchild2010
March 25, 2012, 10:10 PM
Why should I have to pay money just because I'm an FFL when I have never listed any ads on this forum?

This policy is targeting guys like yankee2500 who sells a lot of brass here, never posts outside the classifieds, and makes money off the exposure THR provides and adds no value to the forum.
They also may risk lossing many, that help pay the bills.

DoubleMag
March 25, 2012, 10:13 PM
If it goes into effect as planned fellas , and, you move to sell occasional items, please post up where you went so some of us can still find you!!!!

FROM MOD'S ORIGINAL POST:

Commercial behavior that requires a membership upgrade

The basic thinking here is that if you're using THR as an extension of your gun store counter, then you should pay for the privilege.

Change it for them then leave everything else a-LONE

R.W.Dale
March 25, 2012, 10:46 PM
As a freeloader and only occasional classifieds user I really don't have a dog in this fight. But if one listing a month seems draconian to many might I suggest bumping that limit to two or three. This would likely eliminate any change to 99% of the casual users and still yet make it nigh impossible to steal much benefit as a buisness.

posted via mobile device.

ole farmerbuck
March 25, 2012, 11:19 PM
R W Dale, I think you might be on to something.

Maverick223
March 26, 2012, 10:31 AM
WTB and FS threads are tracked the same way by the software, unfortunately. We don't have that level of control.What about the addition of a new unrestricted (but monitored to prevent abuse) sub-forum dedicated to WTB threads. This would seemingly solve the entire issue, as well as making searching a bit easier.

Additionally, I would like to second the idea of 12/yr. rather than 1/mo., as I tend to BST items in spurts (though I am uncertain that I have ever participated in two transactions in a given month). OTOH, if such rare occasion did arise, and I were inclined to ask for undeserved special treatment, I'm willing to bet that you folks would make an exception, so I'm not particularly concerned about it one way or another.

:)

blarby
March 26, 2012, 11:29 AM
Even with 1/month or 12/year, there's still going to be the problem of editing an existing post, and just playing the BTT ! game.

Not to mention, if some vendor ALWAYS has the same stock to offer ( lets say, for instance, Holsters...or 3 types of common brass) there is nothing currently in the system that prevents the BTT ! Nonsense other than Mods constantly watching the channels.

Which it seems like they don't have the ability to do, given the influx of threads and discussion that need to be monitored in the discussion areas.

Any of the potential solutions to enforcement is still going to require a lot of moderator time going forward... Which begs the question again whether moderating a ruleset as people - not code- would be easier. ( I know which one would be easier on Derek)

In this line, It would also seem that as the site grows in members and content that the ratio of chiefs to indians has changed on orders of magnitude from where we were even last year. I'm not sure that there are a LOT of people that the existing staff could trust in this capacity...but it might be time to try and find a few, even if only to monitor trade threads at first.

JShirley
March 26, 2012, 01:40 PM
There is a limit to how long a poster can edit a post.

No one has suggested that merely possessing an FFL requires purchasing a commercial membership to be a member.

To everyone suggesting we just have a separate forum for commercial members, Derek said in his initial ppst that would happen.

blarby
March 26, 2012, 02:25 PM
I agree Shirley, on the length of edit time. I should know better !

In the second example, would you need to archive a thread to prevent it being BTT ?

Maverick223
March 26, 2012, 02:28 PM
To everyone suggesting we just have a separate forum for commercial members, Derek said in his initial ppst that would happen.If this was in part directed towards my above comment, I was suggesting a new sub-forum in the non-commercial/existing Buy, Sell, Trade forum solely dedicated to "want to buy" threads.

:)

blarby
March 26, 2012, 02:53 PM
Ok, I have another question.

Pertains to this :

Contribution of your experience in threads where you have a commercial interest, provided that commercial interest is disclosed. If you make the best widget and want to say so in a thread about widgets then go ahead, but make sure you include the fact that you are something other than an unbiased but happy customer. There is nothing wrong with being proud of one's products and services, but there is quite a bit wrong with promoting your services by pretending to be a happy customer.

And this :

Shilling. We take a poor view of companies who have employees post here as if they were customers. This also applies to "hardcore fans" who post primarily in support of a given vendor's products.

In this context :

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8060965#post8060965

I know that in this instance, a line could be towed about "happy customer" vs "paid blogger"... but where does the distinction lie specifically ?

Is this or is this not just the same as selling a hard and durable product ?

There is definitely, at face value, some question about opening "discussion" threads specifically directed to generate revenue, right ?


Thoughts from someone qualified to judge ?

9mmepiphany
March 26, 2012, 02:55 PM
I think folks are missing the point of the limits in the Trading Post.

It isn't some much a matter of limiting members, but to set a threshold to distinguish between the hobbyist and someone deriving an income from the membership without contributing to the community.

Vendors and on-line merchants don't have a problem paying a fee to put their products on display...it is part of the cost of doing business. The limit to be set is a wake-up call for folks who don't see themselves as vendors or commercial members...maybe because it isn't their only job...to realize that there really is a cost to doing business

9mmepiphany
March 26, 2012, 03:03 PM
I know that in this instance, a line could be towed about "happy customer" vs "paid blogger"... but where does the distinction lie specifically ?

Is this or is this not just the same as selling a hard and durable product ?

There is definitely, at face value, some question about opening "discussion" threads specifically directed to generate revenue, right ?
Likely the best response to this is similar to that stated by SCOUS Justice Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964)

blarby
March 26, 2012, 03:17 PM
I know what it is when "I" see it. The question becomes am I the only one, and what shall be done....... Under the new, AND old system ( although the old system is probably less relevant....)

David Wile
March 26, 2012, 04:36 PM
Hey Derek,

As I noted my earlier post:

1. I have been a member of this forum since Jan 2003 when it was first started after TFL closed.

2. In the 9 years I have been a member, I only have 550 posts, and most of those were in the reloading forum.

3. About 50 of my posts were ads for items I was selling, but some of those 50 were repeat ads for the same items.

I have a few points for you to concider in your proposed rule to limit folks like myself to one ad per month per forum. All of my ads in my 9 years were in the reloading sales forum, and your new policy will affect me as well as others like myself. While my total posts are not as many as many other folks with a lot less time, I am not in the business of selling reloading equipment. I am definitely one of your average reloader/shooters who simply has excess things to sell at times.

Given your new policy, I am sure I will have a bunch of things to sell in the future that will not be allowed. The things I will be selling will not be items I bought just for resale, as in operating a business. They will be items I bought perhaps many years ago and no longer have a need for them. They are items that other forum members may be interested in buying and saving money, and that seems to be what the current for sale forums are all about.

That is also why many folks are members of this forum and why many folks spend so much of their time on this forum site rather than other forum sites. If you initiate your proposed policy of one ad per month, I and many other folks will be forced to list our items for sale on other forums. That means folks like myself will then be spending more time elsewhere rather than here. It also means that folks who are looking to buy will be spending more time elsewhere rather than here. I would think that is probably not what you want to accomplish.

I have posted items for sale on other forums, but I spend most of my time on this forum, and I have found I can get my stuff sold using this forum. That also means I spend a lot less time on other forums. I spent a lot of time on TFL until it closed down, and then I and many others quickly came to THR. When TFL stared back up, I was glad to hear of it and went back to participating there also. However, from my limited experience in these matters, it would appear to me that TFL has never returned to the prominence it once enjoyed before it shut down. I still support TFL, but it seems to me that THR has far more activity than TFL. I know THR has most of my activity.

Accordingly, I would think it would not be beneficial for THR to implement a new policy that will drive many of its users to spend more time on other competitor forums. It just does not make good business sense to me. I can see where you would want to get some payback from regular commercial users, but I think the proposed change for the average Joe member like myself is not what you really want to accomplish. I think the unintended consequences of going to one ad per month for the general membership will not be in the best business interest of the forum.

Yes, I know I do not own any part of the forum and have no right in the decision making process. As a long standing member, however, I think I may have something of value for the decision makers to consider in thier decision making process. If you do implement this new one ad per month policy, I will place ads elsewhere, and I will spend more time elsewhere. However, that does not mean I will quit THR. THR is a valuable asset to the interests of my lifestyle, and I will continue to spend time here. I am simply suggesting that implementation of said policy will cause me and other folks both selling and buying to spend less time here and more time elsewhere.

I hope my comments on this new policy are received in the spirit of friendship and appreciation for THR.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

JShirley
March 27, 2012, 07:10 AM
Larby,

Derek was addressing "happy customers" who are concealing an interest in a company they're endorsing.

John

45Badger
March 27, 2012, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45Badger
No "magically" about it. The quantity is the cumulative result of me being a bit of a packrat and too many years of buying, trading, selling "stuff" It's a calling:cool:


Originally Posted by Derek
It must be. 51% of your posts are in the Buy/Sell/Trade area of the forum.

And there are lots of folks (Art is a great example) who sort of live the "buy low sell high" philosophy. If you want to turn around and sell here then that's cool. But with 52 sales in handguns, 30 in long guns, and 138 in accessories over the last 9 years, isn't that worth something?

Your logic is astounding, but fails to take my purchases into account:D. And (I think) assumes that I sold the items to members here vs. any of the half dozen other sites I meander through.

I spend less time here (more on local state forums) than in the past, so the I'm generally indifferent to the new rules. I come looking for specific information to questions, and can pretty quickly find what I need, so less time spent having long conversations/threads.

You seem to be trying to monetize the site. Have at it. It's your ball, so you're game.

DoubleMag
March 27, 2012, 09:40 AM
I think folks are missing the point of the limits in the Trading Post.

I ain't missing anything. This was originally to limit COMMERCIAL FOLK, and now has bloomed (MISSION CREEP) into the "Average Joe-shooter"

It isn't some much a matter of limiting members, but to set a threshold to distinguish between the hobbyist and someone deriving an income from the membership without contributing to the community.

YES this DOES limit members; hence the terms used (uhhum)"limited to one post" Can't be revarnished into wood it's plastic.All shooting hobbyists raise your right hand and repeat...'I promise not to sell bullets I bought in the past which now have went up in price,and make $3 after shipping' What??


Change/charge for commercial people, put a POST LIMIT on before you can post up sales..... leave rest alone.


Is this a government agency? Got to make it complicated before anything simple can be done? Simple problems beg simple solutions!!

blarby
March 27, 2012, 01:07 PM
Precisely, John.

Some of them do it really well, some of them don't. Sometimes they mix it up.

Derek Zeanah
March 27, 2012, 01:20 PM
Given your new policy, I am sure I will have a bunch of things to sell in the future that will not be allowed. The things I will be selling will not be items I bought just for resale, as in operating a business. They will be items I bought perhaps many years ago and no longer have a need for them. They are items that other forum members may be interested in buying and saving money, and that seems to be what the current for sale forums are all about.
The problem is that you do tend to post in batches. You've started 50 threads in the handloading trading post, and 34 of those were in the last 3 months. That would burn through a 12 posts per year allotment quite quickly.

Unless you restructured them. You put up 6 different die sets in a 2 day period, and they would all have fit well under a "multiple dies for sale" sort of thread instead.

The problem is that we have to put a threshold somewhere. Someone putting up a new for sale post every three days certainly looks like a retailer, and any rules we put up are going to catch you because of your selling patterns. I'm not sure of a better set of guidelines we can draw.

Our commercial memberships are going to be cheap (right now it's looking like they'll be less than 10% of what Sniper's Hide charges, for instance), but I can guarantee you that there will be dozens of retail shops that will try and stay under the radar to save a few bucks if the automated rules are such that they can get away with it. Eventually they'll get caught, we'll have to deal with them, it'll be a big emotional back and forth, they'll flip us the virtual finger, get banned, and try to sneak back in a couple of days later. This happens way too much, and from an administrative perspective I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

At some point transaction costs have to come into play. We don't even require real names here -- we certainly can't (and won't) try and establish whether a poster has an FFL. Even if they did, there are still places like Optics Planet (who specifically requested a commercial membership so they could stick to our rules -- says a lot about them) who do lots of business in gun-related sales. Just not firearms.

The 12 posts per year idea looks like it will work better than a 1 per month rule, so that will probably be incorporated into the commercial use policy (again, assuming Staff agree.)

Change/charge for commercial people, put a POST LIMIT on before you can post up sales..... leave rest alone.
Two issues:
How do you ID a commercial seller that doesn't volunteer that info?
Forums that have a minimum post requirement to access the for sale forums get a whole lot of people posting "+1" and "I agree" types of posts in order to drive up post counts. We don't want that here.

angus6
March 27, 2012, 01:20 PM
Post limits are a waste of time IMO as usually it's 25/50 post . Kind of easy to do if all your wanting to do is get so you can gain privileges. Just looked in the last 42 months I've posted 14 adds so it wont effect me to much but really think 1 add a month is a bit to tight.
Any thought to giving a a couple more adds to say those that contribute a few bucks to the running of the site but aren't a commercial seller

ETA:
Forums that have a minimum post requirement to access the for sale forums get a whole lot of people posting "+1" and "I agree" types of posts in order to drive up post counts. We don't want that here.

Some boards that wont work on , I believe Enos forum is like that

Also some one said something about extra work for the mods, how big a deal can it be ? forget to post a location and the post is gone asap so the forum is patrolled fairly heavy it seems

Derek Zeanah
March 27, 2012, 01:29 PM
Any thought to giving a a couple more adds to say those that contribute a few bucks to the running of the site but aren't a commercial seller
That's certainly a possibility. As are tiered commercial memberships.

blarby
March 27, 2012, 01:43 PM
We've only got 4 more days till the end of the month....

You guys anywhere near a consensus on what this is gonna look/feel like yet ?


How do you ID a commercial seller that doesn't volunteer that info?

I think you guys could do a bang up job of it.... look at your distinctions so far.

likely the best response to this is similar to that stated by SCOUS Justice Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964)

Seems appropriate here :)

angus6
March 27, 2012, 01:45 PM
What about post like Mr. Rogers here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=515171 ? looks to be flat out advertising

I've not seen a place to donate or contribute a few few $$ here, I do on a couple of forums I vist as I feel I get far more enjoyment out of them then a $10/$20 in a year . I'm sure there are a bunch that feel the same

ole farmerbuck
March 27, 2012, 01:55 PM
The part I and a lot of others wont like about 12/12 is that I look over the for sale adds a lot. I dont buy a whole bunch of stuff but there will probably be a lot less stuff for sale now. Midwayusa should profit from it though! :)

ole farmerbuck
March 27, 2012, 09:11 PM
What about post like Mr. Rogers here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=515171 ? looks to be flat out advertising

I've not seen a place to donate or contribute a few few $$ here, I do on a couple of forums I vist as I feel I get far more enjoyment out of them then a $10/$20 in a year . I'm sure there are a bunch that feel the same
I'd be happy to donate a few bucks. Give us a mailing address Derek and see just how many non vendors volunteer to send a few.

RCArms.com
March 27, 2012, 11:41 PM
I'd be happy to donate a few bucks. Give us a mailing address Derek and see just how many non vendors volunteer to send a few.
Another board I sponsor tried this and it was a fiasco of sorts. I donated nearly $500 to them and received nothing, not even a thank you. That will be the last time I donate over and above my sponsorship fees and I have gotten to the point where I really fail to see the value of that. There are a handfull of paying sponsors there (commercial members) and hundreds of other Non-Paying commercial FFL-01 holders that do not declare their status that use the service for free.

There is no perfect solution that will please everyone.

DoubleMag
March 28, 2012, 12:02 AM
Quote:
Change/charge for commercial people, put a POST LIMIT on before you can post up sales..... leave rest alone.
Two issues:

How do you ID a commercial seller that doesn't volunteer that info?

SIMPLE!!! You don't!! Can't!! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A GOV AGENCY:what:....the average joe shooter (citizen) will comply at 1st, the big timer (commercial guy) WON'T, a new committee is formed, and the average joe will be restricted further, no one around anymore, raise rates, more people leave, etc


but heres a temp/partial solution;
All shooting hobbyists raise your right hand and repeat...:evil:

crazy-mp
March 28, 2012, 01:27 AM
If they want to use THR for profit in an election year and following, make 'em pay through the nose. Maybe $500 a month for a commercial account.

Really??? Those rates are higher than Snipers Hide, I could buy a banner on rimfire central's home page for that price.

You do know that most dealer sell new gun for around 10% over cost (unless you are stupid and pay full MSRP) so that means that I have to sell 5,000.00 dollars worth of new guns a month to advertise a few group buys and a few consignment guns on here? I am not Cabela's or Bass Pro, I am a small FFL dealer that has a 300 square foot shop in the basement of a 65 year old building.

I would also like to know how I am going to make this huge profit your referring to when most of the distributors are out of stock on everything people want. Ruger is not taking orders, most AR manufacturers are giving lead times of 3-6 months for rifles, Kel-Tec PMR 30's are selling on gunbroker for $600.00+ and before I got my FFL I have 320.00 for mine with 2 boxes of .22 mag ammo.

I don't have a problem paying a reasonable fee to sell on here, I paid $56.00 per table at the last gun show, I need to pay my gunbroker bill that's around 40.00 bucks for this month. Advertising on here would be a better value than a newspaper because here the majority of the members are interested in guns.*



*For those newer members a couple of years ago there were people joining the forum and there may still be some that only joined because they were required to do so for school projects they were trying to see things through the "other" peoples eyes.

angus6
March 28, 2012, 02:07 AM
So how many $56 tables and for how many days ?

blarby
March 28, 2012, 05:12 PM
Boy, my interest in this area has caused me some grief and lost sleep...and not only me. You catch some weird stuff when you throw the net out lookin for truth here...sometimes you should just throw it back in the ocean, and let be.... This happens to me often I've noticed , when I drift out of the reloading forum....

Anyways,


I believe, again, that THR mods and Sysads have the means and ability to very quickly ascertain who is, and who is not, commercial, in the majority of cases.

In these few cases where electronic identification isn't practical or returns results that are inconclusive, a quick search of user history combined with a healthy dose of good judgement should resolve those queries to the satisfaction of any member present.

I'm sure that discussion process would involve more than one voice, and would be very fair. If you have doubt in any of the above, I think you should consider all of the other hard choices that are made by them every day....the result of those decisions are why THR is so popular today.

I admit, I've not always been happy with some of the judgement results of the admin staff.... but the basis behind those decisions is always rational and logically based...even when my thought processes may not be regarding those decisions.

I think the actual hard part is going to fall into the pricing structure, and who and what goes where. Not every commercial user is ALL COMMERCE, ALL DAY...there are a lot of semi-commercial users who fall somewhere between THR Gun-Counter #47- and Hobbyist Member. You might refer to them as "Commercial Lite"

Really??? Those rates are higher than Snipers Hide, I could buy a banner on rimfire central's home page for that price.

I have no doubt that that is true. Your income derived from association with THR might not warrant such an investment. Undoubtedly some users' income from the association might.

Your operation, as you described it to me, would probably fall on the lighter end of commercial use... and if the above holds true, no, I can't see the justification for charging you $500 for access.

Some of the users that fall on the other end of the spectrum might pay a considerable amount to keep their business flowing with THR, their revenue from this relationship being that great.

I don't believe its going to be a one-size-fits-all category that works.

I do believe that classifying each member based on their post count is a good start, but not the defining process in and of itself...as has been mentioned and debated. All that post count would really do, in my opinion, would be a barometer of effect that leads the Sysads to the right people, to start the right conversations. Any of them that they miss, I'm sure that the membership will point out to them....

With that said, I'm pretty sure my brass trades aren't going to end up in the commercial section anyway. If they do, maybe I'm wrong ( :eek: :uhoh: :scrutiny: :eek: ) about my relationship with THR in that department....even though I make zero dollars on the trade, I still benefit...that might be worth some money.

As I really don't have an iron in the fire other than that.... I'm a shut up now and go back to my troll hole in reloading.

Much to everyones relief, I'm certain :D

RCArms.com
March 28, 2012, 06:23 PM
Yep $500 a month commercial fee, are the awswer. It would be worth there time to take business elsewhere. If I buy something locally for $35 plus tax I sure as hell wont sell it for $20 shipped.
Because the Trader was available to all THR members in the past despite any commercial connections (Yes, I checked before I made my first post), I used it and made a few sales over the last couple years. However, the THR has grown as the OP stated and there are issues that the owers feel need to be addressed.

My sales volume here is so light there is no way that there would be enough revenue to cover any additional selling expenses resulting from a Fee to utilize the trader board. That being noted, I've taken a proactive approach to the problem and I've closed all my trader related threads and simply will list elsewhere.

I do enjoy the forum boards and the conversation and exchange of information and will continue to participate there.

Don

angus6
March 28, 2012, 06:42 PM
RCArms.com it wouldn't be a big surprise if you have to change your name and drop your signature line as that is still advertising your business. I know a couple of the other places I vist are that way. These forums have turned into a business these day where they used to be a hobby and a place to visit like minded people learned that years ago on a couple bike forums

RCArms.com
March 28, 2012, 07:49 PM
RCArms.com it wouldn't be a big surprise if you have to change your name and drop your signature line as that is still advertising your business. I know a couple of the other places I vist are that way. These forums have turned into a business these day where they used to be a hobby and a place to visit like minded people learned that years ago on a couple bike forums
Should the THR owners decide to take that road, that is their priviledge as this is their house. I'm sure they would let me know if they will require a user name change.

Don

dprice3844444
March 28, 2012, 08:00 PM
i'm just trying to clear some personal stuff that's been laying around for years,of no use to me anymore,tired of tripping over it,and using it to pay bills.

crazy-mp
March 28, 2012, 11:22 PM
So how many $56 tables and for how many days ?

2 tables that were completely full of rifles, a couple hand guns a couple shotguns, 4 suppressed rifles and one suppressed hand gun. For 2 days but how is that a fair comparison? Every gun show I have ever been to I had to pay to get in to look around.

The people who run gun shows are not doing it to because they want more guns to be sold in a certain town, they are doing it to make money, THR has never been about the bottom line it has been a place for people to learn and ask questions to fellow shooters, gun enthusiast and more knowledgeable collectors.

MyGreenGuns
March 29, 2012, 06:32 AM
Identify commercial members as such, so that their comments in threads that discuss their products (or those of their competitors) can be given an appropriate level of scrutiny.

How would this appear to a regular user? Under your name? Or just in the sig?

JShirley
March 29, 2012, 06:54 AM
Angus, if you're going to interpret what staff says, maybe you should read it first. Derek clearly stated that a sig line link was perfectly acceptable, so long as the member wasn't posting noncontributory posts just to give their sig more exposure.

Buford57
April 4, 2012, 04:50 PM
Are multiple items in one thread permitted in the non-commercial section?

JShirley
April 4, 2012, 05:24 PM
Yes.

Legionnaire
April 8, 2012, 01:27 PM
Over on PAFOA.org, they cut down on a lot of chatter simpy by making it impossible to post replies to trading post threads. All contact between buyers and sellers is via email or pm. Also a 72 hour no-bump rule. Probably doesn't get the volume that THR does, but it seems to work well. Maybe separate into commercial and non-commercial sellers here, and institute similar no-reply, 72-hour bump rules and not limit number of threads? Just continuing to think about different ways to skin the cat ...

theautobahn
April 13, 2012, 04:51 PM
Are multiple items in one thread permitted in the non-commercial section?
Yes.

I've pretty much decided that I'm ok with whatever you guys decide, but just to clarify the above- I can list one shotgun (for example), then add a comment down the road with a second shotgun for sale, even if the first hasn't sold and it's within the same month? I'm completely good to go with that and withdraw all prior objections, but wouldn't that sort of create a loophole for the sneaky comm posters?

ole farmerbuck
April 13, 2012, 10:32 PM
Maybe there should be a small commision for everyone who sells and let people post all they want. If they dont pay, then they dont post anymore.

JShirley
April 14, 2012, 06:36 AM
Okay, let me clarify as well.

If you listed, for example, two shotguns and a rifle for sale in one thread, that would be fine. Listing a rifle for sale, and once that had sold, adding the two shotguns to the same thread, would not be okay.

theautobahn
April 15, 2012, 12:05 PM
If you listed, for example, two shotguns and a rifle for sale in one thread, that would be fine. Listing a rifle for sale, and once that had sold, adding the two shotguns to the same thread, would not be okay.

That makes more sense. :)

Whatever the mods decide is fine with me, they do all the work, so whatever makes life easier for them (you)...

When does this start (or has it already)?

blarby
June 5, 2012, 04:46 PM
So, just out of curiosity....what happened ? Looked like we had a split for two or three days, and it disappeared after that ?

Derek Zeanah
June 5, 2012, 06:27 PM
Well, creating the new forums caused some issues with the caching here, but we didn't identify it further. I'll try and kick it through again this week or this weekend.

blarby
June 7, 2012, 03:09 AM
Coolio !

Any consensus yet as to who goes where, and what the criteria is ?

Derek Zeanah
October 13, 2012, 06:27 PM
Heh.

Took a while, but the changes have been implemented. Now we'll devote effort to clarifying, tweaking, and enforcing the policy. I'm closing this one for now. Expect a formal statement of the commercial policy to go up within a day.

If you enjoyed reading about "Commercial Use Policy: effective later this month" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!