"Holding a gun may make you think others are too"


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ctrs
March 21, 2012, 02:02 AM
What does everyone think of this article?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/context-for-fla-shooting-study-finds-holding-gun-makes-you-likely-to-think-others-have-guns/2012/03/20/gIQANpfDQS_story.html

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fatcat4620
March 21, 2012, 02:12 AM
I think that guy had a bad case of I want to be a cop syndrome. He will do time for it and he might deserve it.
When I had seen your title I thought that when I hold my snub nose and look at the moon is there anyone else who is also holding a snub looking at the moon as well?

BSA1
March 21, 2012, 09:16 AM
Ah Grasshopper,

The evil object (i.e. gun) causes a persons bad behavior. The individual is not responsible for his or her bad actions.

Buck Kramer
March 21, 2012, 09:23 AM
I think that guy had a bad case of I want to be a cop syndrome.

Agreed. This is one of those stories I hate to hear not only because an innocent person died, but it makes CCWers look like a bunch of racist wannabe cops.

SimplyChad
March 21, 2012, 09:31 AM
Well I always think everybody is armed. Keeps me looking for a threat, as long as Im looking in my mind I think I wont be surprised. But as for the whole carring a gun makes you think others are also carring. IDK. I think people who carry may be more vigilant in some aspects to see if someone is carring ie looking for the tale-tale signs of touching the gun under the clothes, fanny packs, large over shirts. Stuff like that.

pockets
March 21, 2012, 09:38 AM
I don't think everyone is armed, just because I am. There are a whole lot more folks living in Ohio than just the CHL holders.
I believe that George Zimmerman saw whatever he wanted to see. Records show that he has called the police 46 times in the past year (between 1/11 and 2/12). 46 times! Talk about the boy who cried wolf! He probably has a Bat-Phone, cape, and a utility belt.
The 911 recordings of this shooting are fairly telling. There are so many sad parts to this story.
But perhaps Zimmerman will become the poster-child for WHAT NOT TO DO.
IMO: He needs to become 'the defendant'.

.

HOOfan_1
March 21, 2012, 09:41 AM
There have been studies that show, studies usually come up with results which the studiers want. ;)

"A study shows" is never enough evidence for me. It is too easy to fudge results and there are too many agenda driven people.

JFrame
March 21, 2012, 09:49 AM
My wife took a film-making course 30+ years ago. On the first day of class, a loud shot rang out, and amid the commotion, a person ran out of the classroom.

The teacher called the class to order, and asked everyone if the fleeing person had been holding a handgun. About half the class said they saw the handgun.

The teacher had filmed the entire incident and replayed it for the class. The fleeing person had been armed with a banana.

Obviously, no one in that classroom had a firearm. And chances are, being a classroom full of prospective film-makers at Boston College, none of them even owned a gun.

Studies like the one being foisted by AP are a joke -- and it's a shame that someone's actually getting paid to conduct them.


.

khegglie
March 21, 2012, 10:28 AM
when you first take karate; everyone else on the street is a potential black belt.

fatcat4620
March 21, 2012, 10:46 AM
Another way to think about it. In my book if you have an arm then you are armed (and most people have two arms).

HEAVY METAL 1
March 21, 2012, 10:50 AM
Having performed research in a university myself and reading this report it is amusing to see the results being used to push an obvious agenda. Anyone versed in the scientific method knows that the parameters of a study need to be carefully controlled (there is lttle mention of that) and most importantly the study needs to be replicated by others and then if similar results are obtained there is only a certain degree of probability that the premise is correct. It is unfortunate that most people just make broad assumptions that because "a study was performed that showed..." that what it purports is fact.

Crtical thinking skills are sorely lacking in our society.

Heck, through my own research I found that statistics are wrong 13.5% of the time. (think about it, it'll come to ya, ha,ha!)

JFrame
March 21, 2012, 11:08 AM
Heck, through my own research I found that statistics are wrong 13.5% of the time. (think about it, it'll come to ya, ha,ha!)


...I won't believe that until you show me at least three corresponding studies...






;) :D

.

Carl N. Brown
March 21, 2012, 11:34 AM
"Context for Fla. shooting? Study finds holding gun makes you likely to think others have guns", Associated Press, 20 Mar 2012.
In a telephone interview, Brockmole stressed he had no inside information on the Feb. 26 shooting of 17-year-old Martin, who was shot and killed in a gated community in Sanford, a suburb of Orlando.
Uh, no Zimmerman did not claim Martin had a gun too, so this is just noise. Zimmerman was on the phone to 911 during the incident and ignored 911 advice that police had been dispatched and that he should not pursue Martin who was accused only of acting suspicious. Martin's girl friend was talking to Martin as he walked:
Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for?' and the man said, 'What are you doing here?' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing and somebody push Trayvon, because the headset just fell.
Trayvon Martin (unarmed) inflicted two head wounds on the neighborhood watch leader George Zimmerman. (ADDED: Zimmerman was not part of the Neighborhood Watch program, which advises against patrolling your neighbor armed and advises observe-and-report only.) Zimmerman shot once and killed Martin. ABC News:
Police said Zimmerman, who was found bleeding from his nose and the back of his head, told authorities he yelled out for help before shooting Martin.
Zimmerman was on the ground and Martin was standing over him: after the pleading one shot was fired. Some witnesses reverse the identity of who was standing, who was down, and claimed two shots were fired, so this case is a mess. The "new study" is irrelevant to understanding this case and is just more clamor and noisy distraction.

jbrown50
March 21, 2012, 11:42 AM
That article is another Washington Post smoke screen designed to blame the gun for the reckless actions of irrespnsible people.

As mentioned by previous posters Zimmerman has a bad case of the cop wannabes. The police gave him the benefit of the doubt because they knew him. He should had simply watched Martin from his vehicle and let uniformed police officers confront him.

What if Martin had been a young looking plain clothed cop. Zimmerman would be dead, hospitalized or in jail right now.

When introducing people to firearms and CCW for the first time I always emphasize very strongly to them that you are not a cop. Carrying a gun is for the protection of your life and, depending upon the situation, other innocent life. It's not your job to investigate crimes nor to confront people for just looking suspicious.

xfyrfiter
March 21, 2012, 12:20 PM
Stupid article, written by even more stupid person, jmho, these people will only see what they want. I absolutely don't think anyone else is carrying just because i am. In fact I carry most of the time and even my wife doesn't know unless she asks. Most of the ccl holders I know do a good job of concealment.

chrt396
March 21, 2012, 06:21 PM
If you read only what the media says about this case, it appears that he had a bad case of policeman envy. He put himself in to a position of having to use his firearm by provoking the kid. Apparantly the kid was too much for him to handle..and then used his firearm to thwart off any future attacks. No matter how this case comes out...it seems obvious that he put himself into a position that he should have no business being in. Call the police and let them do their job. I'm sure there are a lot of details we don't know..but the media will have a field day with this one. There are so many CWP classes that do NOT stress one VERY important rule. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PERMIT, DOES NOT GIVE AUTHORIZATION TO THROW YOURSELF IN TO A SITUATION THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE IN IF YOU WERE NOT CARRYING. Over in the Tampa area..in the low income area close to down town, I wouldn't be caught dead in that area at night..by myself. If I decided to go there cuz' I felt empowered due to a side arm...then I am basically LOOKINg for a problem.

Neverwinter
March 21, 2012, 07:15 PM
That study is trivial and non-novel to anyone familiar with the psychological concept of priming.

Sent from Tapatalk

hso
March 21, 2012, 07:53 PM
No one knows

Pretty much sums it up right there.

A single study is not a body of evidence drawing any conclusions except that further study is warranted. Reporters that don't understand how science actually works try to draw hard conclusions from research that poses a question and concludes that more study is needed to find out if an interesting result is important or not. It does us all a disservice.

Put another way, "Don't think of pink elephants!".

Ringolevio
March 21, 2012, 08:37 PM
chrt396:
There are so many CWP classes that do NOT stress one VERY important rule. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PERMIT, DOES NOT GIVE AUTHORIZATION TO THROW YOURSELF IN TO A SITUATION THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE IN IF YOU WERE NOT CARRYING.

Hear, hear!
This is one more reason why "In the Gravest Extreme" should be required reading for every Concealed Carry class, because Massad Ayoob states this in no uncertain terms. It was certainly stressed by the instructors in the classes I've taken!

Carl N. Brown
March 21, 2012, 08:48 PM
^^ Tennessee handgun permit class (required to get a permit) stresses that same point.

I know a lot of the claims about this incident have been proven false (the most outrageous claim was that Zimmerman fired once, Martin called out for help, and Zimmerman fired a second time after Martin was down. Only one shot was fired after Zimmerman called out for help after Martin hit him twice drawing blood).

However, pursuing and challenging someone on the street for appearing to be suspicious, after 911 has advised you to step down officers are on the way to investigate, was totally unnecessary.

forestdavegump
March 22, 2012, 12:35 AM
Crtical thinking skills are sorely lacking in our society. I have to agree with you there HM1

Agsalaska
March 22, 2012, 01:12 AM
Critical thinking does not exist in the media.


The only thing I am relatively sure of in this situation is an older(28) white male saw a young black male walking down the street. He called the police. They told him not to follow him and he did anyway. After that it is anyone's guess.


And an edit:According to his family he is hispanic.

ObsidianOne
March 22, 2012, 02:09 AM
Sounds like ignorance at it's finest to me.

RTR_RTR
March 22, 2012, 03:59 AM
How many of you trashing the study actually searched for it and read it?

Here's where you can read it - http://www.nd.edu/~jbrockm1/WittBrockmole_inPress_JEPHPP.pdf

The study is actually very well designed, and, despite having a small sample size, produces repeated (the study actually consists of 5 separate experiments) and consistent statistically significant results showing that holding a gun leads one to be more likely to perceive an individual holding an object as holding a gun.

THIS IS NOT SURPRISING

What is somewhat surprising is that the presence of a gun in the room, brought to the participant's attention very clearly, did not produce any difference in perception of object held on the screen. So clearly there's a cognitive effect produced by actually being in control of the object that produces a response bias greatly exceeding any cognitive effect produced by an object just being on ones mind.

And while I personally generally find media interpretation of primary literature to be deplorable, the interpretation here is really not that bad (despite the purpose of it being written clearly seems to be to fit an agenda). They do, however, leave out the finding that holding a shoe increased response bias to perceiving a shoe was the object being held.

It would not be fair to extrapolate the results of this study to apply to carrying (not holding) a firearm because that is a situation that is not touched on in any of the experiments. I don't believe the article intentionally suggests this though - only in one sentence in the article is poor language choice used to represent the findings of the study ("being armed" rather than "holding a gun" being the variable in question).

Please think critically. Reacting against a study without reading it because it doesn't fit your agenda doesn't jive well with calling out the journalist for framing the study to fit his agenda.

Edit: The argument that a study with a new finding shouldn't be taken as gospel is a good one, but not when it is said with intention strictly to discount the study's findings. Yes, there should be larger scale follow up studies, potentially in more realistic situations (although that is difficult with this topic). That doesn't mean this study's findings bring no (or even minimal) value to the table

Loosedhorse
March 22, 2012, 08:53 AM
Study finds holding gun makes you likely to think others have gunsThe study was one in which subjects were given a toy gun (in a study setting). A logical assumption for the participant at that point would be, "Oh: this study is about guns." When they were then shown a fleeting picture, they were more likely to think there was a gun in the picture when there was not.

My goodness--researchers have discovered the power of suggestion! I wonder if this new discovery will have any effect on psychology...or advertising! :rolleyes: ;)

The "reporter" then misapplies the study results, assuming that anyone who regularly carries a gun--as opposed to persons who were just instructed by a researcher to handle a toy gun--are more likely to see a gun that's not there because of their habitual act of carrying a gun. But the study says nothing about people who routinely, legally CCW.

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."
William Tecumseh Sherman

Hugo
March 22, 2012, 11:01 AM
There should be more caveats mentioned about the people "holding a gun" are likely doing so for the first time ever, have no self-defense training at all, and mistakenly believe lots of myths.

"Crtical thinking skills are sorely lacking in our society. I have to agree with you there HM1"

I Agree too. A few books by Carl Sagan (and the show Cosmos) should be in every High School reading list. Teachers please spread the word or just suggest to your students "If you want to be smart, read some books by Carl Sagan." He was so good at disproving BS anywhere.

chrt396
March 23, 2012, 02:57 PM
You may very well have heard it in classes. The class I took was a joke..in my eyes. The point he kept stressing was..."I was in fear of my life!" That is NOT the message we should hear. I educated myself by reading the "oh so easy to decipher laws" in Florida and a few articles that discuss this very issue.

Maybe we'll never know what really happened that night..but how does THIS scenario sound?

Zimmerman..on the way to run an errand one night..sees a person walking down the street in the rain. It appears as if the person is checking out homes and curiously looking around. There had been several break-ins and burglaries over the past few weeks and months. Zimmerman calls 911 to report suspicious activity. The person is then alerted to the fact that he/she is being watched. They turn towards Zimmerman and walk closer to the vehicle. The identification is made that it is a black male...hoodie or not. They then turn and go the other way. Person gets nervous and starts trotting away or walking faster. Zimmerman..sensing that there is probable cause that the person is up to no good, decides to follow him to keep him close where he can notify police where the person is when they arrive. Somehow..he gets too close to person..and there is an exchange of either physical or verbal assaults. Person decides to take on Zimmerman..he is kind of a pudgy hispanic guy afterall...and all of a sudden the tables are turned and the black male is the aggresssor. Zimmerman pulls side arm and fires. Next..we have the entire population coming down on this guy.

The reason I wrote this dribble..is that there are mant scenarios that can be played out here. It's almost like one of those "whodunnit" theater shows! Let the investigators do their jobs!

wannabeagunsmith
March 23, 2012, 03:03 PM
You may very well have heard it in classes. The class I took was a joke..in my eyes. The point he kept stressing was..."I was in fear of my life!" That is NOT the message we should hear. I educated myself by reading the "oh so easy to decipher laws" in Florida and a few articles that discuss this very issue.

Maybe we'll never know what really happened that night..but how does THIS scenario sound?

Zimmerman..on the way to run an errand one night..sees a person walking down the street in the rain. It appears as if the person is checking out homes and curiously looking around. There had been several break-ins and burglaries over the past few weeks and months. Zimmerman calls 911 to report suspicious activity. The person is then alerted to the fact that he/she is being watched. They turn towards Zimmerman and walk closer to the vehicle. The identification is made that it is a black male...hoodie or not. They then turn and go the other way. Person gets nervous and starts trotting away or walking faster. Zimmerman..sensing that there is probable cause that the person is up to no good, decides to follow him to keep him close where he can notify police where the person is when they arrive. Somehow..he gets too close to person..and there is an exchange of either physical or verbal assaults. Person decides to take on Zimmerman..he is kind of a pudgy hispanic guy afterall...and all of a sudden the tables are turned and the black male is the aggresssor. Zimmerman pulls side arm and fires. Next..we have the entire population coming down on this guy.

The reason I wrote this dribble..is that there are mant scenarios that can be played out here. It's almost like one of those "whodunnit" theater shows! Let the investigators do their jobs!

I agree. Do they really think that this "kid" was just gunned down for no reason whatsoever? I think there is more than what meets the eye.

Loosedhorse
March 23, 2012, 03:51 PM
Do they really think that this "kid" was just gunned down for no reason whatsoever?Well, it depends on who "they" are. But, no, not "no reason": I guarantee you there are people who honestly think he was approached, hassled, and shot primarily because of his race.

And that can be argued (at this stage) much more persuasively than this "handled gun research" nonsense.

Panzercat
March 23, 2012, 04:27 PM
No one knows what led a Florida neighborhood watch captain to shoot Trayvon Martin, a teenager carrying no weapon.

BS. It seems pretty darn clear--
Zimmerman had a previous charge in 2005 of battery on a police officer while interfering with the arrest of a friend. He subsequently entered a pretrial diversion program, which is not considered a conviction on his criminal record.[38] Zimmerman had previously been accused of domestic violence by an ex-girlfriend, who had filed for a restraining order against him.[39]

The linked article has that 'grasping at straws in order to reach a predetermined conclusion' feel to it. Occum's Razor following, this isn't about concealment paranoia, this is about a man that shouldn't have had a gun in the first place. A man with a criminal record.

But sure, lets puke out any old conclusion that can be made to fit the agenda.

Ringolevio
March 24, 2012, 11:58 AM
chrt396:
Zimmerman..on the way to run an errand one night..sees a person walking down the street in the rain. It appears as if the person is checking out homes and curiously looking around. There had been several break-ins and burglaries over the past few weeks and months. Zimmerman calls 911 to report suspicious activity. The person is then alerted to the fact that he/she is being watched. They turn towards Zimmerman and walk closer to the vehicle. The identification is made that it is a black male...hoodie or not. They then turn and go the other way. Person gets nervous and starts trotting away or walking faster. Zimmerman..sensing that there is probable cause that the person is up to no good, decides to follow him to keep him close where he can notify police where the person is when they arrive.

"Probable cause"?? Are you serious? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't understand how "probable cause" enters into it, when Zimmerman is not a commissioned LEO, on- or off-duty, and is not personally threatened by the "suspect's" actions.

Furthermore, is Zimmerman in a uniform, or in any kind of marked vehicle? Does he identify himself as the "neighborhood watch captain"? Is there any presumption of authority to be perceived by the "suspect", or is the "suspect" presumably minding his own business and finds himself being followed/stalked/challenged in the dark by some unidentified (and possibly hostile-appearing) stranger?

As to the "study" cited, I can see it being used to try to justify unfortunate incidents in which cops shoot a guy reaching for his phone or his wallet. And the study may have some validity there. But the "victim" in such incidents has to bear some culpability, because the presumption of authority dictates that when a cop gives an order (anything from "move along" to "keep your hands where I can see them"), your failure to comply is at your own peril.

Vern Humphrey
March 24, 2012, 12:41 PM
In the study, volunteers who held a toy gun and glimpsed fleeting images of people holding an object were biased toward thinking the object was a gun.
Now there's a scientific, double-blind, peer reviewed "study!":rolleyes:

627PCFan
March 24, 2012, 05:02 PM
I chimmed in on this article(on the website) to remind everyone that you assume everyone is armed, its not "having a gun on me" specific. This did not go over well. Some peoples choice to assess threat levels just sucks or does flat out non-existent.

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