Sawed off Mosin Nagant project


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Wolfsbane
March 21, 2012, 02:14 AM
I read a interesting article in the latest Back Woodsman Magazine. Vol 33 #1 pg 17.

The author built a sawed off Mosin Nagant. He lopped off the barrel and stock behind the pistol grip in the style of the obrez pistols, that are found in the hands of rebels in Russia today and probably the old Soviet Union.

In the article the author states he cuts the barrel down to the US legal limit of 16". In the modifications to the stock, he cuts it down to the pistol grip. He's claiming it has a length that's within the legal limit for rifles. I think he said 26 inches. In pictures in the article he had the rear stock cut off just at the point it started widening at the pistol grip.

He installed a Remington 700 front sight and is claiming a sight radius of about 12 inches. He also installed a bi-pod.

He's calling it a poor man's XP-100.

It looks like a fun project. Is it a legal way to avoid paying the ATF the $200 for a SBR?

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cyclopsshooter
March 21, 2012, 02:31 AM
Are you suggesting that I open a paper magazine? Where does one get these paper magazines? If there is a web article I will be very interested :)

InfamousLegend
March 21, 2012, 02:32 AM
I know nothing about the legal aspect but practicality is very low. The recoil without a buttstock for support will hurt your wrist a lot and shooting any more than 10 or 15 rounds will be uncomfortable. Also aiming down the sights is going to be very difficult with whatever is left from your sawed off stock more than likely hitting you in the face. From the looks of it they are intended for hip shooting at close ranges in confined spaces, and even then they have a slow rate of fire.

juk
March 21, 2012, 03:07 AM
As a bench blaster, I don't see why it wouldn't be kinda fun. Put a scout mount on there and mount a pistol scope and you pretty much would have a cheap XP-100 type firearm. Just make sure it is legal before you go hacking away.

Wolfsbane
March 21, 2012, 03:11 AM
Are you suggesting that I open a paper magazine? Where does one get these paper magazines? If there is a web article I will be very interested :)
I read them at Barnes & Noble rather than actually buy them. That way I can waste my money on guns and fly fishing and tying equipment.

cyclopsshooter
March 21, 2012, 03:13 AM
Aren't they going outa business?

LoonWulf
March 21, 2012, 03:44 AM
With the amount of recoil the x54r generates i dont think id do it legal or not.
My 7-30 contender is plenty enough fun for me, and the loads use a bullet 50grns lighter, and 20grns less powder.

Wolfsbane
March 21, 2012, 04:48 AM
I know nothing about the legal aspect but practicality is very low. The recoil without a buttstock for support will hurt your wrist a lot and shooting any more than 10 or 15 rounds will be uncomfortable. Also aiming down the sights is going to be very difficult with whatever is left from your sawed off stock more than likely hitting you in the face. From the looks of it they are intended for hip shooting at close ranges in confined spaces, and even then they have a slow rate of fire.
Well the guy is using a bi-pod and if you left a little more stock, you could probably shoulder it.

Besides, where are you going to find anything cheaper than a MN for building a sawed off rifle to freak out your non-gun friends?

But-but-but!? Isn't that illegal?

45bthompson
March 21, 2012, 05:06 AM
I think it would be cool. But then again I usually think impractical things are cool.

LAK
March 21, 2012, 05:11 AM
Better wear good ear protection - and maybe sunglasses - when shooting it.

LoonWulf
March 21, 2012, 05:17 AM
I hadnt thought about the blast yet LOL. My nagant shortened to 23"s seems disproportionately loud and nasty for its loading.

InfamousLegend
March 21, 2012, 07:02 AM
Depending on how you build it, it could be a very fun little gun and cheap at that. Just be careful and I expect it to get much louder with a shortened barrel.

Sam1911
March 21, 2012, 08:34 AM
The primary question seemed to be about the LEGALITY of this.

Federally, as long as the barrel is not shorter than 16" (measured with a rod down the bore, resting against the closed bolt), and the overall length of the weapon is not shorter than 26" it is still a "Title I" rifle, same as it is in normal, un-ruined, configuration.

To go shorter than EITHER of those measurements requires the tax stamp and registration as an NFA Title II Short Barreled Rifle.

Jeff H
March 21, 2012, 08:40 AM
To go shorter than EITHER of those measurements requires the tax stamp and registration as an NFA Title II Short Barreled Rifle.

But, without the buttstock, how is it still considered a rifle?

Sam1911
March 21, 2012, 08:45 AM
Because it was designed to be fired from the shoulder. The ATF's interpretation of the law is that (with some interesting exceptions) if it was constructed as a rifle, is IS a rifle.

The only time it isn't a Title I rifle is if you convert it into a concealable "Weapon Made From a Rifle" (Short Barreled Rifle) which simply means it is short enough to be NFA Title II-regulated.

Short barreled rifles and shotguns may or may not be fitted with butt stocks. Handguns and pistol-shotgun "Any Other Weapons" may not have buttstocks installed.

That can lead to some absurdity.

IE: If you have an AR-15 rifle, you may have a buttstock installed, or you may shoot it without the butt stock if you wish, so long as it is still over 26" long without. The barrel can never be shorter than 16" and the OAL can never be shorter than 26" without first registering it as an SBR.

If you have an AR-15 "pistol" it may have a short barrel or as long a barrel as you want, but may not have a buttstock attached. HOWEVER, you can make it into a rifle if you want, by adding a long barrel and a buttstock -- but not a buttstock without the long barrel. (Just last year the ATF reversed themselves and declared that you are allowed to make it back into a pistol if you want. Before that, putting it back together as a pistol was technically a felony!)

If you have either an AR-15 rifle or an AR-15 pistol and "manufacture" a Title II SBR on a Form 1 from it, you may have a buttstock, or no, and a long or short barrel with or without.

Got that? Well, how 'bout this?

If you have a shotgun, it may have a barrel as short as 18", and a full buttstock. If you take the buttstock off and install a pistol-only grip, that's fine, so long as the OAL is still 26".

If you buy a pistol-grip-only shotgun (or a bare receiver), that is NOT a "shotgun," but an "other firearm." You can install a barrel as short as you want -- but the OAL can't be less than 26"!

If you register that PGO shotgun as a Title II "Any Other Weapon" (smoothbore handgun) you can install any length barrel you like, but can not ever install a buttstock.

If you register either shotgun as a Title II "Short Barreled Shotgun" you can install any length barrel and a buttstock -- or not -- as you like.

Perfectly clear? ;)

Buck Kramer
March 21, 2012, 09:58 AM
We need a public service announcement "Stop bubba-ing Mosins"

Sam1911
March 21, 2012, 10:06 AM
We need a public service announcement "Stop bubba-ing Mosins"

We go 'round and 'round the mil-surp-slaughter -vs.- my-property-to-bubbafy-if-I-want argument every few months. That argument gets pretty heated.

Probably don't need to have it again, here.

SimplyChad
March 21, 2012, 10:31 AM
Because it was designed to be fired from the shoulder. The ATF's interpretation of the law is that (with some interesting exceptions) if it was constructed as a rifle, is IS a rifle.

The only time it isn't a Title I rifle is if you convert it into a concealable "Weapon Made From a Rifle" (Short Barreled Rifle) which simply means it is short enough to be NFA Title II-regulated.

Short barreled rifles and shotguns may or may not be fitted with butt stocks. Handguns and pistol-shotgun "Any Other Weapons" may not have buttstocks installed.

That can lead to some absurdity.

IE: If you have an AR-15 rifle, you may have a buttstock installed, or you may shoot it without the butt stock if you wish, so long as it is still over 26" long without. The barrel can never be shorter than 16" and the OAL can never be shorter than 26" without first registering it as an SBR.

If you have an AR-15 "pistol" it may have a short barrel or as long a barrel as you want, but may not have a buttstock attached. HOWEVER, you can make it into a rifle if you want, by adding a long barrel and a buttstock -- but not a buttstock without the long barrel. (Just last year the ATF reversed themselves and declared that you are allowed to make it back into a pistol if you want. Before that, putting it back together as a pistol was technically a felony!)

If you have either an AR-15 rifle or an AR-15 pistol and "manufacture" a Title II SBR on a Form 1 from it, you may have a buttstock, or no, and a long or short barrel with or without.

Got that? Well, how 'bout this?

If you have a shotgun, it may have a barrel as short as 18", and a full buttstock. If you take the buttstock off and install a pistol-only grip, that's fine, so long as the OAL is still 26".

If you buy a pistol-grip-only shotgun (or a bare receiver), that is NOT a "shotgun," but an "other firearm." You can install a barrel as short as you want -- but the OAL can't be less than 26"!

If you register that PGO shotgun as a Title II "Any Other Weapon" (smoothbore handgun) you can install any length barrel you like, but can not ever install a buttstock.

If you register either shotgun as a Title II "Short Barreled Shotgun" you can install any length barrel and a buttstock -- or not -- as you like.

Perfectly clear? ;)
Thanks sam now I have a headache. I wonder if anyone truely understands everything about the ATFE

Ditchtiger
March 21, 2012, 10:56 AM
Because it was designed to be fired from the shoulder. The ATF's interpretation of the law is that (with some interesting exceptions) if it was constructed as a rifle, is IS a rifle.

The only time it isn't a Title I rifle is if you convert it into a concealable "Weapon Made From a Rifle" (Short Barreled Rifle) which simply means it is short enough to be NFA Title II-regulated.

Short barreled rifles and shotguns may or may not be fitted with butt stocks. Handguns and pistol-shotgun "Any Other Weapons" may not have buttstocks installed.

That can lead to some absurdity.

IE: If you have an AR-15 rifle, you may have a buttstock installed, or you may shoot it without the butt stock if you wish, so long as it is still over 26" long without. The barrel can never be shorter than 16" and the OAL can never be shorter than 26" without first registering it as an SBR.

If you have an AR-15 "pistol" it may have a short barrel or as long a barrel as you want, but may not have a buttstock attached. HOWEVER, you can make it into a rifle if you want, by adding a long barrel and a buttstock -- but not a buttstock without the long barrel. (Just last year the ATF reversed themselves and declared that you are allowed to make it back into a pistol if you want. Before that, putting it back together as a pistol was technically a felony!)

If you have either an AR-15 rifle or an AR-15 pistol and "manufacture" a Title II SBR on a Form 1 from it, you may have a buttstock, or no, and a long or short barrel with or without.

Got that? Well, how 'bout this?

If you have a shotgun, it may have a barrel as short as 18", and a full buttstock. If you take the buttstock off and install a pistol-only grip, that's fine, so long as the OAL is still 26".

If you buy a pistol-grip-only shotgun (or a bare receiver), that is NOT a "shotgun," but an "other firearm." You can install a barrel as short as you want -- but the OAL can't be less than 26"!

If you register that PGO shotgun as a Title II "Any Other Weapon" (smoothbore handgun) you can install any length barrel you like, but can not ever install a buttstock.

If you register either shotgun as a Title II "Short Barreled Shotgun" you can install any length barrel and a buttstock -- or not -- as you like.

Perfectly clear? ;)
And if you enjoyed this check out, Abbot and Costello - Who's on First

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M
http://www.psu.edu/dept/inart10_110/inart10/whos.html

LoonWulf
March 22, 2012, 06:32 PM
Difference being A&C arnt likely to put you in jail if Who ends up on second and I dont know pitches.

Cosmoline
March 22, 2012, 07:27 PM
Backwoodsman has some good articles and some articles that are a little out there. Not sure about this one. The real Obrez were very short "whippit" style hideout pieces for kneecappings and intimidation, first by partisans then by mobsters. If you want to recreate one, just get it set up as a trust gun and approved.

The hybrid 16" barrel piece is neither fish nor fowl. It sure isn't concealable, historical or particularly useful.

ahil925
March 22, 2012, 10:27 PM
I know the article you speak of. I wonder how well it'd do as a long barreled hunting "handgun". With an actual scope and some reduce-power reloads I'm sure that it'd be a much handier tool then a full length rifle. Assuming that it's actually accurate.

Edit: Just a thought, but iirc Legally there's nothing stopping one from making an under folding portion to the stub of the stock, correct? If done right, it should allow for the franken-Mosin to be even shorter, since the ATF measures OAL from the maximum extended length of a folding stock, right?

Wolfsbane
March 23, 2012, 02:50 AM
This might be the perfect thing to use with one of those 7.62x25 to 7.63x54R chamber inserts from Sportman's Guide.

Your wrist, elbow and shoulder will probably thank you.

And someone could probably figure out how to make a nifty insert for using those 25 round Sterling side loader magazines in it.

http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/762-x-25-rifle-chamber-insert.aspx?a=650814

http://simage1.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/1/180308_ts.jpg

C'Thulhu
March 23, 2012, 02:11 PM
Personally, if SBRs were legal in MI, that's what I'd do. Always wanted an Oberz.

texas chase
March 23, 2012, 10:56 PM
Personally, I think that sounds like a horrible idea. Impractical and not fun to shoot. No thanks

hang fire
March 23, 2012, 11:13 PM
He lopped off the barrel and stock behind the pistol grip

Just exactly what stock did he lop off at the pistols grip? The only military MN rifle with a pistol grip stock "I" know of is the Finn Model 39.

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