This is an outrage!


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Slimjim
February 13, 2004, 11:09 PM
Ok, i was at the gunshow, and i just bought a new gun, so now i need some .223, so i goto the ammo stand and ask if the guy has any .223, he says yea, are you 21? Im like no, im 18, you only have to be 21 for pistol ammo, like he should know. WELL! Seems the state police wrote them a letter stating that:

".223 And 7.62x39 is now PISTOL AMMO" And you must be 21 to buy it.

I cant believe this. This made me mad, When the :cuss: did this come about. Now i cant even buy ammo that i have been buyin for 2 years for my gun because im not old enough now. I dont get it, how'd this go under the radar. :cuss: :cuss:

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mrapathy2000
February 13, 2004, 11:29 PM
since some rocket scientist a made pistol ar15 variant and also made a pistol that shoots 7.62x39.

is it stupid absolutely. no where near as many of them made as 22lr pistols.

the 7.62x39 pistol got some cheap imported ammo banned as well.

Dorian
February 13, 2004, 11:31 PM
:confused:

Are they gonna use things like that ar-15 pistol and the G-3 pistol to rationalize that? :barf:

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 13, 2004, 11:33 PM
Well, if that is the threshold, then you are in deep doo-doo. The TC Contender is offered in many rifle calibers and it is a handgun.

cordex
February 13, 2004, 11:34 PM
Dorian,
Well ... yeah.

That's how Fed.gov classified AP rifle ammo as AP pistol ammo. Nothing new under the sun.

kbr80
February 13, 2004, 11:44 PM
Yes it is an out rage, but be cautious of how outraged you get. The thread may be closed down

Kcustom45
February 13, 2004, 11:47 PM
A long time ago I was reading a light blue pamphlet about the youth gun laws or something to that affect. It stated that no ammo suitable for use ONLY in a handgun is to be sold to a person under 21 years old. Well, it seems to me that .233 7.62x39 and even 45ACP are not for use only in a handgun, but what do I know. This could be an Indiana State thing and not pertain to your situation.

Stand_Watie
February 14, 2004, 12:02 AM
I have seen single shot long barreled pistols that fired 30.06 cartridges as much as 25 years ago.

Ironbarr
February 14, 2004, 12:05 AM
Frankly that's outrageous.

Some smartypants' way to control the "environment", huh?

Now all they need do is create a handgun for 20mm and all long gun calibers below and the 18-20 group is OOL. Tell me, just how do you handle a .223/7.62x39 handgun? Two men and a boy to control it? Particularly if it's a cheap "pre"-production piece just meant to ban the young ones amongst us.

The ballistics, what about ballistics in short barrels - maybe a Ned Buntine, huh?

Hell, they probably made six for test - declared the ammo Pistol, and locked all six up for posterity.

Why do I feel my scivvies twisting???

:banghead: :cuss: :barf: :eek: ....


phew... got that over with.

BTW: Is .410 shottie ammo also restricted to 21? I understand there are some "handguns" in that.

Michigander
February 14, 2004, 12:11 AM
Makes me wonder...

At 18 years old, one is legally considered an adult, responsible for his actions. Yet they make a requirement that one has to be 21 to purchase such-n-such ammo, firearms, etc. What's to stop them from increasing the age to 25, 30, 52, or 79?

Mulliga
February 14, 2004, 12:23 AM
Guys, this is nothing. People under 21 (like me) can't even order rifle ammo over the internet. I mean, if I go to a brick-and-mortar store, I can buy bucketloads of it, but if I order the same rifle rounds online, I'm suddenly a felon.

Blech, I hate these stupid laws. :barf:

Standing Wolf
February 14, 2004, 12:23 AM
What's to stop them from increasing the age to 25, 30, 52, or 79?

Shhhhh! The leftist extremists just haven't thought of it yet.

Seems to me if you're old enough to pay taxes, vote, and lay your life on the line for your country, you're old enough to enjoy your civil rights, too.

41mag
February 14, 2004, 12:34 AM
how many of you boomers remember when the legal drinking age pogoed between 18 & 21?

cordex
February 14, 2004, 12:45 AM
A long time ago I was reading a light blue pamphlet about the youth gun laws or something to that affect. It stated that no ammo suitable for use ONLY in a handgun is to be sold to a person under 21 years old. Well, it seems to me that .233 7.62x39 and even 45ACP are not for use only in a handgun, but what do I know. This could be an Indiana State thing and not pertain to your situation.
Well, Kcustom45, that was an ATF book on Federal law.

This sounds like a Maryland ruling.

gunsmith
February 14, 2004, 01:29 AM
and buy some ammo ...I need to learn reloading,hey what about that?
could you buy reloading supplies?
I hear it's a great hobby.

I was allowed to drink when I was 18,from what I remember
I kinda over did it.
Now I don't drink at all

Ironbarr
February 14, 2004, 02:09 AM
Just got the word from VCDL that MD has a bill to go "shall issue" with sponsors. http://mlis.state.md.us/2004rs/billfile/sb0137.htm

You might want to check out the MD Citizen's Defense League - they are no doubt on top of this. http://mcdl.org/

Ask them about that ammo thing, too.

-Andy

c_yeager
February 14, 2004, 04:54 AM
Do the state police even have the AUTHORITY to classify ammuniton in this way in Maryland? If this happened in Washington it would get a little giggle as i tossed the letter in the recycle bin.

MikeB
February 14, 2004, 10:39 AM
Ironbarr "Tell me, just how do you handle a .223/7.62x39 handgun? "

It's pretty easy to handle, I have the Carbon 15 http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/az-c15p97.asp it's a blast to shoot literally, flames several feet out of the barrel. It is accurate, the .223 round isn't really all that powerful. This thing is a lot of fun, but kinda impratical for anything other than plinking and general all around good time.

Ironbarr
February 14, 2004, 11:04 AM
MikeB...


Well - again - I learn something new every time I open my mouth ... er... keys.

That's a good looking thing, for sure. What would you say it's best effective range would be? 50 yds? Looks like a close-in-weapon maybe.

Thanks for the info.

whm1974
February 14, 2004, 11:13 AM
I cant believe this. This made me mad, When the did this come about. Now i cant even buy ammo that i have been buyin for 2 years for my gun because im not old enough now. I dont get it, how'd this go under the radar.

Get your dad or mom to get the ammo for you, fd that's not illegal whereyou live.

Guys, this is nothing. People under 21 (like me) can't even order rifle ammo over the internet. I mean, if I go to a brick-and-mortar store, I can buy bucketloads of it, but if I order the same rifle rounds online, I'm suddenly a felon.

This is news to me. If a friend over 21 brought some rifle ammo online and gave or sold it you would you and your friend be breaking the law? Is this a federal or state law sying you can't buy rifle ammo online?

Bil MEadows

MikeB
February 14, 2004, 11:13 AM
Ironbarr

Well I've only really shot it out to about 50yards, I would guess it would work out to 100 with a scope. I've never chronoed or shot much but paper with it. It will show a good group at 50 though. Also the one I have was made before the Carbon 15's were bought by Bushmaster, they used to be a seperate company, but it still looks the same to me.

Like I said, I don't think it's very pratical, but it can be a hell of alot of fun. It's also an interesting piece in my collection. When I go shooting with new friends, I'll usually bring it along - look at my toy - kinda thing. Just don't shoot targets at less than 5 yards, you might light the target on fire.

ctdonath
February 14, 2004, 11:18 AM
Yup, sounds like some bozo put together some laws not intended to be put together and coupled them with some rare firearms just to stop a few people from buying ammo.

AR15 "pistols" fire .223, hence the age restriction. Stupid, but I see where they got it.

7.62x39 provided the precident. Some years ago Olympic Arms built a few prototypes of a 7.62x39 semi-auto pistol (a la AR15 pistol style) and sold a miniscule number (less than half a dozen, IIRC). Because of that, BATF loudly declared that the act made 7.62x39 steel-core ammo into "armor-piercing pistol ammo" (again, a long stupid chain of laws not intended for such purpose, but there they are) and promptly prohibited the import of then very cheap steel-core ammo.

When is someone going to remind the feds that "shall not be infringed" means something?

Hand_Rifle_Guy
February 14, 2004, 12:36 PM
T/C Contenders were some of the first firearms I was interested in from the get-go.

That got me to The Monster. (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/2003_04_19/7.62x39.mpg) By extension, more or less.

:o You'll forgive me for nominally contributing to the issue, but it was a done deal for some years before I even started collecting.

You might try shopping around for some Wal-eyed employee ignorance. I won't tell if you won't. ;)

Bill Hook
February 14, 2004, 01:41 PM
So, what does MD do about .22 long RIFLE? It would seem that there should be no .22lr for those under 18 either, in addition to whatever you could shoot in a contender.

This ruling is full of holes, waiting to be exploited by those with the money to challenge in court.

Slimjim
February 14, 2004, 03:48 PM
Yes im just wondering if its the police making up this rule, because i never heard about a bill or anything.

WHM: I shouldnt need them too, thats the thing, i bought this same ammo for 2 years now they or an adult has to, unless this is just a gun show thing.

zahc
February 14, 2004, 04:25 PM
Get your dad or mom to get the ammo for you

Please. :cuss:


Tell a 20 year old man to get his PARENTS to buy .25 ACP for him?

Funny how nobody really raises any problem with the 21 year old laws. It's as if the gun community thinks they are OK.

Hkmp5sd
February 14, 2004, 04:46 PM
Funny how nobody really raises any problem with the 21 year old laws.
Actually, it's because, when you are 18 and begin the fight about having to wait for 21 to do certain things, before you know it, you're 21 and don't care about the fight any more.

how many of you boomers remember when the legal drinking age pogoed between 18 & 21?
I remember when the drinking age was 18 in my state, but 21 in others. While serving in the navy, I was unable to legally partake of the navy's #2 in-port pastime (the #1 pastime was already illegal).

Back when I was <21, they would ask if the ammunition was for a rifle or handgun. You said rifle and that was the end of it. That included the "handgun" calibers, as long as someone made a long gun that fired the round.

whm1974
February 14, 2004, 06:37 PM
Tell a 20 year old man to get his PARENTS to buy .25 ACP for him?

Why not? Is it still legal for parents to buy a handgun for thier kids?

Back when I was <21, they would ask if the ammunition was for a rifle or handgun. You said rifle and that was the end of it. That included the "handgun" calibers, as long as someone made a long gun that fired the round.

Funny I do remember reading one of those "laws and regluations" things posted on the counter in K-mart sporting sections when I was 16. It did say that under 21 couldn't handgun ammo expect for .22 rimfire or ammo that is exchangeable between a handgun and rifle such as the 44-40. If I was an ammo manufacter I would "for handgun and rifles" on the ammo boxes since thier are rifles made for most handgun ammo. ut that is just me.

My grandfather used to tell me that when he was a kid, he could go to the store and buy ammo and guns.

Bill Meadows

zahc
February 14, 2004, 06:37 PM
before you know it, you're 21 and don't care about the fight any more.

Oh I know. Just like shotgunners that don't care about handgun registration, hunters and 'AWs' etc.

If it doesn't affect me, I don't care...:barf:

Ironbarr
February 14, 2004, 06:49 PM
I bought an H&R 12g single for $16.00, NIB, a hunting license, and a box of shells in'48 in the now very PR of NJ. At a nickel a line setting pins in a bowling alley, it took a while to earn that shottie.

I still have it - and it hasn't hurt any human in these 56 years. I was 15. Took two Public Service buses to get home. Imagine the possibilities. But only possibilities. Frankly, the only thing on my mind as I recall, was getting home to open the box.

-Andy

cordex
February 14, 2004, 06:54 PM
Tell a 20 year old man to get his PARENTS to buy .25 ACP for him?
I did that for a while when I was under 21 ... then I went out and bought my own reloading equipment.

Don't give up just because it appears to be against the rules.

And before you start complaining about the cost of getting into reloading, you can have a Lee press and dies for ~$42. Buy a scale and you're in business. It isn't the best you can get, but it'll get you ammo for a few years until you can buy it from the factory. And maybe you'll find out that you like reloading, and move up to a progressive.

Best of luck!

Hkmp5sd
February 14, 2004, 07:04 PM
those "laws and regluations" things posted on the counter in K-mart sporting
I used to enjoy buying ammunition when I was in the military and my Florida driver's license was issued without my photo or signature on it. Back when they used to have to log ammunition purchases, it would drive the sales clerks nuts.

After I turned 21, my buddies grew to love that ID. I'd use my military ID to get into bars and they'd use my driver's license.

zahc
February 14, 2004, 07:06 PM
I know. I want to get into reloading so that I can roll my own at least. Funny how 19 year olds can be trusted to buy powder and bullets.

jimpeel
February 14, 2004, 08:16 PM
I have stated for years, now, that the XP-100 and TC Contender will be the benchmark for handgun ammo that "can penetrate a bullet-proof vest".

whm1974
February 15, 2004, 07:51 AM
Oh I know. Just like shotgunners that don't care about handgun registration, hunters and 'AWs' etc.

If it doesn't affect me, I don't care...

Just about every anti-gun person in office has stated that they want a complete gun
ban. If they allowed guns at all it would be single shot shotguns and .22.

Bill Meadows

whm1974
February 15, 2004, 07:53 AM
I have stated for years, now, that the XP-100 and TC Contender will be the benchmark for handgun ammo that "can penetrate a bullet-proof vest".

Any hi power rifle cartiage will a standerd police bullet-proof vest.

Bill Meadows

Delmar
February 15, 2004, 08:32 AM
I hear you Slimjim-when I came back from Asia, I could not get anything stronger than a coca-cola at San Fran Int'l. Drinking age was 21 back then. Raised cain some years back when Uncle Sugar decided to raise the drinking age back to 21, but it did no good. There just wasn't much of an organized protest by the younger crowd to fight this. IMO, if you are responsible enough to do all the other things the 21 and older crowd is, such as contracts, marriage, serve in the military, vote, then you are old enough, period.

Heck, I can't even buy my son a beer in a bar and he graduates from AIT in a month. Stoopid.

Harry Tuttle
February 15, 2004, 09:26 AM
What part of the "Free State" are you in, Slim Jim?

There is no legal requirement for registration of ammo purchases in MD either,
but several "entitlement zone" counties have an ammo register book on the Walmart counter.

Better make sure they have the "kids" unable to buy 50bmg too:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=798960

Spot77
February 15, 2004, 09:40 AM
Slim, did the dealer actually show you the supposed letter? I looked around the MSP website and couldn't find anything abou this at all.

I'd lay 50/50 odds that this dealer just didn't want to sell to you because of how young you look (I met you at Continental last month, so I kind of remember). Maybe you gave him a bad vibe or something and he made up some lame excuse not to sell to you. His loss, obviously.

People discriminate on lots of things, age being a huge factor. Even if you had all your ducks in a row, if this sealer doesn't like selling to young guys, he's not going to do it.

jimpeel
February 15, 2004, 02:54 PM
Any hi power rifle cartiage will a standerd police bullet-proof vest.
There ya go! So what will the antis call any of the rounds chambered to the XP-100 or TC Contender; rifle or handgun rounds?

The thread leader answers that question.

Ironbarr
February 15, 2004, 03:08 PM
I forgot to ask...


Did you ask for a copy of the SP letter? Maybe a call to the SP will tell the truth of the matter... the guy may have interpreted it wrong.

(Little late - sorry - just thought of it... won't blame it on "old", just creaky joints.) :)

Slimjim
February 15, 2004, 11:52 PM
Slim, did the dealer actually show you the supposed letter? I looked around the MSP website and couldn't find anything abou this at all.

I'd lay 50/50 odds that this dealer just didn't want to sell to you because of how young you look (I met you at Continental last month, so I kind of remember). Maybe you gave him a bad vibe or something and he made up some lame excuse not to sell to you. His loss, obviously.

People discriminate on lots of things, age being a huge factor. Even if you had all your ducks in a row, if this sealer doesn't like selling to young guys, he's not going to do it.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I dunno, i didnt think id seem threatening. Oh well, ill see him outside of md at a pa gunshow next month so, we'll see if i have cash for the ammo then.

sumpnz
February 18, 2004, 02:15 PM
Regarding the comments about reloading to avoid age limitations, for those of you who are under 21, and want access to beer, just brew your own. My dad got into homebrewing shortly after the family moved to Oregon. I was about 18 at the time, and was active in assisting him with the brewing (with my compensation being sharing in the product). I was able to buy everything for brewing at the supply store, including grain, hops, malt extract, yeast, bottles, caps, and hardware. The guy at the counter said that if a 6 year old walked in with enough money to buy all that stuff, legally there was nothing to stop the sale. It boiled down to the fact that although he was selling everything needed to porduce alcoholic beverages, he was actually selling any alcohol.

Now with reloading, there may be age restrictions (prob. 18) on buying primers (and powder?) as they are 1.4 explosives. Not sure if powder is a 1.4, but primers certainly are. But all of the equipment, plus brass and possibly bullets should not be age restricted. YMMV.

jimpeel
February 18, 2004, 02:24 PM
I don't know why the kids haven't done this yet other than their overwhelming desire for instantaneous gratification rather than having to wait a few days.

Same goes for smoking cornsilk instead of tobacco.

sumpnz
February 18, 2004, 02:44 PM
Probably part of the reason for kids not homebrewing is also that it is more expensive than having their big brother buy BudLite for them. If it was less expensive than that then I think more would do it. I have found it be cost-effective compared to micro-brews, but you'd be hard pressed to beat the economy of scale that Budweiser has over the homebrewer. Kind of the same reason why .223 Rem or 7.62x39 with FMJs is not exactly economical to reload for (especially once you account for the value of your time).

That said, I find that I enjoy drinking my homebrew more than commercial beer regardless of the cost (in $$ and time). I imagine that once I get into reloading, I'll feel the same about my shooting handloads compared to factory loads.

jimpeel
February 18, 2004, 02:48 PM
Probably part of the reason for kids not homebrewing is also that it is more expensive than having their big brother buy BudLite for them. Even more likely is that they have yet to figure out that one homebrewed beer has twice the kick of one "Old English 800" and tastes better to boot.

chaim
February 18, 2004, 06:08 PM
Slimjim, this is pure speculation but my guess is that it has nothing to do with the fact that there are handguns made in those calibers. MD has been on a tear about "assault weapons" and .223 and 7.62x39 are AR and AK rounds. Assault rifles are controlled in the same way handguns are in this state. Maybe the state police/attorney general have reinterpreted the federal law on pistol caliber to include all restricted guns in the state. Now why they didn't care what kind of gun you were using it for I'm clueless since you can't buy .357mag for a GP100 if you are under 21 but you can for a Winchester 94 I'd think even with the reinterpretation you should be able to buy it if you weren't using the .223 or 7.62x39 for an "assault rifle".

dustind
February 18, 2004, 07:36 PM
sumpnz: Was it legal for you to drink your home brew? If so would it have been legal to drink something your parents bought?

In Minnesota parents can not raise their children when it comes to alcohol, but Wisconsin is a bit more liberal. IIRC at 16 you can drink in a bar if you are with your parents. That was five years ago though. I did not do any drinking by the way, never have or will.

sumpnz
February 18, 2004, 08:09 PM
I don't think it was technically legal for me to drink the homebrew (before I was 21 anyway), though I seem to recall somebody (not a lawyer, so grains of salt had to be involved) saying that as long as my parents gave it to me, and it was only consumed on their property, and I didn't drive afterwards, etc that it was OK legally. However, I reckon that's probably more likely one of those things that just wasn't enforced if it only involved consumption (and total metabolization) on private property. The same would apply to commercially produced potent potables.

I didn't concern myself too much with the legalities at the time becuase, for one I never drank that much at any one time anyway, and didn't drink at all if I was going to leave the house that night.

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