Why corrosive ammo is bad for emergency supplies


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WardenWolf
March 22, 2012, 12:39 AM
Now, this is NOT a "SHTF" or other post-apocalyptic thread. However, it is intended to discuss the merits of corrosive ammo in an emergency situation.

A lot of people buy corrosive ammo because it's cheap and, in spam cans, has an indefinite shelf life. That's all well and good for range use, where you can clean your guns thoroughly afterwards. However, for actual emergency use, you won't have that luxury.

One, cleaning supplies tend to be very bulky, as well as give off noxious fumes. They will easily take up far more space and be more difficult to transport than the ammunition itself. But without them, your weapon will quickly degrade if you shoot a lot of corrosive ammo. On a semi-automatic, this includes thoroughly cleaning the gas tube, which gets absolutely filthy and requires a ton of supplies to clean.

Two, the cost-per-round of 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 ammo difference between surplus and Wolf or Bear ammo is more than offset by the cost of the solvent used, considering with non-corrosive you can get away with cleaning just the barrel and only cleaning the gas tube when it really needs it.

When it boils down to it, corrosive ammo often turns into a false savings, and can seriously compromise your ability to maintain your weapon in the absence of proper cleaning supplies. You wind up paying more for supplies than the cost difference for budget commercial ammo. Of course, if you're only shooting a Mosin Nagant, surplus ammo can definitely make sense, but with any semi-auto, you're asking for trouble.

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ObsidianOne
March 22, 2012, 12:47 AM
I use the same amount of cleaning supplies if I use Russian surplus 7.62x54R and if I use Brown Bear non corrosive 7.62x54R.
You still need to clean your guns in emergency situations and if you're 'stockpiling' this should be included. Well maintained weapons ensure durability and functionality and should not be overlooked.
Not to mention corrosive salts can be dissolved with boiling water.

I, however, would not recommend using corrosive ammo in a semi-auto, but that's just my opinion. Bolt action has less parts to clean and less to worry about.

Also, surplus 7.62x39 brass cased and 5.45 can be had quite a bit cheaper than their non-corrosive counterparts.

What are you basing this off of?

leadcounsel
March 22, 2012, 12:57 AM
I've never seen immediate corrosion in a weapon... I've left them sit for weeks...

Swing
March 22, 2012, 01:07 AM
Interesting thesis, but am not real sure on the over all costing out. Out of curiosity, have you crunched the numbers that we can see?

The corrosive ammo I run is 7.62x25mm in a Tokarev. Its mainly a beater/fun gun anyway though. ;)

Sam Cade
March 22, 2012, 01:11 AM
....all you need is water and a couple drops of oil to clean up after shooting corrosive...

How is that expensive?

firesky101
March 22, 2012, 01:19 AM
Not to bash, I love well thought out arguments, and you have thought. I would love to see the math though. I have the same bottle of hoppes I have been using for years, I just do not go through my cleaning supplies very fast, and yes I clean all my guns after every use. Also boiling water to remove the salts works fine, and water is cheap.

Buck Kramer
March 22, 2012, 01:24 AM
I use ammonia to neutralize mine corrosive ammo, $1 a gallon, not spendy.

Fishslayer
March 22, 2012, 01:31 AM
Now, this is NOT a "SHTF" or other post-apocalyptic thread. However, it is intended to discuss the merits of corrosive ammo in an emergency situation.

A lot of people buy corrosive ammo because it's cheap and, in spam cans, has an indefinite shelf life. That's all well and good for range use, where you can clean your guns thoroughly afterwards. However, for actual emergency use, you won't have that luxury.

One, cleaning supplies tend to be very bulky, as well as give off noxious fumes. They will easily take up far more space and be more difficult to transport than the ammunition itself. But without them, your weapon will quickly degrade if you shoot a lot of corrosive ammo. On a semi-automatic, this includes thoroughly cleaning the gas tube, which gets absolutely filthy and requires a ton of supplies to clean.

Two, the cost-per-round of 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 ammo difference between surplus and Wolf or Bear ammo is more than offset by the cost of the solvent used, considering with non-corrosive you can get away with cleaning just the barrel and only cleaning the gas tube when it really needs it.

When it boils down to it, corrosive ammo often turns into a false savings, and can seriously compromise your ability to maintain your weapon in the absence of proper cleaning supplies. You wind up paying more for supplies than the cost difference for budget commercial ammo. Of course, if you're only shooting a Mosin Nagant, surplus ammo can definitely make sense, but with any semi-auto, you're asking for trouble.


OK.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...... And?:confused:


You are not perchance trying to talk us out of buying that Yugo brass milsurp x39 are ya?:neener:

ObsidianOne
March 22, 2012, 01:35 AM
I use ammonia to neutralize mine corrosive ammo, $1 a gallon, not spendy.

I've yet to see any proof that ammonia neutralizes corrosive salts.

BCRider
March 22, 2012, 01:37 AM
WardenWolf, clearly you have not shot and cleaned a rifle that uses corrosive ammo.

If you had you'd know that we don't use powder solvents any more than for a regular rifle. And in fact I've noticed that on my Mosin Nagants I actually use very little solvent. But I do swab first with a couple of wet patches dipped in plain old water. On occasion I've also used some Windex to aid in cutting through the grime a little quicker.

My procedure for the Mosin Nagant is to pass two or three water or Windex patches down the bore. By the second or third it's coming out clean so no need for any more. Following this I push a dry patch down. Then a patch or two dipped in my favourite solvent (Ed's Red in my case) to clean away any fouling that the water or Windex didn't deal with. Again if there's anything on the first solvent patch it's generally gone by the second or at most third one. I then pass one more dry patch down the bore to soak up the excess solvent/oil mix and I'm done.

This can all be done literally within 5 to 7 minutes from the time the gun hits the work stand to the time I'm doing an overall wipe down with a slightly oily rag before putting it away.

I hardly think one could call this amount of work an onerous or expensive task. I may use a couple of more patches than a non corrosive shooter but I don't see that as a big deal. Especially since I'm not adverse to using cut up paper towel for the water and solvent patches.

Ignition Override
March 22, 2012, 01:54 AM
The only corrosive 7.62x39 I've seen since '08 at distributors is Yugo.

Russian Wolf and Monarch etc is not corrosive. Do the minor savings using corrosive Yugo (7.62x39) -compared to Russian- make it worth it, while requiring various components to be cleaned every day such Yugo ammo is used?

"Ammo-seek" and "Ammo-deals" seem to be excellent sources.

Fishslayer
March 22, 2012, 02:02 AM
The only corrosive 7.62x39 I've seen since '08 at distributors is Yugo.

Russian Wolf and Monarch etc is not corrosive. Do the minor savings using corrosive Yugo (7.62x39) -compared to Russian- make it worth it, while requiring various components to be cleaned every day such Yugo ammo is used?

"Ammo-seek" and "Ammo-deals" seem to be excellent sources.

Two major reasons it's in demand are:

1. Steel free. Many ranges don't allow ammo with steel cases and/or steel in the projectile. They use a magnet to check. Indoors steel projectiles are hard on backstops and lots of ranges count on brass for $$$. Outdoors there is often fire hazard.

2. Price. There is steel free non corrosive x39 available but it is usually pushing $1/round.


Add in the fact that it is a finite resource that is drying up and everybody & his dog is buying up all they can.

I have access to an indoor range that allows steel ammo so I can play with my SKSs, but my Mini-30 still needs the brass cased stuff.

Ignition Override
March 22, 2012, 02:07 AM
Those are excellent points Fishslayer.

Inebriated
March 22, 2012, 02:07 AM
Corrosive ammo requires only water to clean. Not even clean water, just water. As long as it's moving fast enough to move the salts out of the barrel, it's good. Do that, dry it, and put oil on it (if we're thinking survival situation, that's a spray bottle and any and all types of oil you can find... these are mostly Russian guns, after all).

It's super cheap (well, was), accurate, reliable, and basically lives forever.

I keep about 1000 rounds of mixed Wolf/Yugo, and I don't feel at all disadvantaged by the Yugo.

WardenWolf
March 22, 2012, 02:28 AM
It depends. If it's something like a gas tube, where it gets impregnated in the carbon buildup, cleaning it is not so easy.

I did some price comparisons of Wolf 7.62x39 and surplus. There's about a 6 cent difference per round. It's pretty hard to justify the extra cleaning time, effort, and supply costs for that little.

I've got a Mosin Nagant, PSL, SKS, and AK. I won't shoot corrosive through the PSL anymore. Too big a nightmare to clean up. Gas Barrel, gas tube, muzzle brake. Major mess. Plus, it's not a high-volume shooter. For the AK, the cost difference just doesn't make sense.

why.kyle
March 22, 2012, 02:50 AM
Honest question, What did soldiers do when they fought wars with corrosive ammo?
Im sure it wont be any bigger problem for them then it would be for an individual.

Fishslayer
March 22, 2012, 03:58 AM
It depends. If it's something like a gas tube, where it gets impregnated in the carbon buildup, cleaning it is not so easy.

I did some price comparisons of Wolf 7.62x39 and surplus. There's about a 6 cent difference per round. It's pretty hard to justify the extra cleaning time, effort, and supply costs for that little.

I've got a Mosin Nagant, PSL, SKS, and AK. I won't shoot corrosive through the PSL anymore. Too big a nightmare to clean up. Gas Barrel, gas tube, muzzle brake. Major mess. Plus, it's not a high-volume shooter. For the AK, the cost difference just doesn't make sense.


Google "Moose milk." ;)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/THE_Fishslayer/OSR/OSR1/MooseMilk.jpg

For gas tubes, etc. I use nylon brushes from Harbor Freight. About $3 for an assortment. Anybody who's cleaned an AR for Uncle Sugar knows what the pipe cleaners ar for. ;)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/THE_Fishslayer/OSR/OSR1/Brushes1.jpg

ObsidianOne
March 22, 2012, 04:34 AM
You wouldn't normally clean carbon buildup off of your gas tube?
I agree with semi-autos as there are more parts that are affected and it can be a pain in the butt to be more thorough every time, but like others have mentioned, other countries have been using this ammo for decades and their rifles don't rust into pieces when they charge into battle.

I don't know what you're doing when cleaning your surplus rifles, but evidently you're doing something wrong, as it takes me less time to clean my Mosin Nagant than it does to clean my Ruger 10/22.
I've shot hundreds of rounds of corrosive ammo through it without a single issue and all I use is Hoppes 9 and oil.

.06 cents per round times 1,000 rounds is 60 bucks. That's pretty substantial considering that you're probably shooting quite a bit or stockpiling.

I can't speak on this 100%, however I have been told the Yugo 7.62x39 is only minorly corrosive in comparison to the 70's Russian 7.62x54R.

I think you're being a bit dramatic, sir.

ColtPythonElite
March 22, 2012, 05:20 AM
I think everybody gets wrapped around the axle over using corrosive ammo with little justification other than a bunch of internet lore....I have a Mosin and SKS that I have owned for over 2 decades with each seeing piles of corrosive stuff. Back before I was ever educated thru the internet about cleaning with water, I simply cleaned them with whatever bore solvent I had on hand and oiled them like any other gun...Guess what? Neither have nary a speck, spot, or trace of rust on or in them.

With all that said, I also know that water will do a fine job of cleaning the corrosive residue from my experience with muzzleloaders over the years. I wouldn't have any problem stockpiling corrosive ammo for whatever emergency might come up, because I'd also likely be stockpiling water as well. In the worst case the world is gonna end scenario I can dream up, I wouldn't have any worries about boiling a pot of water and pouring it over my semi-auto to wash her down and then oiling her up as soon as the hot metal evaporated the water off.

evan price
March 22, 2012, 05:37 AM
If TSHTF you are not going to be shooting thousands of rounds. It's not going to be some massive war of liberation led by John Connor against the Terminators.

The stockpile is for BEFORE TSHTF for practice and competency.

If you are planning for a SHTF type situation and popping off cans of ammo with no way to clean it up- you're screwed.

You can clean a rifle with urine if you have to. And if that grosses you out you are NOT ready for TSHTF.

GLOOB
March 22, 2012, 06:25 AM
Maybe you could throw a cleaning rod and some oil in there, too, while you're burying your ammo cache. :)

If it's not worth breaking down the gun and cleaning it afterwards, how big of an emergency was it? If you're still alive to worry about pitting and corrosion, then I'd say your emergency was averted.

One, cleaning supplies tend to be very bulky, as well as give off noxious fumes. They will easily take up far more space and be more difficult to transport than the ammunition itself.
My cleaning gear consists of a couple rods and brushes, a piece of fishing line, a couple jags, a 4 oz bottle of CLP, some bronze wool, and on rare occasions I use a dab of Hoppe's from a 3 oz bottle I've had for 3 years. All that weighs about 2 pounds. And in a pinch, I could get by with just a pistol rod, a length of fishing line, and some motor oil. You're comparing that to a spam can of 300+ rounds of ammunition? Let alone, ALL my ammo weighs over a hundred pounds. :)

tarosean
March 22, 2012, 06:27 AM
If TSHTF you are not going to be shooting thousands of rounds. It's not going to be some massive war of liberation led by John Connor against the Terminators.
The stockpile is for BEFORE TSHTF for practice and competency.
If you are planning for a SHTF type situation and popping off cans of ammo with no way to clean it up- you're screwed.
You can clean a rifle with urine if you have to. And if that grosses you out you are NOT ready for TSHTF.

Im guessing in a true Fan situation your more than likely dead before corrosion effects the weapon... then its someone elses problem..

The Sarge
March 22, 2012, 07:48 AM
You are over thinking this entire issue friend.
Overstating the corrosive aspects also.
Pretty simple.
Corrosive ammo has been used in battle and civilian life for a long long time. Look around. Lots of MilSurps looking pretty dog gone good aren't there. Not all ate up and melted are they?
Just run a patch or two of any water based "cleaner" down the pipe and hit the bolt face.
Your done.
Clean your weapon like you would any other from there.
You gun is not going to melt in your hands. Your barrel isn't going to look like a pitted sewer pipe before you can get back to your truck.

M-Cameron
March 22, 2012, 08:28 AM
You can clean a rifle with urine if you have to. And if that grosses you out you are NOT ready for TSHTF.

im pretty sure this is how Bear Grylls cleans his guns......SHTF or not.

The Lone Haranguer
March 22, 2012, 08:30 AM
Even in military combat, soldiers found time to clean their weapons. And a "survival" situation is nothing like that. How many rounds would you actually fire?

Remllez
March 22, 2012, 08:41 AM
Check the cleaning kit in the butt stock of most AK's...... That and an oil bottle ......there be your answer matey.

Swing
March 22, 2012, 10:36 AM
If TSHTF you are not going to be shooting thousands of rounds. It's not going to be some massive war of liberation led by John Connor against the Terminators.

The stockpile is for BEFORE TSHTF for practice and competency.

Well said.

ball3006
March 22, 2012, 12:20 PM
Stored ammo, either corrosive or non-corrosive, will probably out live you anyway so why worry? The important thing during the crisis, is to survive. Not go out in a blaze of glory like in Red Dawn. I am a C&R junkie and tending to a gun after shooting adds about 5 seconds to the cleanup.....chris3

waho
March 22, 2012, 12:42 PM
I use this, worked for GI Joe, works for me.

Whacked
March 22, 2012, 02:27 PM
I use ammonia to neutralize mine corrosive ammo, $1 a gallon, not spendy.
ammonia does nothing to remove salts.
It can create salts (you've heard of ammonia salts right?)
you are actually wasting money by using ammonia

Plain Jane water removes corrosive salts.
even better like Fishslayer pointed out, Moose Milk (Ballistol/Water mix)
Works great for corrosive black powder and corrosive ammo.
Works great regardless.

Spray down the firearm after shooting. Go home. Spray a bit more, patch, wipe down, put away. simple. fast. even a caveman can do it.

Shadow 7D
March 22, 2012, 02:40 PM
Hold the Presses
soap and water are expensive??
shoot, I'd just use any ol water i could find and some ivory that I already have in my shave kit, then some oil and I'm good to go

How is this any more expensive than any other cleaning supply?

JustinJ
March 22, 2012, 04:14 PM
Ammonia actually dissolves copper and is present in a number of bore cleaners for that very reason. Windex with ammonia also contains a solvent that helps remove fouling.

The speed of potential corrsion and potential harm caused by it will vary from weapon to weapon. An AK built to true specs with proper chrome lining can actually go a fair time without cleaning after using corrosive ammo. The gas tube may rust some but it won't impair function unless a substantial sized hole has been created which would take a long time. Even after rust has formed just clean with water and apply a light coat of oil to stop continued corrosion. Also, one does not need to scrub the gas tube to sufficiently clean it. Just spray with windex or other water based cleaner, rinse with water and apply light coat of oil. If no cleaner is available water alone will probably work. There is no plethora of additional cleaning products needed to clean any gun after corrosive ammo. Water alone will do fine, the hotter the better, so long as oil is applied after.

willypete
March 22, 2012, 04:27 PM
One time, at band camp, I heard that the Japanese started out with a 6.5 Arisaka, but their ammo was so corrosive that they had to move up to a 7.5 Arisaka. After that cartridge rotted their barrels out, they were planning on shooting 8mm Mauser, like the Germans, but we won the war before that happened.

Then again, that could just be garbage, and you could just clean your bores with soapy water, dry them, then oil. Seriously, I clean blackpowder cast lead .32 Winchester special residue out of a 107 year old gun with hot water and Ajax dish soap. Do you really think your Commie tent peg rifle is gonna rot out if you do the same with smokeless powder and a corrosive primer?!

Buck Kramer
March 22, 2012, 04:36 PM
I've yet to see any proof that ammonia neutralizes corrosive salts.

I'm on my 3rd crate of surplus through my 2 AK74's, If ammonia didn't work, I'd have holes in my guns :) A lot of people use Windex, but the active ingredient in Windex is ammonia.

Remember chemistry? A strong base can cancel out a strong acid.

Alec
March 22, 2012, 04:53 PM
Remember chemistry? A strong base can cancel out a strong acid.

I remember that neutralizing an acid with a base results in a salt.

I also know that salt + moisture is bad for steel :)

Solidgun
March 22, 2012, 04:58 PM
Piss down the barrel and use oil build up on your nose. I don't see myself running out of motor oils with all the vehicles lying around, but this is one method of doing it when you run out of everything.

The Sarge
March 22, 2012, 05:00 PM
Gotta carry a ladder around to piss down the barrel.

JustinJ
March 22, 2012, 05:02 PM
I'm on my 3rd crate of surplus through my 2 AK74's, If ammonia didn't work, I'd have holes in my guns A lot of people use Windex, but the active ingredient in Windex is ammonia.

In regards to removing salts the active ingredient in windex is water. As indicated already the only benefit from the ammonia is removal of copper. The goal here is not to neutralize an acid but to remove salts.

Telekinesis
March 22, 2012, 05:22 PM
If you're in a SHTF scenario (or just at the range) your gun is going to need to be cleaned eventually whether you're using corrosive ammo or not, and honestly, there's not much difference between cleaning guns no matter what ammo you're using. Maybe one more step to neutralize/remove the corrosive salts, but its not too bad. You may also have to move up gun cleaning on your list of priorities, but if you're in a firefight, the first thing that should happen when you get safe is that you clean your gun anyway.

One, cleaning supplies tend to be very bulky, as well as give off noxious fumes. They will easily take up far more space and be more difficult to transport than the ammunition itself.

While I have a nice, well stocked home cleaning kit, I also have a good portable kit that is my "SHTF" or my "I'm traveling with a gun" cleaning kit. Seriously, it fits in a quart sized ziplock bag and weighs less than a loaded pistol magazine and has what I need to clean every single gun I own. Oil, solvent, bore snakes, a bit of old tshirt for a rag and a syringe of grease.

And on the "proper cleaning supplies" note, I love how people always say you need a high dollar, gun specific cleaner. You can clean a gun just fine with kerosene, diesel fuel, ammonia, or even soap and water (as mentioned earlier in this thread). For lubrication, you can do anything from motor oil to wheel bearing grease. Hell, buy a bucket of lithium wheel bearing grease for $6, load it into a couple of syringes, and you've got a lifetime supply of gun lubricant! And while the fancy gun specific solvents and oils may disappear from stores, I don't see any of these things disappearing if the SHTF. People are still going to need their cars to run.

JustinJ
March 22, 2012, 05:31 PM
I just recalled an article i read long ago about an AK47 left and forgotten in some ranch barn. Years later when it was found the carrier had rusted shut and could only be opened by kicking it with a boot like starting a bike. Aside from wiping the components and receiver down and a little lube applied no work was done on the gun as i recall. Anyways, the gun ran without a hiccup. I wouldn't be surprised if the thing would have run bone dry.

Jeff F
March 22, 2012, 06:50 PM
Heres a fair article on cleaning corrosive salts. Theres a chart at the end that shows what cuts the salts the best
http://www.garandgear.com/cleaning-your-m1-garand

Bubba613
March 22, 2012, 11:37 PM
The premise is absurd.

Steel Horse Rider
March 22, 2012, 11:51 PM
But, it is just like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going and going.......

Tim37
March 22, 2012, 11:52 PM
i dont have a problem with the stuff but i generaly clean after i shoot.

commygun
March 23, 2012, 01:18 AM
I clean my Mosin with ATF after shooting corrosive ammo and haven't seen the slightest sign of rust.

Shadow 7D
March 23, 2012, 07:24 PM
Actually wait, here's the funny

Windex doesn't contain ammonia
check the MSDS, it's alcohol.

Sorry, but, yall have to switch to sudsy ammonia, it's cheaper BTW.

Sam Cade
March 23, 2012, 08:08 PM
Windex doesn't contain ammonia
check the MSDS, it's alcohol.:scrutiny:

It has up to 1.5% Ammonium hydroxide by weight.


http://www.foothill.edu/printmaking/MSDS/Windex_MSDS.pdf

Shadow 7D
March 23, 2012, 08:56 PM
Ok now how bout going to it's manufacture
http://arts.ucalgary.ca/theatres/sites/arts.ucalgary.ca.theatres/files/Windex_Original_Streak-Free_Glass_CleanerMSDS.pdf

That is the link from the SC Johnson site
http://h2.crsondemand.com/scripts/scj.wsc/kb?doc=88662&view=1607&log=1&source=link

It depends on which one you get, as this one does have ammonia

leadchucker
March 23, 2012, 09:42 PM
A lot of people buy corrosive ammo because it's cheap and, in spam cans, has an indefinite shelf life. That's all well and good for range use, where you can clean your guns thoroughly afterwards. However, for actual emergency use, you won't have that luxury.
FALSE. If "emergency use" extends beyond a period of months, and you can't find time to clean your weapons, you have more problems to worry about than a little salt in your weapons.

But without (cleaning supplies), your weapon will quickly degrade if you shoot a lot of corrosive ammo. On a semi-automatic, this includes thoroughly cleaning the gas tube, which gets absolutely filthy and requires a ton of supplies to clean.
FALSE. Mild potassium salt residue won't cause corrosion unless it is exposed to moisture. Even it this happens, the minute corrosion will not immediately degrade the weapon. This residue is easily removed with common water anyway. BTW, one other thing removes any corrosive moisture from the barrel. Firing it.

The cost-per-round of 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 ammo difference between surplus and Wolf or Bear ammo is more than offset by the cost of the solvent used, considering with non-corrosive you can get away with cleaning just the barrel and only cleaning the gas tube when it really needs it.
FALSE. Surplus ammo is cheaper than Wolf or Bear ammo. Water is free.

When it boils down to it, corrosive ammo often turns into a false savings, and can seriously compromise your ability to maintain your weapon in the absence of proper cleaning supplies. You wind up paying more for supplies than the cost difference for budget commercial ammo. Of course, if you're only shooting a Mosin Nagant, surplus ammo can definitely make sense, but with any semi-auto, you're asking for trouble.
FALSE. Millions of WWII era and older rifles have spent their entire existence (that's going on a hundred years.) firing corrosive ammo, and have not been rendered unusable by it.

Inebriated
March 24, 2012, 03:18 AM
FALSE. If "emergency use" extends beyond a period of months, and you can't find time to clean your weapons, you have more problems to worry about than a little salt in your weapons.

FALSE. Mild potassium salt residue won't cause corrosion unless it is exposed to moisture. Even it this happens, the minute corrosion will not immediately degrade the weapon. This residue is easily removed with common water anyway. BTW, one other thing removes any corrosive moisture from the barrel. Firing it.

FALSE. Surplus ammo is cheaper than Wolf or Bear ammo. Water is free.

FALSE. Millions of WWII era and older rifles have spent their entire existence (that's going on a hundred years.) firing corrosive ammo, and have not been rendered unusable by it.
Reminded me of this

http://www.alfajango.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Dwight-Schrute-False-cropped.jpg

Fishslayer
March 24, 2012, 03:37 AM
:scrutiny:

It has up to 1.5% Ammonium hydroxide by weight.


http://www.foothill.edu/printmaking/MSDS/Windex_MSDS.pdf

Any "glass cleaner" that is ammonia free will generally specify on the label. Ammonia free is what you want for tinted windows. Ammonia degrades the adhesive. That's why you see bubbly purple windows on so many cars.

Hacker15E
March 24, 2012, 10:35 AM
It's a wonder that any milsurp firearms even still exist, given how shooting corrosive ammunition without immediate white-glove cleaning will cause such damage.

It's amazing how in the internet age, corrosive-primed ammunition has been built up into a 30-foot-tall monster that will tear your weapon apart.

Shadow 7D
March 24, 2012, 05:28 PM
Funny, I seem to remember someone explaining why the mercury/lead/corrosive primers are more stable, and hence used for military ammo that is stockpiled for decades.

xfyrfiter
March 24, 2012, 06:01 PM
Black powder is in all respects more harmful than corrosive ammo, yet I have used boiling water + a little ivory bar soap,to clean my bp rifles. clean up and a couple of drops of any oil including cooking oil and it's done.

WYOMan
March 25, 2012, 02:14 AM
I seem to remember a picture of two British soldiers from the early 1900's with thier Enfileds muzzle down, and large funnels in the breech end, pouring water down the bores.

P5 Guy
March 25, 2012, 01:46 PM
H2O The universal solvent. The hotter the better.
Mentioned before; if things are that bad for that long, the last of our worries will be frosty bores.

don p
March 25, 2012, 03:20 PM
I've yet to see any proof that ammonia neutralizes corrosive salts.

It doesn't, the water its mixed with does the neutralizing.
All I use to clean my Mosin's after shooting corrosive ammo is Hoppe's#9
No water, no ammonia. Hoppe's and then oil the barrel.
At this web sight there is plenty of info about corrosive primers and what/how to clean.
www.7.62X54R.net banghead

coalman
March 26, 2012, 02:55 AM
Water (i.e. amount needed for cleaning) is basically free. The AK survived on commie corrosive ammo for decades. However, I agree once corrosive pricing bumped up to (very near) non-corrosive pricing the hassle of corrosive ammo is not worth it.

P5 Guy
March 26, 2012, 03:57 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
While ammonia does not do anything to the corrosive salts, it will attack the copper fouling. Maybe that allows the salts under the copper to be dissolved by the water?

daniel craig
March 26, 2012, 03:59 PM
If you clean your weapon after you shoot it then there is NOTHING wrong with corrosive ammo. If you don't clean your weapon after shooing, the it CAN corrode the interior of your weapon. Be a responsible gun owner and you have no problem.

Honestly, use valvoline engine oil to clean your weapon. Afterwards, if you think it needs more cleaning use vinegar to get the corrosive salts out.

pockets
March 27, 2012, 08:39 AM
The initial post is much ado about nothing. Mercy, how has humanity cleaned corrosive residue from their guns over the centuries without "a ton of supplies to clean"? Non-corrosive ammunition is a relatively recent invention.
As has been stated several times.....water is quite inexpensive and quite effective. I've been cleaning my flintlock and percussion guns for several decades with plain old water. And yes, I have tried cleaning with 'urine'....it works just fine. Dry and oil, all done.
My dozens of cartridge guns get cleaned with the bare minimum of commercial product, certainly nothing exotic is used, and I do nothing different after shooting corrosive ammo than non-corrosive.
And as has been stated; the cleaning kit in the stock of your AK-clone is all the 'a ton of supplies to clean' you'll need for it. A very clever tool kit that...just add water.

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sturmgewehr
March 27, 2012, 10:08 AM
The last time I checked water was pretty cheap unless you're buying that bottle fashionable stuff at the local gas station.

If you don't have ANY cleaning supplies in your pack, you should probably rethink the contents of your pack.

I can clean my AK with pond water, spray it with CLP and call it a day. I've been cleaning my rifles with water for decades with no problems at all. It is water, not Windex, Ballistol or any other wonder chemical that deactivates corrosive salts. Yes, Windex does stop the corrosive action, but that's because Windex contains over 90% water. The ammonia is great for removing copper fouling but does nothing to deactivate salts.

Militaries around the used corrosive ammo all the way through WWII and in some cases through the 1980's. How is it that they didn't have all the problems you're talking about I wonder? :D

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