School me on stun guns and Tasers.


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Owen Sparks
March 22, 2012, 02:33 AM
This is something that I have absolutly no experience with other than watching a few videos of people being zaped by the police. As I understand it Tasers are expensive yet allow you to zap the bad guy at a safe distance. Hand held stun guns work on the same principle but are a good bit cheaper and require you to make solid contact with the subject for several seconds to get the same result.

Anyone ever been zapped?

Do these things really shut people down who are doped up and don't feel pain?

Is the reaction psycological or physical?

Can they kill?

Just curious, OS

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Spec ops Grunt
March 22, 2012, 02:45 AM
I can assure you, they can kill.

I did a research paper about police misuse of tasers for community college a year or two ago.

It's been awhile, but iirc the reaction from a taser, assuming the barbs hit right, is a physical one.

There are also numerous cases of death from taser by police. Typically, the deceased was tasered multiple times over a short period, or continually through a longer period; in some instances the batteries tasers were dead or close to dead. People who died tended to have drugs in their system or may have had heart conditions.

I wouldn't say they are non-lethal myself, but I don't know how the law sees it. It's still pretty untested legally I believe. Varies much by location

Centurian22
March 22, 2012, 03:59 AM
Varies by voltage. I have a '100,000 volt' stun gun (supposedly, though I've heard the advertised voltages are grossly overstated usually) that I bought cause it was cheap ($9.99 + shipping from Bud K). 100k is on the low end of what's out there as they go up to and over 1,000,000 volts. I've tased myself in the leg and stomach briefly, probably 1 second or less. It certainly gets your full attention real quick and I don't doubt that with a several second constant application it would change a bad guys intentions. The draw back is at first they are going to do whatever they can to sever the contact, back away or swing at you or your arm (if they can move). The true tasers that shoot wired barbs are 'safer' for the user due to distance.

All this said I wish they would make the 12ga taser rounds available to civilians!!!
http://www.taser.com/products/law-enforcement/taser-xrep

These things are AWESOME!!!

kim breed
March 22, 2012, 09:32 AM
they will plant your face in the dirt. Tazers are great for non lethal attention getters.

Fer
March 31, 2012, 04:06 PM
I want to buy a 800,000volt Zap Stick, beacuse I thought people dropped after a second or two of contact, but I see videos of idiots playing around zapping each other and intead of dropping they laugh. What is the point of a stun gun then?

hso
March 31, 2012, 06:28 PM
Hand held stun guns work on the same principle

Nope

"stun" guns are pain compliance tools that have some ability to overload a small set of muscles. The do not stun nor do they incapacitate. All the video of idiots playing around with them demonstrate this pretty well.

TASERs overload all the voluntary muscles throughout the body because of the wide separation of the probes embedded in the flesh and the voltage/current passing through the body. TASERs are farrrrr more effective than "stun" guns. Their disadvantage is that they're one shot items and if either probe doesn't embed there is no circuit for current to flow through the body.

If you'll read all the various threads where members have had TASERs used on them in training you'll find the info you're looking for.

dbooksta
July 31, 2012, 12:22 PM
So is it correct to conclude that to get incapacitation through an electric weapon you have to get electrodes embedded in the skin -- like a taser does -- and that any stun gun that does not penetrate the skin will only cause pain, not physical incapacitation?

hso
July 31, 2012, 12:38 PM
Pretty much.

Stun guns are pain compliance devices.

Tasers interfere the voluntary nervous system and also cause pain.

Owen Sparks
July 31, 2012, 03:28 PM
So a tazer applies the force more like an electric fence?

For an electric fence to work you have to touch the ground and the wire at the same time to complete the circuit and they are usually a few feet apart. I learned this the hard way. Birds can land on the hot wire without being harmed because they are not grounded. On stun guns the prongs are only a couple of inches apart.

hso
July 31, 2012, 03:35 PM
So a tazer applies the force more like an electric fence?

Yes and no.

You still have to have a circuit for any of the electrical devices to work. A stun gun doesn't have enough separation between contacts (or frequency) to do anything more than hurt.
A brush against an electric fence will just hurt, but grab it (make the fool mistake of peeing on it) and it grabs back causing some muscle contraction and pain.
The tazer is sending a very specific voltage across to overload the muscles. Have one lead not hit properly and there's nothing. Have both hit properly and you get the effect.

As mad geeks in high school we used to play with a lot of things that would DC current to you. Large model train transformers were used to test "how much you could take" to fight having your arms contract uncontrollably. We did similar foolish things standing on the leads and even had each of two people stand on separate leads and "fence" with each other bare handed. The voltages were often cranked up to levels that would cause involuntary muscle contraction. If you hit the other guy in the mouth with a finger it caused them to recoil and pitch off their electrode cutting the circuit. Crazy kids.

dbooksta
July 31, 2012, 06:24 PM
So to instantly incapacitate with a high-voltage, low-amperage weapon like stun guns or tasers you either have to penetrate skin or get the contacts some distance apart? Is there any science on how deep or how far apart? (And does it vary with point of impact -- e.g., leg vs. arm vs. torso vs. head?)

So for example if you sharpened the electrodes on a conventional stun gun and were able to jam them into a target far enough to break his skin would the effect be identical to a successful taser hit? (And does anyone know what the minimum separation on target is for taser electrodes to work as advertised?)

Alternatively if you had stun gun with separate electrodes that you could hold in each hand and successfully land on a subject is there some critical separation distance that would cause immediate incapacitation without skin or subcutaneous contact?

hso
July 31, 2012, 06:51 PM
My understanding is that voltage and frequency are critical. If used in stun mode after missing with darts the Tazer is no different from a dumb stun gun. A simple pain compliance device.

Bikewer
July 31, 2012, 09:45 PM
We've been issuing the Taser (X26) for some years now, and the department has used them a number of times.
We take training on same annually.
The Taser's electrical pulse is tuned to the same frequency as the nerve signals that control the voluntary muscles.
So, with a good "hit", you get a whole-body spasm or charly-horse that is very effective.
In one of the training films, they put down a bull with one! (of course, as soon as the 5-second pulse quits, the bull is up and VERY mad....)
Ideally, you want the two probes in muscle mass separated by a foot or more. The Back is an ideal target.
If you get only one probe in the bad guy, you can physically touch the external contact on the cartridge to the person and get a circuit. They call this the "drive stun" mode. Why I do not know....

"Stun guns" are, as HSO notes, merely pain compliance weapons that hurt as long as they are in contact. They neither stun nor incapacitate.

The police version of the Taser "fires" for 5 seconds; normally long enough to discourage the fellow and slap the cuffs on. Not always... We were shown film of a belligerent drunk who kept getting zapped and kept getting up again... The officer was alone and no backup.
Also, although there have indeed been a number of deaths "associated' with the Taser, the vast majority of these were found to be due to other causes, primarily "cocaine intoxication syndrome" which can produce heart failure after violent activity.

janobles14
July 31, 2012, 11:21 PM
stun guns are simply and amperage and voltage issue. high jolts of electricity that is at a much lower amperage than even a standard light socket. amperage (not voltage) is what kills. stun guns, as mentioned, are mainly pain compliance (but can disable if held long enough).

tasers directly interfere with the T-wave in the brain. upon disruption, the body involoutarily loses muscle control. and while they do hurt like little else, they are a true incapacitation device.

Owen Sparks
August 1, 2012, 12:48 AM
...although there have indeed been a number of deaths "associated' with the Taser, the vast majority of these were found to be due to other causes...

According to my paramedic buddy, the number one place to die from a stroke is on the toilet. This is because the bathroom is about the only place that elderly or infirm people physically exert themselves. If they are going to have a stroke anytime in the next few weeks, straining on the toilet will trigger the stroke. This is usually the same sort of thing that causes people to die when being zapped by a Taser. They are either in bad physical condition or their heart is already under such tremendous physical strain from drugs that the additional stress from being zapped finishes them off.

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