French Shooter & Gun Laws


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Tipro
March 23, 2012, 04:34 PM
This may be being talked about already, but haven't seen it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/23/us-france-shooting-guns-idUSBRE82M0YW20120323

That's an article about the Islamic terrorist who went on the shooting spree in France.

Terrible tragedy, but a few interesting things in the article.

The caption of the article is "How did he obtain so many guns?" One guy asks "How was he able to buy so many, like they were yogurts?" The shock and disbelief in the French people that their government and their gun laws failed to protect them is sad. But, of course, everyone interviewed asks for more gun laws. I feel certain the next wave of regulation will solve the problem.

The article openly admits that the French gun laws are some of the strictest in the world, and that they failed to stop this guy from getting weapons, but failed to make the logical connections. Here's some quotes: "With a background like his, the shooter could not have acquired the firearms legally," and, "he was under scrutiny of [the French authorities]." Oh gosh, the government failed at something, I'm shocked.

What do yall think of the article's repeated use of the word "arsenal" to describe the man's 8 gun collection? Technically the usage would be correct, so am I just paranoid when I think that its use is just another scare tactic? "Arsenal" seems to signify something scary, especially as it's used most often in the context of nuclear weapons.

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mnrivrat
March 23, 2012, 10:42 PM
The use of the term Arsenal is an attempt to exagarate the amount for theatrical purpose.

Nothing new and it is done in our media frequently.

Nothing pleases some folks more than more laws. Violent crime, and gun control laws have no meaningful link . They never have, and never will.

InfamousLegend
March 23, 2012, 11:20 PM
I'm a 19 year old Californian resident and own 5 firearms, guess I have an arsenal.

M44 Mosin Nagant
Ruger 10/22
EuroArms Brescia Replica 1858 Remington
Marlin 336 .30-30
S&W 1953 Pre-27 .357mag

NOLAEMT
March 23, 2012, 11:32 PM
I've never understood the concern over owning multiple guns. The most you can possibly shoot at once is two, one if you want to hit anything. So what does it matter if the person has 100 other guns? Are they any more dangerous?

... I don't think so.

Prince Yamato
March 23, 2012, 11:53 PM
Edit: I need to read the article...

mes227
March 24, 2012, 12:02 AM
I have an Arsenal in my CAR!! I chuckled when I heard a tv report that said, with shock in the reporter's voice, "The shooter had THOUSANDS of rounds of ammunition...."

ExTank
March 24, 2012, 01:24 AM
What's the next step "up" from an arsenal?

'Cause that's what I have.

sawdeanz
March 24, 2012, 01:48 AM
The second (maybe first) most shocking part of that article is the part where the pres diverted intelligence resources to spy on opponents and illegally tap newspaper phone lines. HOLY CRAP! I mean I know even the US isn't completely corruption free but how can the french trust their govt to take their guns from them if it clearly has the intention to break its own laws. And yet the people want even more lgun laws. Really awfully sad

mrvco
March 24, 2012, 02:11 AM
How can it be that the top police unit fails to capture a man who is alone?"


It sounds like he was an intelligence asset of some kind and they didn't want to suffer the embarrassment of the public finding out the real reason why they hadn't picked him up and/or deported him.

razorback2003
March 24, 2012, 03:54 AM
I don't think the Sten and Uzi are legal for French folks to own. He might be able to own some of the pistols, AFTER getting permission from the government. French gun laws have a ban on 'military' caliber guns or strictly limit them.

AlexanderA
March 24, 2012, 02:05 PM
In most of Europe the strict gun laws are regularly ignored. In Greece, for example, private ownership of rifles is illegal, yet Athens is awash with AK-47's, which are used in robberies and murders on a daily basis.

America may be unique in the law-abiding attitude of most of its citizens.

medalguy
March 24, 2012, 02:29 PM
I recall a shooting somwehere in the US recently where the news reporters gushed about a shooter having "an arsenal" of a handgun and shotgun. Oh my, TWO guns make up an arsenal. Good thing that reporter wasn't looking in my window. :what:

gunnutery
March 24, 2012, 02:31 PM
On another forum I check out, a former French soldier said that he guessed probably 90% of the French population couldn't even tell you what a FAMAS is even though it's been the standard issue rifle for more than 3 decades. "Gun culture" doesn't really exist in France I guess.

ZEN.45
March 24, 2012, 04:40 PM
On another forum I check out, a former French soldier said that he guessed probably 90% of the French population couldn't even tell you what a FAMAS is even though it's been the standard issue rifle for more than 3 decades.

I think he might have been exaggerating a bit, considering that France still had conscription 15 years ago.

"Gun culture" doesn't really exist in France I guess.

I'm not French, but I'm often in France and have a lot of friends there. I think the French "gun culture" is more hunting oriented. France has (by far) the most hunters in Europe.

xfyrfiter
March 24, 2012, 05:01 PM
If 8 guns equal an arsenal, then most on here have an armory.

Highgate
March 24, 2012, 06:50 PM
Laws - including gun laws - are mainly intended to scare off the people who MIGHT commit crimes.

Hardened criminals simply don't care about laws, and so will obtain guns from somewhere, even in 'gun free' countries.

So the arguments relating to gun control laws should really focus on the risk of non-criminals / minor criminals owning guns.

In the UK context I think I am happy knowing that most weirdos and the like will not be able to obtain gun licences and yet won't have much idea where to find a gun from true criminals.

At least most armed hardened criminals will be rational : armed weirdos scare me more.

Owen
March 24, 2012, 06:55 PM
Well, last I checked, and arsenal was a factory, and an armory was a storage facility.

exavid
March 24, 2012, 08:13 PM
You folks just have to remember the French are not bellicose. After all France has only won one war.










The French Revolution.

HankB
March 24, 2012, 08:40 PM
They may not have a gun culture, but the French have done some good weapon development in the past.

* 8mm Lebel, the first smokeless-powder cartridge to be adopted by a major country for its army.

* Quick-firing 75mm artillery piece; could fire 15 rounds/minute out to a range of 5 miles; allegedly 30 rounds/minute (!) with a crack crew was achieved for a short time!

* Dieudonne Saive, who "finished" Browning's Hi-Power design and is largely responsible for the FN-FAL rifle. (OK, he was actually Belgian, but his name sounds French!)

I have a nice WWII French rifle - issued to their front line troops, it's in excellent condition, having never been fired and dropped only once.

abq87120
March 24, 2012, 10:58 PM
When someone commits a crime with a gun, the people (responsible gun owners) who didn't do it are punished.

exavid
March 24, 2012, 11:55 PM
The French were also responsible for the worst machine gun in WWI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat

gunnutery
March 25, 2012, 12:05 AM
You folks just have to remember the French are not bellicose. After all France has only won one war.

They helped us win our revolution. Did they not win any of the wars with England?

Tipro
March 25, 2012, 12:10 AM
They helped us win our revolution. Did they not win any of the wars with England?
france won a whole slew of wars under napoleon. and then they were facing england austria russia a prussia and what is now italy.

After the death of fredrick the great the french were the elite fighting force of the world

gunnutery
March 25, 2012, 12:12 AM
Thanks.for reminding me about Napolean, I can't believe I forgot about him.

O C
March 25, 2012, 12:21 AM
Instead of stacking swivels on French rifles, they have tie down points for surrender flags.

Tipro
March 25, 2012, 12:53 AM
Instead of stacking swivels on French rifles, they have tie down points for surrender flags.
Oh my goodness the poor French will never live down ww2. A millennia of history forgotten. And I'm not even French!!

HGM22
March 25, 2012, 06:38 AM
The French won the 100 Years War I believe (hence no English territories on mainland Europe).

Also, despite popular perception, they fought ferociously in the Battle of France, but their strategy was largely flawed from the start. If I'm remembering right, there were multiple French concentrations that held out longer than expected, giving the British time for the Dunkirk evacuation.

To keep this on topic, I've gotta say I'd hate to be a French gun enthusiast right about now. Any idea if they have something like the NRA? Maybe its time for the NRA to go international?

Oh, and I'd love a MAS 36.

barnetmill
March 25, 2012, 07:19 AM
The French won the 100 Years War I believe (hence no English territories on mainland Europe).
The english under their Norman commanders were there for about a 100 yrs. I guess if they finally left it was victory for the French. The brits did win some impressive battles which is not the same a s winning a war. The English soldiers also quite literally spread havoc in france.

ZEN.45
March 25, 2012, 08:15 AM
I think it's basically about; 1) MEDIA and 2) POLITICIANS

MEDIA:

The main issue is 'SENSATION SELLS'. That's why '8 guns' are an 'arsenal', 'more then 2 criminals' are 'a mob' or 'a gang', a killer is always 'ruthless', a 'SA rifle' is an 'AK47' and every other weapon is always 'high capacity' or 'high power' or 'military'. If a journalist saw my weapons, he/she would accuse me of preparing the invasion of Luxembourg.

Bottom line ... 'sensation sells' and it's universal (check your own newspapers).



POLITICIANS:

Here's the secret of being a succesfull (not honorable) politician. When a tragedy involving firearms happens, the public (voters) will look at your response to it. You could propose something that works like 'better law enforcement', 'better justice', 'better follow-up on mental problems', ... but these things cost money you already spend. So you propose 'restrictive gun laws', it won't prevent another tragedy, but you can convince the public it will and it's easy on the budget.

It happenned in the UK, in Australia, in Belgium (only our politicians even failed at faking), in the US (remember the 10-round mags ?) and on this occasion it may happen in France.

ZEN.45
March 25, 2012, 08:16 AM
You folks just have to remember the French are not bellicose.
When you had to choose whether buying a thesaurus or a history book ... you made the wrong choice.



Instead of stacking swivels on French rifles, they have tie down points for surrender flags.

They're not laughing ...

http://s18.postimage.org/9uwaeywzt/graves.jpg

Pilot
March 25, 2012, 08:31 AM
The difference between the U.S. and Europe is staggering with regards to gun laws. Yes, there are many here who feel we should be just like Europe, and enact more stringent gun laws to control LEGAL firearms.

However, there is one big difference here beyond the 2A. It is the not so recent plethora of first time, and women gun buyers and shooters. These are the people that will help stop more useless gun legislation and restrictions of legal gun ownership.

bbuddtec
March 25, 2012, 09:11 AM
No matter how close the world gets to this idealistic dream, there will eventually be a country secretly manufacturing enough weapons to have a marauding force, and things will once again be in utter turmoil.

Turning our backs on technology is equivalent to extinction.

PS, things weren't so hot in the "stone age", were they?

Remember that news is as such... if there is none make some of it, people need to be entertained.

Carl N. Brown
March 25, 2012, 09:12 AM
OK, James Wright and Peter Rossi did a study based on a survey of 1874 "armed and dangerous" U.S. convicts (well armed and dangerous when they committed their crimes) and among other things asked them where they got the guns they used. The vast majority got their guns from "unregulated sources"--fellow criminals, fences, drug smugglers (who often smuggle guns too), personal theft, and less commonly from legal sources (and there they used relatives or girlfriends with no record to buy for them). 40% reported stealing guns (but only 12% stole for personal use) and sources stolen from ranged from manufacturers and truck shipments, to gunshops, police stations and army bases.

After the ban on handguns in UK 1997, the British Home Office study #298 published in 2006 almost ten years later dealt with the emerging criminal gun culture in UK: including the emergence of full-time armourers: criminals who make their living smuggling, fencing, repairing or making firearms for other criminals.

And I don't think the "Dogs of War"-type novels are complete fiction when they detail how arms are obtained with fake "end user certificates" and other black market subterfuges in Europe.

Outlaw any X desired by a large number of people, a black market in X will emerge beyond any governmental control. The legal X might be done away with, at the expense of creating a black market also patronised by formerly law-abiding citizens who lose respect for the law due to the ban. As one politician stated when the German Weimar Republic proposed a strict gun law, it does the dignity of the law no good to pass an unenforcable statute.

jad0110
March 25, 2012, 09:20 AM
I chuckled when I heard a tv report that said, with shock in the reporter's voice, "The shooter had THOUSANDS of rounds of ammunition...."

I heard a news anchor commenting on a FL man who had been arrested and what they found in his home. In a low, near whisper, she said ... "... and he had <pause for dramatic effect", over One Hundred Rounds of ammunition!", all the while annunciating every syllable like William Shatner playing Capt James T. Kirk. The other co-achor gasps, as if in stunned belief. The only way it would have been more ridiculous is if the anchor had said and did what she probably really wanted to all along, something like: "Oh my God, 100 rounds of ammunition!!! Guns and ammunition are soooo bad!!!! Waahahahahha!!" ... all this sputtered out in sentence fragments with hands flailing about. :p :D

I saw this in the break room at work, with many other people standing around watching this. I uttered the word "amateur" and everyone got a good laugh.

The second (maybe first) most shocking part of that article is the part where the pres diverted intelligence resources to spy on opponents and illegally tap newspaper phone lines. HOLY CRAP! I mean I know even the US isn't completely corruption free but how can the french trust their govt to take their guns from them if it clearly has the intention to break its own laws. And yet the people want even more lgun laws. Really awfully sad

I've talked to a few different folks from Europe over the years. One stated simply that most Europeans have a different view, or connection to their rulers than do most Americans. They have a greater trust of their government's than we do. For example, I do know in the UK that their are observation cameras scattered all over the nation (much more so than here), and most Brits don't seem to mind (they welcome it as they believe it is a sign that their rulers care about them and are keeping them safe). Also, aristocracies still exist in Europe (not to the extent they used to of course), where hunting for instance is nearly always a wealthy man's sport. The same could be said for gun ownership in general. The only people with guns are the State, the wealthy and criminals. "Common" folk like us rarely own guns in Europe, and it is generally frowned upon in European culture. I recall a thread here on THR recently where a British citizen stated that owning guns in their society is a privilege, not a right. That tell's a lot, doesn't it?

The State will grant the privilege if you have been a good, obedient little subject and you can prove a need (and self defense isn't considered a need).

AlexanderA
March 25, 2012, 10:18 AM
I've talked to a few different folks from Europe over the years. One stated simply that most Europeans have a different view, or connection to their rulers than do most Americans. They have a greater trust of their government's than we do.

I can tell you that in Greece, the exact opposite is the truth. Greeks assume that their government is incompetent and corrupt, and they're mostly correct. There's zero trust in government. Government is there to be milked. As for gun laws, the legislature passes all sorts of strict gun laws, which are then widely ignored.

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