conceal carry vs open carry


PDA






RM
February 14, 2004, 05:57 AM
Can someone explain what exactly are the differences between conceal carry and open carry? How many states allow open carry?

If you enjoyed reading about "conceal carry vs open carry" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Gray Peterson
February 14, 2004, 06:14 AM
Depends on your state.

Oregon state law has no prohibition on open carry, but allows cities and counties to regulate it if you do NOT have a CHL. Same in Missouri (they can opt out of open carry, but there's no CHL exemption, so you may face charges if you open carry on your LTC in Missouri in a city that forbids it, if the MOSC declares it constitutional).

Washington state law has no specific prohibition, but there's an "alarmed person" standard in RCW 9.41.270. Some cite examples of cases that have been cited don't apply specifically to just carrying a handgun in a holster. One case that was cited by people who were against open carrying is the State v. Spencer case. Only problem is, the guy was holding an AKM-47 and walking down the street with it. That's a LITTLE different than carrying around a handgun holstered.

I know New Mexico and Arizona allow open carry, Colorado, and Kentucky too.

Nevada does unless you're in Boulder City or North Las Vegas (grandfathered ordinance). Vermont does, Alaska does.

New Hampshire does allow open carry on foot only without a permit, and so does Alabama. Pennsylvania has the same rule, but a permit from ANY state exempts you from the prohibition against carrying a handgun in the car, and you cannot carry openly in a city of first class (Philadelphia) without a PA LTCF or other recognized permit.

Virginia has no open carry prohibition, but certain grandfathered ordinances exist, but they are not applicable to Virginia permit holders. There is legislation to completely preempt all gun laws including the grandfathered ones, but I'm not sure if it passed or where it's at now.

Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, and Illinois do not allow open carry, period, unless you're in your own home, business, etc.

Georgia allows open carry only with the firearms license for CCW. Same for Indiana, Tennessee, and Minnesota.

Rhode Island only allows open carry with a AG issued permit. The local permits (which are just as valid for CCW as AG issued permits) do not exempt from the anti-open carry laws, only the AG's permit does.

Not trying to be exhaustive, but that's the extent of my knowledge on open carry. :P

cdbeaver
February 14, 2004, 07:44 AM
Nebraska permits open carry, but NO concealed carry.

RWK
February 14, 2004, 08:40 AM
www.packing.org is probably the best venue to find state law re concealed and open carriage, particularly using their links to the various state government sites.

In Virginia, open carry is legal; however, some cities (e. g., Falls Church) have local laws against it. Further, a LOT will depend on the circumstances. For example, I suspect that carrying openly in Ballston Mall (Arlington County, Virginia) could cause the following scenario:
Little Suzie: “Mom, that man has a gun!”
Soccer Mom: “Oh my God, that man has a gun. Help, help, call the police, he has a gun, he is insane”!
Cops: After you are cuffed and your legal firearm is seized, “I am placing you under arrest.”
You: “But officer, open handgun carriage is legal in Virginia”
Lead Cop: Probably “I don’t know about that”, or perhaps “Yes it is, however, you are being charges with creating a public disturbance (or some similar offense)”, and maybe if you are very lucky “Here’s your handgun, sir. I have always favored Kimbers, but that’s a great looking Springfield. You’re lucky, I’m one of the few officers on this force who really is interested in firearms; the rest would have arrested you. Have a nice day”

Some years ago, an open Virginia (in Fairfax County) carrier reported (on TFL) no problems while shopping and dinning in Reston’s new mall; therefore, the scenario in the last paragraph could be completely wrong. But, is also could occur as “scripted” and, if it does, you will likely find yourself working hard to prove that your conduct was fully within the law. A great deal will likely depend on the knowledge and attitudes of the individual police officer and (if an arrest transpires) the individual prosecutor.

To summarize, in Virginia and elsewhere there is a LOT of “gray area” in open carriage. Obviously, there are some venues (Casper, Wyoming would be a good example) where there is far less likelihood of a problem than in a suburban, liberal, “Soccer Mom” setting. In addition, much can depend on the circumstances, such as hunting season with a hunter openly carrying a side arm when he pops into a fast-food place while driving home after a day in the field.

All of the above clearly is personal opinion. I would only caution that even in sates and localities where open carry is legal, a good deal depends:
1) On the individual circumstances,
2) On who it may “offend” (and perhaps their political “clout” or vehemence)
3) On the reaction of the first LEOs on the scene,
4) And finally on the attitude and the political aspirations of the local prosecutor (if it comes to that).

armoredman
February 14, 2004, 09:36 AM
Open carry is unremarkable in AZ. If the above scenario occured here, the rresponding officer would chit chat, wave and leave.
CCW is easy and cheap.
No waiting period, no registration, no license, no permit(other than CCW), open carry legal almost everywhere, state pre-emption law, no magazine limit, no restrictions on what you can carry, CCW of legal Class 3 legal, if you can afford, less people in the entire state than in NYC..... :D :D

tiberius
February 14, 2004, 11:35 AM
Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, and Illinois do not allow open carry, period, unless you're in your own home, business, etc.

To clarify in regards to TX, this only applies to handguns. The carrying of long guns is unregulated.

ARperson
February 14, 2004, 12:11 PM
Open Carry: carrying in such a manner that the firearm is visible in whole or in part to passers-by.

Concealed carry: no one knows...if you do it right.

Indiana requires a permit to carry. Period. But either form is legally acceptable. Whether or not you catch crap for the open form is debatable.

kbr80
February 14, 2004, 04:37 PM
Lead Cop: Probably “I don’t know about that”, or perhaps “Yes it is, however, you are being charges with creating a public disturbance (or some similar offense)”, and maybe if you are very lucky “Here’s your handgun, sir. I have always favored Kimbers, but that’s a great looking Springfield. You’re lucky, I’m one of the few officers on this force who really is interested in firearms; the rest would have arrested you. Have a nice day”

Exactly why I have lost respect for most Police Officers


You’re lucky, I’m one of the few officers on this force who really is interested in firearms; the rest would have arrested you. Have a nice day”

jimpeel
February 14, 2004, 07:22 PM
The difference between open carry and concealed carry is this:

If you are lawfully carrying a Glock-17 openly and a criminal is unlawfully carrying a Lorcin .380 POS concealed; he knows immediately how he can get an instant upgrade by walking up behind you and putting a .380 in the back of your head.

Any questions?

Standing Wolf
February 14, 2004, 09:48 PM
I'd rather carry openly than concealed: you can pack more gun more comfortably, and I believe it would do the nation good to see more law-abiding American citizens keeping and bearing arms.

P95Carry
February 14, 2004, 09:54 PM
I believe it would do the nation good to see more law-abiding American citizens keeping and bearing arms Agreed SW ... 100% ... but sadly, so many sheeple freak out these days .... so very hard to excercise this without fear of untoward sensationalism.:(

RM
February 14, 2004, 10:47 PM
Sorry to be so ignorant about these laws, but I am from Maryland where we have no conceal or open carry. What happens if your are carrying a concealed handgun, and it is hot and you want to take your jacket off, etc. so that the gun visible. Is this a problem? Must a concealed weapon always be fully concealed?
Also, "Nebraska allows open carry, but not conceal carry." If, anyone knows, what is the reasoning why one state would allow open carry, but not conceal carry, while another state would allow conceal carry but not open carry? Why do states choose one over the other?

Valkman
February 14, 2004, 11:35 PM
Nevada does unless you're in Boulder City or North Las Vegas (grandfathered ordinance).

Good point about those two towns - I don't think alot of people around here realize that if you don't have a CCW and drive into either one and have a gun in the vehicle, that there's nothing you can do to make yourself legal except hanging a U-turn and getting out of there. You can unload it, lock it, don't matter - you're illegal.

jimpeel
February 15, 2004, 01:58 AM
Also, "Nebraska allows open carry, but not conceal carry." If, anyone knows, what is the reasoning why one state would allow open carry, but not conceal carry, while another state would allow conceal carry but not open carry? Why do states choose one over the other?In the case of Nebraska, Colorado, et al, it is in the Constitution that CCW is barred.

In the case of CCW states that disallow open carry, it is usually the fault of the CCW law being poorly written.

Andrew Rothman
February 15, 2004, 03:30 AM
In MN, we get "Carry Permits."Without one, you can't carry either way. With one, you can carry either way.

Lately I've experimented with carrying OWB (instead of the usual SmartCarry). It's reassuring to know that should I accidentally show, it's perfectly legal.

shooter1
February 15, 2004, 05:43 AM
Jimpeel made an excellent point on open carry upgrades. I can carry either way, still I choose to carry concealed. I have no desire to make a primary target of myself by carrying openly. I'd just as soon have the element of surprise on my side.
Will

tyme
February 15, 2004, 12:31 PM
What happens if your are carrying a concealed handgun, and it is hot and you want to take your jacket off, etc. so that the gun visible. Is this a problem? Must a concealed weapon always be fully concealed?
MPayne is lucky he lives in a more reasonable state. There are two types of states. One type will hassle you at a minimum (after soccermom 32159681 calls police and screeches about someone with a gun); in the other type it's no big deal. If the handgun is merely printing, soccermom 32159681 may not even notice; more observant people might be aware of ccw laws and may politely inform you and advise you to be more careful.

As for laws making open carry legal and concealed not, and vice versa, it's really a political and social issue. Open carry panics the sheeple in states with many large urban areas, so they've banned it. Concealed carry bans are throwbacks to when everyone open carried and concealed carry was perceived as malintent.

I personally wouldn't choose to urban open carry, but I'd much prefer it were legal here. The negatives effects are limited to individuals who open carry, and that's their choice. IMHO, it makes you a target for organized criminals (particularly if a robbery is about to go down... they'll neutralize you first). In some open carry states (not all), open carry also tends to make you fair game for terry stops and "officer safety" frisks.

JCPershing
February 15, 2004, 11:41 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, "Nebraska allows open carry, but not conceal carry." If, anyone knows, what is the reasoning why one state would allow open carry, but not conceal carry, while another state would allow conceal carry but not open carry? Why do states choose one over the other?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the case of Nebraska, Colorado, et al, it is in the Constitution that CCW is barred.
************************************
FYI - not sure on CO, but the NE constitution doesn't mention CCW. In fact, the first article of the NE constitution includes a very clear declaration of the right to keep and bear arms for, among other things, defense of self. I won't try to quote the full list, but it is extensive.

The NE CCW prohibition is in the statutes and, in my humble opinion, is in direct violation of the state constitution. The law includes an affirmative defense, which in effect means you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent, in that you had some valid reason - which the judge agrees with - for being armed.

Oh, and while open carry is legal in most of the state, in Omaha (the largest city) you need to go through a class and get a card to carry openly. Largely for security guards, and few private citizens bother with it.

John

jimpeel
February 15, 2004, 11:49 PM
OUCH!

I stand corrected. I got caught thinking again.

This subject has been discussed HERE (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26696&highlight=nebraska) and I even participated in it and still went braindead. I, in fact, posted the following:We can open carry but the law specifically outlaws CCW.

From findlaw.com: http://statutes.unicam.state.ne.us/Corpus/statutes/chap28/R2812002.html

28-1202
Carrying concealed weapon; penalty; affirmative defense.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries a weapon or weapons concealed on or about his or her person such as a revolver, pistol, bowie knife, dirk or knife with a dirk blade attachment, brass or iron knuckles, or any other deadly weapon commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon.

(2) It shall be an affirmative defense that the defendant was engaged in any lawful business, calling, or employment at the time he or she was carrying any weapon or weapons and the circumstances in which such person was placed at the time were such as to justify a prudent person in carrying the weapon or weapons for the defense of his or her person, property, or family.

(3) Carrying a concealed weapon is a Class I misdemeanor.

(4) In the case of a second or subsequent conviction under this section, carrying a concealed weapon is a Class IV felony.

Source:
Laws 1977, LB 38, § 234; Laws 1984, LB 1095, § 1.
Annotations:
In order to be a deadly weapon per se under subsection (1) of this section, the weapon must be one specifically enumerated in the statute. Whether an object or weapon not specifically named in the statute is a deadly weapon is a question of fact to be determined by the trier of fact, and the resolution of that fact question will depend on the evidence adduced as to the use or intended use of the object or weapon. State v. Williams, 218 Neb. 57, 352 N.W.2d 576 (1984).

Whether an object or weapon not specifically enumerated in subsection (1) of this section was a deadly weapon is a question of fact to be decided by the trier of fact. State v. Kanger, 215 Neb. 128, 337 N.W.2d
422 (1983).

Section 28-1202(1), R.S.Supp.,1978, combined with the definition of "deadly weapon" found in section 28-109, R.S.Supp.,1978, is sufficiently definite to meet the requirements of the first and fifth amendments to the U.S. Constitution and Art. I, section 3, of the Nebraska Constitution. State v. Valencia, 205 Neb. 719, 290 N.W.2d 181.

If you enjoyed reading about "conceal carry vs open carry" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!