How to ship firearms


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dogtown tom
March 21, 2012, 11:54 PM
Federal law allows ANYONE to ship a firearm. (Your state law may differ)
What is below is what is allowed by Federal law.

What is a firearm?
Well, its both the complete firearm and the frame or receiver of a disassembled firearm. It's internet myth that a disassembled firearm magically loses its legal status when field stripped. Whoever promotes or repeats the myth that it is "just machine parts" is a complete and total idiot and should never be consulted about firearms again....because that is contrary to Federal law. (not to mention common sense)

Who can you ship to?
All interstate shipments of firearms must be addressed to a licensed firearms dealer (often called an FFL). The exceptions are:
1. when you ship to yourself at an address in another state and
2. the return of a firearm you sent to a manufacturer to be repaired.

Federal law allows you to ship a firearm to a resident of the same state (intrastate) as long as you have no reason to believe that the recepient is a prohibited person.

How do I know the recepient is a licensed dealer?There is no requirement for a nonlicensee (mere mortals) to have an actual copy of the receiving dealers FFL. You can verify that the recepient is a dealer through the ATF FFL EZcheck. (When FFL's ship we are required to have a copy of the receiving dealers license before we can ship)

Be aware that some dealers refuse to accept shipments from nonlicensees as their personal business policy. Usually this is because they are terrified that the package will arrive with an RPG inside and no information as to who shipped it. Although it is not required by law, it is common courtesy to include a copy of your drivers license (for nonlicensees) or a copy of your FFL (for dealers). Dealers are required to record the identity of the person from they received the firearm from.....and a DL or FFL makes this easy. If you refuse to comply with the request for a DL or FFL.....then don't ship the gun. As evidenced by recent threads, the dealer may refuse to accept the package or delay the transfer to the buyer until he has the documents he requested.

Newspaper is for dolts:cuss:, pros use bubble wrap:D
When you prepare your firearm for shipment, avoid newspaper like the plague. It crushes easily, provides little protective value and if wadded tightly....weighs a ton and weight adds $$$$ to your shipping costs.

A good rule of thumb is to package the gun as if it were a prized family heirloom. Put yourself in the shoes of the buyer.....who deserves to get the gun as depicted in the auction/WTS forum, etc

I've received guns wrapped in newspaper, vinyl float tubes, foam mattresses, Saran Wrap, plastic WalMart bags, baby diapers, bath towels.....obviously the shipper does not know the physical nature of package delivery or they just flat dont care whether the gun arrives in one piece. If your shipment is damaged, both UPS and FedEx will deny claims if you do not use PROPER packing materials (and newspaper is not one of them;)).

Where do i get cheap packing materials?
Try a gun store. They will have loads of excellent USED packing materials: bubble wrap, packing peanuts, kraft paper, air pillows, etc.

As far as packaging, the only Federal law you need to be aware of is identifying the contents as a "firearm"...........DON'T! This means you cannot mark "Fragile...EXPENSIVE GUN INSIDE" on the outside of the box. It also means you don't ship that Remington 700 in the factory cardboard box that has a giant REMINGTON in big green letters on the outside. (this is secret code for STEAL ME NOW) Simply slide the factory box inside another cardboard box. UPS and FedEx will not accept boxes with paper wrappers, although the USPS will.......but don't do it. Your label can easily be torn off.

Where do I get a cardboard box big enough to ship a rifle/shotgun?
Again, try a gun store. I throw out (into my Al Gore recycle bin) cardboard boxes every day. I always have extras stored in my garage. If you are shipping a $1,000 rifle or shotgun don't go get all frugal and jam that gun in a box you handmade from fifteen free UPS boxes that you taped together with duct tape......consider spending $10-15 on a plastic Plano or Dosko hard case. Consider removing the barrel from shotguns, as a short box is more rigid than a long box and that is better.

So, where can I ship my firearm?
USPS- will accept rifles and shotguns from ANYONE. Handguns and other firearms like frames, receivers, AR lowers are not mailable unless you are a licensed dealer or manufacturer. Even holders of an 03FFL "Collector of Curios & Relics" cannot mail or recieve by mail, a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun.

There is no requirement to notify USPS that you are shippping a rifle or shotgun. There are no forms to give them, you do not need to show them the FFL of the receiving dealer.

The ONLY persons REQUIRED to notify USPS that they are shipping a firearms are licensed dealers and manufacturers....and then only when shipping a handgun. If you are not a dealer and are asked to sign a Form 1508......don't do it! You would be falsifying a Federal document and the USPS clerk who asked you to do so is an idiot.

UPS- Will accept firearms from ANYONE as long as you follow their firearm shipping policies: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun
In short, You cannot ship firearms from a UPS Store, or third party retailer....you have to ship from a UPS Service Center. UPS policy says you must notify them that you are shipping a firearm. Federal law only requires notification if you are shipping interstate to a nonlicensee. Generally thats a Federal crime:D (You can ship a firearm to yourself in another state...but only you can ship it and only you can open it)

UPS allows rifles and shotguns to go "Ground". Handguns must go "Next Day". if you choose to ignore UPS policies expect to get nada on any insurance claim for loss, damage or theft.

FedEx-Will accept firearms from ANYONE as long as you follow their firearm shipping policies:http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guide/terms/express-ground/
FedEx has changed their firearms policies three times in the last year. It appears that you can still ship from ANY FedEx Office location.

FedEx allows rifles and shotguns to go "Ground". Handguns must go "Priority Overnight". If you choose to ignore FedEx policies expect to get nada on any insurance claim for loss, damage or theft.
FedEx requires you notify them when you are shipping a firearm.

It's in a box, what do I do now?
Go to USPS.com, UPS.com and Fedex.com and compare rates!
You'll need to know the weight, box dimensions and destination zip code to get a price.

You can then:
Take it to the carrier or post office and pay at the counter OR..............better yet, pay for and print a shipping label from home. This is CHEAPER than doing it at the post office.

My recommendations:
USPS- ALWAYS go Priority Mail with Insurance for FULL VALUE and Signature Confirmation. "Parcel Post" is cheaper but takes MUCH longer to get to the destination........the longer its in transit, the more opportunity to get lost, damaged or stolen. To me it isn't worth the small difference in price.
As no notification is EVER required at USPS.....they are the option with the smallest hassle factor.

UPS/FedEx- For rifles and shotguns I use UPS or FedEx Ground.....its usually cheaper than USPS Priority Mail and they offer true "tracking". Again, get insurance for the full value and signature confirmation. NOTE:USC 478.31 (d) "No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm" What does this mean? You pay for Signature Confirmation.

Hey! UPS & FedEx want to charge me $60 to ship a handgun!
Then don't do it;).
Find a local dealer who will ship it for you.......via USPS Priority Mail. Handguns that will fit in a USPS medium Flat Rate Box with $1000 worth of insurance and Signature Confirmation ships for less than $27. If the dealer tacks on a reasonable fee (I charge $10) then you pay almost half of what you would pay if you did it yourself......and the receiving dealer won't pitch a hissy fit because you forgot to enclose your drivers license.:D

If you enjoyed reading about "How to ship firearms" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
nicktulloh
January 8, 2013, 09:17 AM
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

dogtown tom
January 8, 2013, 09:03 PM
nicktulloh A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
Nick, read the actual citations to the US Code and you'll discover the statement in red is not true. Notification to the common carrier is only required when shipping interstate to a nonlicensee.

koxx.dta
January 9, 2013, 11:05 PM
what about moving with a rifle? would i just ship it to my new address or take it in the car? or dealer to dealer?

random_gun
January 10, 2013, 06:22 AM
What about UPS/FedEx pick up?

macadore
January 31, 2013, 10:34 PM
If I understand this, I can sell and ship a rifle in Texas to another resident in Texas and neither of us has to have an FFL?

dogtown tom
January 31, 2013, 10:44 PM
koxx.dta what about moving with a rifle? would i just ship it to my new address or take it in the car? or dealer to dealer?
Federal law allows you to ship the firearm yourself, addressed to yourself.
Same with taking it in your car.

Why would you ship dealer to dealer when you can do so yourself?


random_gun What about UPS/FedEx pick up?
I believe both UPS/FedEx allow firearm shipments from daily picup accounts, but not from "on call" pickups.


macadore If I understand this, I can sell and ship a rifle in Texas to another resident in Texas and neither of us has to have an FFL?
Yep.

vit
February 1, 2013, 02:22 PM
UPS policy says you must notify them that you are shipping a firearm.
I have a UPS account and ship from home - the online forms do not contain any area where such information could be entered.

NavyLCDR
February 1, 2013, 02:24 PM
I have a UPS account and ship from home - the online forms do not contain any area where such information could be entered.
That does not change the UPS terms of service which requires you to notify them that a shipment contains a firearm.

vit
February 1, 2013, 02:36 PM
But how? I don't even see the driver who picks it up.

Shadow 7D
February 1, 2013, 03:05 PM
DMM CHANGED

You can now MAIL (USPS) handguns through the post office with a Class III FFL (C&R)
If you don't have a FFL (and if you are asking, you don't)
nothing new here.

NavyLCDR
February 1, 2013, 06:44 PM
DMM CHANGED

You can now MAIL (USPS) handguns through the post office with a Class III FFL (C&R)
If you don't have a FFL (and if you are asking, you don't)
nothing new here.

Do you have a citation for that change?

http://pe.usps.com/search/jsp/search/vv_docread.jsp?k2dockey=http%3A%2F%2Fpe.usps.com%2Ftext%2Fdmm300%2F601.htm%40PE_DMM300_HTML_5&serverSpec=56.0.145.56:9920&QueryParser=Simple&querytext=%28firearm%29&dtype=2#hit0

12.1.5 Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms, licensed dealers of firearms, and licensed importers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

I don't see licensed collectors listed as authorized to mail handguns.

Shadow 7D
February 3, 2013, 05:00 AM
601.12.1.1(b)
Damn, and that was off the top of my head

a good explanation, basically it extends the FFL1,2,4-7 to 3

1USPS DMM revision 2.1.2 Handguns a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.

BUT they've put in the wrong paragraph, g. which refers to C&Rs, NOT antiques:

USPS DMM revision: 12.1.1 Definitions g. Curio and relic collector means an individual licensed by ATF to transfer or receive only those firearms de*fined as curios or relics by ATF under Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.11.

h. Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shot*gun/pistol that is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and that cannot use fixed am*munition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by re*placing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combina*tion thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, ........


And the USPS revision seems to refer to C&Rs and Museum certified curios and relics as two seperate categories of handguns


USPS DMM revision: 12.1.2 Handguns b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b that are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be cu*rios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.


Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.11. Definitions

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm

NavyLCDR
February 3, 2013, 12:38 PM
601.12.1.1(b)
Damn, and that was off the top of my head

a good explanation, basically it extends the FFL1,2,4-7 to 3

http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm

I stand corrected, thank you!

dnotarianni
February 6, 2013, 12:37 PM
OK after all the subsections and periods and the rest of the BS can I as an 03 holder ship a modern pistol to a 07 FFL with the USPS?:banghead:
Dave

stoney667
February 14, 2013, 03:19 PM
TTT, Can someone answer dnotarianni's question. I to am curious on this answer.

NavyLCDR
February 14, 2013, 04:32 PM
OK after all the subsections and periods and the rest of the BS can I as an 03 holder ship a modern pistol to a 07 FFL with the USPS?:banghead:
Dave

Not legally.

dnotarianni
February 15, 2013, 08:17 AM
Per the ATF and talking to a human there as an 03 I can ship 03 firearms with USPS but not modern firearms to an 07. You can only ship firearms with the USPS that you are licensed to deal in. Makes sense but at the same time it doesn't. Then again what did you expect from the Fed dealing with 2 fed agencies ATF+USPS
Dave

HSPC
February 16, 2013, 03:04 AM
Bookmarked Thanks

RetiredUSNChief
February 16, 2013, 04:50 AM
Now THERE is some detail and clear explanations/sources.

Many thanks!

JH225
February 18, 2013, 11:33 AM
a good explanation, basically it extends the FFL1,2,4-7 to 3



http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm

So where in the link you posted do you see that it is OK for an 03 C&R to ship or receive C&R eligible handguns?

It specifically says that the C&R handgun must ALSO meet the criteria of being an antique made prior to 1899.

I very recently spoke with a BATFE agent and he was confused as I was with USPS contradictory wording of the USPS regs. He stated that you would face no federal charges as you are perfectly within your rights as an 03 holder, but he couldn't speak as to what some inspector at the post office would do if the package was flagged. And we all know that if we contacted 3 people at the post office, we would get 3 different answers.

MarkM1911
February 24, 2013, 11:43 AM
I have a question regarding shipment that I have not found an answer to yet:

I am a private seller here in IL. I sold a rifle from my collection to a gentleman on Gunbroker who happens to hold an FFL license in TN. He provided me with his FFL, but he would like me to ship the rifle to his home address which is not listed on his FFL paperwork. Is this legal, and where can I find more information on this?

btg3
February 24, 2013, 01:43 PM
...to ship the rifle to his home address which is not listed on his FFL paperwork

FWIW, found this:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-conduct-of-business.html#license-verification
Q: Must a multi-licensed business submit a certified copy of each of its licenses when acquiring firearms?

No. It need only provide the seller a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, and license number and expiration date for each location.

[27 CFR 478.94]
----------
This causes me to question whether the person or location or both must be licensed, and when multiple licenses are required. Personally, I would not ship to any address which cannot be found on the FFL license, when shipping to an FFL is required.

random_gun
February 24, 2013, 07:55 PM
for the purpose of returning a firearm, is there any difference before and after the transfer has been made?
Say if I ordered a firearm online, shipped to a local FFL, finished the transfer and then noticed something is wrong. Does it make any difference if the issue was spotted before the transfer?
I heard it's easier for everyone if the issue was identified before the transfer (aka always inspect the firearm before proceeding to transfer), but why exactly?

MarkM1911
February 24, 2013, 08:07 PM
Btg3,

Thanks for providing that. I read through it a few times myself, and the language there is not making me feel any better about shipping a rifle to location not listed on the FFL.

Thanks.

Popeye1959
March 28, 2013, 10:42 AM
So can I, as an Illinois non FFL holder, ship a rifle for repairs to a non-manufacturer in Georgia via the USPS and can they send it back? UPS? Or is this going to involve FFL's What if the repair place has an FFL? Can we ship back and forth? I so need to get my FFL

Bubbles
March 28, 2013, 10:51 AM
If the recipient is accepting firearms for repair he needs an FFL. He doesn't have to be a manufacturer; a Type 01 dealer license will cover it.

CE310QT
April 8, 2013, 07:02 PM
wow...complicated.

Hawaii Guy
April 12, 2013, 03:00 PM
Aloha,

So, as I read the very first posting,

I, as a Non FFL person Can mail via USPS Priority Mail

a handgun to a FFL liscensed person as long as I include a

Driver's License of other Government issued ID?

NavyLCDR
April 12, 2013, 04:38 PM
Aloha,

So, as I read the very first posting,

I, as a Non FFL person Can mail via USPS Priority Mail

a handgun to a FFL liscensed person as long as I include a

Driver's License of other Government issued ID?
No. It is against US Postal Regulations for a non-FFL to mail a handgun via US Postal Service.

Hawaii Guy
April 12, 2013, 05:10 PM
Aloha,

The reason I asked is because according to the local PD, if I sell a firearm,

long or short, to a buyer out of state, the shipping FFL MUST register that

firearm in his name and then send it out.

That means he has to stand in line for several hours to Apply for the

Application to Acquire said firearm, Wait 14 days, get the Permit to Acquire

and then get the firearm from me and then finally send it out. He HAS to stand in line each time.

Then he has to send the PD a letter saying he doesn't have it.

Hawaii laws have NO PROVISION to UN register a firearm.

As a result, my FFL says it is Waaaay too much Hassle for him just to

send a gun out of state FFL to FFL. He says it's not worth what he charges.

He can think of better ways to waste his time.

Is there any Provision for me, a non FFL to send a gun to a FFL and Not

be illegal?

Thank You

btg3
April 12, 2013, 05:17 PM
You may ship via Fedex to an FFL. You do not need an FFL on your end.

As others at THR have recommended, it may be helpful to go to the fedex website and print a copy of their info to take with you for the benefit of the fedex workers that are poorly informed.

Hawaii Guy
April 12, 2013, 06:48 PM
Thank You

Yes, I can. I just printed their rules out AND

I called FedEx. I Actually got a guy in Dallas instead of an asian country.

He knew Exactly what I was talking about and Confirmed that as long as

the receipiant is an FFL, I'm good to go.

Now the only problem is How Much it's going to cost depending on Where

the receiver is.

NavyLCDR
April 12, 2013, 11:49 PM
You can also ship the gun by UPS. You just can't use the US Postal Service.

jaydubb
April 23, 2013, 11:20 AM
If I'm reading this right, then I can safely mail a pistol to myself.

Here's my situation, perhaps you all can tell me if there is something I am missing?

I live in Wisconsin. Travelling to visit my mother in California shortly.

I would like to mail my personal handgun to myself at her address, so it's there when I arrive.

The gun will not be sold or transfered, but I don't legally reside at her address.

Any problems with that?

Bubbles
April 24, 2013, 10:04 AM
Federal law prohibits non-FFL's from shipping a handgun using the US Postal Service. The only legal options for non-FFL's to ship handguns are UPS and FedEx, both of which have their own policies requiring that handguns from non-FFL's be sent 1) overnight, and 2) only to an FFL.

http://www.fedex.com/us/freight/rulestariff/prohibited_articles.html

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

Pripyat
July 21, 2013, 08:49 PM
I was just reviewing FedEx policies in regards to shipping a rifle/shotgun and came across this:

Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service.

Has this changed since the original post? The original post states that long rifles/shotguns can be shipped via FedEx Ground.

NavyLCDR
July 21, 2013, 11:45 PM
I was just reviewing FedEx policies in regards to shipping a rifle/shotgun and came across this:



Has this changed since the original post? The original post states that long rifles/shotguns can be shipped via FedEx Ground.
Yes. Fedex added more restrictions to their policies either last year or this year. UPS did too. Surprisingly, US Post Office actually loosened their regulations a little bit regarding mailing rifles and shotguns - or at least more specifically declared their policy in the Domestic Mail Manual. If a rifle or shotgun is going to an FFL or being mailed to yourself, you can mail it US Post Office yourself.

dogtown tom
July 27, 2013, 02:26 PM
NavyLCDR Quote:
Originally Posted by Pripyat
Has this changed since the original post? The original post states that long rifles/shotguns can be shipped via FedEx Ground.

Yes. Fedex added more restrictions to their policies either last year or this year. UPS did too.....
Nothing has changed.
Both of you only read the tariff for FedEx Express service....it requires Priority Overnight delivery.

If you read the tariff for FedEx Ground it clearly allows rifles and shotguns to go via Ground service.



Surprisingly, US Post Office actually loosened their regulations a little bit regarding mailing rifles and shotguns - or at least more specifically declared their policy in the Domestic Mail Manual. If a rifle or shotgun is going to an FFL or being mailed to yourself, you can mail it US Post Office yourself.
That has always been allowed.

jr_roosa
July 27, 2013, 08:41 PM
If you read the tariff for FedEx Ground it clearly allows rifles and shotguns to go via Ground service.

Just sent a rifle to a gunsmith in another state by FedEx Ground a couple of weeks ago. $22 and it got there in 4 days or so safe and sound.

I had to go to the "FedEx Hub" that is actually closer to my house than the strip mall FedEx Kinkos type stores, which aren't allowed to ship firearms.

Took about 10 minutes, and most of that was filling out the shipping form.

At the end of the game, he will ship it back to me the same way, FedEx to my door, but maybe a slightly higher cost since the insurance will now include all the custom work I had done in the new value of the rifle.

-J.

GBExpat
July 27, 2013, 08:45 PM
FWIW, I have an online account with UPS and, in the past, they have picked up both longguns and/or ammo at my rural home. No daily pickup here, just an online UPS account with an assigned account number and a Mastercard on-file.

NavyLCDR
July 27, 2013, 10:46 PM
You are correct. The FedEx Ground Tariff does allow for shipment of non-handguns via ground service. My mistake. I was reading the FedEx Express tariff which states this on page 7:

"C. Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot
ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express
Drop Box."

There is no difference between handguns and non-handguns in the Express Tariff. I was just reading the wrong document....

http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guide/terms/express-ground/index.html

jungleking
August 19, 2013, 04:40 AM
I have an FFL03 and live in an apartment. If memory serves me correctly, UPS, FEDEX, and USPS require signature confirmation for firearms, handguns especially. Most of the time I would not be home when the delivery guy arrives so it's the fun shuffle to catch the person over the next few days. Am I able to re route to a pick up location so as to alleviate this headache. And to avoid the prying eyes of the wife?

Just curious because I would like to purchase a few eligible firearms soon.

Thanks!

dogtown tom
August 19, 2013, 07:59 AM
While UPS, FedEx and USPS will be happy to hold the package at their facility, very few will let you reroute unless you pay extra for that service.

Typically shippers will not permit their shipments to be rerouted due to security concerns, and block the recepients ability to do so.

jungleking
August 19, 2013, 11:49 PM
Thank you, I'll look into it further and see what I can find for each carrier.

Bubbles
August 20, 2013, 09:31 AM
If memory serves me correctly, UPS, FEDEX, and USPS require signature confirmation for firearms, handguns especially.
While they may require it, you wouldn't believe the number of boxes that are simply left stacked on the porch (we're a home-based FFL) by all 3 carriers.

jungleking
August 21, 2013, 11:45 PM
While they may require it, you wouldn't believe the number of boxes that are simply left stacked on the porch (we're a home-based FFL) by all 3 carriers.
This is the other thing that concerns me. I've had non firearm related packages left in front of my door that required a signature and were expensive merchandise. One of the many reasons I would like to route to a pick up location.

cibach
August 29, 2013, 11:38 AM
I just spoke to my local ffl and was told long guns don't aren't required to come through an ffl. He said it can come straight seller to buyer? Doesn't seem right?? Is that within state only? I'm in Louisiana


Chris Ibach

NavyLCDR
August 29, 2013, 01:33 PM
I just spoke to my local ffl and was told long guns don't aren't required to come through an ffl. He said it can come straight seller to buyer? Doesn't seem right?? Is that within state only? I'm in Louisiana


Chris Ibach

If the buyer and seller are residents of the same state, neither a handgun nor a rifle is required to pass through an FFL, unless state law requires it. I am 99% certain Louisiana does not require it. If either a handgun or a rifle is being shipped between residents of different states, both must go through an FFL, even if the two states in question are contiguous to each other, and even if the buyer and seller are related to each other.

18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5) are the Federal laws regarding transfer of firearms between private parties.

olympios
August 29, 2013, 09:27 PM
Anyone familiar with shipping across the borders? I would like to ship my own shotgun to Greece (and keep it there). Delta airlines told me I can take it with me as long as it is in a locking hard case and also have a license/permit from the local police(!!!). I would rather have it shipped there in advance, via USPS or FEDEX/UPS.
If any of you is familiar with this it will help a lot. Calling the above carriers I expect to get those... "Sorry, I'm not familiar with it, maybe you need to contact ATF, FBI and CIA first!"
Than you.

salmonfisherman
September 11, 2013, 07:20 PM
from the sound of things it is illegal to ship my AR rifle to myself in another state.

NavyLCDR
September 11, 2013, 11:21 PM
from the sound of things it is illegal to ship my AR rifle to myself in another state.
Not illegal at all. Just against UPS and FEDEX company policy. Since an AR-15 is still considered to be just an ordinary rifle by the US Post Office, you can mail it to yourself, in care of another person, in another state via US Postal Service so long as the rifle is still legal to possess in the destination state.

JRWhit
September 24, 2013, 09:31 PM
As a soon to be new guy to the dealers club. Are there any other requirements when a firearm is sold via internet, and then shipped to an ffl.
If i got this right, after verifying the other dealers ffl, I ship to them enclosing a copy of DL or FFL copy. What records are required from my end. Info on the FFL shipped to only, or also info on the actual purchaser of the firearm?
Is there any sort of transfer form when shipping to the FFL from an FFL?

dogtown tom
September 25, 2013, 02:41 PM
JRWhit As a soon to be new guy to the dealers club. Are there any other requirements when a firearm is sold via internet, and then shipped to an ffl.
If you ship a handgun via USPS you are required to submit a USPS Form 1508 to the post office.


If i got this right, after verifying the other dealers ffl, I ship to them enclosing a copy of DL or FFL copy.
If you are a dealer it is a long standing courtesy to include a copy of your FFL with the shipment. Many dealers ask for nonlicensees to include a copy of their DL.


What records are required from my end.
You record the disposition in your bound book.


Info on the FFL shipped to only, or also info on the actual purchaser of the firearm? The bound book only cares about disposition to licensees (you'll get a copy of their FFL) or to nonlicensees (they'll complete a 4473).

When I ship to the buyer, the box is addressed to the receiving dealer and the buyers name and phone# is included.



Is there any sort of transfer form when shipping to the FFL from an FFL?
No.
Most will include an invoice or packing slip.

PowerShot
November 6, 2013, 11:44 PM
So I just received by UPS some mail-order ammo from a place in South Carolina, and it came in a box with these markings (photo attached):

Basically, a large black and white diamond sticker with another label-sticker underneath that reads

UN 0012
SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
INERT PROJECTILE

.. and also printed underneath that, onto the cardboard, the phrase "UN IDENTIFICATION NUMBER".

Does the "UN" refer to United Nations, meaning its proper for me to be sitting here with my mouth hanging open, or is it something else?

NavyLCDR
November 7, 2013, 12:25 AM
So I just received by UPS some mail-order ammo from a place in South Carolina, and it came in a box with these markings (photo attached):

Basically, a large black and white diamond sticker with another label-sticker underneath that reads

UN 0012
SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
INERT PROJECTILE

.. and also printed underneath that, onto the cardboard, the phrase "UN IDENTIFICATION NUMBER".

Does the "UN" refer to United Nations, meaning its proper for me to be sitting here with my mouth hanging open, or is it something else?
Yes, it means United Nations Identification Number. Why should your mouth be hanging open? It's a new labeling system that has been agreed upon by all the member nations for hazardous materials so that every country can recognize the markings. It standardizes everything from compressed gasses, toxic materials, explosives, radiation hazards, etc.

The UN Identification Number is the specific item being shipped, in this case small arms ammunition.

This system replaces the ORM-D markings that used to be United States specific.

PowerShot
November 7, 2013, 03:34 AM
Mouth hanging open because ...

1) The ammunition shipment was internal to the United States (not international)

2) Numerous other shipments this year from other suppliers had no such UN markings.

3) Most importantly, the UN is intractably corrupt and openly hostile to human liberty and the US constitution. That they are allowed to have any part in defining how ammunition is transported within the United States is an obvious foot-hold for control.

Changing stickers and labels is useless, but does serve to propagandize the population to the idea that the UN somehow has a legitimate role in ammunition distribution (hence control), as a sort of advertising.

Was my ammunition purchase reported and logged in a United Nations database? No way to know. No redress since they are unelected and unaccountable.

NavyLCDR
November 7, 2013, 05:02 AM
Mouth hanging open because ...

1) The ammunition shipment was internal to the United States (not international)

The US is simply adopting internationally recognized labelling for hazardous materials so that when we receive hazardous materials shipments from other countries also agreeing to the labeling scheme, firefighters and other emergency personnel have a greater chance of know what that shipment that is on fire on the interstate contains regardless of what country it came from.

2) Numerous other shipments this year from other suppliers had no such UN markings.

Earlier this year the new international markings were optional. Either now, or in the near future, they become our mandatory standard.

3) Most importantly, the UN is intractably corrupt and openly hostile to human liberty and the US constitution. That they are allowed to have any part in defining how ammunition is transported within the United States is an obvious foot-hold for control.

I tend to agree with the first sentence. The second sentence is nothing more than conspiracy theory with very little support to it.

Changing stickers and labels is useless, but does serve to propagandize the population to the idea that the UN somehow has a legitimate role in ammunition distribution (hence control), as a sort of advertising.

Changing stickers and labels serves a very real purpose. It reduces cost, for one thing. An international shipment received into the US or transported outside the US will no longer have to be relabelled to meet the new country of destination's standards because they will likely be the same. It also reduces the chances of mislabelling. You may think it is useless until water is used to extinguish a fire which causes an explosion because the shipment contained a water reactive material that was either mislabelled or the firefighters could not understand the non-standard labelling.

Was my ammunition purchase reported and logged in a United Nations database? No way to know. No redress since they are unelected and unaccountable.

The new hazardous material marking requirements in no way, shape or form has any affect on this consipracy theory.

PowerShot
November 7, 2013, 09:15 PM
The shipments are internal to the US, not international. Do other countries in fact label it the same way as per the United Nations?

How many water reactive shipments have caught fire because firefighters couldn't read the label? Ammunition is not such a substance. What hazard is there in a box of ammunition that warrants special attention? The flammable gunpowder is individually wrapped about as securely as one could imagine, small amounts each separately sealed in brute-tough little containers. I bet a bottle of mouthwash is more likely to burn.

Calling something a conspiracy theory doesn't affect its truth or falsity. Curious thing to say given the UN's history of disarming populations, attempting to disarm populations, and discussing how best to disarm populations.

At least we agree the UN is intractably corrupt and hostile to human liberty and the US Constitution -- things that point away from conspiracy to disarm popu ... oh, wait ...

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/09/27/what-the-united-nations-arms-trade-treaty-means-to-you/

Still don't know if mail order ammunition is being reported to a UN database, if not by sellers, by the shippers. US Post Office photographs each piece of mail and retains the record, the question is where else does the information go.

mgkdrgn
November 13, 2013, 05:16 PM
The shipments are internal to the US, not international. Do other countries in fact label it the same way as per the United Nations?

How many water reactive shipments have caught fire because firefighters couldn't read the label? Ammunition is not such a substance. What hazard is there in a box of ammunition that warrants special attention? The flammable gunpowder is individually wrapped about as securely as one could imagine, small amounts each separately sealed in brute-tough little containers. I bet a bottle of mouthwash is more likely to burn.

Calling something a conspiracy theory doesn't affect its truth or falsity. Curious thing to say given the UN's history of disarming populations, attempting to disarm populations, and discussing how best to disarm populations.

At least we agree the UN is intractably corrupt and hostile to human liberty and the US Constitution -- things that point away from conspiracy to disarm popu ... oh, wait ...

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/09/27/what-the-united-nations-arms-trade-treaty-means-to-you/

Still don't know if mail order ammunition is being reported to a UN database, if not by sellers, by the shippers. US Post Office photographs each piece of mail and retains the record, the question is where else does the information go.

As a former HazMat shipping specialist ....

The lessons learned that put the HazMat regs we have in place today were paid for in blood. They are not there because some pencil neck government official had nothing better to do that afternoon.

Ammunition is NOT sent via the mail, so there is nothing for the Post Office to photograph.

And please cite where you learn that all common carriers, including FedEx, UPS and USPS photograph every thing they ship and store it in some database somewhere? I must have missed that class.

Mike1234567
November 14, 2013, 08:33 AM
I must agree with PowerShot on this one. The USA should not be adapting ANYTHING the UN proposes within our own borders. I very much dislike the UN labels if for no other reason than the propagandizing effect PS referred to. Shipments across borders, yeah okay. Within our own borders, stop meddling with US.

One tiny scratch can lead to horrible infection...

jimmyraythomason
November 14, 2013, 04:32 PM
The USA should not be adapting ANYTHING the UN proposes within our own borders. Absolutely! Stay out of domestic American matters. Within our own borders, stop meddling with US.
Ditto!

dogtown tom
November 16, 2013, 11:32 PM
Oh good grief.
The amount of paranoid stupidity in this thread is mind numbing.


:banghead:

medalguy
November 23, 2013, 09:30 PM
To slightly change the direction of this thread, guys, remember that FedEx EXPRESS is a separate company with different regulations and tariffs than FexEx GROUND/HOME service. They share very little except the FedEx name.

There, fixed it Tom. Sorry.

dogtown tom
November 24, 2013, 06:50 PM
medalguy To slightly change the direction of this thread, guys, remember that FedEx EXPRESS is a separate company with different regulations and tariffs than UPS GROUND/HOME service. They share very little except the FedEx name.
:scrutiny:

jimmyraythomason
November 25, 2013, 12:59 PM
The amount of paranoid stupidity in this thread is mind numbing.
Sorry but I don't equate a legitimate concern for the loss of national sovereignty to any international entity with "paranoid stupidity".

dceagle
December 4, 2013, 07:06 PM
I have a second home in California, where I lawfully own a shotgun and a handgun. I am selling the California house and need to ship both shotgun and handgun to myself at my home in Virginia. I have read most of the posts on this thread and it appears I can ship shotgun to myself through USPS without making any declarations, but I will want insurance--do I have to declare firearm for insurance purposes to USPS--if not what do I declare for insurance purposes?

Also it appears that I can ship handgun through either UPS or FEDEX to myself in care of another, with adult signature required, as long as I declare to either UPS or FEDEX that I am shipping a firearm? Is that correct? Does anyone know if California law places any additional limits on my ability to ship the handgun to myself in Virginia through either UPS or FEDEX?

I do not have any Federal Firearm license.

Thanks for assistance.

dogtown tom
December 4, 2013, 07:26 PM
dceagle .....do I have to declare firearm for insurance purposes to USPS--if not what do I declare for insurance purposes?
Pay and print your shipping label online at usps.com If you try and do it at the counter expect a hassle.



Also it appears that I can ship handgun through either UPS or FEDEX to myself in care of another, with adult signature required, as long as I declare to either UPS or FEDEX that I am shipping a firearm?
While Federal law allows you to do this, UPS and FedEx have changed their policies and will no longer accept nonlicensee to nolicensee shipments.
If you try and do so without telling UPS/FedEx you violate Federal law for failing to notify the carrier of an interstate shipment to a nonlicensee.






Does anyone know if California law places any additional limits on my ability to ship the handgun to myself in Virginia through either UPS or FEDEX?
I would worry more about Federal law being violated in California.....ship to a VA dealer and transfer it via 4473.

oneounceload
December 4, 2013, 08:14 PM
Or bring it with you when you return to VA

stringed
January 20, 2014, 01:18 PM
Dogtown Tom,

Maybe their regulations have changed, but FedEx does not now allow individuals to ship firearms to themselves or other unlicensed individuals. Only to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers. On their website is states

FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

ScottS
January 20, 2014, 02:41 PM
Dogtown Tom,

Maybe their regulations have changed, but FedEx does not now allow individuals to ship firearms to themselves or other unlicensed individuals. Only to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers. On their website is states

FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).


Yet another use for a C&R FFL.

perpster
February 4, 2014, 12:17 PM
Want to send unloaded firearm magazines (pistol and/or rifle) from one US state to another US state. They are of legal number-of-rounds-capacity in both states. Neither sender nor receiver (the shippee, not the firearm part) are FFL.

Can this be done via US Postal Service? Common Carrier? Any particular rules, declarations, etc.?


If same scenario as above, but I want to ship them to myself in another state (in which I do not reside but will be visiting for lawful shooting purposes), can this be done via US Postal Service? Common Carrier? Does it matter, or is it preferable, to address them to myself at the other state address (at which I do not reside but will be visiting), or to myself "care of" someone who resides at that other state address? Any particular rules, declarations, etc.?

One question in addition to the above: If I send to myself, not "care-of", and want proof of delivery (such as Delivery Confirmation if use USPS Priority Mail), how would that work -- who could sign for delivery addressed to me if I'm not there? Does it work like any non-firearms-related shipment, in that anyone present can sign for it?

Thanks. Searched threads for this but did not find.

NavyLCDR
February 4, 2014, 03:56 PM
No restrictions on mailing empty magazines at all. If you did happen to send them to a state where their possession is illegal, you could possibly be charged by that state (and you would have to be extradited) with conspiring with the recipient to enable them to commit a crime.

No different then sending a replacement screw - just because it is intended for use in a firearm.

PowerShot
February 7, 2014, 01:01 AM
And please cite where you learn that all common carriers, including FedEx, UPS and USPS photograph every thing they ship and store it in some database somewhere? I must have missed that class.

If the USPS is organized enough to do it …

US Postal Service Logging All Mail for Law Enforcement (NY Times, 2013-Jul-3):

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"… Mr. Pickering was targeted by a longtime surveillance system called mail covers, a forerunner of a vastly more expansive effort, the Mail Isolation Control and Tracking program, in which Postal Service computers photograph the exterior of every piece of paper mail that is processed in the United States — about 160 billion pieces last year. It is not known how long the government saves the images.

Together, the two programs show that postal mail is subject to the same kind of scrutiny that the National Security Agency has given to telephone calls and e-mail …"

Mike1234567
February 7, 2014, 03:55 PM
Mouth hanging open because ...

1) The ammunition shipment was internal to the United States (not international)

2) Numerous other shipments this year from other suppliers had no such UN markings.

3) Most importantly, the UN is intractably corrupt and openly hostile to human liberty and the US constitution. That they are allowed to have any part in defining how ammunition is transported within the United States is an obvious foot-hold for control.

Changing stickers and labels is useless, but does serve to propagandize the population to the idea that the UN somehow has a legitimate role in ammunition distribution (hence control), as a sort of advertising.

Was my ammunition purchase reported and logged in a United Nations database? No way to know. No redress since they are unelected and unaccountable.

I tend to agree with these types of posts. I don't like "other nations" having anything to do with "USA internal affairs" when they have nothing to do with "international affairs". We have enough interference from "our own" government, thank you very much. "Economic globalization" is one thing and "NWO" is quite another... or is it? Yeah, okay... never mind.

craneda1945
April 15, 2014, 12:04 PM
To "dogtown tom"You might want to revisit the UPS web page. They say there that "UPS accepts firearms for transportation "only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed..." collectors. I have experienced this at both UPS and FED EX shipping centers not allowing non-licensees to send firearms to another non-licensee when the recipient is in the same state and CAN receive a firearm legally. The agents there stated that one party (either the sender or the recipient) MUST be a F.F.L. license holder.

oneounceload
April 15, 2014, 12:09 PM
Shipping a long gun intrastate, then use the USPS
Shipping a handgun intrastate, ship to a FFL

I have used Fedex to intrastate long guns a few times - they had no issue with it

dogtown tom
April 15, 2014, 04:07 PM
craneda1945 To "dogtown tom"You might want to revisit the UPS web page. They say there that "UPS accepts firearms for transportation "only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed..." collectors. I have experienced this at both UPS and FED EX shipping centers not allowing non-licensees to send firearms to another non-licensee when the recipient is in the same state and CAN receive a firearm legally. The agents there stated that one party (either the sender or the recipient) MUST be a F.F.L. license holder.
I would if I could, but the "Edit" feature is no longer available.
See post #68 for my update.

rebareater
April 19, 2014, 05:04 PM
Ok I checked ATF and it looks like I can ship a handgun to myself in another state. But checking Fedex and Ups it doesn't seem like i can do that unless it is to a FFL holder.
Any suggestions on who I can ship with? I could take it in my luggage but don't trust TSA.

NavyLCDR
April 19, 2014, 08:24 PM
Ok I checked ATF and it looks like I can ship a handgun to myself in another state. But checking Fedex and Ups it doesn't seem like i can do that unless it is to a FFL holder.
Any suggestions on who I can ship with? I could take it in my luggage but don't trust TSA.
Ummmm...... you don't trust TSA? The gun goes in a locked case that only you have the key or combo to and if TSA wants to open the case, you have to be there for it. Once it passes initial TSA screening, which you are usually present for anyway, TSA pretty much is 100% hands off your luggage. Hundreds if not thousands of firearms travel every day in this country in checked baggage, so what is the TSA doing to all those people with those firearms?

You might be able to find a freight shipping company like maybe yellow freight that services both your origin and destination....look up "LTL freight" carriers - LTL meaning less than truckload.

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