Anyone know if this is true? DHS contract for 450M rounds of ammunition conspiracy


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danprkr
March 26, 2012, 08:11 PM
Feds Buying Surplus Ammo Ordering Stores Cease Sales (http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/03/22/feds-buying-surplus-ammo-ordering-stores-cease-sales-102511/)

The source seems shaky to me, and I don't want to create a panic, but if it is true the hive needs to know. And let's face it, it's exactly the kind of thing the administration would try.

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Calhoun
March 26, 2012, 08:15 PM
I call BS. Especially with it's "anonymous source".

buck460XVR
March 26, 2012, 08:21 PM
I call BS. Especially with it's "anonymous source".

yep.

BullfrogKen
March 26, 2012, 08:34 PM
No, that's nonsense.


It's an IDIQ contract. Indefinite Delivery, Indefinite Quantity. It means DHS could buy the whole amount or none at all.

It's simply a contract vehicle to lock in a price over the agreed upon time, with a cap on the total amount they'll order in the time frame. Remember DHS includes a lot of agencies these days (Secret Service, US Coast Guard, Border Patrol, ...) that would have contracted for ammunition separately in the past and a single procurement for them now will be large.

It is just a standard government procurement practice.

rcmodel
March 26, 2012, 08:40 PM
There was jsut a thread about it on the 20th.

It was BS then, and it's still BS six days later.

rc

BullfrogKen
March 26, 2012, 08:58 PM
Full story here.


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Jim K
March 26, 2012, 09:11 PM
Do the agents descend on gun shops from black helicopters piloted by big-eyed aliens from space with UFO's providing support? If not, it isn't true. No story about secret plots is valid without aliens from outer space, UFO's and black helicopters. Or grassy knolls.

JIm

ApacheCoTodd
March 26, 2012, 09:38 PM
From the "WRONG!... Sometimes you can judge a book by it's cover" department.

I mentally smirk whenever I'm directed through links to a "source" of information for one of these scare issues. Now, I'm not saying that legitimate news only comes from one of the established outlets, but c'mon guys get a firmer grip on your ability to smell a turd when you see one. These things are really getting boring.

"According to an anonymous source...";
"...source claims..."
"The source points out..."
"...source says..."
"... one can only speculate..."


But the best has got to be:
"While all of this is coming from an unreliable anonymous source I am putting it out there in case the claims are true."

BullfrogKen
March 26, 2012, 09:44 PM
I have a source that tells me the cow jumped over the moon.


I'm not sure it happened. But in case it's true, I'm "putting it out there, too."

Fishslayer
March 26, 2012, 09:47 PM
No story about secret plots is valid without aliens from outer space, UFO's and black helicopters. Or grassy knolls.

JIm

My source denies any knowlege of ammo hoarding by .gov...

...but he DOES admit to buying up all the pistol primers he can find. Says they're delicious!:evil:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/THE_Fishslayer/Dingo%20%20%20Fauna/FishslayerFaunaRoswellNM.jpg

forgottenson
March 26, 2012, 09:50 PM
:):) Now that is funny, a gray primer eater...........:):)

M-Cameron
March 26, 2012, 09:52 PM
You know, I almost can believe it.....simply because I can see the govt paying for the same product twice.....

BUCKrub91
March 26, 2012, 10:06 PM
They sure had an awful lot of the exact ammo shown in the picture at gander mountain when I went the other day..

mingansr
March 26, 2012, 10:36 PM
The source seems shaky to me, and I don't want to create a panic, but if it is true the hive needs to know. And let's face it, it's exactly the kind of thing the administration would try.


when i read the above statement, i immediately suspected its falsity. lotsa fear re: administration and our gun rights, loss of 2nd amendment. so old i forget the band who wrote the song with words, "Paranoia strikes deep, into the heart it will creep...."

IMHO, and to each his own. take the high road.

Fishslayer
March 26, 2012, 11:24 PM
so old i forget the band who wrote the song with words, "Paranoia strikes deep, into the heart it will creep...."


"For What it's Worth" - Buffalo Springfield ;)

"...step outta line, The Man come and take you away... "

mingansr
March 27, 2012, 04:10 AM
thanks Fishslayer! you know it starts when you're always afraid.:uhoh:

appreciate you helping my 'golden years' failing mind.

HoosierQ
March 27, 2012, 12:11 PM
I have seen cans and cans of this ammo just about everywhere. Even Dick's Sporting Goods has cans of this stuff stacked up between the bolling balls and the shake weights.

If the gov't is buying this up, they ain't working at it very hard.

Sam1911
March 27, 2012, 01:17 PM
There was jsut a thread about it on the 20th.

It was BS then, and it's still BS six days later.


Concise, brief, and succinct.

italy4nra
March 30, 2012, 02:19 PM
Interesting news.... the gov just purchased 450 milliion rounds of ammo.
Inflation hedge? Ammo seems to be a good investment.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12

PS I hope this is the right forum section.
PPS This is just an interesting news item for discussion. I am in no way recommending ammo to you for investment and I am not affiliated with any ammunition or arms company.

firesky101
March 30, 2012, 02:24 PM
Two threads dedicated, and mentioned in a third already.

CWL
March 30, 2012, 02:41 PM
What does your post even mean? Did you even think your post through before you posted?

Will the DHS ever want to buy a case of your ammo?

Even if they did, the price is fixed for several years, and definitely at far less cost than what you paid for your ammo at retail.

How does owning a commodity at a fixed rate be an "inflation hedge"?

4v50 Gary
March 30, 2012, 04:23 PM
I for one am glad they are doing a mass bulk buy. It saves taxpayer dollars that way.

A law enforcement agency will not only qualify its sworn three or four times a year but issue from 50-100 rounds a month for practice. Sometimes the officers have to go to the range to get that ammo. They sign for it (to prove to the bean counters that the ammo was distributed as intended) and then shoot it at the range.

Also consider that training is different from qualifying. That burns up ammo too. Now, if some one fails to qualify, they must shoot again. That's more ammo.

One final word. That huge purchase had better cover all federal law enforcement including Mint Police and Federal Protective Services.

Owen Sparks
March 30, 2012, 04:31 PM
It makes me nervous.

italy4nra
March 30, 2012, 04:38 PM
firesky: Sorry for the dedicated thread. I did look, clearly not well enough. will try and close this one.

CWL: sure did think. cause dad says I'm his smartest son, doh! yep, planning on selling my 100 rounds to homeland security as soon as they get to their last 625th million.... Purchasing inflationary commodities for future consumption or buying forward contracts are inflationary hedges. I work in industry and resin, pet, hdpe, ps, aluminium, stainless, brass, copper and chemicals have inflated 10 to 30 percent. If the DHS is buying 625 million rounds they are either very paranoid or very savvy with regard to the futures market... which as far as I am aware is not traded publicly. Since global conflict is ubiquitous and runs on bullets I was hoping to trigger by mention of gold speculation on why ammunition was not similarly marketed. If we can buy pork belly futures why not .223?

Gary: it saves tax dollars, agreed, but it does not cover all fed agencies, only DHS. It is a contract for future delivery, not bulk delivery.

brickeyee
March 30, 2012, 04:47 PM
I have heard gold taste bad and is very hard on teeth.

Jorg Nysgerrig
March 30, 2012, 05:03 PM
Keep in mind this is a press release from the vendor who won the contract. All this means if that they have been awarded a contract that might result in selling up to 450 million rounds over the next 5 years to the .gov at the negotiated contract price. ATK releases this kind of information for public relations and investor purposes. Notice the paragraph long disclaimer at the end.

It would be interesting to see how many rounds are actually delivered. It will likely be substantially less. Saying "the gov just purchased 450 milliion rounds of ammo" is pretty misleading.

More information in the type of contract:
http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/103926

Rembrandt
March 30, 2012, 05:18 PM
Have ammo and gold......but farm land is out performing both, about 30% return just this year.

hso
March 30, 2012, 08:52 PM
Yep, an IDIQ contract has no fixed minimum value, but it does establish an upper value. IOW, it means the ATK won a contract to supply somewhere between 1 and 450,000,000 rounds of ammunition. They worked hard for that contract as well and may not make enough off of it to pay for the cost of winning it OR they may make a profit if the gvt. actually orders enough ammo.

IDIQ contracts are let by governments all the time and have more risk than a firm contract with identified minimums.

Elbert P . Suggins
April 4, 2012, 08:06 PM
I realize this shortage happens when people get concerned and they buy extra but last week DHS bought 450 million rounds of .40cal and .223 cal from ATK here in Idaho. And hollow point on top of that. I thought they didn't use hollowpoint according the Geneva Convention rules of combat? Now the big ammo sellers show 0 in many of their stocks of 7.62X39 and .223 along with many other calibers. Tell me I should rest easy and not worry about it but my 11,000 rounds of every cal. I have looks like a pretty small pile in the corner. My gun dealer's sales have been cut in half because he can't promise restocking is in the future for the ammo to go with the weapons.

Certaindeaf
April 4, 2012, 08:07 PM
Yep, the end is fear.

OARNGESI
April 4, 2012, 08:11 PM
the hp ammo is probally for local pd worry when you see them buying ammo for guns leos and soldiers dont carry

exavid
April 4, 2012, 08:19 PM
I just got a can of 840rds of 5.56 from Cheaper than Dirt. They don't show any out of stock on their site. I looked at several other online websites that sell ammo and only one was out of stock in 5.56. I tend to suspect that we might have the beginning of another 'panic run' on popular ammo but not caused by government purchase.
Besides the TSA, Border Guard, and ICE the DHS also has the Coast Guard so there are several agencies that would use ammunition. LEOs do carry 5.56mm and .40S&W. The Coast Guard has just adopted th Sig Sauer P229R DAKTM .40 to replace their 9mm Berrettas. The Immigration and Custom Enforcement also adopted the .40S&W DAO in 1995 and they use hollow points. Border Patrol Agents also commonly carry the .223 caliber M4 Carbine and the H&K UMP .40 caliber submachine gun.

Walkalong
April 4, 2012, 08:24 PM
Old news.

Ammo is everywhere you look.

Panic will only play into the sellers hands.

paperpounder
April 4, 2012, 08:31 PM
My first post here, but as a previous poster mentioned ammo and Idaho, I just received my order from Freedom Munitions based out of Idaho.
I ordered over a 1000 rounds of various calibers, some new and some reload, I must say that I'm very pleased with the quality, price, fast shipping and responsiveness of Freedom.

I will certainly order from them again.

Sent from my DROID RAZR

Certaindeaf
April 4, 2012, 08:32 PM
I think every entity qualifies and practices with duty ammunition these days.

Old krow
April 4, 2012, 08:58 PM
I thought they didn't use hollowpoint according the Geneva Convention rules of combat?

That was the Hague Convention and DHS aren't combatants. It's perfectly legal/acceptable to use them in their capacity, even preferred.

I realize this shortage happens when people get concerned and they buy extra but last week DHS bought 450 million rounds of .40cal and .223 cal from ATK here in Idaho.

They haven't bought them, they have a contract that should they buy they're locked into the price up to 450M rounds or 5 years.

It's not that much ammo if you consider qualifying and practice for a group the size of the DHS.

Tell me I should rest easy and not worry about it but my 11,000 rounds of every cal. I have looks like a pretty small pile in the corner.

You should rest easy. If there's a shortage, this will not be the cause. Your pile in the corner is a nice little buffer. I wouldn't worry. :)

Larry Ashcraft
April 4, 2012, 09:03 PM
last week DHS bought 450 million rounds of .40cal and .223 cal from ATK here in Idaho. And hollow point on top of that.

Gun shop rumor, most likely. Do you have any proof?

There was a story a couple of weeks ago about the government locking in the price on a bunch of ammo, and it has blossomed into all kinds of paranoid rumors.

Gun shops of course love this panic buying.

Elbert P . Suggins
April 4, 2012, 09:17 PM
To Larry Ashcroft, the story about the ammo purchase was on Drudge Report and from a person that worked at the company. The gun dealer told me his suppliers of AK and AR ammo were dried up and they didn't know when they could replenish. SGammo was where I got my last stuff last week and there are alot of zeros beside there stocking numbers. That's all I know.

Elbert P . Suggins
April 4, 2012, 09:28 PM
Here is a link to the information:

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-03-28/news/31247765_1_atk-rounds-bullet
It is 450 million of .40 and 175 million of .223.

jef2015
April 4, 2012, 09:33 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-immigration-agents-are-loading-up-on-as-many-as-450-million-new-rounds-of-ammo-2012-3

A link to the article. It is up to 450 million rounds over 5 years....


Suggins beat me to it.

Certaindeaf
April 4, 2012, 09:38 PM
Well what the heck do you expect.. them to use their guns like blowguns?
The way I see it, it should do the economy some good.

mrvco
April 4, 2012, 09:42 PM
It is strange that it is perfectly acceptable to use hollow-point ammo on your own citizenry, but not on your enemies. In a country putting down an uprising within its own borders (e.g. "Arab Spring" countries or anywhere engaged in a "Civil War"), at what point would the police and security forces have to switch from HP's to FMJ's to comply with the Geneva Convention?

I don't think the ammunition and firearms industries are going to leave much, if any, money on the table this year. I haven't had any trouble ordering bulk ammo or picking up 50's and 100's at Wally World (.38s, 9mm and .40S&W at least)... and prices seem to be about the same as last year at this time.

exavid
April 4, 2012, 09:58 PM
First off the US isn't a signatory of the Geneva Convention although we do honor it's provisions. Second the Convention ONLY applies to uniformed armed forces memebers, not criminals. One good justification of using effective ammunition by LEOs, Border Guards, et. al, is that they often are outgunned by the BGs, and don't have a rifle squad with them.

Old krow
April 4, 2012, 10:00 PM
It is strange that it is perfectly acceptable to use hollow-point ammo on your own citizenry, but not on your enemies. In a country putting down an uprising within its own borders (e.g. "Arab Spring" countries or anywhere engaged in a "Civil War"), at what point would the police and security forces have to switch from HP's to FMJ's to comply with the Geneva Convention?

It was the Hague Convention; Declaration III, not Geneva. Not to detract from the topic at hand, but, the reason that it is acceptable is:

At the time of the Hague Convention July 2 1899 Europe didn't want the US to use the same rounds against "civilized" countries as she had against "savages" inside her own boundaries. This had more to do with the US fighting on foreign soil (specifically Europe) than it did anything else.

The text reads:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

Police and SF do not have to shoot FMJs, even in an uprising. In fact, our own military uses JHPs from time to time. I have read it several ways, but I do not believe that we're bound to the Hague Convention the way that most people think we are.

In either case, DHS using JHPs instead of FMJs in not only legal, it is preferred. DHS ordering JHPs instead of FMJs isn't a point worthy of any consideration at all.

There's not much to any of this. The contract IS real. The deliveries start in June, but, they haven't purchased 450M rounds. ATK won a contract to supply DHS with UP TO 450M rounds or UP TO 5 years, which ever comes first, at the price specified in the contract.

It's not that big of a deal and certainly no different than a DOD contract for larger contracts that flow by us every day unnoticed.

On the bright side, there's likely to be an overflow of 40SW on the market when DHS realizes that we're broke and can't afford all 450M rounds.

Larry Ashcraft
April 4, 2012, 10:11 PM
To Larry Ashcroft
Whom are you referring to?

LibShooter
April 4, 2012, 11:15 PM
According to this 2009 article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/02/AR2009110202712.html), 7 to 12 BILLION rounds of ammo are bought by US gun owners every year. I don't think that counts all the ammo various government agencies buy regularly every year. The 90 million per year the DHS contracted for will raise demand by less than 1%. It doesn't seem like that would contribute much to any shortage.

HoosierQ
April 4, 2012, 11:18 PM
Non Story.

Certaindeaf
April 4, 2012, 11:30 PM
^
Didn't you hear the part that they're hollow and pointy?

justice06rr
April 4, 2012, 11:35 PM
You should breath easy. your stash of 11k rounds of ammo is a significant stockpile IMO and more than most people have. some people don't even have half of that.

If it really worried you, you can try getting into reloading.

writerinmo
April 5, 2012, 12:32 AM
I've seen this "panic post" on several forums that I frequent and I'm happy to say that cool heads seem to be pointing out the facts in this internet story. First, that the contract says "UP TO" a maximum, no minimum is listed. Another poster, who is a Homeland Security employee, mentioned that they have "XXX" amount of employees and even at the maximum number of rounds, split up amongst all agents would only come out to around 39 rounds each a month for them to shoot.

No ammo shortage hereabouts, as a matter of fact when I went in to Walmart to get my weekly stock of ammo, the case was fuller than it has been in a long time, they even had ammo I hadn't seen in there before. Finally got the 100 round packs of Federal in 9mm on the shelf, and more calibers of the Tulammo as well.

BSA1
April 5, 2012, 09:54 AM
Old news.

Ammo is everywhere you look.

Panic will only play into the sellers hands.

Ammunition is readily available if you will use the power of your computer to shop for it instead of using it to spread false rumors.

The local Cabelas has shelves full of .223. I didn't look for .40 since I don't shoot it.

Likewise several online dealers have ammo. This is not to say spot shortages of certain brands or bullets styles may exist but you can generally find something in your caliber of choice.

Now prices are a different discussion.:eek:

mljdeckard
April 5, 2012, 10:04 AM
Oh no!! Law enforcement agencies buying amunition!!

hso
April 5, 2012, 10:06 AM
That's an IDIQ (Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity) contract that has a 0-450M round purchase agreement committing the DHS (USCG, Secret Service, Border Patrol, etc.) and ATK to an agreement for price on delivery of up to the maximum in the contract. DHS anticipates purchasing X and AKT agrees to deliver any amount up to that at Y price. This is how most government agencies purchase consumables like this these days. Factor in that DHS is purchasing for many agencies that previously purchased ammunition on their own and you get a large procurement instead of several totaling it. People who don't understand this have twisted this story into something remarkable when it actually isn't.

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