Are we screwed?


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HBK
February 14, 2004, 02:42 PM
It seems to me that our country is on its way down the toilet. The general morals of our society are practically non existent. It's not really even LEGAL to defend your property anymore. You can defend your life, but if you do a civil suit may bankrupt you. Our bill of rights is up for debate. Free speech means immoral groupl like NAMBLA can have a web site on the net that tells perverts how to pick up little boys. A big deal is made about the so called "separation of church and state," even though no such thing is mentioned in our constitution. People use the term "civil liberties" for whatever perversion takes their fancy and say it's protected by the constitution. Our founding fathers are denigrated for whatever character flaws can be found or made up about them. This then leads to the conclusion by liberals that they were flawed, so our country's law of the land should be changed. I'm starting to think that the only thing that can save our country is a 2nd American Revolution, but can't really see that happening. We are going to outsource our jobs and not help americans desperately in need of work. People will say, "Things aren't so bad that we need to have a second revolution. We still can have food clothing and shelter." I know that's true, but knowing what our country was and how it was founded and seeing what it has become and is becoming is just killing me inside. Sorry to be so negative. I still write my congress people, do all the things we do to keep what rights we have left, but I am losing hope.

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I'mSpartacus!
February 14, 2004, 02:57 PM
Wanna speed up the process? Then vote for Kerry and watch it all go down the moral cesspool:

http://www.wsoctv.com/politics/2653091/detail.html

Nick1911
February 14, 2004, 02:57 PM
I think a lot of that is because 97% of our society is ignorant and indifferent to politics or how our society is going. Most seem concerned that they have a job, new car, and house in the suberbs. Things will have to get pretty bad before people will care about the state of their rights, and by then it'll be too late, IMHO.
Nick

HBK
February 14, 2004, 03:07 PM
Both of you are right. A vote for Kerry would enable our slide to proceed at a much faster pace.
Nick, you are right, most people, as long as they are comfortable, they aren't concerned about the state of their rights. I don't think they aren't concerned, but they just assume everything is good as far as their rights are concerned.
I want the slide to stop and for the American people start to climb back up and make our country what it was. I really believe that the suspension of the right to defend your property with deadly force is one of the root causes of this slide.

dischord
February 14, 2004, 03:14 PM
Most of the things you are upset with -- from NAMBLA to denigrating the founders to exporting jobs -- involve activities you would like to see stopped.

Thus, I conclude you are proposing a revolution to limit freedoms. How would you control your moral revolution so it wouldn't encroach your liberties while stopping those freedoms you don't want recognized?

FWIW: as much as I find NAMBLA a disgusting organization, talking about how to do XYZ and actually doing it are two separate things. Where would you draw the line on discussions of illegal activity? Would you allow discussions of making nukes? ...of the "need" for genocide against ABC ethnic group? ... of how to game the tax code to make a gay "marriage" work?

:) <-- by the way.

HBK
February 14, 2004, 03:21 PM
Good point. I really don't know to tell you the truth. It seems like their is no remedy for this ill. A revolution wouldn't be like the first one where there was a clear outside enemy. It would be more like a civil war. The country right now is divided more than it was during the civil war, but it is not as clearly defined logistically. I guess any fighting will have to be philosophical. :( I suck at that.

HunterGatherer
February 14, 2004, 03:28 PM
It's hard not to lose hope these days, but I try to keep in mind that America's best and brightest are afield right now defending our country. Some day soon they will return and the bell curve won't look quite so flat as it does right now.

Also keep in mind that much of what we are witnessing is the last hurrah of the leftist scumbags of the Klinton generation. Bubba Klinton started the last hurrah, and during his tenure in office he managed to lose both houses of congress, and the Whitehouse. And now with the help of Weasly Clark, Terry McCauliffe, and other assorted dupes he is turning the Demonrats upon themselves to further his and Hitlery's lust for the Presidency.

When I really need cheering up, I go to a pro-troop rally. I went to one at Ft. Lewis where some anti-war types were planning to hang their anti-American BS from the overpasses on I-5 in order to demoralize the troops as much as possible. The convoys taking the brigade out to their transports were going to have to travel right under those overpasses.

With the help of a local talk-radio station a couple thousand of us were able to get there a little early. And even though the wind was whipping, and squall lines of 10 minute downpours were sweeping through, we held 5 of those overpasses. People had brought homemade signs, flags, snare drums, you name it. One guy had an absolutely gigantic American flag. It was only buy the grace of God that it didn't get torn loose from him by the wind.

No anti-American rats found welcome on any of the overpasses those soldiers had to go under. None of those soldiers got to see anything other than their countrymen's love and respect for them that day. As a kid who grew up in the 70s, a time when anti-American scum were tolerated, I was absolutely ecstatic that day.

I'd waited 30+ years for a day like that.

Bruce H
February 14, 2004, 03:31 PM
It's divided because every race and ethnic group wants their own little paradise. The United States of America should be about all for one and one for all. Instead its about what have you got for me. Untill we finally understand that we have to all work together for the betterment we will regress into the tribal nature of our ancestors.

mrapathy2000
February 14, 2004, 04:21 PM
if kerry is elected president we are very well screwed.

I am voting for bush though I dont like what he has done on border security we have people terrorised with illegals crossing the border daily keeping Border patrol busy all day long. I am not a fan of his spending either. excellent job on war on terror and removing saddam and drawing out terrorist to iraq rather than focussing effort in america(hopefully).

the patriot act I am not a fan of but after 911 the government needed to reassess every single threat to the country and go through every bit of intelligence it had. did it violate rights yes but it was not normal every day life the country was just attacked and thousands were dead. would president still be around if he let people go not being sure they were not terrorist or linked to anything and have the country attacked again with 100 if not 1,000's more dead. he would very well be branded a failure for not doing enough to keep things from happening again.

I will be building a SHTF pack regardless who is president after november. better to have and not need then to need and not have specially during an emergency.

terrorism is not the only threat. china,russia and a number of other countries could go on a rampage if something bad enough happened. nuclear war is not a impossibility specially with nuclear proliferation that took place in last number of years.

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 14, 2004, 04:40 PM
Dischord,

Yes, you are right to point out the issue of enforcing morals. HBK cited symptoms, not the cause. Never "treat" a symptom, treat instead the cause.

The activities HBK has a problem with are caused by overt government implementation of rights at any price. If the government did only what is allowed to do by the rules, then no such harbors for deviance would be accepted.

If we, as free people, practiced association (as guaranteed), deviance would be shunned, not glorified. Each of us in our daily life would make decsions which would shape our society rather than having the government step in at every turn and make those decisions for us. This includes social engineering via the tax code to 1.6 gal/flush toilets.

The US Constitution directs the government to keep out of certain arenas of freedom. Slowly, over time, government has encroached on these prohibited arenas. NAMBLA would not exist openly unless its "rights" were protected by government. This turns the constitution on its head. The Holy Writ states that the government may not infringe on specific inalienable rights - citizens can do whatever they want. When you hear the Hollyweird people shouted down for all their stupidity, they cite the 1st amendment. However, it is not the government shouting them down, it is us. We have that right. That is our free speech right.

HBK may not have been around long enough to understand that this is not a Klinton problem. He is a product of the decay. This decay has been occuring since the 30's (social welfare) and the 60's (no social boundaries).

Even Reagan could not stop the slide. All we can do is hope to slow the slide. Short of revolution, we are doomed to continue the slide, either fast or slow, until the end, whatever that may entail

We are already a nanny state, sucking the life blood from the productive to support the unproductive. Providing protections to the deviants at the expense of the moral. Sacrificing human life and comfort to save the snail darter or the weed du jour.

All we really want is a level playing field so that the individual will still matter. So that the individual can pursue freedom and liberty with independence and self-reliance.

romulus
February 14, 2004, 04:58 PM
as much as I find NAMBLA a disgusting organization, talking about how to do XYZ and actually doing it are two separate things.
If xyz is a criminal offense, such as sexual contact with minors, then how is online detailed encouragement of such offense not incitement to commit a crime, a crime in itself?

dischord
February 14, 2004, 05:00 PM
NAMBLA would not exist openly unless its "rights" were protected by government. I'm not sure about that, but in any event, if they did not exist openly, they'd exist in secret -- out of the sight of the parents who need to protect their children. I'd rather have an open NAMBLA than a secret NAMBLA. I'd rather they'd publish their "dating tips" so I can teach my child how to recognize and avoid them.When you hear the Hollyweird people shouted down for all their stupidity, they cite the 1st amendment. However, it is not the government shouting them down, it is us. We have that right. That is our free speech right. I agree. However, the government (AFAIK) is not stopping us from shouting them down. Making false claims about us "violating" their free speech is, well, part of their free speech -- their mob-intimidation tactics are no more a violation of our free speech than our shouting them down. In fact, they are attempting to employ the same shunning tactics you mention.We are already a nanny state, sucking the life blood from the productive to support the unproductive. Yes we are. However, stopping the exportation of jobs -- one of HBK's complaints -- by any means other than the free market would further the nanny state. No offence to HBK, but that concern is lockstep with the big-government Democratic labor unions.

:) to one and all.

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 14, 2004, 05:09 PM
I guess I missed one other important point. The exportation of jobs is a symptom of massive government regulation driving up the costs of goods and services. While it is true that some of the regulations perform positively in improving the quality of life, we are beyond the point of diminishing returns where regulations are applied because bureaucrats have nothing to do but protect their jobs.

In their minds, if a little is good, then more must be better. The safest workplace, according to OSHA, is one where no work occurs. The cleanest industry, according to the EPA, is one where no product, or by-product, is produced.

A true free market would equalize the exportation of jobs. Even a loosening of the reins would have a significant effect.

dischord
February 14, 2004, 05:13 PM
If xyz is a criminal offense, such as sexual contact with minors, then how is online detailed encouragement of such offense not incitement to commit a crime, a crime in itself? Perhaps the NAMBLA stuff crosses the line from detailed discussion into incitement and ought to be a crime. I simply pointed out that the heinous act itself and the discussion of how to commit it are not the same things.

In any event, I'd rather their information not be driven into the underground so that I can be more aware of the danger.

dischord
February 14, 2004, 05:19 PM
The exportation of jobs is a symptom of massive government regulation driving up the costs of goods and services. Yes it is, but HBK's complaint was voiced as a call for action against the exporters, not a call to end government regulation that creates the need for exportation -- "We are going to outsource our jobs and not help americans desperately in need of work." At least that's how I read it -- if I'm wrong, I apologize to HBK.

In any event, we seem to be in a semantic discussion while agreeing on most of the philosophical elements.

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 14, 2004, 05:24 PM
Agreed. As I stated, HBK was promoting a solution to the symptom, not the problem.

geekWithA.45
February 14, 2004, 06:16 PM
HBK: I notice you list your location as "a liberal hellhole".

FWIW:

I too live in one, and what I guess I want to say is that being steeped in the toxic air of such a place warps your perspective after a while.

Oddly enough, the antidote is to travel to the real America, and spend some time among like minded folks, just to remind yourself that there are still plenty of real Americans out there, and that decent folks aren't a dying breed.

AnklePocket
February 14, 2004, 07:45 PM
Don't fall into the trap that I did/am still in thinking that a liberal hellhole is comprised only of liberals. There are real Americans everywhere in America, even in my town. A horrible email went out to hundreds in my community slamming the war on terror and supporting Kerry. I "Replied All" with a right wing feeding frenzy and got only positive responses.
Spewing the truth might be the wake-up call that many need. I've got some specific things going on to speed up that process in my own little slice of liberal fire and brimstone.
I guess that what I'm trying to say is to not be influenced by extremely dysfunctional politics and unAmerican thinking. Be part of the solution and not the problem.
We spent the day looking at homes in Pennsylvania and we might just stay in New Jersey and spread the good word. There's a lot more good people than we get credit for because of the extraordinary dereliction of duty of our elected officials.
And, of course, my knife training is out of this world since we can't exercise our 2nd Amendment Rights. Most bad guys would probably prefer that I had a gun, really.

Standing Wolf
February 14, 2004, 09:45 PM
...knowing what our country was and how it was founded and seeing what it has become and is becoming is just killing me inside.

Learning history is enlightening; it's not, however, very often encouraging.

BHPshooter
February 14, 2004, 09:52 PM
HBK, I'm with ya, man. I feel pretty depressed about "things" in our country a lot.

Are we screwed? Not yet, and the outlook doesn't look too bright, but there is still much to be done.

Yeah, it's hard. It's depressing. It's aggravating.

Stick in there, though. Keep taking people to the range. Keep writing your comb-overs on the hill. Keep helping other people to get involved.

They say that the smallest minority is always the loudest. If we can get a little more of the gun-owning majority to speak up, we'll be alright.

It's our job though, and no one's going to do it for us.

Wes

artherd
February 14, 2004, 09:55 PM
We may be screwed, or we may be just fine in the years to come.

Either way, we're well armed as the ultimate insurance against tyrants.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=798403

Norton
February 14, 2004, 10:11 PM
I agree with many of the opinions already stated here, I mean....hey, I'm a teacher...what's not to be depressed about when dealing with the lowest common denominator of today's yutes?

OTOH....I am energized by a couple of things that make it bearable to keep at least trying to follow "the high road". For one, I see a lot more of by best and brightest rejecting the socialist doctrine endemic to many of the public schools. I am also seeing a few (very few admittedly) teachers like myself who are unabashed in their rejection of the socialist agenda.

In addition, while I know that we MD'ers are a long way from freeing our state, I am excitied that our teamwork payed off in the last couple weeks in stalling the progress of the new AWB. We may not win the "war" this time around, but hopefully we will at least succeed with this battle.

Spot77 and I had a discussion on the way to the gun show today concerning our friend Cliff here on THR who made an excellent post the other day regarding his being a black conservative in Prince George's County, MD and the problems that he deals with by not being in lock-step with the NAACP/Black Activist agenda. My comment was that if we start seeing this kind of encouraging transformation in PG County, we may start seeing a sea-change of sorts amongst well-off blacks in this state as they start feeling the unjustness of the nanny welfare state propagated by the Baltimore and DC suburbs.

Remember everyone, if you can convert two people and they convert two people and so on, and so on.........

HBK
February 15, 2004, 12:08 AM
I'm a teacher too, so that's probably part of it. The funny thing is that most of my students, even the laziest ones, are pretty conservative. The ones I come in contact with know where I stand anyway. I always tell them to not take my word for anything, but search for the truth. Although our politician leaders may not agree, there's only one truth on most issues, not the gray area they fight to cling to like it's there last breath. I just look at some of the battles we have to fight and think, "We are even having this conversation in the USA?" Thanks for lifting my spirits back up, folks. I'm ready to fight the good fight now. :)

kbr80
February 15, 2004, 01:52 AM
Are we screwed?


Yes, we feel it more now because the Government cut backs forced them to use a cheaper brand of K Y.

JitsuGuy
February 15, 2004, 01:59 AM
Unless people wake up, yes.

J

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 15, 2004, 06:33 AM
It seems to me that our country is on its way down the toilet. The general morals of our society are practically non existent...

That's just not the case. For example Church attendence in the US is at near record levels. You need to stop thinking of Hollywood as representative of the entire US and stop equating minor blips like NAMBLA websites or Janet Jackson's Super Bowl antics with the overall trend in the US. Teen pregnancy is down, crime is way down, etc.., there are far more positive indicators than negative ones.

1911Tuner
February 15, 2004, 06:59 AM
HBK...Kudos!

Tuner

c_yeager
February 15, 2004, 07:11 AM
People have said this same thing for the past 300 years. And they will probably keep saying it for the next hundred years. I suppose its POSSIBLE that our country has been circling the drain since day one. but, personally i think its more a matter of perspective. Old timers have longed for the good ole days for as long as old timers have been around. I bet if you go back far enough in time you could find some guy who'd tell you how much better things were before that "wheel thingy" made everyone so lazy.

spartacus2002
February 15, 2004, 08:36 AM
So oldtimers have been pining for the good old days for forever? Doesn't make the observations in this thread any less justified.

The good old days didn't have rampant govt-subsidized fatherless bastard children.

The good old days didn't have NAMBLA protected as free speech.

The good old days didn't have a commerce clause in the COnstitution stretched wide enough to fit a fleet of trucks thru.

The good old days didn't have TV execs whining about the vagueness of the term "indecency."

The good old days didn't have packs of teenage thug wannabees at the mall, making decent folks feel nervous.

I could go on, but you get the point...

greyhound
February 15, 2004, 08:38 AM
This decay has been occuring since the 30's (social welfare) and the 60's (no social boundaries).

Yep, and over time the leftist and other "progressives" have come to truly believe that that is what the "real" America is about.

The other side looks back to the Constitution and the Founding Fathers as what the "real" America is about.

Hence, the culture wars that have been going on since at least the 60s, in which the "Constitution" side has been getting soundly thrashed until recently, mainly given that once you give something to people, its hard to take it away.

One half of this country looks to Europe, Canada, and Australia as ideals; the other wants us to keep our own identity.

dischord
February 15, 2004, 09:51 AM
It's neither a total downward spiral nor a total upward climb. It depends on what you are talking about. Some things have gotten worse (plenty of valid examples here), but some things have gotten better. For example:

The good old days did have lynchings and kangaroo courts.

The good old days did have most people look the other way at, if not approve of, child and spouse beating.

The good old days did have most states less friendly to the idea of citizens' carrying weapons.

The good old days did have most people dead by age 40 or 50.

The good old days did have plenty of children molested by adults (we just didn't know about it like we do now ... don't confuse greater awareness with greater occurence).

The good old days did have a lower standard of living (yeah, it would be even higher now if there weren't so much government interference).

I could go on, but you get the picture.

MicroBalrog
February 15, 2004, 10:08 AM
http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.gif

spartacus2002
February 15, 2004, 01:39 PM
Good points, dischord.

another okie
February 15, 2004, 01:57 PM
A society based on rights also needs restraint. If everyone uses their rights to the theoretical limit, order and civilization are impossible. That's the idea needed to connect those concerned about moral lapse with those pointing out that freedom protects those moral lapses.

An activity or advocacy of an idea may be legal; it may be constitutionally protected. That doesn't mean that it is good for the long-term survival of the society. The obsession with sex and violence of our society today is so much like ancient Rome just before the Germans overran the place that it's scary.

confed sailor
February 15, 2004, 09:30 PM
Who here has read Robert Heinlein? i remember in a whole slew of books, "Starship Troopers" "The Cat that Walks Through Walls" and others.

I remember one story he wrote where all men and women were armed, it was required. Arguments were settled on the spot with the permanent tort suit. You could opt out and wear a "brassard" but that meant you werent a real man.

Im a lil leery of that much personal freedom, but its a often seen quote on this board "an armed society is a polite society" and who said that--Bob Heinlein

Furthermore the merits of "Starship Troopers" come to mind. Forget the bloodsplashed movie, as cool as it was. Other than the occasional mention they completely left out the political message of the book. Military service to earn the Privilege of voting speaks to me. Im 21 and in the Navy as a Midshipman so yes i feel that i can speak on this. Public Whippings might be a good thing for crime too, hell watching that on tv would be better than fear factor and other prime time "schiesse"

I challenge all of y'all to go read Heinlein's books, esp. his short stories.


As for the good ole days

I dont care about the "good ole days" the main thing is i want to be left alone, i dont need big brother watching me, i learned firearms safety at 4 years of age. :cuss: I want us out the UN, those gun grabbing, no good, lying, worthless, and other non-profane insults, i hate em, my uncle was a weapons inspector for them, COVER-UP central, those rag head camel schtuppers are dirty as hell.

I was a Republican, im now a libertarian, Thanks to y'all :D

Now im almost a Bircher, but thats another thread totally

joonya187
February 15, 2004, 10:54 PM
Dang so many shall issue states, and I ain't in one of em.:mad:

Thats a neat map, however don't confuse 'statute' with actual practice. Hopefully the other 49 actually use the law if they have it.

Though the outlook may be at times bleak, we soldier on while hope remains.

c_yeager
February 16, 2004, 01:32 AM
The good old days did have lynchings and kangaroo courts.

true

The good old days did have most people look the other way at, if not approve of, child and spouse beating.

They really didnt even need to look the other way cause it wasnt generally considered to be wrong in the first place. but, true.

The good old days did have most states less friendly to the idea of citizens' carrying weapons.

Partial truth. But, you should research exactly when people were allowed to carry concealed weapons. you might be suprised. (look at micro's handy graph.)

The good old days did have most people dead by age 40 or 50.

Depends on how far back you go. But, there is some truth to this.

The good old days did have plenty of children molested by adults (we just didn't know about it like we do now ... don't confuse greater awareness with greater occurence).

yep

The good old days did have a lower standard of living (yeah, it would be even higher now if there weren't so much government interference).

yep

In other words i agree with dischord, progress is generally just that, progress.

thefitzvh
February 16, 2004, 03:06 AM
I read that story about the overpasses in Ft. Lewis and it reminded me of something...

For those that read my thread a while ago, I'm writing a book about my experiences in the military, namely the search and recovery ops at the pentagon.

We were out there doing the cleanup, and nightly we'd load up on the deuce and a halfs and go back to Ft. Myer for a few hours sleep.


Every single night, there was a HUGE amount of people on the grass next to the navy annex, cheering for us. It was the biggest feeling of appreciation I've ever felt.

Well, when we finally got a day off, my friend Boyer and I went down to the candlelight vigil to put up a flag on the fence.

While down there, we got interviewed by the BBC, who were total jerks to us, trying to get us to express "our" disgust for the presidents "dead or alive" attitude. I told him that, as commander in chief, the president had my complete and 100% support.

Anyways, as we were getting ready to leave, a kid tugged on my pantleg. I thought it was kinda odd that he was out here at 11:00 at night, but whatever. I bent down to see what he needed, and he handed me a little american flag.

His mom informed me that his dad was either injured or killed in the pentagon (I can't remember which, sorry... in fact, I can't remember a lot of things about my time out there.)

Apparently he'd been out there since 10AM waiting for a soldier to give a flag to. His mom told him that we were out there looking for people, and he forced his mom to take him by throwing a tantrum... :cool:

I lost my marbles at that point... Poor kid. I'm 6'6" and over 200 pounds, and I was squeezing this kid, cryin like a little schoolgirl.

What did I learn about that incident? That there's always hope for america. As long as a kid that young will stay out that late to simply make a soldier feel better, I'd say there's hope yet.

I hate what's happened to our country, but I find reasons to love America everyday. I think that loving america, while unpopular as of late, will see a resurgance.

I only have to talk to the babysitter that my mom occasionally hires to feel that way.

She emmigrated from the middle east some years back. She was a refugee, but she desired to work toward obtaining real citizenship. Her husband was some kind of political opponent of whatever radical Islam group ran that particular country. He unvieled her as they stepped off the plane, telling her "you will never have to hide your face again here."

I love america. Most of us here love america, and a good portion of the public loves america. Give it some time for our soldiers and citizens to gain more experience in life, and run for office.

I'd say we won't have to deal with the lesser of two evils too much longer.


James

redhead
February 16, 2004, 11:04 AM
joonya187, I live in a "may issue" state, and it might as well be a "no issue".

I haven't read the entire thread yet, haven't had my first cup of coffee to jump start my heart. It just seems to me that as long as we're comfortable, have nice houses, televisions to entertain us, lots of events at the stadium, plenty of food, lots of beer and chips, and decent or better cars, we'll put up with a lot.

MicroBalrog
February 16, 2004, 10:55 PM
Free speech means immoral groupl like NAMBLA can have a web site on the net that tells perverts how to pick up little kid

You now slandered those below slander.:neener: :neener:

Azrael256
February 16, 2004, 11:38 PM
Edward Gibbon said it best. The Parallels are truly disturbing. PM me and I'll be glad to send you a copy.

labgrade
February 17, 2004, 11:46 AM
"Are we screwed?"

Yes, we are, unless ....

"For example Church attendence in the US is at near record levels"

So what? If not the message sent from the pulpet is true & complete. Times were thatthe pulpet was an invigorating force for positive change in this country. No longer. It's mostly a "let's all get along" theme which disgusts me. & apologies to yours if not so - &way inadvance so as to not offend.

Literally, we've a choice before us: do you wanna be a socialist, or a fascist? (Demos or Repubs)

Frankly, I reject both, 'cause neither expouses the ideals of the Declaration, nor the Consitution, nor the Bill of Rights.

I've always voted for the lesser of the two evils & never will again.

Wasted vote? maybe, but w/o voting for who actually stands for what these things stand for, we will never again have what this country was founded upon.

Joe Demko
February 17, 2004, 11:53 AM
How bad is your life?
Any trouble with deathsquads lately?
Any relatives "disappeared?"
Been brought up on sedition charges recently?
Are your children starving because all your crops were seized for redistribution?
Had your house or business vandalized because of your religion?
Any family members lynched because of skin color?
Blue helmets kick in your door and confiscate your guns this AM?
The police beat or torture you lately?

No, we aren't screwed.
You may not like certain societal changes, but life is better in the US right now for more people than ever.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 17, 2004, 12:03 PM
So what? If not the message sent from the pulpet is true & complete. Times were thatthe pulpet was an invigorating force for positive change in this country. No longer. It's mostly a "let's all get along" theme which disgusts me. & apologies to yours if not so - &way inadvance so as to not offend.

The Church I attend is not one that could be described as a "go along get along" type, however I do know a few that fit that description. They ordain openly gay ministers, approve same-sex marriages, etc.

Even in those churches however, it's still apparent that most who attend are looking for an ethical basis to life, and that's a good sign. And of course that search is not limited to the Christian churches.





edited for spelling CHL22:36

labgrade
February 17, 2004, 12:55 PM
Golgo-13,

"How bad is your life?"

Actually, my life sucks right now," but that's another issue due to current health problems & other than the below. You, or anyone, is welcome to PM me as far as what my life has become. Frankly, I''d welcome it, from some of y'all.

"Any trouble with deathsquads lately?"

Somehwhat. I was almost shot to death recently for merely appearing on-scene/having a firearm in my possession, & checking out what might have been a neighborhood "disturbance" - whilst being perfectly innococous. = firearm in presence & I was cuffed, arrested & charged.

"Been brought up on sedition charges recently?"

Nope. Only "illegal possesion of firearms" & "obstruction of a peace officer."[/I] Only cost me $2K to get toplea to a 2nd degree misdomeanor charge of "obstruction." & that for merely walking up the hill to my neighbors' house to see what aid I could render ....

"The police beat or torture you lately?"

Nope. I bent to their will so I would not be subjected to what they'd wished to do - slapping my legs with a nightstick for the inquirey of "what, if anything I'm being charged with."

Ergo. There's a point where resistance, at the time, will get you nowhere but beaten.

No, we aren't screwed - quite yet.

But, Golgo-13, perhaps you haven't seen it - either from the LEO perspective, or from those who have.

I wuz a cop & saw some things that would turn your blood cold, & I have been on the receiving end which would do both.

PM-me & we could talk, or you can sit in your tower, never to hear what actually goes on.

Russ
February 17, 2004, 01:36 PM
HBK,

I never knew my paternal Grandfather as he died in 1939. I remember my father telling me he used to think the same things way back when. If the US can stay true (even halfway) to what the founders envisioned we will not go down. Too many of us still believe in the ideals that set America apart to begin with. That will not change. No need to despair.

Joe Demko
February 17, 2004, 01:51 PM
labgrade,
check pm.

cloudkiller
February 17, 2004, 02:03 PM
What country's history do you want to return to? The America that so many romanticize as more moral, ideal and filled with "self-made" people legally abused far more people than the nation today. You complain about the choice of candidates -- but you can vote, unlike most of the population in the 1800s, simply by virtue of birth. You complain about morality when the hypocrisy of past generations is behind today's normlessness. You complain about minorities who don't want to integrate today without realizing you are repeating TO A WORD complaints about immigrants dating 100 to 150 years ago. You complain that NAMBLA's speech rights are a sign of moral decadence when back in the the "good old moral south" a century or so ago we had thousands of lynchings promoted by the KKK, whose activities (NOT JUST SPEECH) were protected by government in many areas.

I think that justice is more alive today than in most of the nation's history. I may not agree with some of the infringements on our rights, but I don't idealize a past where so many people weren't even considered human.

Jonesy9
February 17, 2004, 02:08 PM
oh geez, I agree with Cool Hand Luke :)


The sky isn't falling. The country is not going down the toilet. Not everthing is perfect, nor has it ever been.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 18, 2004, 02:46 AM
oh geez, I agree with Cool Hand Luke

You're being assimilated into the vast right wing conspiracy, resistance is futile. :D

labgrade
February 19, 2004, 11:02 AM
I owe Golgo-13 a public appology merely from my assumption that he hasn't seen some things - my reference to his "tower."

My bad, & after my latest PM, hopefully, he'll forgive my assumptions & so my public reply.

One thing though regards this "are we screwed" theme.

I guess it would depend on how one looks at it.

Years past, we could fly with firearms & ammo - carry-on, we weren't scrutenized to such an extent as now, we didn't have the feds using software sifting to monitor phone calls/e-mails/thread-postings, etc.

Those were much more safer days - in every regard - from the perps, & those who purport to serve us for our safety.

Given the difference between the two, I'd choose to risk my safety against the perps - they were never really that good, but the federales are so very much better.

I feel much safer dealing with the criminal element than the feds. The criminal element only wants a brief & cursory check to take their cut right now, while the feds (or locals) want it all - forever.

Dealing with the criminal element, I can either accept or deny, with lethal force, or not. With the "controllers," you face the full force of the government & all that entails.

fjolnirsson
February 19, 2004, 11:23 AM
I'm pretty sure CA is screwed. The rest of the country still has a chance.

Joe Demko
February 19, 2004, 12:17 PM
Re: labgrade' s apology

I won't accept his apology because no apology was necessary. No harm, no foul.

labgrade
February 19, 2004, 12:59 PM
Golgo-13's last:

You'd better, Sir, 'cause it was offered in the spirit intended.

I "slammed" you wihout knowing your own background - my assumption that you had no idea. I publically offended you, to my unknowing disregard. Had I known your service, I would never have done such.

Turns out you do, to "my bad." &my hat's off to what you do'have done - to the service of us all, Sir.

Public humility is nothing to be ashamed of, & I'm fully willing to accept that.

I screwed up, & appologies are in order, no matter what Golgo-13 thinks.

I do.

Regardless though, I still think we're screwed.

Further restrictions/monitoring on what we do, what we think, what we post, how we communicate - through e-stuff, phones, or any other media, we are involved with the most "investigative properties" ever know.

My initial post, my personal appologies to Golgo-13 (in our PM), & this, are likely very much available to The Feds - a matter of "National Security."

I have no doubt whatsoever that everything posted here, whatever we engage in PMs, or whatever we do in e-mails, are subject to sifting from The Feds'

That "they" even have the desire to monitor us to such an extent is very troubling, not to mention illegal.

We ARE screwed, just from the mention that we are.

That they would monitor our communications is enough to prove that point.

Joe Demko
February 19, 2004, 01:09 PM
Well, you got me. I apologize for not accepting your apology. It was ungentlemanly of me.

We aren't completely screwed. We're screwed on some things, to be sure, notably the gun thing. There's been real and valuable progress made on other things.
I am beginning to think that there is something we should call The Screw Factor. It is a descriptor of how screwed society is. I also believe that it is a constant. For every area where progress is made, civil rights for minorities for example, we have to get screwed somewhere else, like on gun rights. The overall effect is that we are never either more nor less screwed, we only get screwed on different things at different times.

MicroBalrog
February 19, 2004, 03:01 PM
Golgo-13: Please visit Israel.:D

labgrade
February 19, 2004, 11:20 PM
Perhaps an astute enough assessmnet, Joe, & sorry I missed your phone call. Tomorrow, huh? This "fix" somehow seems worse than the initial problem. :rolleyes:

No, not completely screwed. Many, many things to be thankful for & yup, we're living in the best place to be - other than a couple others. ;) & hoo-boy, do we have it good compared to most of the world.

I tend to focus on the negatives - a problem from my failure analysis days, I'd guess.

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