Which is the safest autoloader when round loaded in chamber?


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el Godfather
March 27, 2012, 07:31 PM
Dear THR,
In your opinion, which is the safest semi-auto pistol when carrying round in the chamber?

When selecting your choice, it will be appreciated if you can tell us about that particular weapon's safety mechanisms.

Thanks

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3KillerBs
March 27, 2012, 07:47 PM
The one owned by a person who respects it and handles it appropriately.

GI_Jared
March 27, 2012, 07:53 PM
In terms of avoiding an accidental discharge of a carry gun, I feel that a DA/SA pistol with a safety on it is the safest possible combination. Examples of this would be the Beretta 92 series or Stoeger Cougar.
https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNs8b6t7_pD0_pZ5oG7oEkqEAmfbAQctdv2FsiemxuY6unVttm

9mmepiphany
March 27, 2012, 08:01 PM
If you remove the human element (assume good safety skills) and disregard manual of arms to bring it into firing condition, I agree that the DA/SA with a slide mounted safety is the most mechanically safe when carrying a round in the chamber.

The slide mounted safety requires a more deliberate motion to switch off than a frame mounted one.

The DA first shot gives you more tactile feedback that you have begun your trigger press and gives you more time/distance to stop if needed.

I personally prefer the Beretta 92/96 to the Cougar...but the principle is the same

The Lone Haranguer
March 27, 2012, 08:02 PM
:confused: I would say any of them. All but the very cheapest pistols made in the last ~25 years have "drop safety" devices, to prevent firing if the gun is dropped, struck, thrown or whatever. When you touch or handle the gun, the safety mechanism between your ears comes into play.
That said, some sort of long stroke DAO trigger would probably be the most forgiving of imperfect handling and safety practices. I think most of us would agree that there are phenomena such as hand shaking, etc. under "fight or flight" stresses, sympathetic muscle movement and such that do make this more difficult.

The Lone Haranguer
March 27, 2012, 08:10 PM
In terms of avoiding an accidental discharge of a carry gun, I feel that a DA/SA pistol with a safety on it is the safest possible combination.
If you remove the human element (assume good safety skills) and disregard manual of arms to bring it into firing condition, I agree that the DA/SA with a slide mounted safety is the most mechanically safe when carrying a round in the chamber.
You're correct, for the first shot. After a shot has been fired, you now have a cocked gun.

9mmepiphany
March 27, 2012, 08:18 PM
I know, I was balancing the DAO trigger without the facility of a manual safety and a DA/SA with one. Plus the slide mounted manual safety usually safely de-cocks the gun when applied.

I'm a big fan of the SIG DAK and the Kahr triggers for new shooters...I think the DA trigger teaches superior trigger management skills...but the manual safety is an extra layer should a shooter be awakened from a sound sleep and grab their pistol less than correctly

OregonJohnny
March 27, 2012, 08:29 PM
Another vote for the Beretta 92FS, with the safety on (though I wouldn't recommend carrying it this way without PLENTY of practice in flipping up the safety during the draw). But it certainly is plenty safe this way.

The firing pin block prevents the firing pin from moving forward in the channel unless the trigger is pulled completely to the rear (preventing firing if the gun is dropped), and the slide-mounted safety/decocker rotates the firing pin striker completely out of the way of the hammer. To fire, you'd have to very deliberately swipe the safety lever up to the fire position, and pull a long, heavy double action trigger completely to the rear. After that, the Beretta 92 actually has a pleasant single action trigger pull for 17 more shots. Or of course, the decocker can be used to safely lower the hammer again for double action, or to put the safety back on.

The decocker design on the Beretta is great for a few more purposes - chambering a round, and holstering a loaded gun. I have gotten in the practice of chambering a round with the safety lever on safe. The round chambers, and the hammer automatically returns to the fully down position, and the safety is on. Then I holster the gun, and once it is safely and securely holstered, I flip the safety back up to off.

labhound
March 27, 2012, 08:31 PM
I agree with the Beretta 92, Stoeger/Beretta Cougar. Safety/decocker decocks gun and disables trigger until the safety is removed resulting in a DA first shot.

The Lone Haranguer
March 27, 2012, 08:35 PM
The down side to the "'safe' gun" that is so resistant to inadvertent firing is that long heavy trigger pulls make them harder to shoot deliberately. There is no telling where a missed shot might go. :uhoh: Now, certainly you can overcome this over time with training and practice, but the same could be said of learning proper handling and safety practices.

OregonJohnny
March 27, 2012, 08:50 PM
The down side to the "'safe' gun" that is so resistant to inadvertent firing is that long heavy trigger pulls make them harder to shoot deliberately. There is no telling where a missed shot might go. Now, certainly you can overcome this over time with training and practice, but the same could be said of learning proper handling and safety practices.

I agree. But the same can be said for a DA revolver and it's long heavy trigger pull. Except it will be that way for every shot (unless the shooter has time to cock the hammer to SA).

MY FIL tells me of an ex-cop who recommended to him that with a DA/SA semi-auto, you should shoot that first round into the ground just to quickly get to the SA trigger pull! :eek:

I am taking a 350-round defensive handgun course in a couple of months, and I plan on using my Beretta 92FS (even though it's not my everyday CCW), just to master the DA/SA transition and everything that goes along with the platform.

Babarsac
March 27, 2012, 09:18 PM
HK P7

I really like the grip mounted decocker and the 'thin' profile of the pistol. It's getting harder to find a single stack 9mm these days. Especially one without an external safety you have to operate when under duress.

Zerodefect
March 27, 2012, 09:29 PM
1911.

Cocked and locked, grip safety, thumb safety. Great for 3 gun or carbine training where you're constantly switching between pistol and rifle quickly.

Reholstering a DA/SA (without safety) or a striker fired pistol gets a bit hairy when I'm covered in straps, jackets, and bags. No worries with a 1911, and I find it's nose easy to stuff in a holster.

The best part is unlike DA/SA and striker guns, is the 1911 actually has a good trigger, most likely the best trigger. And draws much faster than a DA/SA with that long, stiff 1st trigger pull.

browningguy
March 27, 2012, 10:01 PM
I also like a single action pistol with manual safety, 1911 or Browning High Power for a carry gun. I like the "safe action" pistols in general but see them as being very unsafe except for the Springfield XD with the grip safety.

I don't like any of the traditional DA pistols, the triggers are almost without exception horrible to me. I have a couple, the CZ 75 comes to mind, but I don't carry it simply because of the long heavy trigger.

56hawk
March 27, 2012, 10:11 PM
HK P7

Can't argue too much with the P7 being safe. Pretty hard to accidentally squeeze the grip and pull the trigger at the same time.

easyg
March 28, 2012, 12:39 AM
In your opinion, which is the safest semi-auto pistol when carrying round in the chamber?

When selecting your choice, it will be appreciated if you can tell us about that particular weapon's safety mechanisms.
Glocks.


There is nothing to confuse the shooter and nothing to complicate the shooting process....

no manual safety, no decocker, no decocker/safety, no heavy DA first shot, no grip safety....




Just keep your finger off the trigger till the target is in your sights and you are ready to shoot.

Yes, it's really that simple.

9mmepiphany
March 28, 2012, 03:51 AM
I was thinking only of current production pistols, but if that isn't a condition of the recommendation, I'd vote for the H&K P7 also.

It has a single action trigger which is completely uncocked until the cocking lever is squeezed...and un-cocks by relaxing your grip. What makes it safer than any of the others listed is that, should you drop a cocked P7, which has no manual or passive safety other than the cocking lever, it will un-cock (with the striker blocked) before it hits the ground

ku4hx
March 28, 2012, 06:02 AM
It's purely mechanical depending solely on whether or not there's a loose nut behind the trigger.

Shadow 7D
March 28, 2012, 06:09 AM
NONE, kinda the point?
It's purely mechanical depending solely on whether or not there's a loose nut behind the trigger.

JDGray
March 28, 2012, 06:20 AM
As mentioned, most guns have a firing pin block, so choose one of those for carry. I prefer a gun without manual safeties, and love the trigger on my Kahr CW9, the long, long pull is the safety. You have plenty of time while pulling the trigger, to think about what your doing, and maybe time to grab a cup of coffee:evil:

mljdeckard
March 28, 2012, 06:40 AM
I don't view it as a relative condition. It is either safe or it isn't. I think that all modern pistols are safe when used correctly. Learn the pistol you use, get some training.

Nordeste
March 28, 2012, 07:22 AM
As for being dumb-proof, I'd say any modern DA/SA semiauto with a manual safety and a firing pin block, the 92FS is a good example. You really want to fire that handgun if you have to work up that lever, located in the wrong place, and that DA pull.

This is one of the reason why I'm leaning to striker fired. The long DA pull is ok at close range, not so much at a longer one.

ActionJax
March 28, 2012, 08:26 AM
How about a DAO with a mechanical safety, such as my S&W Bodyguard 380, placed in a trigger covering pocket holster?

Long trigger pull, mech. safety which prevents the slide from coming back, trigger covered...... pretty safe to me.

Much safer than my Sig P229 DA/SA, at least in my book.

The safety is small, and requires a bit of practice to reliably click off. It shoots great, and I never even use the laser......

hAkron
March 28, 2012, 08:49 AM
When you say 'safest' I assume you mean safe as in 'won't shoot when I don't want it to' and also safe as in 'I won't be hurt or killed by an attacker because it WILL shoot when I need it to without extraneous switches and buttons' in my opinion that would be either the P7 as others have stated, or a striker fired no manual safety weapon such as a Glock. Manual safeties are ok I guess, but they can be in the wrong position at the wrong time and shouldn't be relied on.

tuj
March 28, 2012, 09:24 AM
Even a non-series-80 1911 is fairly safe. In one of the 1911 books, the author loaded up some rounds with just primers, no powder, and made up a drop rig for a 1911. He had to drop the pistol something like 22 feet exactly straight down / barrel straight up, to get the firing pin to eventually hit the primer with enough force to set it off.

Virtually any properly maintained gun is drop-safe within the realm of the real world.

smalls
March 28, 2012, 09:35 AM
The S&W Sigma. With a trigger pull like that, no one "accidentally" pulls it back.
You either did, or didn't.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, but if you have to worry about having a gun that you can't accidentally discharge, you probably shouldn't be carrying a loaded firearm.

marv
March 28, 2012, 10:09 AM
DA/SA with decocker and no safety or DAO with of without safety.

loneviking
March 28, 2012, 10:25 AM
DA/SA with decocker and slide mounted safety. Beretta has models that qualify for this, along with a lot of the 2nd and 3rd gen. S&Ws, some of the Browning models...Sigs which have a decocker but no safety, just a heavy trigger. BTW, all of these have hammers, which make reholstering very safe. Just put your thumb behind the hammer when reholstering and there's no way the hammer is going to come back far enough for the gun to fire. If the hammer does begin to move back, you'll know it and can then stop to see why. Thinking about the safety of various operating systems is a very good idea!

777TRUTH
March 28, 2012, 10:30 AM
In terms of avoiding an accidental discharge of a carry gun, I feel that a DA/SA pistol with a safety on it is the safest possible combination.

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It works for me but it may not for others.

Winkman822
March 28, 2012, 11:14 AM
Honestly, I'd say a DA/SA pistol carried in DA first round or an SAO with the manual safety engaged (i.e. cocked and locked). Personally, I'm of the opinion that a manual safety is not necessary for a DA/SA pistol.

Insofar as Glocks, M&P's annd the like, I'd say they're perfectly safe as well so long as 1) a good holster that covers the trigger guard completely is used, and 2) the user ensures that there is no foreign object in the holster that could cause the weapon to discharge while re-holstering.

I, for one, prefer my trusty Wilson Combat 1911 carried round chambered, full magazine, cocked and locked...and no it don't have no stinkin Series 80 firing pin block.

sargents1
March 28, 2012, 12:18 PM
Dear THR,
In your opinion, which is the safest semi-auto pistol when carrying round in the chamber?

When selecting your choice, it will be appreciated if you can tell us about that particular weapon's safety mechanisms.

Thanks

Hmm, well as others have stated, almost any gun manufactured in the last 50years or so is going to be quite safe - IF carried by someone who has their act together.

There are a lot of factors, but the biggest are:
- Proper holster. One that covers the trigger guard completely.
- Proper clothing, belt and mode of carry.
- Properly sized gun for the operator.
The most important is the one most people would expect:
- Properly trained person doing the carrying who is intimately familiar with their weapon and all of its features as well as all the particulars of their chosen carry rig.

It sounds like you were trying to get an idea of which gun has the best combination of automatic and manual safety devices.

I would say that something like a Ruger SR9/40 which has the usual Glock type automatic trigger safety as well as a manual switch safety would be one answer.

A Smith and Wesson M&P with the manual safety option would fit the same criteria.



Both of those guns have firing pin blocks and auto trigger safeties (a la Glock) and can be carried with a round in the chamber and the manual safety disengaged. They have the usual Striker-fired (hybrid of DA and SA) trigger pull that is about 5-6lbs. They are drop safe without the manual safety engaged. And of course they have the manual safety that completely deactivates the gun.

The Ruger also has a magazine disconnect safety that deactivates the gun when the magazine is removed. I personally dislike that feature because of the fact that the gun is useless if the magazine is lost or damaged....such as if you were in a life-or-death-gunfight and in a semi-panic and accidentally dropped your magazine and stepped on it. Other folks like the mag-disconnect because of the perceived additional safety when handling/cleaning the gun.

Beretta, CZ, Taurus and others all make DA/SA guns with manual safeties that operate very similarly to the Ruger and S&W.

This is a very basic answer to a complicated question. There are Lots of right answers to the basic question of "how to carry safely". To get a comprehensive answer you have some extensive research to do.

Truly, the safest gun is the one handled properly in accordance with gun safety rules by a competent person.

Zerodefect
March 28, 2012, 12:42 PM
The cool thing about the Ruger and M&P is that you can reholster with the safety on, then turn the safety off once it's in there. Piece of mind reholstering, but still fast draws.

Keep in mind that a 1911 draws as fast with the safety as without, its part of my grip. My grip firms up as I rotate the gun forward and that flicks the safety off. It's the only pistol that I'm OK with the idea of turning the safety of during a draw.

Master Blaster
March 28, 2012, 12:48 PM
Never rely on a mechanical device for safety.
Safety is equal to training. Any modern firearm is safe if it is handled properly.

TonyT
March 28, 2012, 03:16 PM
Personally, I prefer a semi auto without an external hammer or external safeties such as S&W99/Walther P99, S&W M&P, Glock or Kahr. I carried a Glock-36 for several years before finally opting for pocket carry of a Kahr PM-9.

TonyT
March 28, 2012, 03:18 PM
Personally, I prefer a semi auto without an external hammer or external safeties such as S&W99/Walther P99, S&W M&P, Glock or Kahr. They all have mechanisms which insure that the striker will not fall unless you pull the trigger. I carried a Glock-36 for several years before finally opting for pocket carry of a Kahr PM-9.

Zerodefect
March 28, 2012, 03:29 PM
Never rely on a mechanical device for safety.
Safety is equal to training. Any modern firearm is safe if it is handled properly.

There's nothing safe about the speed reholster used when transitioning back to rifle.

It's an educated risk. Done right, it's relatively safe, and about 2 seconds slower with a Glock compared to a manual safety gun.

brnmuenchow
March 28, 2012, 05:27 PM
Remove the human element: Beretta 92 or Sig Sauer P226.

GLOOB
March 28, 2012, 05:33 PM
Deleted.

RickMD
March 28, 2012, 07:45 PM
Carrying a DA/SA auto with exposed hammer and de-cocker is no different than carrying a double action revolver. They're designed to be carried with one in the chamber, hammer down, and the safety off. Ever noticed that there's no safety on a revolver? That long, double action trigger is the safety.

surjimmy
March 28, 2012, 09:40 PM
H&k p7

ResidentFarmer
March 28, 2012, 10:17 PM
Hmm, let's see, the one without your finger on the trigger.

trex1310
March 28, 2012, 10:58 PM
Hmm, let's see, the one without your finger on the trigger.


You nailed it.


The Glock Safety

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/trex1310/Gunpics/Glock_Safety.jpg

Tomcat47
March 28, 2012, 11:05 PM
I like the "safe action" pistols in general but see them as being very unsafe except for the Springfield XD with the grip safety.

XD made me look at a striker fired safe action pistol....no interest at all until then!

My brother has the XDm and I love it!

I am currently waiting on XDs to start shipping....Anyone seen a price point for them yet?

marklmurray
March 28, 2012, 11:17 PM
H&K P7 has come up a couple times already and that's my vote, too. It goes from paperweight to deadly tool and back to paperweight with a squeeze of the grip. A great design.

wrs840
March 28, 2012, 11:26 PM
Beretta 92 or S&W 3rd gen style safety-decocker protocol is the safest IMO.

...But I carry a striker-fired no-safety "plastic" pistol almost every day.

Fremmer
March 28, 2012, 11:31 PM
Any semi carried empty chamber with a loaded mag would trump all the other options, it is the same concept of a feature that renders the gun inoperable.

But i guess a decocker can be a good thing, and I think the 1911 has quite a few carry options (half cock etc.).

P7
March 29, 2012, 12:19 AM
Hk p7

coalman
March 29, 2012, 02:04 AM
Beretta 92fs and those like it are the "safest" in terms of being the most forgiving of poor gun handling as the hammer cannot contact FP with safety on, even if the trigger is pulled. This same design can be the least "safe" IMO in high stress as you can forget to take the safety off.

Holstered guns are equally safe. Triggers fire loaded guns. Bullets go the direction the gun is pointed. IMO, pay more attention to these considerations.

alienbogey
March 29, 2012, 02:31 AM
Hk p7

Jim Watson
March 29, 2012, 02:47 AM
Agree that about any modern design auto in good condition is mechanically safe, it won't fire unless the trigger is pulled with any manual safety disengaged.

After that, it gets more complicated. The more external safeties, the more training and practice it takes.
As said, the frequently touted Beretta 92 will very often engage the Waltherish decocker/safety as you rack the slide. Now the question becomes, do you unlock before you holster and depend on the DA start to avoid an AD or do you leave your dingus down, disengage it on the draw and then undertake the DA pull?
OK, are you then ready to repeat the process after you reload under stress?

Other types have their own little problems. Ever holster a Sig-Sauer without stroking the decocking lever? I have.

And the P7. I was taught to acquire a firing grip on the pistol in the holster. That gives you a cocked gun with 3 lb trigger when pulling the H&K. Keep track of that forefinger.
I could only manage it by shooting P7 and nothing but. A dozen rounds out of a different action type got me into some very strange behavior with the squeezecocker. I sold it, not being willing to devote my life to it.

Agsalaska
March 29, 2012, 02:55 AM
This is a good question I have pondered ever since I had my first child. I used to carry a Kahr K40 in a shoulder holster a lot. I was driving one day with the baby daughter in the back and I realized I had a loaded, chambered handgun aimed directly at my daughter. I practice a lot(or used to) and understand how incredibly remote the possibility of actually shooting it on accident was. But I still couldnt get over it. I got a ton of advice about it. Everything from dont chamber it(not an option) to carrying a revolver with the first hole empty(not a great option but actually not the worst.) I finally decided that the answer was a handgun with a decock and safety or a single action 1911.

The other problem in my brain grew as my kids got older. I am as safe as I can possibly be with my guns. I use safes, dont leave a bunch of loaded guns laying around, etc. But no matter how safe you are you cant completely eliminate the human element. Now my daughter is a big sister and can get just about anywhere in the house that is not behind a lock. And at four years old you cant teach her 100% to keep her hands off of something. And if she was determined and I slipped and left the Kahr, or Glock, on the counter she could fire it. It would be a complete accident of course but it woldnt matter. But a 1911, or a Beretta 92, USP Compact, etc. would probably be beyond her abilities even if she had five or ten minutes to play with it.

As much as you want to yell train train train, it doesnt matter. Home tragedies are realities. In fact it could be argued that the risk of a home accident can be greater than actually meeting a threat outside your home depending on where you lived. I would rather have to teach myself to manage the decock of a 92, even if it adds to the compexity or a possibly frightening and panicked situation, if it brought more safety to the human element at home.




Edit-Of course training matters. The point is you cannot 100% train away human element. You can only minimize it as much as you can. And how much you can depends entirely on the person.

JohnKSa
March 29, 2012, 03:09 AM
I'd say if you were going for maximum safety and that was your only concern, a true DAO autoloader with a firing pin/drop safety, magazine safety and a manual safety would be hard to beat. By "true DAO", I means something along the lines of the Beretta 92D--yes, I know it doesn't have a manual safety or magazine safety.

That would give you a long, relatively heavy, but smooth trigger pull for each shot, and the ability to deactivate the trigger with a manual safety or by dropping the magazine. In addition the gun is never really cocked except immediately before a shot is fired.

Nushif
March 29, 2012, 07:01 AM
Just something to consider when discussing "safe" guns.

IF we are truly removing the human element we have to remove the trigger pull as an element. A healthy or even borderline healthy human can easily pull even a heavy and long trigger. Otherwise the gun would be unusable.

So a purely mechanically safe gun would have more and more mechanical safeties, rather than just reminding the human (again with that human element) that they're pulling a trigger.

Imagine a .5 pound trigger, with an external safety, grip safety, several drop safeties and squeeze cocker. Versus a Glock with a 12 pound trigger pull and all mechanical safeties removed.

Unless we are talking with the human element involved here, which would mean we have to account for some pretty darned unpredictable stuff.

Pyro
March 29, 2012, 07:16 AM
From what I've been told the 1911 in Condition One is the safest firearm to carry with +1.
Something about the high number of failsafes or something...I dunno.

When it comes down to it..it's all about the user.

smalls
March 29, 2012, 03:01 PM
Putting down the hammer on a loaded 1911 doesn't seem like a great idea, either, agsalaska.

tuj
March 29, 2012, 03:06 PM
I think the 1911 has quite a few carry options (half cock etc.).

NO! Half-cock is not a safe condition for the 1911. The half-cock notch is there to prevent a hammer-slip from hitting the firing pin without the trigger being pulled. It is NOT a carry condition that is safe.

9mmepiphany
March 29, 2012, 03:57 PM
And the P7. I was taught to acquire a firing grip on the pistol in the holster. That gives you a cocked gun with 3 lb trigger when pulling the H&K.
The P7 has a different manual of arms.

The master grip in the holster is taken without depressing the squeeze cocker. You can still draw the gun as it takes about 12lbs to depress. The gun is cocked at the same point, in your draw, as you should take off the thumb safety on a 1911. It only takes about 4lbs to hold the lever depressed...it is easily done with just the middle finger

Pyro
March 29, 2012, 05:44 PM
NO! Half-cock is not a safe condition for the 1911. The half-cock notch is there to prevent a hammer-slip from hitting the firing pin without the trigger being pulled. It is NOT a carry condition that is safe.
Are their any other weapons that can be carried in half-cock safely?
My little .25 I carry in half-cock everywhere.

Bovice
March 29, 2012, 05:52 PM
any DA gun with an exposed hammer. When reholstering, you can put your thumb over the hammer and if the trigger gets snagged, you have more than one way to know it before disaster strikes. First, the pull will be heavy. Second, you'll feel the hammer coming back.

GLOOB
March 29, 2012, 06:39 PM
My little .25 I carry in half-cock everywhere.
I just read of a veteran that died when he dropped his Colt .25 auto from waist high, and it fired. Half-cock notch is usually not a good way to carry a gun. There are only a couple of exceptions. Some very early 1911's were (arguably) designed to carry on halfcock. And some eastern European and Russion milsurps. But regardless how U-shaped the half cock notch is, nor how it purportedly locks the hammer or even disengages the trigger, if the gun has an inertial firing pin, hammer all the way down is always going to be safer. (Though not always as practical. Example of this is the FNX. The decocker only drops to the half cock notch. But since the gun has a firing pin safety, it's safer to just leave it on the halfcock notch, rather than risking an ND to lower it all the way.)

When the gun is on halfcock, a hard hit to the back of the hammer can break something. When the sear or hammer snaps or slips under high stress, it can send the hammer (or the broken part of the hammer) flying into the firing pin at high speed. It doesn't matter there's only a fraction of an inch of travel, cuz when the parts give, an enormous amount of tension is suddenly released. If you put your gun on halfcock into a vice and slowly increase the pressure until it breaks, the gun might fire, even though there's nothing being thrown around at high speed. If the hammer is all the way down to begin with, this can't happen, no matter what bends or breaks. You can trust a half cock notch to stand up to the momentum of the hammer should it slip off your thumb. You shouldn't really trust it to hold up to the gun falling and putting the momentum of the entire gun onto the same mechanism.

Zerodefect
March 29, 2012, 07:23 PM
1911 should be carried "Cocked and Locked" or "Empty Pipe".

Half Cock is not safe.
Hammer down is not safe.

Both are slower anyways. A cocked and locked 1911 is as safe as it gets. You have to get over the stigma of the scary cocked hammer.

Blue68f100
March 29, 2012, 08:03 PM
Putting down the hammer on a loaded 1911 doesn't seem like a great idea, either, agsalaska.

The only time you manually drop the hammer on a 1911 is when it's NOT LOADED. Which means you clear the gun, chamber clear mag removed.

dondavis3
March 29, 2012, 08:15 PM
DA/SA with a safety or a decocker are the safest in my opinion.

:cool:

Pilot
March 29, 2012, 08:34 PM
The Half Cock position on the 1911 is perfectly safe for carry, but I wouldn't choose that over cocked and locked as it requires more time and effort to get the gun into firing mode.

Nushif
March 29, 2012, 09:15 PM
The only time you manually drop the hammer on a [...]

Gotta say I am mildly tired of this kind of line of thinking. People dropped the hammer on single action revolvers for a whole lot of years and some of them even *le gasp* did so under stress!
Frankly, if a shooter does not feel like they can possibly drop the hammer on a single action gun, they are missing out on doing a very, very critical task in the manual of arms. You need to know how to work your gun if you can't drop the hammer in a controlled manner.

Jim Watson
March 30, 2012, 12:14 AM
The P7 has a different manual of arms.

The master grip in the holster is taken without depressing the squeeze cocker.

Yes, I know. I developed kind of a "plucking" motion to get the gun out of the holster without squeezing it hard enough to cock before it approached the target. Way different from normal use of Colt, S&W, etc., etc. Which is why I said I did not want to devote my life to it and sold it so I could enjoy other action types.

johnnydollar
March 30, 2012, 12:31 AM
Another vote for the HK P7.

Swing
March 30, 2012, 12:34 AM
1911.

Cocked and locked, grip safety, thumb safety.

Agreed. Doesn't get more simple/basic than a cocked'n'locked 1911.

Well, the Walther P99 has a neato chamber-loaded indicator, but I'm still going with the Colt masterpiece.

9mmepiphany
March 30, 2012, 12:35 AM
Yes, I know. I developed kind of a "plucking" motion to get the gun out of the holster without squeezing it hard enough to cock before it approached the target. Way different from normal use of Colt, S&W, etc., etc. Which is why I said I did not want to devote my life to it and sold it so I could enjoy other action types.
I went the other way and draw all my pistols with a scooping motion. I find it helps me from applying too much pressure with the strong hand and allows a better trigger press

Agsalaska
March 30, 2012, 01:33 AM
The only time you manually drop the hammer on a 1911 is when it's NOT LOADED. Which means you clear the gun, chamber clear mag removed.
I understand that. Im not scared of dropping the hammer on it. I can prevent it from firing. Im worried about leaving it down and something hitting it. From what I understand that is the issue.

Either way, when i referred to a 1911, I was referring to a cocked and locked 1911.

exavid
March 30, 2012, 01:53 AM
We all have our opinion but I feel safest with a DAO pistol. My two favorite carry guns are an LCP and LC9. With their long trigger pull they are highly unlikely to be fired accidently. I never use the safety on the LC9, there's just about no chance to fire either gun negligently. True the trigger pull is long and not light but with some practice this isn't a problem, in fact it's probably an advantage because under stress there's less chance of a tense finger firing a round compared to a SA pistol once the safety is off. I have no problem hitting an 8x10" steel plate at 25yds with the LCP, it took several hundred rounds to get to that point and plenty more to keep sharp with it, the LC9 isn't nearly as hard to get and stay accurate with it's much better sights.

Bassleg
March 30, 2012, 01:59 AM
I never leave a loaded handgun laying around if it's loaded it's on me or in the safe.

Inebriated
March 30, 2012, 02:25 AM
The one that has a responsible user.

theQman23
March 30, 2012, 03:31 PM
Glocks.


There is nothing to confuse the shooter and nothing to complicate the shooting process....

no manual safety, no decocker, no decocker/safety, no heavy DA first shot, no grip safety....




Just keep your finger off the trigger till the target is in your sights and you are ready to shoot.

Yes, it's really that simple.



Yeaup, What he said.........

Zerodefect
March 30, 2012, 07:25 PM
There's no harm in squeezing a HK P7 on the draw.

More likely to blast yourself reholstering, but any sound draw technique should be very safe as long as you keep your trigger finger pointed and dont mistake it for your grip.

My technique:
-sweep and/or lift garment
-slam the web of may hand in hard to the top of the pistol
-push down and squeeze hard with thumb out
-draw
-reposition thumb as you rotate your pistol forward.

Pushing down hard insures that you get a consistant easy to duplicate grip that is also high up on the pistol. It also pushes your belt and holster down giving your arm an extra inch or two to snap it out of a stiff holster easier.

With a Crossbreed Holster I just sweep the pistol and snatch it with my fingers. 5 oclock is too far back for me to get a proper grip. The cost of deep concealment on my frame.

Seven For Sure
March 30, 2012, 08:27 PM
I guess if you have no finger control, any pistol with a safety that happens to be on when you pull the trigger inadvertantly. Otherwise treat every gun like it's loaded with safety off. Can't go wrong there.

9mmepiphany
March 30, 2012, 09:16 PM
This thread is drifting, it isn't about shooter technique, it is about which pistol is the mechanically the safest independent of the shooter's training.

Let us please stay on-point

gym
April 18, 2012, 10:07 PM
1911 45 Colt series 70.

supham
April 19, 2012, 12:09 AM
My LCP. I think it has a 72lb trigger pull with 3" of travel.

exavid
April 19, 2012, 02:46 AM
Most any DAO pistol. LCP and LC9 are fine examples, long trigger pull and double action weight of pull. No need for a safety or to use a safety on these type guns.

meanmrmustard
April 19, 2012, 08:20 AM
Most any DAO pistol. LCP and LC9 are fine examples, long trigger pull and double action weight of pull. No need for a safety or to use a safety on these type guns.
Some of the lighter DAO triggers would make me feel a wee bit unsafe carrying one in the pipe, such as a Glock for example. Then I hear about folks lightening that pull even more. Cripes!

Nushif
April 19, 2012, 08:40 AM
Some of the lighter DAO triggers would make me feel a wee bit unsafe carrying one in the pipe, such as a Glock for example. Then I hear about folks lightening that pull even more. Cripes!

Sure, but remember. We're talking about mechanically safe here. And just in terms of being mechanically safe a 20 pound DAO trigger pull with no drop safety isn't very safe. Because all that has to happen is that the trigger needs to be pulled.
The keyword really is MECHANICAL safety.

TonyAngel
April 19, 2012, 04:13 PM
I really mean no disrespect to anyone, but I've been away from THR for a little while, I come back and find that threads/questions like this one are actually being entertained. The OP's question really makes it sound like he intends to rely on a mechanical safety mechanism. I can only imagine how many people have been accidentally shot by a firearm that presumably had the safety engaged.

My advise would be to go and take a firearm safety course or two and then start to think about getting a firearm.

In any case, if I had to go down the road of answering the question, I'd say that the safest handgun is the Glock, just based on my experiences with several handgun designs. In its 100%, ready to go condition, the pistol will have a round chambered, but is not "cocked." The action of squeezing the trigger is what cocks the pistol in preparation to fire. The Glock (like most modern firearms) also incorporates a firing pin safety (which I believe some here are referring to a "drop" safety).

With the Glock, there is no false sense of security. If you know the weapon and treat it properly, you know that when you draw it from its holster and you squeeze the trigger, it's going to go bang. No ifs, ands or buts. The only way it's going off is if you squeeze the trigger.

exavid
April 19, 2012, 06:44 PM
I should have said most any DAO with a hammer, striker fired pistols are another story since they will fire with a lot lighter, shorter trigger pull.

meanmrmustard
April 19, 2012, 08:10 PM
Sure, but remember. We're talking about mechanically safe here. And just in terms of being mechanically safe a 20 pound DAO trigger pull with no drop safety isn't very safe. Because all that has to happen is that the trigger needs to be pulled.
The keyword really is MECHANICAL safety.
Mechanical safety appears nowhere in the OP.

Fremmer
April 19, 2012, 08:14 PM
Supham made me laugh. I'm right there with ya on my new p1. Gotta be at least a 12 pound d/a pull.

exavid
April 19, 2012, 09:20 PM
Just because all you have to do is pull the trigger doesn't make the gun unsafe. The aforementioned hammer operated DAO would be safe to carry with one in the spout just as a modern revolver is safe to carry with all six chambers loaded. Not many revolvers ever had a mechanical safety. They're not needed because they either have to be cocked prior to firing or in the case of a DA revolver the trigger has to be pulled. Typically a DA revolver has a long, and somewhat heavy trigger pull. The same as a hammer equipped DAO autoloader. In neither case will the gun fire without considerable pressure on the the trigger and a long pull. These kind of guns are safe to carry with loaded chambers without the use of a safety.
If you want a gun with absolute safety with a round in the chamber remove the firing pin.

dmazur
April 20, 2012, 12:20 AM
Im worried about leaving it down and something hitting it. From what I understand that is the issue.

Often misunderstood. The 1911 hammer, when lowered, rests against the slide. The firing pin has moved (perhaps) halfway against the firing pin spring, but does not protrude. This is the meaning of the term "inertial".

In order for the firing pin to travel all the way and hit the primer, it has to be struck by the hammer at speed in order to develop enough inertia to overcome the firing pin spring.

A related misunderstanding is thinking that dropping the 1911 on its hammer is what causes unintentional firing in drop tests. It is dropping it on its muzzle that creates sufficient inertia in the firing pin for it to fire the primer. (Strangely enough, without any motion of the hammer at all...)

Titanium firing pins reduce the inertia and make the 1911 drop-safe, without the complexity of firing pin blocks.

So, Condition 2 is a safe enough method of carry -- the problem lies in getting it into Condition 2 without letting the hammer slip from under your grip (compromised by the bobbed hammer spur and beavertail grip safety) and firing the chambered round...

If you're really, really good with this, you then need to practice it with cold, wet hands (and an unloaded 1911) and see how it works.

Those with GI pattern 1911's need not play. Yours are already easy to put into Condition 2. :)

mingansr
April 20, 2012, 06:03 AM
Dear THR,
In your opinion, which is the safest semi-auto pistol when carrying round in the chamber?

When selecting your choice, it will be appreciated if you can tell us about that particular weapon's safety mechanisms.

Thanks
I like my x d 40 with a SAO trigger. The combination of the USA trigger and a grip safety give me the confidence to carry with the barrel pointed at my parts IMPO

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

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