Handgun for life


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freezingduck
March 29, 2012, 04:15 AM
Here in Norway we have some pretty stupid laws...
To buy a handgun you have to be a active member of a handgun club for 6 months,.
You probably won't be able to buy more than one or two handguns in the same caliber, so that means that I really have to think hard about my choice of gun...
The gun will be used for IPSC production, target shooting, but also a class or two.
I cant legally carry it concealed in Norway, so size is not a huge factor.

I am torn between these handguns:

CZ 75 SP1 Shadow
Glock 19
Glock 17
S&W M&P
Sig P226
HK P30L


Speed is one of my primary concerns, since it is IPSC.
Price doesn't matter.
I do train at the range 2-3 days a week, and dry practice at home almost every day, so I spend a fair amount of time getting good with a handgun.
I know most trainers, like travis haley and james yeager recommends glock due to the same trigger pull every time, but most ipsc shooters seem to use the cz 75 shadow, and they are pretty damn fast:)

The problem is that I am never able to hold all of these handguns at the same time:(
Every time I grab a new handgun it feels right...

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LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 29, 2012, 04:32 AM
Firstly, welcome to The High Road! Glad you chose us to come ask for advice!

I would honestly go with Glock. Since size isn't an issue you could go with the 17L (long slide if my nomenclature is correct) or a 34. I say Glock because of the large after-market support, ease of service, and easy-to-find, do-it-yourself replacements should a part wear out.

As a proud owner of a Glock 22 Gen 4 in .40 S&W (if you're not familiar with Glocks Models/calibers), Glock has my recommendation. I am not a Glock fanboy, and this one is the first Glock I've ever fired, but it seems like Glock has hit it out of the ball-park with their pistols.

One stipulation, though. Post pics of your purchase, or it never happened ;).

sundance43.5
March 29, 2012, 05:20 AM
It seems you're pretty set on IPSC, in which case the CZ Shadow seems to be the best choice. I'm not familiar with the gun laws in Norway, but if you can keep it in your home, then the Glock 17 is the best choice on your list.

bannockburn
March 29, 2012, 06:28 AM
I think if your primarily interested in using the pistol for IPSC competition then the CZ SP-01 Shadow would be a great choice.

meanmrmustard
March 29, 2012, 06:40 AM
I think if your primarily interested in using the pistol for IPSC competition then the CZ SP-01 Shadow would be a great choice.
I agree. The CZ is a popular pistol in matches round here, and I myself own and shoot CZ. They are easily one of the more accurate pistols out of the box. And due to the slide in frame design, they put the recoil straight into you palm rather than flipping the muzzle making it easier and faster to acquire targets on the move.
Second choice I think would be the 226.
If neither of those due to weight, then I'd say G17. It too is popular in IPSC from what I hear.

chieftain
March 29, 2012, 06:44 AM
Many Americans think access to parts and accessories for the Glock will be the same in Norway that it is here in the States. I doubt it.

The HK P30L exists to fulfill a Norwegian contract. I like the P30 and it will fit you probably better than any of the others you mention. I own several Glocks, SIGs, M&Ps, HK's (1 P39L & 3 P30's all LEMS) also the 45 & 45c. I did just pick up one of the new Walther PPQ's that everyone is talking about, last month. It may knock the P30's out of first spot for me. Just starting to shoot it. I like it.

Consider one of the SIG X series guns or stick with the CZ. If IPSC is your game.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 29, 2012, 06:48 AM
Chieftain, I doubt it'd be too difficult to find parts/someone to fix it. If they can have pistols there, I'm sure there's someone to fix it, or the ability to order replacement parts yourself.

XTrooper
March 29, 2012, 07:03 AM
Heckler & Koch P30L

Here's my P30LS Variant 1 (light LEM) in .40 S&W. It's my carry pistol and is a real pleasure to shoot.

http://xtrooper.net/HK_P30LS_2.jpg

Regarding IPSC, the HK Team does quite well here in the States: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-usa-shooting-team-announcements/148209-hk-shooting-team-finishes-top-10-2011-ipsc-national-championship.html

freezingduck
March 29, 2012, 08:01 AM
Thank you all for some great help and answers, as far as I understand, the CZ is a great competition pistol, but I am unsure if I would take it to a class;)

We have a wide variety of divisions, when I break every rule down in the different divisions where I can shoot 9mm, I come down to 8 different handguns, then I need to buy them in a special order for size, trigger type, trigger pull, sights and modifications.
I am actually thinking about doing it this way.
Starting with a G17 with an aftermarket trigger, G19 with an aftermarket trigger,
a cz with adjustable sights and aftermarket grips, and so on...

If I buy a G19 and keeping it factory, I can shoot in every division except a pocket pistol division, but whats the fun in that;)

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 29, 2012, 08:33 AM
You're very welcome.

The decision is yours, my Norwegian friend. We can only give advice, we can't make you buy. There's an old adage, you may have heard of: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your purchase. And like I said, post some pics of your purchase, we all love a bit of show-and-tell.

David E
March 29, 2012, 09:03 AM
The 17-L isn't legal for Production, as it wont fit the IPSC box. This is what prompted the creation of the 34 and 35.

If you reloaded, and if components are easy to get, a strong case can be made for the 35 as a great "do-it-all" gun, being competitive in Limited scoring "major," or, with minor power factor ammo, Production. If it makes more sense for you to go with a 9mm, then the 34, 17 or even 19 are very good choices over the other brands listed.

CZ's may be encountered semi-regularly, but not nearly as often as the Glocks and M&P's are. Sigs and HK's are seldom found in the holsters of competitors.

Of all these guns, the Glock stands above them all as far as being able to modify or work on them yourself, which sounds like it could be a big factor in Norway.

Zerodefect
March 29, 2012, 09:11 AM
If I could only have a small # of pistols:

Ed Brown Molon Labe
Glock 19
Kahr P380

XTrooper
March 29, 2012, 09:13 AM
Sigs and HK's are seldom found in the holsters of competitors.




I believe this has more to do with cost than any reflection on the merits of one or another pistol. The fact is, you can buy nearly two Glocks for some HK and SIG models. I'm sure this plays into the decision-making process of many competitors.

freezingduck
March 29, 2012, 09:46 AM
Does the the CZ have any advantages over a P226 Tactical ops?
Better trigger, lower bore, and so on...

mgmorden
March 29, 2012, 10:25 AM
Given that IPSC rules have a 5lb first pull minimum and a "no touch" policy regarding most trigger modifications, the CZ SP-01 Shadow is the obvious choice here.

The 17-L isn't legal for Production, as it wont fit the IPSC box. This is what prompted the creation of the 34 and 35.

The 34/35 aren't legal for IPSC Production either (though its fine and mostly the dominant gun in USPSA Production), because Glock marketed them specifically as competition type guns, so IPSC won't put them on the Production approved list. Remember that Production division (regardless of if you're in USPSA or IPSC) doesn't use a box - it uses an actual list of approved guns. If you're going to go Glock under standard IPSC rules the Glock 17 is about the best you can do. Comparing stock triggers between the Glock (or any striker fired gun) to the CZ, I'd take the CZ in a heartbeat.

David E
March 29, 2012, 12:07 PM
I believe this has more to do with cost than any reflection on the merits of one or another pistol. The fact is, you can buy nearly two Glocks for some HK and SIG models. I'm sure this plays into the decision-making process of many competitors.

Cost is often a factor, but not the only one. Being able to maximize a gun mechanism in competition is a big factor. TDA action types just don't lend themselves easily to IPSC shooting. Yes, it's been done, but that's the exception, not the rule.

David E
March 29, 2012, 12:23 PM
The 34/35 aren't legal for IPSC Production either (though its fine and mostly the dominant gun in USPSA Production). Remember that Production division (regardless of if you're in USPSA or IPSC) doesn't use a box - it uses an actual list of approved guns.

For Production, that's true, but the OP mentioned shooting in multiple divisions where they would use a box, presuming the matches he's talking about are sanctioned by IPSC. (he mentioned a "pocket pistol " division)

If you're going to go Glock under standard IPSC rules the Glock 17 is about the best you can do.

Not a bad choice at all!

Comparing stock triggers between the Glock (or any striker fired gun) to the CZ, I'd take the CZ in a heartbeat.

That's why they make Ford AND Chevy trucks.

Many people who praise the stock CZ trigger pull are never talking about that first hard, long and gritty DA shot.

In addition, there are two major problems with the CZ: the long reach to the trigger for that all-important first shot and being able to work on it yourself easily.

The trigger reach and hard, rough pull may not be an issue, depending on the individual, but the second can be a significant one.

mgmorden
March 29, 2012, 01:56 PM
For Production, that's true, but the OP mentioned shooting in multiple divisions where they would use a box, presuming the matches he's talking about are sanctioned by IPSC. (he mentioned a "pocket pistol " division)

He did mention specifically though that he intended to use the gun for IPSC Production too, and the motive for the question was that he can't easily buy multiple guns. As such, any gun he gets is going to have to be IPSC Production legal to satisfy his goals.

As to the trigger, again - it's really about the stock requirements. Put it this way I've sold off a CZ-75 (just a regular one) yet still own a Glock and other striker fired guns. The thing is none of the triggers in those striker guns is stock and all break at less than 5 lbs (my M&P is close to 2.5lbs). As much as I love those guns on this side of the pond, they just won't work in Production over there. I'd much rather live with the relatively bad first pull on the CZ to get the better trigger for the rest of the stage :).

Besides - while I personally ain't giving up my M&P for a DA/SA, the reigning USPSA Production Champion (Ben Stoeger) DID win that title with a Beretta 92 . . . ;)

XTrooper
March 29, 2012, 03:08 PM
Cost is often a factor, but not the only one. Being able to maximize a gun mechanism in competition is a big factor. TDA action types just don't lend themselves easily to IPSC shooting. Yes, it's been done, but that's the exception, not the rule.
I totally agree, but this has nothing to do with the H&K P30L most often used in IPSC and IDPA competition as most competitors shooting them use the LEM models, NOT the TDAs.

allaroundhunter
March 29, 2012, 03:16 PM
Since you will only be able to get one or at most two of these, get a nice gun first, not a Glock. Get a gun that will work flawlessly and last forever, but also shows some style.

That being said:
1. Sig P226/HKP30L

Close 2nd. CZ

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 29, 2012, 07:59 PM
I'd just say Glock. Ease of repairs. Reliable. Already gave the OP my opinion, but just sayin' lol.

David E
March 29, 2012, 11:13 PM
, the reigning USPSA Production Champion (Ben Stoeger) DID win that title with a Beretta 92 . . . ;)

One of the rare exceptions to which I acknowledged exist.

I've handled Matt Minks and Angus Hobdell's CZ and that first trigger pull was on both of them, dare I say, a delight. But I suspect there aren't many gunsmiths in Norway that can duplicate it.

If the Glock trigger breaks at less than 5#, then it's a simple matter to do a parts swap on the kitchen table to bring the poundage up.

wlewisiii
March 29, 2012, 11:44 PM
Of your list, I have a Glock 19 and would happily recommend it for the uses you describe. I prefer a NY1/3.5 connector based trigger but I can see the attraction of factory stock for you.

I'll argue that the Glock is best for you because it is simple and reliable. As someone who was a military armorer, I appreciate those two virtues over any others in service weapons. If I'm out having fun at the range, my Mauser C96 is an absolute hoot. My single action Blackhawk in .45 colt is even more fun at the range. But if it comes down to being utterly certain that it will go bang and that the bullet will go exactly where I want it to? Then I have my Glock 19. They're ugly as sin but they always work. And that is enough, in the end.

RH45
March 31, 2012, 08:51 AM
If I lived overseas, and shot under IPSC rules, instead of USPSA rules, I'd get a SIG all-round.
That said, I also shoot IDPA, and a SIG is too heavy. Even though I still own 3 Glocks, I've switched to M&P for production.
You need to shoot a few, and see what works best for YOU!

coalman
April 1, 2012, 12:40 PM
Glock 17.

miles1
April 1, 2012, 04:35 PM
Id say glock 19.

el Godfather
April 1, 2012, 05:02 PM
From your list I would go with P30L and/or Shadow.

clang
April 1, 2012, 06:42 PM
If you are only going to be able to buy one, and you want is to last forever, and price does not matter, I would go with a Smith & Wesson PPC9:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLf1fMwai8o

Video is of the 6" version, I would get the 5"er. I believe it is acalled something else for the export market.

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