Lee Factory Crimp Die?


PDA






Parks2055
March 29, 2012, 12:43 PM
Hey Folks - Quick Question.
Is the Lee Factory crimp Die a Roll Crimp or Tapper Crimp?
I thought is was a Tapper crimp, but just read a forum were a guy said it was a Roll crimp?
On the topic - What is best for 40S&W?
And is Roll Crimp better for Revolver rounds?
Thx,

If you enjoyed reading about "Lee Factory Crimp Die?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Jeff H
March 29, 2012, 12:54 PM
Is the Lee Factory crimp Die a Roll Crimp or Tapper Crimp?

Depends on the caliber. For 40S&W, it would be a taper crimp.

Parks2055
March 29, 2012, 12:59 PM
Ah - I see. Each caliber will come with the approprriate FCD.
Thanks.

rcmodel
March 29, 2012, 01:00 PM
Auto pistol calibers headspace on the case mouth, and you must use a taper-crimp to preserve a case mouth for them to headspace on.
Auto pistol calibers shot in a moon-clipped revolver could be roll-crimped as the clip would set the headspace..

Revolvers use Roll-crimp to keep the bullets from pulling under recoil.
A taper-crimp could be used in light recoiling target loads.

Lee provideds the correct crimp for each caliber in the seating dies, as well as in the FCD.

rc

W.E.G.
March 29, 2012, 01:16 PM
I thought the Lee "factory-crimp" die was just a pinch-collet arrangement.

So, neither a conventional taper crimp, nor a roll-crimp.

Isn't it actually a simple SQUASH-crimp?
The more you turn it down, the more squash the collet-fingers appy?

If the Lee die can provide the roll-crimp element too, wouldn't it need some sort of lump-shaped shoulder on the collet-prongs to accomplish this?

jcwit
March 29, 2012, 01:20 PM
The question arises,

Are we referring to FCD in handgun calibers or FCD in bottle neck rifle calibers?

cfullgraf
March 29, 2012, 01:27 PM
The OP is talking about 40 S&W so handgun FCD.

Rifle FCDs are "squash crimp".

Handgun FCDs crimp in a more conventional manner with the sizer ring.

Walkalong
March 29, 2012, 01:32 PM
The FCD for straight walled pistol calibers is not a collet type. It will come with the appropriate type of crimp, either taper or roll. Case lengths need to be reasonably close to each other for consistent crimps.

For bottle necked, and perhaps straight walled, rifle calibers, the FCD is a collet type crimp die which is oblivious to case length.

The .357 Sig is a pistol caliber, but is bottle necked and the FCD for it is a collet type.

unknwn
March 29, 2012, 04:49 PM
There are a few more Lee FCDs in straight-walled pistol cartridge calibers available from an exclusive supplier that provide for the collet FCD .
I have and use them for .357 magnum & .45 Colt :
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=53_54

mingansr
March 30, 2012, 07:04 AM
as usual, take the advice and knowledge of RCMODEL. of course, the others have good thoughts too. good bunch here

chhodge69
March 30, 2012, 11:08 PM
Here's what Lee has to say about it: (with a nice cross-sectional view of their die)

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/

Walkalong
March 31, 2012, 10:46 AM
Here's what Lee has to say about it:
The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical
For the Carbide FCD that this quote is from, this is total BS. I believe it gets a lot of new reloaders in trouble. We are always having folks over crimping and asking what is wrong. (Yes, with other die brands as well.)

While the o-ring set up has some flexibility, and case length is not quite as critical as with a crimp ledge that is built in to the body of the die, you most certainly can screw it down too far and buckle/ruin cases.

They should be more clear in their statements.

GLOOB
April 1, 2012, 10:20 AM
I figured they meant it was impossible to buckle a case outward, so as it won't chamber. Yeah, you can overcrimp it, but it'll still load and go bang. If it fits in a finishing die, it'll fit in your chamber. Which is always a good thing, except when it's not.

Walkalong
April 1, 2012, 12:46 PM
It can buckle it outwards, the carbide ring just mashes it back. :D

mdi
April 1, 2012, 01:14 PM
FWIW; I had a Lee FCD for .44 Magnum and used it once. I shoot 99% cast bullets and the FCD swages down my cast bullets so they are too small and lead the barrel. I fixed it though; I punched out the carbide ring and use the die for roll crimping only! For my 45 ACPs, I have no need to post-seat-size my ammo, as my reloading methods result in no chambering problems.

I believe a new reloader should learn how to reload properly so there is no need to "fix" their reoads to chamber properly...

James2
April 1, 2012, 07:41 PM
I have no need and no desire for a Lee FCD. I suggest you put that thing in a dark spot and forget you have it.

Seat and crimp with the die that came with your die set. This is the way to eliminate all the problems caused by the Lee FCD.

Sport45
April 1, 2012, 10:04 PM
This is the way to eliminate all the problems caused by the Lee FCD.

What problems are those? Every pistol FCD I have puts a nice crimp on the round and the sizing ring barely kisses the brass if it touches it at all.

Jeff H
April 1, 2012, 10:34 PM
What problems are those? Every pistol FCD I have puts a nice crimp on the round and the sizing ring barely kisses the brass if it touches it at all.

You must not shoot lead bullets. If you did, you probably wouldn't make that statement.

But, they do crimp nicely. Of course, the regular seating die crimps nicely too.

jcwit
April 1, 2012, 10:54 PM
I have no need and no desire for a Lee FCD. I suggest you put that thing in a dark spot and forget you have it.

Seat and crimp with the die that came with your die set. This is the way to eliminate all the problems caused by the Lee FCD.

This is just what I did. One day the kids will go thru the stuff in the back of the drawer and say, Wonder why Dad had this and never used it.

What problems are those? Every pistol FCD I have puts a nice crimp on the round and the sizing ring barely kisses the brass if it touches it at all.


The Lee FCD does fix all the non existent problems.

I believe a new reloader should learn how to reload properly so there is no need to "fix" their reoads to chamber properly...


So true, so true!

Sport45
April 2, 2012, 01:26 AM
You must not shoot lead bullets. If you did, you probably wouldn't make that statement.


My handgun shooting is 95% or more done with cast bullets. For all practical purposes the sizing ring in the FCD is the same diameter as the chamber. If the FCD was squeezing the round enough to swage the bullet the cartridge wouldn't have fit in one of my chambers anyway.

Okay. They might fit in the chamber of my .45 Redhawk, but .45 Colt chambers are very large anyway. Bullets sized for the throats of that gun are no problem at all in the FCD.

NeuseRvrRat
April 2, 2012, 01:56 AM
weekly argue-about-the-FCD thread

Parks2055
April 2, 2012, 09:09 AM
Ya - feel like I opened a small can-O-worms with the FCD.
People seem to be very for or against Lee FCD.
I figured for starting to reload it may make it easier to learn doing the steps separately.
However, I am having trouble keeping a consistant COL so am thinking to try seat and crimp together and see if this helps.
May not be the issue, but at least a different approach.

cfullgraf
April 2, 2012, 09:49 AM
However, I am having trouble keeping a consistant COL so am thinking to try seat and crimp together and see if this helps.


Crimping in the same step can have an effect on variable cartridge over all length. More so with roll crimps than with taper crimps.

I would suggest buying a separate crimp die or pop the carbide ring out o your FCD and crimp in a separate step.

Look for other issues with length variability although some is normal.

mingansr
April 2, 2012, 04:50 PM
i agree wiyh NeuseRvrRat. i'm about to load some 40's with my brand new (219.95 at fsreloading.com) Lee Loadmaster. yes, it's got some funky gimmicky ways of indexing and auto primer feed, etc., but i love it so far. setting the dies and primer depth today and will load 12 rounds to fill one mag in my XD, go out to the range, put the 12 thru and check for flattened primers. loading 5.8 gr. of Viht..... 3N37 powder with my 180 gr Prec. Delta jacketed bullets.

lotta guys bad mouth Lee vs RCBS, etc., but every bullet i shoot comes out of my dwindling IRA, so thank God for Lee and reasonable priced equipment. i'll take er slow and i'm sure i'll be fine.

FCD was like 12-15 extra, cuz the press came with the 3-die set installed. hell, i just can't beat the price. Long Live Lee!

bds
April 3, 2012, 10:14 AM
For all practical purposes the sizing ring in the FCD is the same diameter as the chamber.
I thought the carbide sizer ring in the FCD was .001"-.002" below SAAMI specs? (see email from Lee Precision below)

I am a Lee Precision fan and don't see any issues using semi-auto pistol FCD for jacketed diameter bullets FCD was meant for.


But for larger sized plated/lead bullets, I do not use FCD as post-sizing of the bullets may reduce neck tension (when some mixed range brass with varying case wall thickness spring back away from resized bullet) and lead to bullet setback during chambering when the bullet nose bumps the feed ramp. The QC check I now use for neck tension is measuring OAL before/after feeding/chambering a finished round from the magazine by releasing the slide. If you have significant reduction in OAL, your neck tension is not sufficient.

If you experience leading with rounds finished with FCD, especially if your barrel is oversized, not using the FCD is the first recommendation I would make as you need .001" larger bullet than groove diameter of the barrel for proper bullet-to-barrel fit. Post-sizing of lead bullet to jacketed bullet diameter will definitely reduce bullet-to-barrel fit which increases gas cutting, bullet base erosion, leading, etc.

If you want to seat/taper crimp semi-auto cases in separate steps with larger diameter lead bullets, you can either remove the carbide sizer ring or have Lee Precision enlarge the carbide sizer ring.

Here are some comments about semi-auto FCD use with lead bullets from Lee Precision:
From: "John Lee" <info@leeprecision.com>
Subject: Re: Factory Crimp Die for lead semi-auto calibers
To: "XXX" <XXX@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:26 AM

... the sizer ring is .001 to .002 smaller than a SAAMI maximum cartridge. This produces a finished cartridge that will not exceed Factory Maximum, a dimension necessary to fit in any standard chamber gun. Many users can use larger cast bullets that swell the case in excess of factory maximum and will work perfectly in one or more of their guns. That same crowd frequently will use a taper crimp die to assure "reliable feeding". The taper crimp die nicely squeezes the brass in turn reducing the bullet shank diameter. Had they used the correct diameter bullet they would not have needed a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

For any given brass thickness there is a limit on how large your bullet can be and not swell the brass over the SAAMI limit. If you are using selected brass of uniform wall thickness one can successfully use larger cast bullets without fear of producing ammo that will not chamber properly in any gun. If you are using mixed range brass stick with the bullet diameter that the cartridge was originally designed for and you won't need a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die ...

Sincerely,

John Lee, President

RustyFN
April 3, 2012, 06:23 PM
You must not shoot lead bullets. If you did, you probably wouldn't make that statement.

But, they do crimp nicely. Of course, the regular seating die crimps nicely too.

Why what's wrong with using the FCD with lead bullets?

Walkalong
April 3, 2012, 09:26 PM
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/Walkalong/HammerHead.gif

:D

Sport45
April 4, 2012, 04:38 AM
If you use the FCD with lead bullets your children will be born nekkid. :)

Walkalong
April 4, 2012, 08:24 AM
Yep, every time.

ranger335v
April 4, 2012, 12:00 PM
Lee: "If you are using mixed range brass stick with the bullet diameter that the cartridge was originally designed for and you won't need a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die ..."

And that's the core of it; those who don't need Lee's FCD with a post-sizing ring or aren't concerned with 100% reliable chambering don't need it and no one has ever suggested otherwise. But bullet diameters and chambers vary, ditto case wall thickness varies and if they add the wrong way chambering may be impossible, which may occur at the worst possible time; it has little or nothing to do with the loaders methods, it just happens and the FCD prevents it.

Thus, web gurus who don't need or want the benefits of the FCD stoutly proclaiming it useless for everyone else are .... well, wrong.

RustyFN
April 4, 2012, 07:29 PM
If you use the FCD with lead bullets your children will be born nekkid.

Now you tell me. :D

MedicManDan
April 5, 2012, 10:00 PM
For what it's worth, this is my first post. I have made a whopping 10 rounds in my new Lee classic turret with the four die setup for .40 S&W. Compared to factory ammunition there was seemingly no difference between the two (physically). Following the instructions (to the "T") they fed and fired flawlessly. I don't know if it truly made a difference using the FCD but from what I have read, that is to say a lot and trying to avoid propaganda, I am very pleased with the results and look forward to this new found "hobby". Oh and by hobby I mean pathological addiction that seems to simmer in the back my brain 24/7, oh the possibilities!

RustyFN
April 5, 2012, 10:36 PM
Welcome MMD.

3006mv
April 6, 2012, 02:20 AM
in a revolver w/ moon clips vs. .45 AR (auto rim) it is the same die for either; so which one is it taper or roll? Roll crimp for both the acp brass that you intend to use in a revolver with moon clips and also the AR brass. So shouldn't there be different FCD for each then?

unknwn; what are those "special " dies for? do they put a rifle squash crimp on it? why would they make those for the pistol cartridges? for lever action mag tubes? Please explain.

MedicManDan
April 6, 2012, 10:16 AM
Thanks Rusty.

jcwit
April 6, 2012, 10:39 AM
I also Welcome you to THR, bunch of great folks here and a wealth of knowledge to be learned by everyone. Enjoy!

Best
jcwit

Lost Sheep
April 22, 2012, 03:59 AM
worth reading

http://www.epinions.com/review/Redding_9mm_Luger_Taper_Crimp_Die_epi/content_483364212356?sb=1

or if the link does not work, paste this into your browser

epinions.com/review/Redding_9mm_Luger_Taper_Crimp_Die_epi/content_483364212356?sb=1

Lost Sheep

mingansr
April 22, 2012, 05:28 AM
Lee: "If you are using mixed range brass stick with the bullet diameter that the cartridge was originally designed for and you won't need a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die ..."

And that's the core of it; those who don't need Lee's FCD with a post-sizing ring or aren't concerned with 100% reliable chambering don't need it and no one has ever suggested otherwise. But bullet diameters and chambers vary, ditto case wall thickness varies and if they add the wrong way chambering may be impossible, which may occur at the worst possible time; it has little or nothing to do with the loaders methods, it just happens and the FCD prevents it.

Thus, web gurus who don't need or want the benefits of the FCD stoutly proclaiming it useless for everyone else are .... well, wrong.

I agree. I don't think it is a marketing ploy by Lee true selves guys

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

mingansr
April 22, 2012, 05:33 AM
I agree. I don't think it is a marketing ploy by Lee true selves guys

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

That's what I get for Google voicing. Should read "by Lee to sell dies" BUT I have a question. How do you know IF the FC crimp is sufficient? Thanks sage colleagues

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

Lost Sheep
April 22, 2012, 10:52 PM
(edited for brevity) I have a question. How do you know IF the FC crimp is sufficient? Thanks sage colleagues
I believe this to be true. If anyone knows different, please LET ME KNOW. I have been operating on these beliefs for many years.

Same as with regular crimp dies. There are two tests:

1 If your bullets stay where you seated them through all the normal handling, jostling, recoil, etc. you crimp is either sufficient or too much. This is usually easy enough to determine.

2 If, during firing, the retention of the bullet while your powder burns allows buildup of pressure to your powder's proper operating levels, your crimp is adequate. This is more difficult to determine.

Lost Sheep

If you enjoyed reading about "Lee Factory Crimp Die?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!