FN Herstal 20+1


PDA






bluethunder1962
March 29, 2012, 06:14 PM
anybody know anything bout this gun?
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_245/products_id/53891/FN+Herstal+20+%2B+1+Round+5.7x28MM+wOlive+Drab+Green+Finish
Thanks.

If you enjoyed reading about "FN Herstal 20+1" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
speedway
March 29, 2012, 06:33 PM
Glorified 22magnum auto-loader. Expensive, and ammo is expensive also.

dogtown tom
March 29, 2012, 06:36 PM
speedway Glorified 22magnum auto-loader. Expensive, and ammo is expensive also.
Do a search here on THR for FN "Five Seven".....lotsa threads.

HOOfan_1
March 29, 2012, 06:38 PM
It is called the Five-seveN

T.huynh
March 29, 2012, 06:38 PM
Glorified 22magnum auto-loader. Expensive, and ammo is expensive also.

+1. Ammo is about 50 cents a round.

I'd rather get a Kel-tec PMR.

spazzymcgee
March 29, 2012, 06:40 PM
I found the model that I fired to be extremely akward and unwieldly. Other than that problem, it's ugly, has expensive ammo, and unimpressive ballistics. Get a Kel-tec PMR 30 if you need that much capacity.

bluethunder1962
March 29, 2012, 07:07 PM
Thanks. SOunds like I need to save my money. I will look into the kel tec. I just liked the high mag count.

Michael R.
March 29, 2012, 07:10 PM
Ok. For those of you who say that it is a glorified 22 magnum, it is not. The bullets are pushing 2000 fps from a pistol barrel while the 22 magnum only reaches 1300 fps. The performance of the fn 5.7 round is simply explosive. Look up some threads and you will know what I mean

bluethunder1962
March 29, 2012, 07:10 PM
I like that kel tec. Now if I can find one.

Tango57
March 29, 2012, 09:05 PM
I prefer to think of mine as an m-16 short more than a 22 magnum, thank you very much! :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk when i should have been doing something useful

LightningMan
March 29, 2012, 09:55 PM
Oh! Noooo.....here we go again, anytime someone brings up the 5.7 it gets a little heated in here. Get the popcorn ready.

Orion8472
March 29, 2012, 10:43 PM
Well, LightningMan, it is because there is a lot of misinformation surrounding this weapon and the round it shoots. It is hardly "a glorified .22 magnum". Pardon if I offend anyone, . . . but that is ignorance of this round.

It is an effective round. It does not assume itself to be as powerful as 45acp, 10mm, or some of the big rounds, but who cares!! Get a 45acp if you want a big bullet, but do some hard core research on the 5.7x28 before misrepresenting it. :banghead:

There needs to be a Smilies of a face stepping off a soap box.

gearhead
March 29, 2012, 11:29 PM
You can also increase the 5.7 to a 30+1 rounder with a relatively short (a little more than 1") mag extension.

el Godfather
March 31, 2012, 07:29 AM
I have this pistol. This is my third fiveseven. Black, Tan and now Green.

Odd and large, but light.

It will take some time for this pistol to make place for itself in the market.

wow6599
March 31, 2012, 12:12 PM
It will take some time for this pistol to make place for itself in the market.

It's been available to the public since 2004........how much more time do you think it needs?

MachIVshooter
March 31, 2012, 12:21 PM
The bullets are pushing 2000 fps from a pistol barrel while the 22 magnum only reaches 1300 fps. The performance of the fn 5.7 round is simply explosive. Look up some threads and you will know what I mean

They're a bit closer than that. the 27.5 gr. SS195 load gets a touch over 2K from the pistol, but then, actual MV from the PMR 30 with 30 gr. loads averages over 1,500 FPS (1,560 average with CCI "TNT"). 40 grainers are closer to 1,300, but then, the 40 gr. SS197 load only gets 1,750 from the Five-seveN.

EA does do hotter stuff for 5.7mm, but it's also over $1/shot.

In summary, no, the 5.7x28 is not just a glorified .22 magnum. But it is still a pipsqeak round, with even the hot EA stuff barely mustering the energy of a standard pressure 9x19mm load. Both the Five-seveN and PMR-30 are pretty much range toys/small game pistols. The big difference is cost: $350 for the PMR and $10/box average ammo cost versus $1,000 for the Five-seveN and average ammo cost of ~$25/box.

Prince Yamato
March 31, 2012, 12:31 PM
It's a pretty impressive gun. You can also run it with a suppressor- something the kel tec cannot do.

jackpinesavages
March 31, 2012, 12:40 PM
It is a sleeper pistol, for the economically impressive.

I unfortunately "discovered" it when they were still around $700-in the next 3 months of my slowly investigating the prices went to 900, and as you see now are at almost 1100.

100 rds can be had for about $80 from good wholesale sellers. It shares that ammo. with the PS 90 platform rifles. Not a plinker like the PMR30, but as already mentioned try and FIND a PMR30, and THEN get it to run right!

http://www.svri.org/minors.pdf

http://amusinghistorymusings.blogspo...e-croatia.html

http://www.ask500people.com/question...comment--27034

http://www.spectrezine.org/content/c...assing-through

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Croatia.htm

Orion8472
March 31, 2012, 01:22 PM
Mach, . . . the "pipsqueak" round has still [unfortunately] killed a lot of people. I don't have the documentation at the moment [I can get it, though], but there is evidence showing its effectiveness. From what I have come to understand, it is used a lot in Mexico by the drug cartels, leaving many dead.

Again, it doesn't pretend to be a large round bullet, but that matters little when it is still effective.

.22mag I have little knowledge about, so I don't have any idea whether or not it is "just a range toy". True, the Kel-Tec is cheaper, . . . but looks it.

timber crasher
March 31, 2012, 01:31 PM
Sent grandpa my super blackhawk as a present,because my zeal for handgun hunting is past.I replaced it with the fiveseven for a utility/carry gun.The accuracy and reliability (yep) rivals my old revolver,though very different calibers.This is an amazing handgun.The "glorified .22 guys" don't have much experience with this caliber I'm afraid.This is the most unique and exciting handgun I've ever shot,but,to each their own. As for gun/ammo cost,if you can't afford fuel for a Corvette,then drive a Toyota!

garyh9900
March 31, 2012, 01:37 PM
The 5.7 round is like most others, it has it's place where it is useful. I myself don't like the round for any of my uses. I had a P90 for 6 months and that was about 5 months and 3 weeks too long, I went back to the 5.56 the first chance I got. But I don't know, it might be more useful in a pistol, if loaded with appropriate ammo it can penetrate armor.

jad0110
March 31, 2012, 01:46 PM
Quote:
It will take some time for this pistol to make place for itself in the market.
It's been available to the public since 2004........how much more time do you think it needs?

This is the most unique and exciting handgun I've ever shot,but,to each their own. As for gun/ammo cost,if you can't afford fuel for a Corvette,then drive a Toyota!

I suspect that's why the 5.7 hasn't caught on to any significant degree. I think I could count the Five-seveNs I've seen in person on one hand. They just don't sell at all in my area, and I suspect ammo cost is the biggest reason (along with availability). You either have to have a lot of extra disposable income to feed it (the Corvette vs Toyota is a good example, especially if you consider tire costs) or you have to be a reloader. And that further limits it's appeal because, well most of us find crawling on our hands and knees to scrounge puked brass to be a real pain. At least pricey revolver cartridges politely stay in the gun :D.

So if you can afford it, or if you like crawling in the dirt looking for spent cases, more power to you! :)

JHenry
March 31, 2012, 01:59 PM
alot of different opinons, personally i think theyre great but expensive. If they were closer to the $600-$700 range theyd be alot more popular but for a grand they dont have neough advantages to out weigh other options in traditiional calibers.

DoomGoober
March 31, 2012, 02:48 PM
Cost aside, these things are a blast to shoot. They shoot like a .22 and other than their bright muzzle blast, you can get them back on target for a follow up mighty quick. They have a huge magazine size but they don't weigh too much loaded. Sure, the controls are a little clicky (no other way to describe it) and it feels a little off for my hands but man, you can spray lead. Unfortunately, said lead is VERY expensive.

BTW, the P90, which shares the caliber, is even MORE fun to shoot. 50 round magazine, almost no felt recoil. You can fire mighty fast, mighty accurately with almost no practice (well, once you figure out how to get your thumb through the unusual grip.)

I probably wouldn't buy either of these guns, but if you get a chance to shoot them, you're in for a treat (assuming someone else is paying for the ammo.)

garyh9900
March 31, 2012, 03:01 PM
Cost aside, these things are a blast to shoot. They shoot like a .22 and other than their bright muzzle blast, you can get them back on target for a follow up mighty quick. They have a huge magazine size but they don't weigh too much loaded. Sure, the controls are a little clicky (no other way to describe it) and it feels a little off for my hands but man, you can spray lead. Unfortunately, said lead is VERY expensive.

BTW, the P90, which shares the caliber, is even MORE fun to shoot. 50 round magazine, almost no felt recoil. You can fire mighty fast, mighty accurately with almost no practice (well, once you figure out how to get your thumb through the unusual grip.)

I probably wouldn't buy either of these guns, but if you get a chance to shoot them, you're in for a treat (assuming someone else is paying for the ammo.)
The P90 was indeed very fun to shoot.

Prince Yamato
March 31, 2012, 05:21 PM
You can find ammo for $20-25 a box if you look around.

ClickClickD'oh
April 1, 2012, 12:11 AM
I like how at the same time the FN Five-SeveN can both be a super powered hand cannon capable of shooting through entire school buses of children and is nothing more than a glorified 22 that is too underpowered for serious use. It's not the be all end all of handguns, but it's certainly not a fluffed up .22. But hey, there's people on this forum that still say the 5.56 is a fluffed up .22. I trust it to do it's job as well as I trust my 9s and .45s. It's a handgun. Placement is the most important factor.


As for ammunition, I get SS197SR for about $22, which comes out to about $0.44 per round. That sounds high, until you consider that there is no one making the equivelant of Winchester White Box or American Eagle in 5.7. The only ammunition available for it is premium ammunition. To get a true perspective on the cost of 5.7 ammunition, it should be compared to other premium ammunition offered by Hornady (since the SS197SR is a Hornady bullet with FN stamped on the box)

For example:
Hornady Critical Defense 45 ACP 185 Grain: $20.49/20: $1.02 each
Hornady TAP 45 ACP +P 230 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point: $15.99/20: $0.79 each
Hornady Custom 45 ACP +P 230 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow Point: $16.49/20: $0.82 each

Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger 115 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding: $16.99/25: $0.67 each
Hornady TAP 9mm Luger 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point: $18.99/25: $0.76 each
Hornady Custom 9mm Luger 124 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow Point: $18.29/25: $0.73 each

So really, as long as you realize that you are shooting premium ammunition, it tends to come out cheaper than comparable traditional handgun calibers.

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 12:32 AM
Mach, . . . the "pipsqueak" round has still [unfortunately] killed a lot of people. I don't have the documentation at the moment [I can get it, though], but there is evidence showing its effectiveness. From what I have come to understand, it is used a lot in Mexico by the drug cartels, leaving many dead.

The same can be said of .22 LR and a host of other anemic cartridges.

.22mag I have little knowledge about, so I don't have any idea whether or not it is "just a range toy".

That is it's primary purpose. It could be pushed into service as a defensive gun, and .22 WMR actually produces similar ballistic wounds to the 5.7mm. That said, I don't consider either to be adequate.

try and FIND a PMR30, and THEN get it to run right!

They're still scarce, but they do work fine. They can be a little ammo sensitive, which is no surprise, given that .22 WMR is made by numerous manufacturers with all kinds of different powders. Mine is reliable with all of them, but not accurate with CCI 40 gr. loads (which KT acknowledges). I've had it for about 9 months, and thoroughly enjoy it. My sister just got hers a month ago, and it also runs flawlessly. The biggest problem with reliability comes from improper loading; There's an art to it, and it's real easy to cause a failure-inducing condition if you don't pay attention while stuffing those 30 cartridges into the magazine. They're rimmed, and as such, can rimlock. It's also fairly easy to deform the thin rimfire cases during loading.

Orion8472
April 1, 2012, 10:21 AM
Mach, it is true that people have also been killed by .22lr rounds. However, I think it is an underestimation of the 5.7x28 to [then] assume it to be "an anemic round". Do you find the round to be ineffective? If so, how are people losing their life to it? If you don't find it ineffective, then why post as if it is? I'm just trying to figure out your bottom line is on this round.

I'm not a "5.7x28 only" guy. I have other calibers as well. But I find it a bit odd when I hear two [nearly] polar opposites from people on forums about this cartridge. I would be interested in seeing you post over at fnforums.net for the purpose of defending your comments there. I realize that you may feel "ganged up on" there, but if your information is valid, it should be able to stand on its own. Truth takes no sides.

Michael R.
April 1, 2012, 10:32 AM
Here's a good post on the effectiveness of the 5.7 round.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7770708&postcount=111

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 11:54 AM
I'm just trying to figure out your bottom line is on this round.

That it is neat, but has very limited application, especially with civilian ammo.

Any firearm can be lethal, and if I shot someone with the 5.7x28, I would expect them to die. But I would expect the same of anything from rimfire to .50 BMG.

But a defensive firearm has a different purpose. It is meant to stop the threat; Whether they survive or not is irrelevant. For this, there are simply better choices. With the hottest loads, the 5.7 is just barely mustering enough velocity at the muzzle to start producing a permanent crush cavity larger than the bullet, and, as witnessed with 5.56mm, when these small projectiles fall much below 3,000, they're terminal effectiveness drops sharply. Basically, with the 5.7 from the handgun, you're still dependent on handgun bullet wounding mechanisms, and you're expecting them from a very small bullet.

The purpose of the 5.7x28mm was not creating some new, highly lethal round. It was to give rear echelon troops a PDW and companion pistol that, with the original ammo, could poke a hole in PASGT body armor at relatively close range, something the 9mm pistols and SMG's they had been using weren't very good at. The ideology is that any hole is better than no hole, and where armor is concerned, the 5.7 does this better than handgun rounds. Couple that with the high ROF and controllability of the P90, and you have a pretty effective gun withing it's design parameters.

However, our own LEAs in the US that tried it ended up switching back to the M4. That should say something.

As for civilians, there are two reasons it is less purposeful for us. One, we can't have the AP stuff and two, the extreme majority of BG's a civilian will encounter are not armor clad. Let's put it this way; Is your defensive shotgun loaded with flechette rounds or buckshot/slug?

It's a neat round and the Five-seveN is a neat gun. But they have very limited use and are expensive. If you can afford it and want to, more power to ya. They're certainly fun. But I have grown very tired of the arguments for it as a defensive round. Simply put, at best and under ideal circumstances, it's about as effective as a 9mm for defense. While that in it's own right isn't terrible, the fact that the gun and ammo cost 2.5 times as much leave it with little merit for said purpose. The capacity argument is also pretty much moot, with so many 9mm's having 17-19 round flush fitting magazines.

Orion8472
April 1, 2012, 12:12 PM
Okay, Mach. I appreciate your honest answer. Thank you!

For a defensive carry pistol, I'm going with a 9mm. I have considered the idea of moving to a .45acp at some point [perhaps a 1911, or if FNH comes out with an FNS-45]. My Five Seven is quite fun to shoot and I like the minimal recoil for quick followups. Mine is a bit more unique than others. With a bit of custom work, the sights [night sights] are very low profile and set up for the SS197SR. Very accurate, too. But ammo prices have gone up these past few years and I really wish someone would come out with basic practice rounds in the $15 range. Wishful thinking, perhaps.

ClickClickD'oh
April 1, 2012, 12:18 PM
...But they have very limited use and are expensive.

I keep hearing this, and I'm calling BS on it. The gun is $900 - $1100 out the door, which puts it pretty soundly in the middle of handgun prices... and at the very low end of 1911 prices.


However, our own LEAs in the US that tried it ended up switching back to the M4. That should say something.

Yes, it says that the P90 and the M4 are not meant to fill the same role and people who tried to shoehorn the P90 into the role the M4 plays found that out afterwards instead of thinking the process through before shelling out cash.


Simply put, at best and under ideal circumstances, it's about as effective as a 9mm for defense.

So, what you are actually saying without realizing it is that it's exactly as effective as one of the most trusted self defense rounds in the world?

While that in it's own right isn't terrible, the fact that the gun and ammo cost 2.5 times as much l

See previous posts. That's been refuted already. Load up a Kimber with some Federal Hydra-Shoks and you'll have chunked out a larger pile of cash than for a Five-SeveN... but you won't see anyone around here saying how you have to be a rich man to run that gun. It's all a preconceived notion perpetuated by people too lazy to actually look into the fatcs.

People should notice that when these threads occur, the users of the 5.7x28 round present what the bullet does against game animals, ballistic gelatin and other repeatable tests. The opponents of the 5.7 generally tell us how the bullet should perform based on math and theory. Oddly enough, before I bought my own 5.7x28 firearms, I listened to the side with field experience. I haven't found them to be wrong yet.

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 12:31 PM
I keep hearing this, and I'm calling BS on it. The gun is $900 - $1100 out the door, which puts it pretty soundly in the middle of handgun prices... and at the very low end of 1911 prices.

Which makes it 2.5 times as expensive as an entire range of service 9mms from many manufacturers. $900-$1,100 is certainly not middle of the road for most people; $400-$600 is, and that's where the Glocks, M&P's, XD's and so many others land.

So, what you are actually saying without realizing it is that it's exactly as effective as one of the most trusted self defense rounds in the world?

Without realizing? How dare you assume I don't know what I write. I said at best, it is on par with what many consider a minimum. And that's using the high dollar botique ammo.

In contrast, what you're conceding is that the Five-seveN offers no real advantage over something like a $300 Sigma loaded with white-and-green box Remington HP's that cost $22/100 at wally world.

Load up a Kimber with some Federal Hydra-Shoks and you'll have chunked out a larger pile of cash than for a Five-SeveN

Thing is, there are lots of gun and ammo choices in service calibers that are not so expensive. There are NO choices for the 5.7x28 that are less than the Five-seveN pistol and $0.50/round FN ammo.

If you want to and feel comfortable carrying it, by all means, do so to your heart's content. But don't try to convince me that it'll protect better than, say, my Glock 20. And yes, I'm excluding the guns I usually carry for CCW because they are compacts, and the Five-seveN is certainly not. Of course I'd rather have 21 rounds of 5.7x28 than 7 rounds of .380 ACP. But the 10.1 ounce fully loaded P3AT drops into my back pocket and goes unnoticed; A Five-seveN does not.

I don't hate the gun or the round. Quite the contrary; I like oddball stuff. I'm just not diluded about what it is and isn't, and am not willing to spend that much on it. If the gun were $600 and the ammo on par with 5.56mm, I'd own one. But they're not.

wow6599
April 1, 2012, 12:34 PM
The gun is $900 - $1100 out the door, which puts it pretty soundly in the middle of handgun prices...
No. Custom jobs and high-end 1911's aside, start showing me $1500 - $1600 pistols. $1000 is no where close to being the middle of the road for a pistol.

More like $500 for an average price, IMHO.

ClickClickD'oh
April 1, 2012, 04:25 PM
Which makes it 2.5 times as expensive as an entire range of service 9mms from many manufacturers.

Well, if we limit the field of handguns to only synthetic framed service pistols, yes it is expensive. But, limiting the field to only synthetic framed service pistols isn't a fair judge of how much a particular handgun actually costs in relation to the whole field of handguns.

$900-$1,100 is certainly not middle of the road for most people; $400-$600 is, and that's where the Glocks, M&P's, XD's and so many others land.

Middle of the road isn't defined by individual perspective. It's defined by the entire product category. Surely, for a person that only shops for Hi-Points the Five-SeveN is a stupidly priced handgun. For people that are shopping for a Kimber or Charles Daley pistol, it's quite cheap. It's right in the same price range as a BFR or bottom level STI.

Without realizing? How dare you assume I don't know what I write.

Perhaps then you shouldn't try to convince someone how poor performing something is by equating it to the worlds most popular item in that category. Oh yes, we know you tried to qualify it with a completely unsubstantiated "at best"...

In contrast, what you're conceding is that the Five-seveN offers no real advantage over something like a $300 Sigma loaded with white-and-green box Remington HP's that cost $22/100 at wally world.

I haven't conceded anything. You arbitrarily declared the FN 5.7 to be at the level of a 9mm. I have said nothing in that regard.

If you want to go that route though, no the FN Five-SeveN isn't really any better than any other handgun in any of the major calibers. That's because it's still a handgun. Handguns all suck as defensive tools. The only guaranteed way to stop someone with a handgun is placement. Caliber wars are just a silly way to waste time on the internet. If you'll read back up the thread I've already said that.

Thing is, there are lots of gun and ammo choices in service calibers that are not so expensive.
And there are lots of gun and ammo choices in service calibers that are a lot more expensive? What's the point again?

There are NO choices for the 5.7x28 that are less than the Five-seveN pistol and $0.50/round FN ammo.

So, what... the knock against the 5.7 is that Hi-Point doesn't make a cheap version?

If you want to and feel comfortable carrying it, by all means, do so to your heart's content. But don't try to convince me that it'll protect better than, say, my Glock 20.

Where has anyone in this thread even remotely implied that you should give up any other firearm to use a FN 5.7? That's just a strawman. My daily carry is either a CZ-75B or Ruger LCP. I absolutely trust my FN, but given the current political climate regarding the weapon, I don't consider it to be a smart carry given the likely perceptions if I ever had to use it.

Certaindeaf
April 1, 2012, 04:37 PM
With the AP rounds, I can see that this setup has some real value. However, that is moot.

What's that 9mm Russian pistol? Uses +p++ AP.. well, kinda the same thing. Moot.

Jaymo
April 1, 2012, 06:38 PM
7.62 Tokarev penetrates PASGT helmets and level 3A body armor. It's also a lot cheaper than 5.7. It can also be loaded with sabots and .223 bullets for higher than 5.7 fanboy velocities.
I'd like to have the 5.7 carbine but it's useless to me. Not powerful enough to use for deer hunting and not legal for small game in my state.
Nowhere near enough power for me to trust my life to it.
Not even a .22 Hornet Lite.

9mm-most trusted SD round? Get real.
9mm is easy for women and conscripts to shoot well with little training.
It's never been a barn burner of a defense cartridge.
22 mag +p (5.7) for self defense in a pistol? No thanks.
Fool yourselves as much as you want, but stabbing little icepick holes in bad guys doesn't stop their aggressive actions.
Same reason the SS109 sucks *** as a combat round. It punches tiny little icepick holes in the bad guys without doing serious damage.

At least with a .22 mag, the ammo is cheaper, the gun is cheaper, and I already know not to trust my life to it.

If the 5.7 is such a great round, why aren't there scads of other gunmakers chambering it?

It's great for rear echelon troops who need a modicum of defense.
It just doesn't do anything that can't be done much better by rounds already in existence.
It's cool and fun, but it's udders on a bull for the vast majority of shooters.

PabloJ
April 1, 2012, 07:31 PM
Glorified 22magnum auto-loader. Expensive, and ammo is expensive also.
It is higher performance round then .22WRM and about on par with my .22 centerfire magnum S&W revolver.

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 08:18 PM
Well, if we limit the field of handguns to only synthetic framed service pistols, yes it is expensive.

Well, since the Five-seveN is exactly that, I think it's a pretty fair comparison.

But, limiting the field to only synthetic framed service pistols isn't a fair judge of how much a particular handgun actually costs in relation to the whole field of handguns.

The overwhelming majority of polymer, alloy and steel framed service caliber, combat type handguns fall into the same price category. Virtually every handgun in excess of the Five-seveN's price point is a special-purpose or semi custom. Hence, it is at the very high end of production pistols, especially polymer framed ones. Even most HK's don't cost that much, and they're pretty much universally considered to be rather spendy.

Middle of the road isn't defined by individual perspective. It's defined by the entire product category.

I agree, and that is what makes the $400-$600 range average. There are quite a few cheaper and a good number more expensive, but the average is still in the middle. Next time you're in a typical gunshop (not one that caters to gun snobs) with a decent selection (50+), add up all the prices and divide by the number of pistols. Odds are you'll fall right in that $400-$600 range.

Perhaps then you shouldn't try to convince someone how poor performing something is by equating it to the worlds most popular item in that category.

We're not even going to get into the debate of the 9mm's effectiveness. It's been done ad nauseum here. But that does lead us to:

Oh yes, we know you tried to qualify it with a completely unsubstantiated "at best"...

It's not unsubstantiated. I've spent quite a lot of time on the subject, looking at lab tests and real world results. The point remains that it takes expensive custom 5.7mm ammunition to equal the performance of a much less expensive, much more common round that is often questioned itself WRT capability.

If you want to go that route though, no the FN Five-SeveN isn't really any better than any other handgun in any of the major calibers. That's because it's still a handgun. Handguns all suck as defensive tools.

At least we can agree on something. But to that end, why choose something any more marginal than you have to? You think I'd carry a .380 or 9mm is my attire allows a .45 or 10mm? The prevailing wisdom (for good reason) is to use the most potent cartridge/platform you can handle/conceal.

And there are lots of gun and ammo choices in service calibers that are a lot more expensive? What's the point again?

The point is that there are choices. With the 5.7x28, there are not; It's $1k handgun or bust.

So, what... the knock against the 5.7 is that Hi-Point doesn't make a cheap version?

Did I say I wanted an ugly, clunky $150 5.7mm gun? I think not. But if anyone can explain to me why this handgun costs what it does, I'm all ears. I see no reason it should be over $500-$600, which is why I won't buy one. It simply is not worth more than that to me.

Where has anyone in this thread even remotely implied that you should give up any other firearm to use a FN 5.7? That's just a strawman

That really wasn't directed at you specifically, but moreover toward the faboys who have declared it the end-all, be-all handgun and cartridge. There's no shortage of them, and their diatribes grow tiresome.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 2, 2012, 10:23 AM
9mm-most trusted SD round? Get real.

You do realize that the US is the only country that really uses .45 ACP? 9mm is the most widely used and thus makes it the most trusted because of how many people actually trust it for defense.

The point is that there are choices. With the 5.7x28, there are not; It's $1k handgun or bust.

There are two other handguns chambered for the cartridge FYI.

MachIVshooter
April 2, 2012, 11:41 AM
There are two other handguns chambered for the cartridge FYI.

You must be referring to the vaporware Excel gun that is as large and heavy as a Desert Eagle with a 9 round mag. One place does claim to have them, and it is more reasonably priced, but this gun is not in the same class as the Five-seveN anyway. Excel makes a .22 WMR version of the same gun, but I wouldn't compare it with the PMR-30, since it weighs 4 times as much and carries 1/3 the number of cartridges.

Or the pistol version of their rifle, which is as large as and heavier than numerous 5.56mm pistols, and still $800.

Since these did make it to market finally, I'll stand corrected that there are a couple options, but maintain that they're a totally different class of firearms that defy much of the reasoning behind the argument for the Five-seveN; Light weight and high capacity.

That said, the Excel would make a fine field gun with it's 8.5" tube and picatinny rail that allows optics. If I ever see one in person, I might just grab it for use on close in praire rats from truck windows. We'll see how the accuracy is once some folks actually own them.

ClickClickD'oh
April 2, 2012, 01:59 PM
The overwhelming majority of polymer, alloy and steel framed service caliber, combat type handguns fall into the same price category. Virtually every handgun in excess of the Five-seveN's price point is a special-purpose or semi custom. Hence, it is at the very high end of production pistols, especially polymer framed ones. Even most HK's don't cost that much, and they're pretty much universally considered to be rather spendy.

I agree, and that is what makes the $400-$600 range average. There are quite a few cheaper and a good number more expensive, but the average is still in the middle. Next time you're in a typical gunshop (not one that caters to gun snobs) with a decent selection (50+), add up all the prices and divide by the number of pistols. Odds are you'll fall right in that $400-$600 range.

None of these statements do anything to counter the fact that the FN Five-SeveN is priced pretty much exactly in the middle of handgun pricing, my original claim. I does however shed quite a bit of light on your apparent mindset and view of other gun owners, as apparently those of us that spot for something a little higher priced than the Glock or M&P are all a bunch of gun snobs. I'd love to see what you call the guys who spot for $2.5K guns. I kind of also wonder what you call people who drop a grand on an AR...

Also, the available selection of firearms at any particular gun shop is not a good representative sample of the entire field. Heck, if we were to stick to the standard you set forth here, we could reasonably claim that based on a visit to the local Academy Sports, Sarsilmaz, Ruger and Taraus are significantly representative of the entire handgun market. That simply isn't true. No more true than trying to define the price range of the handgun market by excluding the top tier. It's a flat out false argument that you are making.

Furthermore, I said it was in the middle of the price range of the handgun market. You are attempting to average a localized sub-sample of the handgun market. Those two things are not similar.



The point remains that it takes expensive custom 5.7mm ammunition to equal the performance of a much less expensive, much more common round that is often questioned itself WRT capability.

Ah yes.. the "9mm is ineffective" debate. Always charming. The legions of people killed by the 9mm no doubt agree as to it being only marginally effective...

That really wasn't directed at you specifically, but moreover toward the faboys who have declared it the end-all, be-all handgun and cartridge. There's no shortage of them, and their diatribes grow tiresome.

And it's no less tiresome to hear the "5.7 couldn't stop a charging mouse" crowd when on the same page of the forum we can find people extolling the virtues of the .380 for self defense.

As I said way back up near the top of the thread: "I like how at the same time the FN Five-SeveN can both be a super powered hand cannon capable of shooting through entire school buses of children and is nothing more than a glorified 22 that is too underpowered for serious use. It's not the be all end all of handguns, but it's certainly not a fluffed up .22. But hey, there's people on this forum that still say the 5.56 is a fluffed up .22. I trust it to do it's job as well as I trust my 9s and .45s. It's a handgun. Placement is the most important factor."

MachIVshooter
April 2, 2012, 02:40 PM
None of these statements do anything to counter the fact that the FN Five-SeveN is priced pretty much exactly in the middle of handgun pricing,

:banghead:

Median between the very cheapest and the most expensive does not an average make when there are literally hundreds of examples.

I does however shed quite a bit of light on your apparent mindset and view of other gun owners, as apparently those of us that spot for something a little higher priced than the Glock or M&P are all a bunch of gun snobs.

Ahhh, putting the (expletive) in assumption. I have many guns that exceed the price of the Five-seveN. Difference is, these guns are manufactured and perform in a way that justifies the cost.

I'd love to see what you call the guys who spot for $2.5K guns.

You mean like my $3k AR-50?

I kind of also wonder what you call people who drop a grand on an AR...

Like my two Armalites?

You're also bordering on personal attacks with these last couple remarks; I'll remind you that such is prohibited on THR.

Also, the available selection of firearms at any particular gun shop is not a good representative sample of the entire field. Heck, if we were to stick to the standard you set forth here, we could reasonably claim that based on a visit to the local Academy Sports, Sarsilmaz, Ruger and Taraus are significantly representative of the entire handgun market. That simply isn't true. No more true than trying to define the price range of the handgun market by excluding the top tier. It's a flat out false argument that you are making.

Furthermore, I said it was in the middle of the price range of the handgun market. You are attempting to average a localized sub-sample of the handgun market. Those two things are not similar.

I didn't tell you to go to a particular gun shop. I just said find a typical one with a good selection. I know of shops that cater to cheap folks and carry lots of Hi Points and the like, I also know of shops that carry a lot of Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, etc. I wouldn't consider those "typical". The ones that carry a handful of cheapies and a few high end models on either side of large cases filled with Glocks, Sigs, S&W's and other big name production guns are what I'm referrring to, and such shops are not a sub set.

If you want to go on believing that $1,000 is an average handgun price, I'm sure you're local LGS will love you. But the extreme majority of folks simply do not agree, nor would a mathematical price average of every handgun on the US market, not even accounting for quantities of each sold (which is a factor).

Ah yes.. the "9mm is ineffective" debate. Always charming. The legions of people killed by the 9mm no doubt agree as to it being only marginally effective...

One more time, and this go-'round with emphasis: It's not about lethality; It's about stopping the threat.

And the point still remains that effectiveness of the 9mm aside, the 5.7 is 2-1/2 times as expensive.

And it's no less tiresome to hear the "5.7 couldn't stop a charging mouse" crowd when on the same page of the forum we can find people extolling the virtues of the .380 for self defense.

Exaggerating slightly for impact, are we not?

In point of fact, I said precisely the opposite of that:

Of course I'd rather have 21 rounds of 5.7x28 than 7 rounds of .380 ACP.

As I'm done with this debate, I'll simply highlight the points I've been making all along:

1) The Five-seveN pistol and 5.7x28mm cartridge are nifty.

2) The Five-seveN pistol and 5.7x28mm cartridge are expensive for what they are.

3) There are better, more economical choices for self defense than the The Five-seveN pistol and 5.7x28mm cartridge.

TG13
April 2, 2012, 02:58 PM
the only reason why i don't have a 5.7 is the cost..

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 2, 2012, 03:19 PM
I think it's time I address round performance. You say that you have to spend over a dollar per round to get ammo that is on par with 9mm. Why is that a problem? Do you plink with Corbon DPX or something or do you shoot the cheaper FMJ? That expensive ammo by Elite Ammunition is not meant for plinking but intended to be loaded in the gun and carried or in a nightstand drawer. I don't see people complaining about the prices of premium self defense ammo for 9mm - .45 ACP but suddenly when it's the 5.7 x 28's defensive loadings, it becomes too expensive. Why is that? Because it's small?

ClickClickD'oh
April 2, 2012, 04:16 PM
Median between the very cheapest and the most expensive does not an average make when there are literally hundreds of examples.

Well, since you are the one arguing mean instead of median, you are arguing solo. Take a moment to re-read the thread. I said "in the middle of". You interpreted that as, and started arguing about averages. I never said anything about average cost. You've created a whole argument out of thin air just to shoot it down. It's a classic strawman in every way. If you want to discuss what I actually said, that's fine, but you are trying to defeat an argument that I've never made nor can you reasonably refute that a gun that sells for $900-$1100 is squarely in the middle of the handgun market which has prices ranging from $100-$2,500.

You're also bordering on personal attacks with these last couple remarks; I'll remind you that such is prohibited on THR.

Lol. Coming from the guy who introduced "gun snobs" to the thread.. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

If you want to go on believing that $1,000 is an average handgun price, I'm sure you're local LGS will love you. But the extreme majority of folks simply do not agree, nor would a mathematical price average of every handgun on the US market, not even accounting for quantities of each sold (which is a factor).
Still arguing averages I see... Have fun arguing that with yourself.

And the point still remains that effectiveness of the 9mm aside, the 5.7 is 2-1/2 times as expensive.

Only if you carry American Eagle or other discount ammo in your 9mm. Everyone I know carries premium defense ammo in theirs. See previously in this thread where I compared premium self defense ammo prices for 9mm and .45 to 5.7 ammo and showed that the 5.7 is actually cheaper.


Exaggerating slightly for impact, are we not?

In point of fact, I said precisely the opposite of that:
That statement was no more directed at you than your previous one re:fanbois was directed at me.

mooner
April 2, 2012, 07:58 PM
A friend of mine has one. I haven't shot it yet. Interesting controls on it for sure. I think it would be fun to shoot, but probably not something I would spend my money on...

That is how you do it guys. :neener:

MachIVshooter
April 2, 2012, 08:50 PM
If you want to discuss what I actually said, that's fine, but you are trying to defeat an argument that I've never made nor can you reasonably refute that a gun that sells for $900-$1100 is squarely in the middle of the handgun market which has prices ranging from $100-$2,500.

If you want to split the difference between the very lowest and very highest, your mark is actually much higher. It's a pretty ridiculous way to look at it, regardless. I'm also not the only one who took what you said to mean that it was an average price, so perhaps be a little less ambiguous in the future.

That point is pretty much moot, though. If I said a half million dollar Lamborghini Murcielago was a mid-priced car, everyone would laugh their collective butts off. It is, if we consider a Kia Rio and a Bugatti Veyron. But to pretty much everyone, "mid priced" means somewhere in the middle of common stuff, like the Buick Regal coming in between a Honda Civic and a BMW 5-series. A middle-of-the-road car price is about $35k, not what lands squarely between the two extremes. Guns (or anything else) are no different. To your typical gunshop patron, a $100 handgun is cheap, and a $1k handgun is pretty spendy. A three or four thousand dollar handgun is very expensive to most, and they typically are bought by a select few who have that kind of disposable income.

Spend a little time behind the counter, and you'll get a better idea of what people generally consider "reasonable" or "affordable".

jon_in_wv
April 2, 2012, 08:59 PM
There are plenty of 9mms that carry 16-20 rounds. Personally, I would get one of those and about $500 bucks worth of ammo.

barnbwt
April 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
I swear, never are gun-folk so cheap as when the Five-$eveN is being considered...

FWIW, mine has never jammed, is extremely fun, is easy to clean, shoots straight, is simple to understand, and fits my hand great.

The only issue I've had with the pistol was the mag-release spring, which FNH made good on, and then some.

The ammo has never failed to fire. Something I can't say about any rimfire ammunition I've ever used. That alone make this round better than a "glorfied .22WMR" in my eyes.

This thread was kind of a slow starter, for a 5.7 job, but I guess we're in the thick of it now...

whatever.

TCB

Pete D.
April 2, 2012, 11:24 PM
I like mine. I also reload for it which allows for two things...better than factory performance and less than factory costs for ammo.
The comparison a few posts earlier to the 7.62 Tokarev is worth pursuing. The Tokarev will do much of what the 5.7 is designed to do (as will the Tokarev's ballistic cousins, the .30 Mauser and the .30 Luger) they are somewhat bulkier and have fewer bullet types available to the reloader. But they work just fine.
About the saboted 55 grain bullet and the Tokarev. Yes, I wonder,though, about its accuracy....I have had little luck with sabots used in such applications.
The 5.7, though, is capable of great accuracy at fairly long ranges.
Here are five shots at 100 yards.....even with the flier, it's a four inch group.....
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/lunapic-122441116248797.jpg

Yeah...a pocket rifle.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 2, 2012, 11:34 PM
There are plenty of 9mms that carry 16-20 rounds. Personally, I would get one of those and about $500 bucks worth of ammo.

Wouldn't be as accurate, light weight or as light recoiling though. Those are it's big selling points on the civilian market.

MachIVshooter
April 2, 2012, 11:46 PM
I swear, never are gun-folk so cheap as when the Five-$eveN is being considered...

Because no one seems able to quantify the reason for this pistol costing twice what other handguns of the same pedigree and manufacturing process do.

HK is another that will invoke what you speak of, and I happen to agree, having owned them (notice, past tense). Why does an HK45 cost over a grand when a Glock 21, M&P 45, XD-45, FNP 45, etc. all go in the $500-$600 range and do everything it will (sometimes more)?

And along those lines, can you honestly tell me that the Five-seveN is that much more expensive to make than the FNP line from the same manufacturer that do sell at normal polymer handgun prices? What is the extra $400 or so paying for, aside from exclusivety?

wrc
April 3, 2012, 12:00 AM
And along those lines, can you honestly tell me that the Five-seveN is that much more expensive to make than the FNP line from the same manufacturer that do sell at normal polymer handgun prices? What is the extra $400 or so paying for, aside from exclusivety?

That's a good point. I think it is in large part the image factor, and that there aren't a whole lot of large contracts making it more cost-effective to produce. I don't see markdown sales on the FiveseveN, not like the rest of the FN polymer line (FNS and FNX). Clearly, the FNX/FNS lines are meant to compete for existing SIG/HK/Glock/S&W customers, but they seem to have little traction, which may explain the almost bargain-basement prices.

The FiveseveN may just be like a Rolex. They could price them cheaper, but they don't have any problems selling what they make, so ...

MachIVshooter
April 3, 2012, 12:13 AM
They could price them cheaper, but they don't have any problems selling what they make, so ...

Yeah, the whole "better because it costs more" than "costs more because it's better" thing, I suspect.

I do think they'd move a lot of them at $600-ish. I'd buy it at that mark.

gearhead
April 3, 2012, 02:32 PM
The FNP/FNS lines are made in the USA. The 5.7 is Belgium-made only.

barnbwt
April 3, 2012, 10:37 PM
...no one seems able to quantify the reason for this pistol costing twice what other handguns of the same pedigree and manufacturing process do.


You're absolutely right, they are very expensive for what they're made from, but original designs cost a lot more than their materials, and FNH can't count on NATO to pay for the R&D this time.

However, I do not agree the Five-seveN is cut from the same cloth as most (any?) other polymer pistol. Its lock action, magazine design, and control layout are quite different from common industry design concepts for pistols (High-Power, 1911, Glock, etc.). If the pivoting cam blowback-delay device has been used elsewhere, I would be very interested to know.

I do think they'd move a lot of them at $600-ish. I'd buy it at that mark. Too true, but then, a lot of guns would move at 2/3 their current price. And if FNH priced their stuff like Kel-Tec, they couldn't make it fast enough to sell it at double the price (couldn't resist a jab at the KSG, RFB, Sub2000, PMR30, ...:D)

It is big departure from the FNX/FNP (I've not examined an FNS) lines that Herstal makes, and I think this is the reason for the bulk of its price tag. There is (or was) an entire group of ammunition and firearms design guys devoted to it and the P90, and FNH will attempt to pay that off so long as people keep buying. I believe we shouldn't chastise new designs for being costly, since competition will bring down prices on successful ideas anyway. I don't believe the Five-seveN is expensive because it is a failure, since it performs so well. I imagine FNH has restrictive licenses and patents that are preventing the Hi-Points and other developers of the world from entering the market, at least for the time being.

I only wish the gun and round could be freed from the stigma attached to them.
The Five-seveN and 5.7x28 have unjustly earned the ire of both worlds;
Ignorant people that can only percieve the potential for mis-use and lethality,
and disdain from better-informed gun-folk deafened by the cries of the former to ban a mere light pistol as a WMD.

The Five-seveN can stand on its own, if people will let it. No other pistol I know of can quite do what it accomplishes.

TCB

Off-topic; I think FNH would pull a coup by making a ridiculously low-profile single stack 5.7 "mouse" gun for the budget conscious. It would definitely have an edge over the .22WMR snubs/derringers/sub-miniature semis out there it would be competing with...

mcole
April 3, 2012, 10:47 PM
Well, i like and carry the 57. light, 20 rounds, very accurate. my difference is custom loaded cartridges. they run 2,300 to 2,350 fps at the muzzle with staked primers and 30 gr hollow point bullets designed to begin tumbling within 2" to 3" of penetration. they consistently produce a 4" wound channel.
shot into a 10lb, 14lb, and a 19lb ham (last with the bone in it). the little one was split into 2 parts. the middle one wasn't quite split into 2 parts (didn't hit it centered) but showed a 4" channel. the big one with the bone was interesting. i wanted to and did hit the bone pretty much centered. shattered the bone, blew bone fragments throughout the entire ham and the wound channel behind the bone was bigger than 4" and a hell of a mess.
the 57 was designed for "close" work and to expend and transfer its energy in very short distances after penetration. i don't use elite ammunition.
there is no relevant comparison to the .22 or .22wmr. mcole

bluethunder1962
April 3, 2012, 10:51 PM
I have always been a big cal person. My range has two 1/4 maybe thinner plates I shoot. I have shot them with everything from 9mm to 44 mag. None have put a dint in it. They have bowed them. They are all pistols but I shot them today with ar15. They went right through. My mind might be changing.

If you enjoyed reading about "FN Herstal 20+1" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!