Your speed/accuracy with different calibres


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Wapato
March 30, 2012, 11:31 AM
Still deciding on what handgun to get. In my experience with hand me down firearms or borrowed weapons I seem to be more accurate and faster for a given accuracy with a 1911 than an M9.

However that could just be me and my limited experience, or something to do with those specific firearms.

I'm curious, for whatever drills you guys do, how your accuracy and speed change when going between different calibres.

I suppose these days I should also ask about any differences going from low recoil ammo to +p+.

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xXxplosive
March 30, 2012, 11:37 AM
1911 has worked for me for many many years........IMO.....the best Combat platform still today. And although I have a few Gov't models....I opt to carry my Combat Commander 4.25" Bbl...

ku4hx
March 30, 2012, 11:41 AM
I'm best with a .22LR (one of three Rugers) and worst with .44 Magnum (Desert Eagle) but all it generally takes to get "as good as" with one compared to any other is a little "requal" work. Of course, the DE is in a class by itself and I consider it more of a field piece than an SD option.

bigfatdave
March 30, 2012, 01:09 PM
There's so much more to it than caliber

Chamber pressure
Bullet weight
Gun weight
Grip shape
Recoil mechanism
Bore Axis
Slide weight
Recoil spring strength
... ... and that's just what comes to mind in a few moments here, there is a LOT more to it


You can find a really light 1911 that will be snappier than the M9, but the grip shape of the M9 may be a poor fit to your hand, or you might have really low pressure .45acp loaded up for poofter target loads, or either could have an out-of-spec recoil spring, or any number of things.

coalman
March 30, 2012, 01:16 PM
9mm>45>40, and the larger the grip on the gun the better. I can generally run a stock Glock 17 faster with greater overall accuracy than a production .45acp 1911 using loads that make respective PFs.

GLOOB
March 30, 2012, 02:20 PM
If you wanna compare speed, I suggest you try using a shot timer. But honestly, I wouldn't get too caught up in split times. Just cuz you have 17 rds doesn't mean you have to shoot them all. Gunshots don't generally have an immediate effect unless you hit the CNS. A fraction of a second difference in split times isn't very often going to make a difference unless you're making headshots on multiple armed adversaries. Eventually, you're going to wake up from that fantasy. When the bullets start flying, most people start missing. I recall a story from a competitive revolver shooter turned cop. First time he was in a shootout, his partner thought he was shooting a machine gun. He never saw someone miss 6 times that quickly.

Look at what the cops use. 40SW seems to work ok, despite higher recoil.

David E
March 30, 2012, 02:41 PM
As mentioned, there are many variables that come into play, but the biggest one is technique.

Some work better, sometimes much better, than others.

9mmepiphany
March 30, 2012, 03:25 PM
It is hard to compare speed and accuracy between platforms and calibers until you have a consistent technique valid drill and a way to measure differences.

1. You need a shot timer
2. You have to confirm that your technique is optimized both speed and accuracy...learn correct technique
3. Pick a drill that with test the qualities you are looking for...the old standby is the Bill Drill and the current favorite is the FAST Drill

Just at a guess, I'd say that the Beretta either doesn't fit you as well or you're no using the correct technique to run it

tuj
April 1, 2012, 01:51 PM
If you want speed and you are playing a particular game, then 38 super is the apparent way to go. But that doesn't mean it would be the best in real life defense.

What is your goal?

wally
April 2, 2012, 10:22 AM
I recently dusted off my shot count timer and took it to the plate rack. From a low ready with a .22lr I did six plates in 2.5 seconds, with a 9mm I did it in 3.0 seconds.

From low ready to the first plate was running ~0.9 seconds -- this is where I obviously need work.

David E
April 2, 2012, 11:37 AM
If you want speed and you are playing a particular game, then 38 super is the apparent way to go.

.38 Super is popular in ONE division out of SIX

But that doesn't mean it would be the best in real life defense.


Seems to me a 125 grain JHP @ 1450 fps would be a very good defense load.

browningguy
April 2, 2012, 11:59 AM
Using actual measured split times I am generally 15% faster (Double taps at 7 yd. targets with single action triggers) with a 9mm than a .40. Most people will be, less recoil, less muzzle climb. I would think the single action trigger has more to do with this particular case than the caliber. Single action triggers are generally much lighter with shorter reset than double action triggers, this has a big effect with some shooters.

In general I would say if you are faster with a 1911 in .45 than with an M9 in 9mm you are doing something wrong with the 9mm. It takes a different technique to shoot the double action pistols fast compared to a single action. I can't shoot double action pistols at all well, mainly because I don't like them and hardly ever practice with them.

Wapato
April 2, 2012, 12:01 PM
What is your goal?

To select a good defensive handgun and load.

In some other thread here there was a side discussion with one person arguing you should go 9mm as more hits from that were vastly better than fewer from a 45 and then you had a person arguing they were just as fast with a 45 (which is the case in my limited experience).

So I was curious how this sort of thing works out with people who have spent a fair chunk of time on multiple weapons of different calibres/loads too see if there are significant differences in speed between.

I mean physically, greater recoil is greater recoil. But time and accuracy might be limited more by other things in practice.

David E
April 2, 2012, 05:39 PM
I may have been the one on the .45 side of that discussion.

What I find limits my shot-to-shot speed isn't so much the caliber, but the platform.

1SOW
April 2, 2012, 07:50 PM
IMO:
I suppose these days I should also ask about any differences going from low recoil ammo to +p+.
That's the driver (cartridge load) when ammo is the issue re speed.
Next is trigger and action for speed and accuracy.
Handgun weight and balance is a big issue for speed with heavy usually allowing faster follow-on shots/target acquisition.

Now a great shooter can do it all with most any good pistol, even a concealed carry Glock. :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

FMF Doc
April 2, 2012, 08:02 PM
Speed and accuracy both are more a product of shooter first and then gun, than they are caliber. The most accurate caliber in competition is the .22LR, so all things relative. A good trigger on a heavy steel 1911 shooting .45acp will probably be more accurate than a super lightweight subcompact 9mm. Don't put too much into caliber.
That being said, I have had some of my personal best results with a Glock 34 shooting 147gr +p Reming Golden Sabres.

MrDig
April 2, 2012, 11:01 PM
I fall on the opposite end of this I guess, I'm inherently more accurate with My BHP or Hi Power (FEG, Argentine, Arcus) pattern guns than with a .45 even the Springfield that I own. At home defense distances I put more in the center mass at a faster rate using a 9mm hi power.
The fact for me is that the Hi-Power comes to bear on target more easily and reacquires target more quickly, thus I am more confident in the gun and my ability with it.

Bovice
April 3, 2012, 02:31 AM
I normally shoot larger calibers and I don't think my splits are bad. When I drop down to 9mm I am lightning fast. However, I am more comfortable with something more powerful for social work, so the difference doesn't influence my choice.

I don't make downloaded ammo because that defeats the purpose of having the larger caliber. All of it is loaded to a power level associated with that caliber in a standard factory offering (no +P). There is a difference between full-house loads and purpose-made light loads, and you should be shooting something at the same power level as what you would carry.

David E
April 5, 2012, 01:35 AM
I normally shoot larger calibers and I don't think my splits are bad. When I drop down to 9mm I am lightning fast.

What kind of splits are we talking, specifically?

allaroundhunter
April 5, 2012, 02:06 AM
I tend to shoot 9mm's and .45's faster and more accurately than .40's.

Within the 9mm's I shoot my M&P more accurately and faster than my Glock.

I shoot a full-size 1911 just a tad slower than my 9mm's, but just as accurately.

WC145
April 5, 2012, 07:38 AM
I shoot 9mm and .45acp 1911s in IDPA. In general I'm a little bit faster with the 9mm - less recoil (obviously) and it has a magwell (the .45 doesn't) and that speeds up my reloads a little.

Zerodefect
April 5, 2012, 08:18 AM
.45 and 9mm feel good to me. .40 is snappy in my Glock 23. But I shoot it fairly well, I just don't enjoy it.

I try to pack as much power as I can before my performance degrades. I only use 9mm in mouse guns. For midsize compacts and fullsize I carry only .40-.45. Despite all the science, I feel that handguns are pretty weak, so I try to avoid 9mm, except when hard to shoot smaller guns require it.

MrDig
April 5, 2012, 09:52 AM
9mm and 38 spc are the rounds I am most accurate shooting coincidentally I am also fastest with the 9 mm full size guns that I own. I am not as fast with a 38spc revolver but I shoot well with it so there you have it.
Shot placement, Shot placement, Shot Placement
get accurate, and practice drawing your weapon if you conceal carry.

easyg
April 5, 2012, 11:26 AM
In my experience with hand me down firearms or borrowed weapons I seem to be more accurate and faster for a given accuracy with a 1911 than an M9.
The only fair way to decide on caliber is to shoot the two different calibers in guns that are as close to identical as possible.

Try shooting a .45 auto 1911 vs a 9mm para 1911 style pistol.

I'm willing to bet that, all other things being equal, you will shoot the 9mm faster and more accurately.

David E
April 5, 2012, 11:56 AM
"better," "faster," "more accurately"......

These terms need specifics added.

Lets presume a 7 yd IPSC target, since most folks are referencing defensive pistol skills. If your split time (time between shots) with your 9mm is 1/2 second and you claim to be "faster" than your .45 acp's .75 splits, your assessment may be correct, but you seriously need to improve your technique and skills.

Then again, if you're making golf ball size groups at 7 yds instead of a centered 6-8" group, then maybe you need to reassess what'll work better in a defensive situation.

So in order to get some specific data,
let's do this:

7 yds,

IPSC target (or paper plate on a large piece of cardboard)

Start at low ready.

Using a shot timer, fire 6 rds in 8" or less.

Record times, including splits.

Compare calibers and/or guns.

Post your results.

Wapato
April 5, 2012, 12:45 PM
Interesting.

Actually a note on the comments regarding .40 S&W.

Does anybody know of a source for actual recoil produced by certain cartridges out of a certain length of barrel?

It's easy to get numbers for the bullet weight and velocity, but I'd expect the gasses escaping to make some difference too. The weight of the gasses and residucal combusion products from the powder burn would be a lot less than the bullet, but once the bullet clears the barrel I'd expect the escape velocity for the gas to be a lot higher than the velocity of the bullet.

So the difference might be significant. And I believe .40s load similar powder weight compared to a 45 but by operating at a higher pressure I'd expect significantly faster velocity from them.

But maybe it stays negligable, I just don't know.

akanotken
April 6, 2012, 01:29 PM
before you read any further you have to promise not to make fun of my shooting times. I could save money and time myself with a sun dial next time.

I ended up "testing" these 5 pistols: bhp 9mm, p99 9mm, sti trojan in 9mm, m&p in 40 and 45.
Let me fill you in on background. Skip to the results the below if you don't "speak" IDPA, don't care about me or just want the results.

Retired from IDPA 3 years ago as life demanded I make some changes. I'm dusting off my guns and inching back into it now. I'm classified as expert in SSP (~120 secs) and Sharpshooter with ESP (~114 secs) when I stopped shooting.

I've decided to become more of a student of the mechanics of shooting. I'm starting with Bill drills as they are a good way to learn to track sights and prep the trigger. I recently decided to go up in caliber for carry and home defense. I bought an m&p in both 40 and 45, but I haven't wrung them out. This is another reason for running this exercise.

Set up
All pistols are completely stock, except for night sights on the P99. Guessing I have 12K thru the bhp, 7K thru the p99. I also ran my STI 9mm (1911) and it has ~500 rounds thru it and the m&p's both have a couple of boxes thru them. All ammo is "target fmj" ammo. Store bought, but not "hot" or jhp's or what you might be using for serious work.

Used an IDPA target. Measured 7 yards. Drew from holster on belt, no concealment. 6 rounds into the 8 inch circle. I only count clean runs.

Set timer for standard 3 second delay, but I'm not trying to jump the timer, in fact I slowed down my draw to insure a good grip on gun.

Guns start at carry condition. BHP and 1911 are cocked and locked. My p99 is the DA/SA and started decocked. M&P's have no mechanical safeties.

Holsters are all kydex. BHP is a talon, the p99 is unknown brand, 1911 out of a bladetech, M&P's out of a Serpa.

I'm listing my best times from each, tho it was late and I sometimes only recorded one clean run. When I had several clean runs the diff wasn't very much.

In order of shooting:
p99
draw: 1.88
splits:.32 .38 .29 .31 .28
shooting total: 1.58
grand total: 3.46

bhp
draw: 1.94
splits: .38 .33 .33 .33 .34
shooting total: 1.71
grand total: 3.65

sti
draw: 2.01
splits: .35 .33 .31 .26 .24
shooting total: 1.49
grand total: 3.50

M&P40
draw:1.95
splits: .40 .39 .42 .39 .36
shooting total: 1.96
grand total: 3.91

M&P45
draw:2.46 I don't remember why so slow here, likely missed serpa's paddle?
splits: .48 .44 .52 .50 .54
shooting total:2.48
grand total:4.94

Don't get me wrong, I know this isn't good experimental design. I'm less familiar with m&P's in general (If I'd had a m&p in 9mm there would be some good conclusions). I've competed mostly in 9mm, shot a year or so with an xd40 and shot a little with 1911 in .45.

These represent what an unpracticed effort in speed could give initially. The target time on a bill drill is sub 2 seconds, so I'm a long way off. I tried to shoot with discipline shooting only when I tracked sights back into the -0 region of the target.

I'd be willing to bet that all of my times would be similar if I could afford to do this drill 2-3x a week for a month or two.

Next time out I'm going to run the bill drill with and without a laser, I will keep an M6 on my HD gun when I finish vetting it. I think I'll run slower with a laser but am curious to see.

9mmepiphany
April 6, 2012, 01:51 PM
Thank you akanotken

I found this very interesting and like the way you broke it down...That draw of the M&P45 does sort of stand out.

For folks who want to try this at home, please don't just take out your favorite gun and try to beat his times...this isn't a competition.

What validates the data is to compare your control between various platforms and calibers...and the Bill Drill is a easy way to do it.

If someone has Glocks or M&Ps in all three calibers, it would give us a great baseline

David E
April 6, 2012, 02:49 PM
Total shot time is what matters, since, in theory, the draw should be the same no matter what the gun is. I believe what we're after is the controllability as measured in the shot-to-shot time.

This is why I suggested starting at High Ready instead of the holster.

And of course I'm going to try and beat his times! But the more interesting part will be how I compare to myself between calibers. Maybe I can give it a go tomorrow.

9mmepiphany
April 6, 2012, 03:22 PM
Now, I'm really interested.

And you're right, the times we are comparing should not include the draw time...I'd even throw out the time to the first shot and just compare the split times

The last time I worked on my draw, I was stunned by how slow I had gotten...not enough practice. I got an inkling of how slow I had gotten at the Gunsite 250 class when I could make a head box shot on the draw in 1.5 seconds. I also found that I'm a lot slower responding to a visual start than to an audio one...Too Many Mind

David E
April 6, 2012, 03:29 PM
Exactly. I disregarded his first shot time. I presume he had his shots with an 8" or 10" circle.

It appears he only did one run each. I'm thinking best 4 out of 5, throwing out the worst one. This would indicate consistency instead of comparing one great 9mm run with one horrible .45 run, or vice versa. I was thinking about using 1911's in 9mm, .40 and .45, but I could do Glox in the same calibers. Maybe I'll do both, but I may cut down on the number of runs.

akanotken
April 6, 2012, 05:11 PM
I had a lot of stuff to work on ... a couple of .22's to sight in and a shotgun to check. This ended up being my last "exercise" of the day and it took longer than I thought.

Before I ever started this exercise I actually did some par time draws to remind myself what a 1.5 second draw feels like ;(

The .45 suffered from some fatigue I'm sure, and the statistician in me would say to mix things up. But as with all statistical experiments it suffers from number of observations! where's my ammo tree and back yard range!!!!

The other thing that will be hard to explain is the target's condition. I only tape up misses, so the scoring ring gradually degrades. But I have a leftward bias and so as it becomes less cardboard and more backstop my eye is naturally drawn that way. the leftward bias becomes even more pronounced. So, there were MANY runs with a single leftward miss ;( Perfect world I'd take the time to paste center holes and I'd have hung a replacement target.

As was said before, ANY presentation means you toss the first shot out. It might not be clear but the draw time is the time to the first shot. I split it out because of the OP's original question. As someone else said the next 5 are all that's of interest to this thread.

Lastly, I lost several runs because I tried using my android phone as the timer so that I could just email myself results. A couple of runs were lost before I switched back to my pact timer. The results are actually transcribed over to my phone and sent as texts to myself ;)

I didn't bother recording any of the runs with misses.

Days coming to a close, if I can make it in time I'm heading back out after I finish up some stuff.

BTW, if you are shooting against a particular time you are likely not to get the benefit of the exercise as I understand it. As Brian Enos would say .... concentrate on seeing what you need to see ... or something zen ish like that!

David E
April 6, 2012, 05:45 PM
I'm going to try this after a long match in the sun tomorrow, so we will see how much energy I have left.

I will put a sheet of typing paper on the IPSC target and use a fresh sheet each time. Using paper clamps, they'll be quick and easy to change out.

Also, I need to sight in my 10-22 with new sights for the State Ruger Rimfire Challenge next week. (I didn't want to wait til the last minute, don't you know!)

Ankeny
April 6, 2012, 07:27 PM
Comparing 2 lightweight Commander style pistols, one in 9mm and one in .45, the 9mm shooting Remington 125 grain Golden Saber and the .45 shooting 230 grain Golden Saber. At 7 yards on an IPSC target there is little difference in shooting a pair to the A box. Given two targets with a pair on each, still not a lot of difference in time, but a bit better accuracy with the 9mm simply because the gun tracks better. However, as the number of rounds fired increases and my platform (most notable the grip) deteriorates, the 9mm becomes much more controllable. Physics is physics and mother nature will not be denied. The difference in time on a Bill Drill is only a few tenths, but my accuracy is better with the 9mm.

Like others, my time and accuracy change when I switch platforms. For instance, Glocks point a bit high for me so when I shoot a Bill Drill at speed my hits are typically at the top of the A Box and the time is a bit slower because of the mechanics of the trigger. Here are a couple of vids.

Glock 19 Bill Drill (http://www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/G19%20Bill%20Drill.wmv) Les Baer .45 ACP Bill Drill (http://www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/bill.WMV)

David E
April 8, 2012, 01:35 AM
Shot a match today and stayed to shoot an IPSC target at 7 yds to compare times between calibers.

I ran late this morning, so only had a Colt .45 Commander, a Colt Govt 9mm, a 9mm M&P Pro and a Browning Buckmark .22

I accepted any group that was 8" or better, taping between each run.

.45 ammo was my Major Power Factor reloads, not +P by any means, but "major" nonetheless.

9mm was WWB

Cutting to the chase: I disregarded the first shot and averaged the next 5 rds. I achieved 4 good runs each with the Colts .45 and 9mm. I then tossed out the worst one, giving me a pretty good informative average.

Colt Commander .45

Best 3 totals: .92, .93, .92.

Average Split: .1847

Colt Govt 9mm

Best 3 totals: .86, .84, .89

Average Split: .1727

DIFFERENCE of .012 Or, 12 thousandths of a second between a .45 and a 9mm, both punching out 8" or better groups.

As a side note, I fired the M&P twice, averaging a split of .177

The Buckmark, stock, save for the "Heggis Flip." The 4-run average split was .1623, but the groups were tennis ball size or smaller.

I took pictures of groups, but don't know how to post them from the iPhone.

If anyone cares, I can post all the splits.

I found the results interesting. I hope you did, too.

Ankeny
April 8, 2012, 12:11 PM
So what would happen if you used some full boat carry loads and counted every shot without discarding fliers and/or groups that don't make the accuracy requirement?

David E
April 8, 2012, 03:01 PM
So what would happen if you used some full boat carry loads and counted every shot without discarding fliers and/or groups that don't make the accuracy requirement?

Ron, you had started a thread a little while back asking folks where they draw the line between power and controllability. A couple years before, I decided not to load my Compact Aluminum Stainless Kimber .45 (Ltwt Officer's size) with +P ammo. It was quite a handful. Standard pressure .45 acp is fine and has been for decades. I feel totally fine with standard pressure .45 ammo, but in 9mm, I prefer +P in all but my P-9

But what would happen if both guns kicked more? Pretty much the same results, I expect.

Ankeny
April 8, 2012, 08:52 PM
David:

I guess I shouldn't be reading between the lines. I am assuming your point is there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between a .45 and a 9mm as far as control? That might be somewhat true in the case of a Bill drill if that is the yard stick. But I don't think that would be true of something like a plate rack. Maybe I am just lost here.

David E
April 8, 2012, 09:02 PM
I simply posted my results shooting those guns with the stated ammo in the drill described.

I have no idea how others will fare doing the same thing..... but maybe posting my results will motivate others to go to the range and actually find out.

Or not...

Wapato
April 9, 2012, 12:45 PM
First off, very cool with Akanotken, Ankeny and David E actually doing experiments.

A question on something I saw coming up a couple times regarding accuracy.

For myself, in my relatively untrained state for bill drills, I can trade between time and accuracy. i.e. if I find myself shooting well within the bounds it means I can go faster, which opens the group up.

As you get faster, do other limitations mean you can't continue to make that trade off? For example Ankeny going faster with your tighter 9mm groups or David with your much tighter 22 groups.

David E
April 9, 2012, 03:54 PM
There comes a time where you reach the point of not physically being able to go faster. This presumes properly executed technique, as poor technique or perfect technique executed poorly will artificially limit your speed.

I had split of .08 before and it was at a match, so plenty of witnesses. We reviewed the timer to see how fast that last shot really was.

Three things from that shot revealed themselves to me:

1). dang, that was fast!

2). I can't do it on demand. In fact, in 30 years of shooting, that's the only .08 I've ever had. (firing properly) regardless of caliber. That time it was a .40

3). That shot hit the target! This proved my technique works quickly and well. (it also made me wonder why I still miss...)

My point is, staying inside practical parameters, using the time it takes you to return your trigger finger forward for the next shot, you can shoot 9mm/.40/.45 equally well, or so close it really doesn't matter.

I actually had an easier time keeping the .45 groups in the acceptable range, disregarding only one or two. The 9mm proved harder even tho it kicked less, but I started out on these drills tired, so really didn't try to figure out why.

Another point is, it's not the simple caliber comparison some make it out to be. What load in what kind of gun? I've found previously that action type affects my split time more than caliber.

Wapato
April 9, 2012, 05:12 PM
There comes a time where you reach the point of not physically being able to go faster. This presumes properly executed technique, as poor technique or perfect technique executed poorly will artificially limit your speed.

I had split of .08 before and it was at a match, so plenty of witnesses. We reviewed the timer to see how fast that last shot really was.

Three things from that shot revealed themselves to me:

1). dang, that was fast!

2). I can't do it on demand. In fact, in 30 years of shooting, that's the only .08 I've ever had. (firing properly) regardless of caliber. That time it was a .40

3). That shot hit the target! This proved my technique works quickly and well. (it also made me wonder why I still miss...)

My point is, staying inside practical parameters, using the time it takes you to return your trigger finger forward for the next shot, you can shoot 9mm/.40/.45 equally well, or so close it really doesn't matter.

I actually had an easier time keeping the .45 groups in the acceptable range, disregarding only one or two. The 9mm proved harder even tho it kicked less, but I started out on these drills tired, so really didn't try to figure out why.

Another point is, it's not the simple caliber comparison some make it out to be. What load in what kind of gun? I've found previously that action type affects my split time more than caliber.
Obviously the type of gun and its features are going to make a difference. However presumably you could get a given feature in any calibre.

Heck, I've got a .22 target pistol with a recoil compensator on it.

So the point of all this is that I'd think of the features and calibre questions as seperate. If small variations in pistol design or slide/spring weight are enough to mask the differences of calibre, I'd take that to mean the calibre effects are pretty slight.

mls
April 9, 2012, 07:24 PM
Sometimes I get a little hung-up on trigger control with a particular platform because i shoot several]. I find my groups opening up a bit. I have found that if I get them all out and focus only on the front sight alignment and draw and fire, I come back to normal. ...22 markIII, s&w revolvers, 38, 357, 44 mag, sig 226 9mm,sig 229 40, and 1911 45. Just focus and fire...works for me even though different trigger systems. Different calibers, I don't care...different recoil, I don't care, never did, it just does not bother me. My carry is the sigs, DA/SA, so I always start and finish with them. But my favorite, oh my, the 1911.

David E
April 9, 2012, 09:12 PM
I'd take that to mean the calibre effects are pretty slight.

For me, that appears to be the case.

I shot 150 or so rds thru the 9mm M&P Pro for the match, just prior to firing my drills. I shot the .45 Commander first, then the 9mm Govt. I shot this 9mm more than the .45 due to the groups. I then shot the M&P. I was surprised how much more it kicked compared to the all steel guns. Regardless, I posted acceptable groups both times.

I may have a chance to return to the range this week, so I might try some different guns on this.

allaroundhunter
April 9, 2012, 09:23 PM
David, thanks for the test results. Your results as far as .45 being about the same as 9mm mirror mine, though I have just used an iPhone shot timer so I don't think it is the most accurate measurement. My splits are just a little slower than yours however, maybe I need a little more practice ;)

David E
April 9, 2012, 10:11 PM
Well, there is that whole "practice" thing.....:D

But you reminded me of something else: this is why we need to identify specifics. If one guy says he can shoot a .44 magnum "just as fast" as his 9mm, we need to find out what his splits are. If he's taking 1.3 seconds between shots, regardless of caliber, he's not a guy I'd listen to about how to shoot fast and accurately.

Wapato
April 9, 2012, 10:57 PM
Sadly I'm shooting at an indoor range that's pretty popular. So I can't really use a shot timer.

Or rather I could, and then brag about how according to my shot timer I get all six shots off within a quarter second. :p

David E
April 9, 2012, 11:23 PM
What you could do at an indoor range is use the Par Time setting on your timer. It won't give you splits, but you can see if you're making ever decreasing par times.

Allow yourself .75 for the first shot, starting from Low Ready and go from there.

theQman23
April 10, 2012, 12:31 AM
My little plastic carry glock .40 mod 27 is the most recoily, complainy little bugger to shoot. The all steel gov sized 1911 45's do in fact have the best triggers I've ever felt on any gun, of any kind.

But when it comes to shooting tight groups very quickly, I have to say my S&W model 39-2 9mm in da/sa takes the cake. The reset of the metal trigger/sear/hammer parts are better made than on the glocks, and after the first da pull the rest of the sa pulls are of course immaculate. Not 1911 perfect, but very, very nice. The 9 recoils SO MUCH less than the 45, that it gets the nod as the "fastest" gun in my handgun collection.

That being said, I don't trust the stopping efficiency of a 9, so I carry the 40 when dressing for warm weather and the 1911 when dressed for cooler weather. The 39-2 although, very ,very nice, has been relegated to range duty and not carry duty.

Shoobee
April 10, 2012, 02:57 AM
Wapato you are going to need to go to an indoor shooting range that rents various firearms and give them all a try.

Generally speaking, you will find that either the 38 or the 38 special or the 9mm or the .40 or the 45ACP or the 10mm is best for you, in terms of grip, recoil, and accuracy.

This science project can only be done right if you investigate all the possibilities yourself.

For every person there is usually one calibre that is magic. And it is purely individual.

David E
April 10, 2012, 10:30 AM
It all depends on the load and what gun it's fired in, not merely caliber.

Wapato
April 10, 2012, 12:26 PM
What you could do at an indoor range is use the Par Time setting on your timer. It won't give you splits, but you can see if you're making ever decreasing par times.

Allow yourself .75 for the first shot, starting from Low Ready and go from there.
How does that help? The issue is that while I'm shooting, so are a dozen or so other people. All the shot detectors I know of are based on detecting sound, so I'd just expect the time to always tell me that I'm fast like a machinegun.

Well, I suppose people aren't dumping ammo that fast. But I'd expect at least one other shot in any two second period of time.

Wapato
April 10, 2012, 12:28 PM
Wapato you are going to need to go to an indoor shooting range that rents various firearms and give them all a try.

Generally speaking, you will find that either the 38 or the 38 special or the 9mm or the .40 or the 45ACP or the 10mm is best for you, in terms of grip, recoil, and accuracy.

This science project can only be done right if you investigate all the possibilities yourself.

For every person there is usually one calibre that is magic. And it is purely individual.
A lot of people say that. But are first impressions really indicative of future performance? I guess maybe for something like grip feel it could be.

And I suppose there is something to be said for just having something and thinking you like it. The odds of actually ever using it outside of sport and competition are pretty low.


EDIT: Is there some way to get the forum to let you multiquote?

David E
April 10, 2012, 04:36 PM
How does that help? The issue is that while I'm shooting, so are a dozen or so other people. All the shot detectors I know of are based on detecting sound, so I'd just expect the time to always tell me that I'm fast like a machinegun.

Well, I suppose people aren't dumping ammo that fast. But I'd expect at least one other shot in any two second period of time.

As I said, it won't give you splits, but you can determine if you're making ever decreasing Par Times.

"Par time" is when you enter a predetermined time frame into the timer. The timer beeps at the beginning of that time and again at the end.

Let's say you want to see if you can fire six accurate shots in 1.5 seconds. Add the suggested .75 to allow for your reaction/movement for the first shot. Par time entered is 2.25 seconds. Put the timer on "random start."

Assume the low ready position after pressing start. At the beep, raise the gun and fire six shots. Hopefully, you'll hear the beep sound again when 2.25 seconds have elapsed. If you're happy with the results, enter 2.15 seconds as the par time and repeat. Keep going until you're just shy of making the time.

When able, do this alone so you can learn more about your splits and actual time. Meanwhile, this is a good way to utilize a timer at a crowded range.

allaroundhunter
April 10, 2012, 04:54 PM
EDIT: Is there some way to get the forum to let you multiquote?Yes there is.

Here is how I did that (just remove the asterisks to make it look like it does above)

[*QUOTE][*QUOTE]EDIT: Is there some way to get the forum to let you multiquote?[/QUOTE*]Yes there is.[/QUOTE*]


Sorry to go off topic for a second there.

Wapato
April 10, 2012, 05:37 PM
@David E

Ah, I see what you're saying. I suppose that would work. I didn't know about that setting.

@Allaroundhunter

Well, that's doing it manually and without the view post link. Also what I meant was being able to quote multiple posters at once in a reply.

But maybe copy pasting and manually putting in the quote boxes is the best way to do it on this board.

Ankeny
April 10, 2012, 07:04 PM
I'd take that to mean the calibre effects are pretty slight. For me, that depends on the difference in calibers and on the drill. Try shooting a plate rack with a lightweight Officer's model in 9mm with factory self defense ammo, then repeat the drill with a .45 shooting factory self defense ammo. Heck, grab a .357 Magnum revolver and shoot a few drills with .38 Special ammo, then switch to .357 Magnum. Or maybe a .44 magnum wheel gun, then switch to .44 Special? Common sense and physics will enter into the picture real fast.

I once had a really nice .38 Super single stack made by Benny Hill. I shot the gun in steel matches and also in single stack. The loads were minor power factor. Just as a for instance, my El Pres drills with the .38 Super loads would run right at 5 seconds until I was ankle deep in brass. I dropped a 9x23 barrel in for self defense. Shooting full boat 9x23 ammo, my times on the El Pres went up (by 40% or more) and the accuracy went down.

If one wants to use timing drills or Bill drills as the yard stick, the difference may or may not be substantial depending on how proficient one is at Bill Drills. :) My splits on a Bill Drill run about the same regardless of caliber (within reason) given comparable guns with decent triggers.

David E
April 11, 2012, 12:08 AM
For most people, the splits on a plate rack are slower than the splits on a Bill Drill.

Wapato
April 11, 2012, 01:01 PM
Wait, why would an El Presidente go up that much? With all the extra movement involved, I'd have thought it would actually be relatively insensitive to significantly greater recoil.

But I think that might make me get something David E said earlier. It sounds like maybe there are sort of thresholds for when recoil becomes bad enough it really makes a difference.

So even if you can match features, the calibre difference could change, as opposed to one always being 20% faster for any given matching configuration.

i.e. in full sized all metal guns with recoil compensators maybe there is virtually no difference in times between 9mm and 45. But maybe in pocket guns is a huge difference between the two.

allaroundhunter
April 11, 2012, 02:42 PM
i.e. in full sized all metal guns with recoil compensators maybe there is virtually no difference in times between 9mm and 45. But maybe in pocket guns is a huge difference between the two.

I could agree with that.

Ankeny
April 11, 2012, 03:20 PM
For most people, the splits on a plate rack are slower than the splits on a Bill Drill. Of course splits are multiples on the same target whereas a plate rack features transitions. Big difference. Therefore, the example of a plate rack is a discussion about recoil and caliber making a difference in transitions.

Wait, why would an El Presidente go up that much? With all the extra movement involved, I'd have thought it would actually be relatively insensitive to significantly greater recoil. Well, maybe it wouldn't go up that much for you. When shooting an El Pres at speed with accuracy, the splits on each target are pretty much a single or continuous sight picture. You should know where each shot will impact at the exact time the firearm discharges (calling the shot). Even under recoil you track the sights peripherally. The more recoil you have to contend with, the harder it is to truly maintain a total awareness of the relationship of the gun to the target face.

After the second shot is fired, the eyes snap to the next target and the firearm follows the eyes. The more the gun recoils, the harder it is to "ride the recoil" smoothly as the gun is brought into the next position (the same is true of a plate rack). As control-ability (for lack of a better term) is compromised, the more apt the gun is to arrive on the next target with the front sight bouncing around like a tuning fork. If the gun really kicks, your grip can also be compromised adding one more variable into the mix.

FWIW, I am comparing full house 9x23 ammo to bunny fart .38 Super loads. The 9x23 runs a 125 grain bullet at 1425-1450 fps depending on the ambient temperature, the .38 Super was running a 125 grain bullet at around 1025 fps. I suppose there might be some hot rock pistolero out there who can shoot a 5 second El Pres with a 9x23, but it isn't me. :)

9mmepiphany
April 11, 2012, 03:24 PM
Wait, why would an El Presidente go up that much? With all the extra movement involved, I'd have thought it would actually be relatively insensitive to significantly greater recoil.
Because with the correct technique the Bill Drill is shot without having to re-align the sights on the target...they re-align themselves.

It removes the additional variable to compare the differences between calibers.

The ultimate limit of the speed you can shoot accurately is:
1. the time for the action to cycle
2. the time for you to perceive the aligned sights as being back on target
3. the time between your perception and your ability to press the trigger

9mmepiphany
April 11, 2012, 03:30 PM
I suppose there might be some hot rock pistolero out there who can shoot a 5 second El Pres with a 9x23, but it isn't me
Isn't it interesting that when Jeff Cooper first introduce the El Prez that the par time was 10 seconds. And it was a major accomplishment to be able to do it 3 separate times, on demand, without a warmup.

m2steven
April 11, 2012, 04:46 PM
What surprised me is that I'm as good with my Glock 36 (a 45acp) as with some of my better 9mms such as the CZ-75b et al. Even though it's a light, small plastic pistol, it shoots really easy. The hardest shooting pistols to me are some of the teensy 380 caliber pistols and many 40 cals.

I have a 1911 and it's the model for easy to shoot, but it should be as it's full size and heavy.

Design is everything. I've got a Sig P238 and it is like shooting a pellet pistol, and I've a ruger LCP that, to me, is a little beast.

Apparently your personal anatomy is very key. Some people don't seem affected by any pistol's recoil. I'm not one of them.

David E
April 11, 2012, 06:49 PM
Of course splits are multiples on the same target whereas a plate rack features transitions. Big difference.

Yes, it's a big difference for sure but for purposes of this discussion, I was simply referring to time between shots, regardless of the label.

Even under recoil you track the sights peripherally. The more recoil you have to contend with, the harder it is to truly maintain a total awareness of the relationship of the gun to the target

I don't care where the sights go during recoil, I only care that they come back to the same place. That said, I like to see the front sight initially "lift," but I don't care, much less track, where it goes afterwards.

Ankeny
April 11, 2012, 10:50 PM
Isn't it interesting that when Jeff Cooper first introduced the El Prez that the par time was 10 seconds. Yup. Then again if I shot a mil-spec gun out of a leather holster with full boat ammo...you know what I mean? ;)

I don't care where the sights go during recoil, I only care that they come back to the same place. That said, I like to see the front sight initially "lift," but I don't care, much less track, where it goes afterwards. I guess that's why each one of us needs to decide what we need to see to make and call the shot. I should have used the word "I" instead of "you" in the quote. With multiples on one target I pretty much see one continuous sight picture.

David E
April 11, 2012, 11:27 PM
Interesting. I see a series of individual flash sight pictures.

As long as one sees what's necessary to make the hit, thats what counts.

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