Micro 9mm gun idea


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sawdeanz
March 30, 2012, 02:02 PM
I was doodling in class today and thought of an idea. It reminded me of a thread I saw on here, (but can't find anymore) about whether 9mm pistols could possibly get physically smaller than they are now.

How about this? Make a polymer framed sub-compact based on the HK P7 gas action, for the lowest possible barrel axis and fixed barrel accuracy. Then put the recoil spring around the barrel (think makarov design) and move the gas port in front of trigger instead of between the trigger and barrel for an even lower axis. It will be a low as you can be short of getting one of those competition pistols with the mag out front.

Next make it a slide in frame design like a CZ so you have more surface areas for your hands and to make it impossible to rack the slide :cool:

But hey, for a carry piece, who cares if it heats up? Modern polymers should protect against heat well enough. You can throw in a squeeze-cocker if you want, but that's not necessary to the design.

In other words why can't they remake a p7 into a subcompact with a polymer frame? The patents have got to be expired on them by now, so how come noone is making new ones? Would the design work with polymer? Am I missing something? Why bother you ask? Because the tilting barrel design will always require vertical space, and everyone loves fixed barrels. (although I have an idea for the tilting barrel design too ;) )


P.S. If you all really want a sketch i'll try redrawing it so you don't have to see my history of violence in america notes (I'm serious, how ironic is that?)

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LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 30, 2012, 04:57 PM
As far as the CZ slide style goes, I'd say no. While I do like the idea of it, I could never get enough hand on it. And this was at my LGS and on a CZ-75B

Sam Cade
March 30, 2012, 06:01 PM
How about this? Make a polymer framed sub-compact based on the HK P7 gas action, for the lowest possible barrel axis and fixed barrel accuracy. Then put the recoil spring around the barrel (think makarov design) and move the gas port in front of trigger instead of between the trigger and barrel for an even lower axis.


Have you you ever had a P7 apart?

MachIVshooter
March 30, 2012, 06:10 PM
To make diminutive guns, they need to be kept simple. It's really ony been in recent years on account of better metallurgy that locked breech has found it's way into the micro guns. But a gas system? No matter what you do, it adds bulk and weight to a handgun. It's also not necessary, save for big boomers like the Desert Eagle; Short recoil designs chambered in .50 AE (LAR Grizzly MK V, AMT Automag V) have ridiculous recoil springs.

The Rorbaugh R9 is the practical limit on dimensions, and the PF-9 is it for weight, with the Kahr PM9 being the best combination of small/light/reliable (smaller than PF-9, more reliable than R9, barely heavier than either). Get smaller than the Rorbaugh, you have functional problems and lighter than the 12 ounce PF9, no one will want to shoot it.

How many people like the idea of the 11.3 ounce S&W 340 PD .357 magnum but are unwilling to fire it more than once? I know quite a few. Guns that hurt people don't get practiced with.

sawdeanz
March 30, 2012, 06:17 PM
Nope, just sort of a thought experiment. So is a polymer p7 out of the question

Sam Cade
March 30, 2012, 06:28 PM
Nope, just sort of a thought experiment. So is a polymer p7 out of the question



Pretty much. The heat from the gas has to go someplace. The metal frame on a P7 acts as a heat sink and doesn't take much shooting to get it hot enough to blister.

..also, the recoil spring is already around the barrel.

http://www.gunfaqs.org/P7FAQ/Magazine_Articles/Early%2882%29P7broch-2.jpg

FAS1
March 30, 2012, 06:50 PM
Last time I looked at this the Boberg XR9-S wasn't on there. Seems like we have some pretty good choices in a small 9mm. Might need to upgrade the .380 soon (P3AT).

http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

sawdeanz
March 30, 2012, 07:07 PM
Hmmp, well u learn something new. I was looking at some diagram and got the spring mixed up wiith the plunger thing. I still say they gotta make start making them again, as much as I want one I don't want to spend $800 on a used shooter, at least not at this point in life

56hawk
March 30, 2012, 08:35 PM
But a gas system? No matter what you do, it adds bulk and weight to a handgun.

Actually the P7 has a gas delayed blowback action where the gas pressure keeps the slide closed. It's a lot lighter and simpler than pretty much anything else.

I think a subcompact using the same system would be a great idea.

johnnydollar
March 30, 2012, 09:59 PM
Hmmp, well u learn something new. I was looking at some diagram and got the spring mixed up wiith the plunger thing. I still say they gotta make start making them again, as much as I want one I don't want to spend $800 on a used shooter, at least not at this point in life

I have...well, more than one P7, and I have never paid more than $650 OTD for one. The recent flood of German police surplus P7s has made them much more affordable than ever before, and there are still good deals out there if you are diligent. I could tell by your first post that you have no experience with the P7, but if you ever shoot one--and you should(!)--you will understand two things: one, the P7 is wonderfully compact as it is (even if it is not particularly light, it is very well balanced), and: two, even $800 for a used one is not a bad price to pay for one of the finest pistols ever built.

Shadow 7D
March 30, 2012, 10:17 PM
Um, the gas systems mean they are a bit touchy about barrel length.
the P7 has heat issues, dump a mag and well there's issues
make it smaller, well........

The Lone Haranguer
March 31, 2012, 08:43 AM
How "micro" are we talking about? Don't forget that a human still has to hold and shoot it. For example, the "fleaweight" .357 Magnum revolver (more power in a smaller package and all that) sounds great ... until you actually shoot it. :uhoh:

MachIVshooter
March 31, 2012, 11:53 AM
Actually the P7 has a gas delayed blowback action where the gas pressure keeps the slide closed. It's a lot lighter and simpler than pretty much anything else.

I know, and it's still a gas system. I didn't specify a type. And I'd have to see the HK's barrel, recoil spring, guide rod, gas chamber, locking block and roller on a scale alongside the barrel, spring and rod (if present) of a short recoil design of the same length before I buy that it's lighter. It's certainly not simpler.

56hawk
March 31, 2012, 05:51 PM
I'd have to see the HK's barrel, recoil spring, guide rod, gas chamber, locking block and roller on a scale alongside the barrel, spring and rod (if present) of a short recoil design of the same length before I buy that it's lighter. It's certainly not simpler.

The HK P7 doesn't have a guide rod, locking block or roller. Here is mine field stripped next to a 1911:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=161986&d=1333226859

sawdeanz
March 31, 2012, 08:34 PM
I mean I used to think the p7 was small till I saw one in person. In that picture its not much smaller than the 1911. But I feel like the design has pocket pistol potential.

fatcat4620
March 31, 2012, 09:59 PM
Saw, also look up the cz52. It has a roller locking system that is as compact as the p7 but should be more reliable in a short barrel.

VA27
March 31, 2012, 10:26 PM
The Micro Desert Eagle uses a gas retarded blowback action. Two gas ports angle up from the mouth of the chamber and direct gases against the front edge of the ejection port to retard slide movement. It's a pretty ingenious design and it works.

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 12:36 AM
The HK P7 doesn't have a guide rod, locking block or roller.

What would you call those pieces still attached to the front of the slide, then?

The Micro Desert Eagle uses a gas retarded blowback action. Two gas ports angle up from the mouth of the chamber and direct gases against the front edge of the ejection port to retard slide movement. It's a pretty ingenious design and it works.

They're also very snappy little pistols, much more unpleasant to fire than the far lighter weight short recoil P3AT.

56hawk
April 1, 2012, 12:54 AM
What would you call those pieces still attached to the front of the slide, then?

That's the gas piston.

hso
April 1, 2012, 12:59 AM
The smallest of the P7s was the multicalibler K3. Still, no where as small as the 9mm mouse guns.

Sam Cade
April 1, 2012, 02:45 AM
I mean I used to think the p7 was small till I saw one in person. In that picture its not much smaller than the 1911.

They are pretty small.

A P7 is about 2 inches shorter in length,half an inch in height and around 3/4 of a pound lighter than a 1911.

Loosing the sqeeze cocker function and going to an old style fully cocked striker and sizing the grip to match a shorter magazine would make it tiny.

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 12:04 PM
That's the gas piston.

Which has an incorporated locking block and a pin that acts as a roller for the block to cam on. They cannot be excluded from the operating system.

Shear_stress
April 1, 2012, 12:29 PM
Which has an incorporated locking block and a pin that acts as a roller for the block to cam on. They cannot be excluded from the operating system.

There is no locking block and no camming. The gas piston is simply hinged to aid assembly.

The P7 uses gas pressure to keep the slide in battery, not to "unlock" it.

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 12:46 PM
There is no locking block and no camming. The gas piston is simply hinged to aid assembly.

OK, my fault for misunderstanding the system. Still, the piston and pin are part of it.

sawdeanz
April 1, 2012, 11:20 PM
They are pretty small.

A P7 is about 2 inches shorter in length,half an inch in height and around 3/4 of a pound lighter than a 1911.

Loosing the sqeeze cocker function and going to an old style fully cocked striker and sizing the grip to match a shorter magazine would make it tiny.
That's what I'm getting at, I feel like the mechanism is compact and has a low axis, but the other parts of the gun make it too big to be a subcompact. It's compact like a G19 is compact.

Fatcat: I will look into the cz52 also, although I've never understood how the roller locking system works, does anyone have a link to a good explanation of it? Is that like the roller systems on their rifles?

And yes I understand that "micro" is not really fun to shoot, but there is a market out their obviously, and it was kind of a thought experiment based on whether we have reached the apex of handgun technology etc.

kb58
April 1, 2012, 11:34 PM
For some reason when I read the OP's post I saw "I was drooling in class today and thought of an idea...."

I thought that was pretty funny, sorry for the hijack.

gearhead
April 1, 2012, 11:40 PM
No need to apologize for a thought experiment. Keep thinking and absorb all you can, that's how new ideas come about.

MachIVshooter
April 1, 2012, 11:45 PM
Is that like the roller systems on their rifles?

Yes, except that the rollers are attached to the barrel/breechblock assembly, rather than a bolt.

Shadow 7D
April 2, 2012, 04:22 PM
As others have mentioned, there is a practical problem, you can only go so small, too small (most consider the R9 about as small as 9mm can go and still be shootable)

and you can't hold it or hit anything

Got too light (KT PF-9 is about as light as you want to go) and you can't hit anything or want to shoot it due to recoil

Gas has to vent somewhere, and when your hand is wrapped around the gun, you gotta put it somewhere

The P7 is known for 'heating up'

Sam Cade
April 2, 2012, 04:40 PM
That's what I'm getting at, I feel like the mechanism is compact and has a low axis, but the other parts of the gun make it too big to be a subcompact. It's compact like a G19 is compact.

A P7 is only 1/4" longer, 1/4" taller and 2 oz heavier than a subcompact XD.

They are quite small.

MachIVshooter
April 2, 2012, 07:05 PM
A P7 is only 1/4" longer, 1/4" taller and 2 oz heavier than a subcompact XD.

They are quite small.

But a subcompact XD (Or M&P or Glock) are considerably larger than the micro 9's (PF9, PM9, DB9, R9, etc.)

larryh1108
April 2, 2012, 07:09 PM
It is too big and heavy for a pocket pistol but they sure knew what they were doing when they designed it!
Cost may be a factor in buying one but it's worth every penny of $800.

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o435/larryh1108/HK%20P7/HKP7left.jpg

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o435/larryh1108/HK%20P7/HKP7right.jpg

LightningMan
April 2, 2012, 11:20 PM
I have a DB9 (Diamondback firearms) and it is small, comparible is size to a SIG P238. While I have some current issues with it feeding, it is getting better, but it is painful to shoot. I have figured out how to shoot it so it's not to bad, but still not a fun gun to shoot. I think it weighs a little more than 12 oz. empty, so it is a very pocketable 9mm in that respect. It may not quite be as small a R9, but it is lighter being a polymer framed pistol. In the end, I don't think I'd want anything lighter than a DB9 or smaller than a R9. LM

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