Here we go... Dry Firing.


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mikebravo
March 31, 2012, 03:12 PM
OK, so I am a lower budget shooter who lives in Oregon. What this means is that I can't afford much ammo and that it is ALWAYS raining, limiting range time. To counter this, I dry-fire almost every day, doing reloads, etc. I'd say that of every pull of the trigger, 95% of the time, I am shooting an unloaded gun. I do this with both my Beretta 92a1 and S&W M&P15. Now I know that gun manufacturers say to always use snap caps, but does it really make a difference?

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TurtlePhish
March 31, 2012, 03:27 PM
When I had an AR I dry-fired it a ton and suffered no ill effects. No visible damage to the firing pin and it still worked perfectly.

I think the "dangers" of dry-firing are exaggerated somewhat. Just don't do it to a rimfire and you'll be fine.

BUCKrub91
March 31, 2012, 03:29 PM
only time you will see a problem dry firing is with a rim fire

And I still dry fire them sometimes and never had a problem

mjsdwash
March 31, 2012, 03:30 PM
I know the beretta owners manual warns against it, but the ar should be fine.

JohnKSa
March 31, 2012, 03:33 PM
I never worry about a little dryfiring now and then (10 or 20 snaps with a gun once in awhile), but if I'm getting ready to do a lot of dryfiring (several minutes of practice), I generally do what I can to minimize the pounding the gun will take.

Can't say it's ever prevented anything from breaking, but I think it would be hard to argue that it hasn't prevented any wear at all.

Rail Driver
March 31, 2012, 03:34 PM
I dry fire everything EXCEPT my rimfires.

InfamousLegend
March 31, 2012, 04:18 PM
Why not rim fires in particular?

GCMkc
March 31, 2012, 04:26 PM
It is not advised on a rimfire because the firing pin will hit the face of the barrel and cause wear and broken firing pins if done enough.

rcmodel
March 31, 2012, 04:29 PM
Many old time inexpensive rim-fires would ding the edge of the chamber and leave a bur.

Modern ones don't.

Ruger and others say it is fine to dry-fire all you want.

rc

Busyhands94
March 31, 2012, 04:51 PM
If you are dry-firing centerfire guns you should be fine. I do it all the time with no problems. If you are dry firing rimfires then stick a spent case in the chamber to cushion the blow of the firing pin, and if you are going to do it with a blackpowder gun then remove the cones.

Levi

tyeo098
March 31, 2012, 05:32 PM
Also don't dry fire an AR LOWER. Hammers are steel, lowers are Aluminum.

When that steel hits the Aluminum... ouch.

With an Upper its OK because the hammer hits the firing pin before hitting t he lower itself.

Mike J
March 31, 2012, 06:04 PM
With some guns it is okay-with some it isn't. I just make it a point to read the owners manual.

Just a suggestion for another inexpensive alternative. For a while I was using a CO2 powered air pistol in the yard. When I went back to the range & shot my centerfires my groups had tightened up.

P-32
March 31, 2012, 08:10 PM
Dry fire practice is worth the time and effort. Most center fire rifles and pistols will take some dry fire without damage. I have a Marlin 336 which I dry fire but use a snap cap in it. The Marlin is used in matches too. I dry fire M1 Garands and match AR’s all the time. There are dry fire devices for these if you so desire.
I have been around M1 Garands since about 1987 and dry firing as part of getting ready for a match as needed. 10 minutes here, ten minutes there etc. Until last Sunday, I had never saw or heard of dry firing hurting a M1 Garand when I was shown the tab off a M1 firing pin. The tab came off while shooting the match. The owner of this rifle had dry fired the rifle extensively in preparation for a match. I’m sure the same extensive dry fire happened when he was getting ready to a shoot a match for the last couple of years.
This guy’s offhand was unbeatable. He was almost always got beat because he couldn’t get through a match mistake free. And besides the AR’s tear him up.

Just a suggestion for another inexpensive alternative. For a while I was using a CO2 powered air pistol in the yard. When I went back to the range & shot my centerfires my groups had tightened up.

I can also vouch for this. Mine's a match grade Daisy.

GLOOB
March 31, 2012, 08:25 PM
It's not ok to dryfire with all centerfire guns.
It's ok to dryfire some rimfire guns.
It's going to produce more wear on your trigger return spring if you're dryfiring a DA gun.

Take a 1911, for example. The firing pin extends quite far when there's nothing in there to hit. This compresses the firing pin spring more than when it's actually firing. If you do it a lot, you might end up with a broken firing pin spring sooner than expected. No big deal if you have time on your hands and a replacement. Might be a big deal if it's your only gun and you don't have a spare spring, or if you can't replace it yourself.

Rimfires: the design of the firing pin on most modern rimfires is such that they can't even reach the breechface. These are generally safe to dryfire.

If you can't tell the difference on your own, then read the manual and/or do an internet search for your particular firearm.

9mmepiphany
March 31, 2012, 08:33 PM
All the serious shooters I know are religious about their dryfire...usually 7:1 dryfire to livefire.

A IPSC GM and Master IDPA shooter once told me that if he had to choose between the two to improve or maintain his skill level, he'd choose dryfire as more beneficial. He is also the one who advised me not to abuse my pistols in dryfire .

You don't even have to spend money on snap caps just to work on trigger press...you will need them for magazine changes. You can go with an O-ring between the hammer face and the firing pin or even just a foam ear plug

ObsidianOne
March 31, 2012, 08:58 PM
I'm not sure if people are 100% sure if dryfiring hurts modern firearms (I'm not aware of this).
However, I made the decision to purchase a pack of snap caps and my reasoning was this:
What's more expensive, firearm failure and repair or a pack of snapcaps for >$15 (depending on caliber).

As I said, I bought the snap caps :)

The Lone Haranguer
March 31, 2012, 09:22 PM
You can use empty .22 LR cases as snap caps. They will have to be replaced frequently as the rims get more and more smashed, but a couple of handfuls will get you many hundreds of dryfires.

Beach Nut
March 31, 2012, 09:27 PM
I dry fire my revolvers on ocassion but I am hesitant about dry firing my
semiauto pistols. Is it ok to dry fire an AK? I just bought my first one
last week.

TurtlePhish
March 31, 2012, 10:24 PM
AKs are perfectly fine to dryfire. They have no bolt hold-open so it'll happen all the time anyway.

For rimfires, Savages should all be safe to dryfire. My 93 is- info here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=652350).

Ignition Override
April 1, 2012, 01:55 AM
How about Enfield #4s, #5s, the Spanish FR8 and the Garand or SKS?

Gtimothy
April 1, 2012, 08:17 AM
I don't know if your reference to reloads means you are practicing reloads or whatever but it's easy to make snap caps if you reload your own ammo. Just take a fired case, resize and deprime it. Seat and crimp a bullet into it..NO POWDER..then fill the primerhole with silicone caulk and let dry. I've done this for all of my guns so I can practice without worrying about damage to the gun. As for rimfires, I just don't dryfire them.

youngda9
April 1, 2012, 08:44 AM
Dry firing a gun is a lot easier on it than an explosion going off in the chamber with violent acceleration of the slide with hot gasses and brass being flung out of the gun. Think about it for a second, LOL.

Spdracr39
April 1, 2012, 09:14 AM
Question, Instead of using those ridiculously expensive plastic cartridges could you just use a fired round? I suppose that would be a little dangerous but you could color it with a sharpie or something to mark it.

Tbag
April 1, 2012, 09:31 AM
Here I fixed it to be a bit more clear.

Also don't dry fire an AR LOWER WITHOUT an UPPER ATTACHED. Hammers are steel, lowers are Aluminum.

When that steel hits the Aluminum... ouch. IT COULD CRACK THE LOWER'S MAG CATCH WALL.

With an Upper its OK because the hammer hits the firing pin before hitting t he lower itself.

230RN
April 1, 2012, 10:41 AM
As a side note, it's not universally true that you can dry-fire modern handguns with no problem. By practical experience, I find that dry-firing a PF-9 even once (which happened accidentally) can break out a small cross-piece in the frame.

I always use dummy rounds when dry-firing, no matter what the conventional wisdom is. I figure a couple of bucks for dummies beats a couple of hundred bucks for a gun. And getting into the "habit" of dry firing without dummies may well lead to damage when you pick up an older arm and click it a few times without thinking.

For another thing, it takes a deliberate action to remove the dummy or dummies, thus separating dry fire practice from having a live gun lying around. To me, this mental separation of modes is important.

I usually make my own dummies.

One hangup there is on .22s. Although they make plastic dummies in .22LR, I have found them unsatisfactory. What I do is take a fired .22 case and clip off a portion of the rim with a pair of flush cutting diagonal cutters ("dikes") and insert that case into the gun with the cut-out portion under the extractor. Thus, you can manipulate the action for re-cocking without extracting the case. (When done, of course you need a rod to push out the case.)

These "cutaway" dummies don't last very long --perhaps 20 or 30 cycles --but then again, neither do the plastic commercial .22 dummies.

Flush cutters can be obtained from electronic parts outlets, although other methods can be used to remove part of the rim. Needless to say, you should not do this with a live cartridge. That's my lawyer talkin'.

Incidentally, if needed, using a cutaway case deactivates a rimfire gun for unauthorized usage because it won't feed a live cartridge into the "dummied" chamber. A cleaning rod is needed to extract the case and reactivate the arm.

Also incidentally, a dinged-up .22 chamber can be ironed out with a simple little inexpensive tool available from Brownell's among other suppliers:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=8869/Product/-22-CHAMBER-IRONING-TOOL

I cannot testify as to its effectiveness.

Because I use dummies in the first place.

Terry, 230RN

JohnKSa
April 1, 2012, 01:29 PM
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=8...R-IRONING-TOOL

I cannot testify as to its effectiveness.Sadly, I can. It works very well.

9mmepiphany
April 1, 2012, 04:08 PM
I usually make my own dummies.

One hangup there is on .22s. Although they make plastic dummies in .22LR, I have found them unsatisfactory. What I do is take a fired .22 case and clip off a portion of the rim with a pair of flush cutting diagonal cutters ("dikes") and insert that case into the gun with the cut-out portion under the extractor. Thus, you can manipulate the action for re-cocking without extracting the case. (When done, of course you need a rod to push out the case.)

These "cutaway" dummies don't last very long --perhaps 20 or 30 cycles --but then again, neither do the plastic commercial .22 dummies.

Flush cutters can be obtained from electronic parts outlets, although other methods can be used to remove part of the rim. Needless to say, you should not do this with a live cartridge. That's my lawyer talkin'.

Incidentally, if needed, using a cutaway case deactivates a rimfire gun for unauthorized usage because it won't feed a live cartridge into the "dummied" chamber. A cleaning rod is needed to extract the case and reactivate the arm.
Folks should take note of this great idea.

The most irritating part of dryfire practice with a .22lr pistol is retracting the slide far enough to re-cock the action, but not so far that it ejects the empty casing

mljdeckard
April 1, 2012, 04:11 PM
I don't make a habit of dry-firing rimfires, but at the same time, I don't avoid dropping the hammer on the last round on my .22 autos. This means I dry-fire at least once per magazine.

B!ngo
April 1, 2012, 06:26 PM
I'm not sure if people are 100% sure if dryfiring hurts modern firearms (I'm not aware of this).
However, I made the decision to purchase a pack of snap caps and my reasoning was this:
What's more expensive, firearm failure and repair or a pack of snapcaps for >$15 (depending on caliber).

As I said, I bought the snap caps :)
Ditto. I understand the facts and that in most cases, centerfire is fine to DF and rimfire is not. OTOH, what is the difficulty in using snap caps? I have a set for every caliber and use them when I dry fire without exception. Yes, it's a bit of a 'belts and suspenders' type of solution, but the cost and complexity is low, and the expense of failure is high.

230RN
April 2, 2012, 03:25 AM
"I don't make a habit of dry-firing rimfires, but at the same time, I don't avoid dropping the hammer on the last round on my .22 autos. This means I dry-fire at least once per magazine."

Most of the time in that situation, you can arrest even an internal hammer's fall by holding the action open a trifle. The hammer then hits the breech block instead of the firing pin, and the breech block is a much stouter hunk of metal.

I do this all the time with my Ruger autos when putting them away or when clearing them --just retract the slide a little bit and pull the trigger. I usually count my shots for some unknown reason, been doing it for decades, and sometimes I miscount and drop the hammer on an empty chamber accidently anyhow. But for clearing a weapon, this method usually works well.

This also works with many bolt rifles, .22s and centerfire. If you pull the trigger and then start lowering the bolt, the striker spring will almost close the bolt for you without causing it to suddenly snap forward and hit its internal stop. Also sometimes works with internal hammer rifles.

Terry, 230RN

makarovnik
April 2, 2012, 04:47 AM
Do not dry fire the kel-tec pistols or you'll be really sorry when you try to remove the frankenbolt that holds the extractor in place and also serves as a firing pin stop.

Dry firing allows the firing pin to slam unopposed into the end of threads of the bolt. The threads get peened over and the bolt can never be removed without damaging its threads and the threads in slide.

But if you must dry fire then I guess it must be done.

P-32
April 2, 2012, 06:08 AM
I don't make it a habit to dry fire my rimfires or CF bolt guns.


Take a 1911, for example. The firing pin extends quite far when there's nothing in there to hit. This compresses the firing pin spring more than when it's actually firing. If you do it a lot, you might end up with a broken firing pin spring sooner than expected. No big deal if you have time on your hands and a replacement. Might be a big deal if it's your only gun and you don't have a spare spring, or if you can't replace it yourself.

When shooting match 45's dry fire was the order of the day. I've not seen a problem. For my own 1911's, I know how to fix them.

mfcmb
April 2, 2012, 06:09 AM
The manual for my Kahr CW9 says it's safe to dry fire. Over a period including around 8,000 live fires and more than 10,000 dry fires (without snap caps) I've had to replace broken strikers twice (which I can do myself).

230RN
April 2, 2012, 01:38 PM
makarovnik said,

Do not dry fire the kel-tec pistols or you'll be really sorry...

Previously noted but worth repeating.

Kel-Tec replaced my PF-9 receiver with a new one with the same serial number, but I sure as heck didn't need the shipping back and forth hassle, and they didn't even send it back with the belt clip that was installed on it.

Their instructions say not to dry-fire the PF-9, but sometimes it happens accidentally. Like when a misfeed occurs and you're not aware of it and you pull the trigger anyhow. Mine misfeeds a lot, which is how I found out about the breakage from dry firing, or otherwise pulling the trigger on an empty chamber.

Terry, 230RN

GoWolfpack
April 2, 2012, 03:08 PM
I'm sorry that you feel that way Terry. I damaged my PF-9 dry firing it but it still functions fine.

Dry firing is usually OK unless the manual specifically prohibits it. Snap caps aren't that cheap and some types wear out.

If you're dry firing thousands of time you're probably training for something; it would be a real shame to wallow out the firing pin hole in your breach face dry firing and have a failure in the middle of whatever you're training for.

Certaindeaf
April 2, 2012, 04:14 PM
.it is ALWAYS raining..
I just turn the light switch on and off while I'm in the fetal position.

pseudonymity
April 2, 2012, 06:50 PM
How about Enfield #4s, #5s, the Spanish FR8 and the Garand or SKS?

I have seen it mentioned that extended dry firing on the SKS can crater the bolt face to some degree which can increase the risk of popped primers during live fire. I am not sure how much is too much, but I would think it would be quite a bit of dry fire practice. If it worries you, you can just pull the bolt and remove the firing pin if you are just dry firing at home for instance.

84B20
April 2, 2012, 08:30 PM
It's obvious none of you have attended Front Sight Training Institute. Every time I read the phrase "dry fire" I cringe. We were taught to use the phrase Dry Practice to get away from the idea of firing the gun. I guess it is a mindset issue. If you just think of it as practice you reinforce the idea of not having live ammo around you when you practice. Less of an opportunity to have a negligent discharge. At least that's the way I interpret it.

EmGeeGeorge
April 2, 2012, 08:34 PM
.22 snap cap alternative

gym
April 2, 2012, 08:36 PM
I expect problems with that pf-9. Having had one of the early ones, it was always something. Too bad the size was great. But too many misfeeds and ejection problems, even after I did get it running right, it failed to fire the 147 grain rounds, which is common on older models.And it did have a warning in the manual about not dry firing it.Mine only fired 115 grain Remington jhp or FMJ. Other than that it was always something. They are the Austin Healys of the gun world.I know some guys swear by them, but it's like women one guy maries her and thinks she's great, and another wonders what the heck he was thinking.

SharkHat
April 2, 2012, 08:39 PM
Some people get entirely too wrapped up in semantics. Changing the name of the practice doesn't impart any more or less safety to it.

Since I rarely talk to myself out loud anymore, I don't announce , "I think I'll do some dry fire practice now." I just clear the firearm and do it.

barstoolguru
April 2, 2012, 08:49 PM
For 12.00 why take a chance cracking the bolt face or fracturing the firing pin

84B20
April 2, 2012, 08:49 PM
You may not verbally announce "Dry Practice" and to be honest I don't always do it myself. The point I was trying to make was that Front Sight teaches that technique to many newbie’s and to them it is necessary to drive home the safe handling of firearms. Maybe those here don't need it but it does no harm to emphasize it once in awhile. IMHO

9mmepiphany
April 2, 2012, 11:14 PM
It's obvious none of you have attended Front Sight Training Institute. Every time I read the phrase "dry fire" I cringe
Attributing a practice to Front Sight doesn't give it additional creditability, when you infer that folks who may not have attended that facility may have missed an opportunity...it is also a bit presumptuousness.

Not attributing it to the training facility that actually originated the use of the term, makes me cringe.

84B20
April 2, 2012, 11:33 PM
Attributing a practice to Front Sight doesn't give it additional creditability, when you infer that folks who may not have attended that facility may have missed an opportunity...it is also a bit presumptuousness.

Not attributing it to the training facility that actually originated the use of the term, makes me cringe.

I don't pretend to presume anything. I was just stating what I have learned after taking several courses at the facility. It was my attempt to make the point that safe handling of firearms begins with the proper mindset.

I may not have been involved in the firearms industry as long as you and don't know the originator of the term so I'll leave it to you to relate it. I don't want anyone else to have to cringe. :)

9mmepiphany
April 2, 2012, 11:52 PM
It's obvious none of you...
Maybe I mis-understood, but when stating something is obvious usually means you are presuming it.

The term comes from Gunsite, was used by Chuck Taylor (who was the head instructor there) who taught it to Ignatius Piazza who used it in his Front Sight program

ny32182
April 3, 2012, 12:04 AM
It is hard to estimate the number of dry fires I do, but have good reason to believe it is a few thousand in a typical month. I am currently shooting an M&P.

Snap caps are expensive, and wear very quickly. As far as what is more expensive, I guarantee I'd wear out the cost of the gun in snap caps long before I'll ever break anything in the gun from dry firing.

Stuff wears when you use it. Not a big deal. If a firing pin or spring pops, replace it and move on. If you actually shoot and practice with the gun, any of these expenses are trivial compared to ammo anyway.

84B20
April 3, 2012, 12:20 AM
Maybe I mis-understood, but when stating something is obvious usually means you are presuming it.

The term comes from Gunsite, was used by Chuck Taylor (who was the head instructor there) who taught it to Ignatius Piazza who used it in his Front Sight program

From all that I have heard and read, Gunsite is a great training facility. The only problem I have with them is the cost, and yes, you get what you pay for in most instances. And I know a lot of people have an issue with the way Piazza markets his facility but they do get a great number of students and that can only be a positive influence on our 2nd Amendment rights. I have a Diamond membership and it cost me much less than one course at Gunsite. I took 3 courses last year, one this year so far and am scheduled for another two courses in a couple of months. I could not afford that many courses at Gunsite. And by the way, the instruction was, in my opinion, excellent.

gym
April 3, 2012, 01:19 PM
In the last 5 to ten years, the popularity of firearms has gotten so great that all kinds of businesses have opened 'around" them. When I got my first gun, there was no one to train you. back in the late 60's and permit in the 1972.
My uncles were all ex-soldiers, in all 4 out of 5 branches. One was a pretty good gunsmith. But there was not such an emphasis on the particulars of shooting. I learned from my dad, "who served in 2 armies, including the Air force here in the US, and the Greek army where his dad had left the states to go back to fight in. They all were hunters except my father, I can't help but feel, "and don't take this the wrong way" that it has become more of a "money making thing" than something that the normal guy who carries for self-defense, needs. I can see it if you shoot competitively or just enjoy it as a vacation with a bunch of likeminded friends. But it seems like sometimes people are convinced that they need more training than the secret service. Having been doing this, "shooting", mainly pistols, many things that I read are over the top for the average guy who somehow is being told he should take this class also. If you work in law enforcement like "Swat" you may, but even special ops don't take some of the courses offered. And so much of it is just common sense, that it sometimes makes me ask myself if some folks have talked themselves into thinking they need this .
I always listen to someone who shows me he can do things that I cannot. But have seen too many so called instructors who talk a good game, but couldn't shoot worth a darn. I shoot to stay alive and also enjoy the sport, not the other way around, I don't live to shoot, But that's just me. When I speak to retired Marine snipers, who did this as a career and taught it in the Marines, they make it very simple. I think that when you over think something, "no matter what it is", you make it more complicated than it needs to be. And fortunately I, just have good eye hand coordination, that is something you can't teach. I have close friends who just can't hit anything, even after sitting and explaining to them what they were doing wrong, and others who "like my wife" picked up my 45 and was able to put all 10 rounds on the paper at 25 feet. She also is good at any eye hand sport or work. I believe anyone can be taught to be better if they "want" to. Many men just refuse to take responsibility for anything that they just don't do well. Like sports for instance, "I have a cramp, this ball is too smooth etc. Please don't take it the wrong way, if you choose to spend your time and money on this advanced training and I spend mine on something else, that's our right "for now", under our current administration, but the necessity of engaging in any sport or interest is entirely up to the individual as to how far the wish to take it, and what they really need vs want. I also think that everyone should have as much time as necessary to learn the basic skills. And if it's your favorite thing to do by all means pursue it, it's just the attitude that you have to learn this method, it's better than what you use, that makes me uncomfortable. I don't care what school you went to, can you hold your own when you are confronted by several armed men who mean you harm, or did all the training courses go out the window? By the way, I usually only dry fire my own weapons, upon reassembly, to make sure the firing pin works as it should. I use a #2 or 3 pencil with a new eraser head on it, and if it flies out of the barrel, I know everything is where it is supposed to be. I have been doing that for 30 years when I read it some ware. and it is a great way to make sure your gun is more than likely going to fire.
Education can never hurt, but just how much do you need vs practice.I agree that punching holes in paper from a seated or standing position, is for the most part a waste of time and money, and being able to simulate a real world situation is far better.Unfortunatlly there arent too many places in cities that you can do the right drills.

84B20
April 3, 2012, 01:58 PM
In the last 5 to ten years, the popularity of firearms has gotten so great that all kinds of businesses have opened 'around" them. When I got my first gun, there was no one to train you. back in the late 60's and permit in the 1972.
My uncles were all ex-soldiers, in all 4 out of 5 branches. One was a pretty good gunsmith. But there was not such an emphasis on the particulars of shooting. I learned from my dad, "who served in 2 armies, including the Air force here in the US, and the Greek army where his dad had left the states to go back to fight in. They all were hunters except my father, I can't help but feel, "and don't take this the wrong way" that it has become more of a "money making thing" than something that the normal guy who carries for self-defense, needs. I can see it if you shoot competitively or just enjoy it as a vacation with a bunch of likeminded friends. But it seems like sometimes people are convinced that they need more training than the secret service. Having been doing this, "shooting", mainly pistols, many things that I read are over the top for the average guy who somehow is being told he should take this class also. If you work in law enforcement like "Swat" you may, but even special ops don't take some of the courses offered. And so much of it is just common sense, that it sometimes makes me ask myself if some folks have talked themselves into thinking they need this .
I always listen to someone who shows me he can do things that I cannot. But have seen too many so called instructors who talk a good game, but couldn't shoot worth a darn. I shoot to stay alive and also enjoy the sport, not the other way around, I don't live to shoot, But that's just me. When I speak to retired Marine snipers, who did this as a career and taught it in the Marines, they make it very simple. I think that when you over think something, "no matter what it is", you make it more complicated than it needs to be. And fortunately I, just have good eye hand coordination, that is something you can't teach. I have close friends who just can't hit anything, even after sitting and explaining to them what they were doing wrong, and others who "like my wife" picked up my 45 and was able to put all 10 rounds on the paper at 25 feet. She also is good at any eye hand sport or work. I believe anyone can be taught to be better if they "want" to. Many men just refuse to take responsibility for anything that they just don't do well. Like sports for instance, "I have a cramp, this ball is too smooth etc. Please don't take it the wrong way, if you choose to spend your time and money on this advanced training and I spend mine on something else, that's our right "for now", under our current administration, but the necessity of engaging in any sport or interest is entirely up to the individual as to how far the wish to take it, and what they really need vs want. I also think that everyone should have as much time as necessary to learn the basic skills. And if it's your favorite thing to do by all means pursue it, it's just the attitude that you have to learn this method, it's better than what you use, that makes me uncomfortable. I don't care what school you went to, can you hold your own when you are confronted by several armed men who mean you harm, or did all the training courses go out the window? By the way, I usually only dry fire my own weapons, upon reassembly, to make sure the firing pin works as it should. I use a #2 or 3 pencil with a new eraser head on it, and if it flies out of the barrel, I know everything is where it is supposed to be. I have been doing that for 30 years when I read it some ware. and it is a great way to make sure your gun is more than likely going to fire.
Education can never hurt, but just how much do you need vs practice.I agree that punching holes in paper from a seated or standing position, is for the most part a waste of time and money, and being able to simulate a real world situation is far better.Unfortunatlly there arent too many places in cities that you can do the right drills.

Not to be disrespectful, but you obviously have no idea of the quality of training that can be had at some of the schools available and how it can benefit the average person. I can only relate what I experienced at Front Sight. I wasn't going to publish this on a forum but after reading your post I feel I probably should. And, incidentally, the range masters have always demonstrated their abilities at all of the courses I attended.

The evening of Friday, December 30, 2011, my wife and I had attended a book signing and lecture by John R. Lott, Jr., the author of More Guns Less Crime at a bookstore in Santa Fe, New Mexico. After the lecture, we were to meet some friends at a local restaurant for dinner. We had parked in a downtown parking lot and as we crossed the street we were approached by two men, one I remember had a hooded sweatshirt. They had been walking in the street next to the parked cars and began to separate and one of them started to walk behind us. My wife had been walking a couple of feet behind me as we had learned to do so as not to make us a better target. I was in my normal mental awareness state of yellow so I was immediately aware of these two individuals. As the one who had been walking towards me started to talk, I immediately put up both of my hands and shouted back off! It seemed to surprise him and he instantly changed direction, walked away and said “Ok, brother.” I feel very lucky that all turned out well, without injury to anyone, other than to my nerves. Now, I don’t know for sure that they were planning on anything but I feel thanks to my quick action I never have to know.

I credit my training at Front Sight for the training my wife and I received that helped keep us in the right frame of mind as well as the actions I took to avoid a serious incident.

I did make three mistakes that evening, though. One, we should not have walked across the street in the middle of the block, instead go to the corner and cross. Two, I should have had my flashlight in my hand until we had reached our car and three, I should have immediately called the police to report the incident. The first one reporting the event would most likely believed by the police. I can imagine that if these two had been just innocent individuals or ones that had no police record and had decided to call the police and say I had been brandishing a weapon, which by the way I never had to do, I could have been is some trouble. Anyway, all turned out well and I now have a bit more experience to add to the training I have received at Front Sight.

By the way I sent this experience to NRA's American Rifleman for their Armed Citizen column. I don't know if it will be published but it could be a lesson in how to avoid such an incident.

9mmepiphany
April 3, 2012, 02:15 PM
And by the way, the instruction was, in my opinion, excellent.
I don't want to take this thread too far off track...hopefully it hasn't gone too far already...but,

The obvious question would be, what other training have you completed, that you are comparing this against?

84B20
April 3, 2012, 02:35 PM
I don't want to take this thread too far off track...hopefully it hasn't gone too far already...but,

The obvious question would be, what other training have you completed, that you are comparing this against?

I'm not trying to compare it to any other training institutions. I am just trying to relate my experience and show how some professional training can benefit anyone that carries or even just owns a gun for home protection. The only other training that I received was in the Army and CCW training, which sometimes had been barely adequate and other times not so.

I am planning on additional training from others like Rob Pincus, Gabe Suarez and John Farnam in the future though.

Robbins290
April 3, 2012, 03:11 PM
I think bolt action rifles and some rimfires cant be dry fired. I had dry fire my 22 thousands of times. And never noticed any wear.

Certaindeaf
April 3, 2012, 03:25 PM
Not to be disrespectful, but you obviously have no idea of the quality of training that can be had at some of the schools available and how it can benefit the average person. I can only relate what I experienced at Front Sight. I wasn't going to publish this on a forum but after reading your post I feel I probably should. And, incidentally, the range masters have always demonstrated their abilities at all of the courses I attended.

The evening of Friday, December 30, 2011, my wife and I had attended a book signing and lecture by John R. Lott, Jr., the author of More Guns Less Crime at a bookstore in Santa Fe, New Mexico. After the lecture, we were to meet some friends at a local restaurant for dinner. We had parked in a downtown parking lot and as we crossed the street we were approached by two men, one I remember had a hooded sweatshirt. They had been walking in the street next to the parked cars and began to separate and one of them started to walk behind us. My wife had been walking a couple of feet behind me as we had learned to do so as not to make us a better target. I was in my normal mental awareness state of yellow so I was immediately aware of these two individuals. As the one who had been walking towards me started to talk, I immediately put up both of my hands and shouted back off! It seemed to surprise him and he instantly changed direction, walked away and said “Ok, brother.” I feel very lucky that all turned out well, without injury to anyone, other than to my nerves. Now, I don’t know for sure that they were planning on anything but I feel thanks to my quick action I never have to know.

I credit my training at Front Sight for the training my wife and I received that helped keep us in the right frame of mind as well as the actions I took to avoid a serious incident.

I did make three mistakes that evening, though. One, we should not have walked across the street in the middle of the block, instead go to the corner and cross. Two, I should have had my flashlight in my hand until we had reached our car and three, I should have immediately called the police to report the incident. The first one reporting the event would most likely believed by the police. I can imagine that if these two had been just innocent individuals or ones that had no police record and had decided to call the police and say I had been brandishing a weapon, which by the way I never had to do, I could have been is some trouble. Anyway, all turned out well and I now have a bit more experience to add to the training I have received at Front Sight.

By the way I sent this experience to NRA's American Rifleman for their Armed Citizen column. I don't know if it will be published but it could be a lesson in how to avoid such an incident.
What on earth does that have to do with dry firing? And who are you to say that someone has no idea? Sounds quite presumptuous of you.

84B20
April 3, 2012, 03:35 PM
What on earth does that have to do with dry firing? And who are you to say that someone has no idea? Sounds quite presumptuous of you.

This thread is getting dangerously close to being closed. The only point I was trying to make was that dry practice (aka dry firing) is an important part of self defense and that it is a mindset that helps to prevent having live ammo around while practicing. I only was using the term I learned at Front Sight suggesting they had in my estimation great training, not to say other institutions weren't as good.

gym
April 3, 2012, 03:36 PM
My training was mostlly from my uncle Mike, a Marine DI, and later became Head of operations for a major airline. Also a Professional Hunter who worked for my father, "we owned land in Fleishmans NY with a Hotel, and this man lived near the property and took me under his wing pre teen years. After I obtained my NYC carry, I joined a pistol club in Roslyn LI, Michael Britt, "who was one of those guys I mentioned" had a lot of great stories, but would not shoot with the club. He offered a combat course and several other courses centered around his selling you another gun. I did geta chance to shoot against the NYPD pistol team, and did quite well, and used the FBI range, I think it was Fishkill, "this is 35 years ago, the Naussau county range was the most common for me, even though it was a trip from Queens. Then again my uncle was treasurer of the Glen Cove pistol and rifle club, he was a nationally ranked shooter and competed in 22 caliber pistol and rifle, along with 45 caliber pistol and skeet and trap. My uncles were all very into guns, they dropped out of a plane in Alaska for Polar bear, where the plane came back a week later and you were on your own. Canada for Moose,with a guide, and just about everything in between. I learned early on that I didn't enjoy killing animals. So for me it was target shooting, I can remember my uncle bringing me to his range the first time, and telling the guys, "old timers", watch this nephew of mine shoot. I just happened to be a good shot from jump street, I guess that's why I took to it like I did. But without going into the past too much, I have mentioned the home invasion, and several gun related incidents I was in over a 40 year span, and my gun saved my life more than once. But it wasn't what anyone taught me that saved me, it was just good old fasioned common sense. And the ability to control my nerves better than most, and being aware of my surroundings. I always said little things bother me more than big ones do. I am a firm believer that you can do the same thing 3 times in a row, and have 3 different outcomes. People all react different. What worked with one doesn't work with another, but we got way off topic, whatever works for you.

230RN
April 3, 2012, 03:39 PM
GoWolfpack:

I'm sorry that you feel that way Terry. I damaged my PF-9 dry firing it but it still functions fine.

Oh, I edited out a bunch of evilnastysnottysinful remarks about mine, since this is The High Road. I once referred to it as a two-shot derringer with a convenient detachable compartment for extra ammo. Do you have the later model with the extended feed ramp, or the older one with the short ramp?

http://arviel.loesch.org/keltecbbls.jpg



gym:

I expect problems with that pf-9. Having had one of the early ones, it was always something. Too bad the size was great. But too many misfeeds and ejection problems, even after I did get it running right, it failed to fire the 147 grain rounds, which is common on older models.And it did have a warning in the manual about not dry firing it.Mine only fired 115 grain Remington jhp or FMJ. Other than that it was always something. They are the Austin Healys of the gun world.I know some guys swear by them, but it's like women one guy maries her and thinks she's great, and another wonders what the heck he was thinking.

That about sums up my experience, too, except I never used the 147 gr loads, just the two lighter ones. They fluffed and buffed it while they had it, and the turnaround time on it was excellent, but it didn't seem to help. I will admit that the last time I brought it to the range, it made it through a whole magazine without a stoppage, so we'll see. But I still won't trust it for a carry gun until it makes it through, say 100 rounds with both magazines.



Anyhow, enough PF-9 bashing, let's go back to dry firing...

EmGeeGeorge:

I've read about the wall anchors, but there's a generic problem with plastic "dummies." in that they aren't very durable. Neither are the clipped-off empty .22 cases, but at least they're free and you probably have some lying around anyhow. (Does the EmGee mean "machine gun?" :D )

A while ago Spdracr39 asked:

Question, Instead of using those ridiculously expensive plastic cartridges could you just use a fired round? I suppose that would be a little dangerous but you could color it with a sharpie or something to mark it.
I reload, so I make dummies by just sizing and reloading without powder and primer. Then I clean out the primer pocket thoroughly and pack it with RTV silicone rubber to cushion the firing pin. (I strike off the excess RTV, of course.) I magic-marker these and get real paranoid about making sure I have no live ammo in the room when I dry fire. Reeeeal paranoid. And yes, I announce aloud to myself: "I am dry-fire practicing now," and when done, "I am done dry-firing now and the gun is hot." Go ahead, laugh. I don't care what you do, but I do that little ritual to actively separate the two modes.

The advantage of using a bulleted inert round is that because of the bullet's weight and shape, you can also use them to check cycling and feeding.

Terry, 230RN

barstoolguru
April 4, 2012, 11:57 AM
all due respect to people that say they don't need to buffer the firing pin when pulling the trigger but this is why I don't buy used guns.

Because you can never tell what abuse they have been through before you get them; internal damage is hard to see

Franco2shoot
April 4, 2012, 12:50 PM
Guys,
I'm no expert, and certainly do NOT work for A-ZOOM, but all my firearms have SEVERAL snap caps... almost exclusively from A-ZOOM since I really like their products. Come-on, you spent a good bit of money for that weapon, why not spill the extra four bucks or so for a quality snapcappers?

KKKKFL

ny32182
April 4, 2012, 11:29 PM
Because if you wanted to use them all the time and dryfire a lot, it would become 4 bucks a week when you end up with an aluminum colored jellybean by Friday.

TurtlePhish
April 5, 2012, 02:55 PM
Because if you wanted to use them all the time and dryfire a lot, it would become 4 bucks a week when you end up with an aluminum colored jellybean by Friday.


+1

Especially rimfires.

dampoo
April 5, 2012, 05:05 PM
On this site or another a person gave great advice on dry firing rimfires. He used number 6 wall anchor plugs in his chambers. I have tried them and they work great and they are cheap, approximately $0.10 each.

Loosedhorse
April 5, 2012, 05:11 PM
Great advice. ^

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that in some old centerfire pistols (Colt 1908 .25 acp, for example), dry fire is THE single biggest cause of breaking the firing pin--and those are getting hard to replace!

I have been told that revolvers with frame-retained firing pins (instead of hammer-mounted) are prone to FP breakage with dry-fire. Even top makes, like Freedom Arms (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=608806).

barstoolguru
April 5, 2012, 05:12 PM
as far a dry firing a.22 goes I just bought a new firing pin for my buckmark and it was 2.00. mine broke in half and the man said they never sell them; it was the first time he has ever heard someone breaking one in half

Capybara
April 5, 2012, 07:26 PM
Interestingly, my new Ruger 10/22 says it is okay to dry fire in the manual. I need to check my SR22 pistol manual, not sure about it.

My Vector Uzi manual specifically says that it is fine to dry fire it.

gym
April 5, 2012, 10:56 PM
I stii don't dry fire my guns very often. It's a mechanical device, and it was designed to hit a primer when the hammer falls. I don't see how the lack of "something", being there to absorb the shock can be ok if done repetedlly. It may work for a while, but I don't feel comfortable with doing this thousands of times. You are just waiting for a malfunction to occur.Like I said when I clean my guns, I dry fire them into an erasor of a #2 pencil to make sure the firing pin is functioning, and I have been doing this for 30 years. Other than that, an Occasional dry fire like with glocks, because it is necessary. But for me that's it. I have seen to many things break that weren't supposed to. It is a hardened piece of metal coming to a sudden stop with nothing to absorb the shock, call me old fashioned, I know at least my first shot is going to fire, and that I don't find out the hard way that the firing pin snapped off.

3Putt
April 7, 2012, 10:36 AM
From page 18 of the Ruger SR22 manual.

DRY FIRING

The RUGER® SR22 TM PISTOLS can be dry- fired without damage to the firing pin or other components as long as the magazine is inserted.

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