Mini-suppressors... still loud, just not hearing damage loud

Does anyone make "mini" suppressors? I'm thinking something that is very compact in size and reduces the ear shattering 160 dB 9mm shot to something in the range of 140 dB which is the universal impulse threshold limit.


EDITED THIS OUT: 115 dB which is on the bottom end of the threshold of pain.

The goal is to be as small as possible while still maintaining enough suppressive effect that ear muffs are somewhat optional... but still a good idea.


If the answer to this question is no... Then does anyone know how to calculate suppressor size vs decibel reduction? I'm curious how large a suppressor would need to be.

EDIT: After learning about form 1 and researching this more this is what I would build.


For 9mm something that does 8 - 20 dB in reduction would be ideal. My reasons are outlined below.

Size
Small to prevent fatigue after a full day of plinking & target shooting at the range.

Durability
No short term wipes, just metal baffles. It should be durable enough to handle a full day of plinking.

Keeping the woman happy
.22 LR is produces a 152 dB shock wave. The girlfriend can handle that. That's 8 dB in reduction to make the girlfriend happy.

Meeting NIOSH specs
To make NIOSH / CDC hearing loss center happy I'm guesstimating from their exposure charts that i need to get it down to 140 dB. NIOSH allows between 22 and 27 seconds of exposure for those levels if you are wearing ear muffs. That's a lot of range time.... if you are shooting alone. Not sure sure how much that is if you are shooting with others.

To put that in perspective, the Osprey hits 125 dB dry w/ 9mm. That's overkill for my purposes. 35 dB is a LOT more than I need.

MATH
=============
As per NIOSH protocol, assuming 75% efficiency with my 33 NRR Pro-Ears which is 24.75 dB of protection.


152 dB for .22 LR - 24.75 dB = 127.25 dB that hits your ear drum. According to NIOSH you can handle about 1 second of that.

If we bring the crack down to 140 db - 24.75 dB = 115.25 that hits the ear drum. NIOSH allows between 22 and 27 seconds.

Bringing a 9mm down to 115dB is something even a full-size suppressor would be hard-pressed to accomplish. That's a LOT of reduction. A mini-suppressor like you speak of would probably only get down to 140-145.

That shows how much I know about the topic.

Does anyone make mini-suppressors?

Not that I've heard of. It's always possible they exist, though, and if you can't buy one there's always Form 1.

if you can't buy one there's always Form 1.

Oh wow didn't know about form 1.

Just found this link:
http://www.cncguns.com/projects/22silencer.html

If I can't find one, I think I might build one. Would be nice to know a little more about the physics of things so I calculate sizes. I guess I could add and reduce baffles in a tube until I get where I want to.

EDIT: Looks like construction on the fly is out of the question (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1198063):

It is important to remember that you can not start to make parts until the ATF form 1 is returned approved with the canceled $200 tax stamp attached. Once the silencer is made, parts can not be replaced, the bore changed or the length increased by the person it is registered to, unless another $200 tax is paid or it is sent to an SOT class 2 for repairs. It is also illegal to have replacement parts on hand or to change out worn parts except for wipes; the hard rubber disks used in some designs. There are letters from the ATF on the Subguns website that address some of these problems and the ATF also has a silencer FAQ.

Yeah, you can't modify after it's done, so it's best to get it right the first time. Measure twice, cut once. Design something that'll work well, and base it on existing designs.

Thompson Machine makes the Posiden. It's a micro suppressor that uses wipes. They're tiny in comparison to most. You do need to replace wipes, but they're pretty dinky. From what I understand, they're also pretty quiet.
LINK HERE (http://www.thompsonmachine.net/?page_id=99).
http://www.thompsonmachine.net/img/sup/1918.jpg

There are a couple micro suppressors on the market but they are all meant to be shot "wet". I personally can't stand wet cans because you get a black liquid shower every time you shoot through them.

I wonder how long wipes last. That certainly looks like a top contender.

What I'm looking for is a durable range / practice suppressor. Something durable enough that can be abused (500 rounds per range visit) and small enough that's it's not going to slow me down when I'm plinking at multiple steel targets. The poseidon might meet the size criteria but not sure about durability.

Sound wise, I wonder how small you can make it to be just low enough that i won't have to double up on muffs & plugs to meet CDC / NIOSH safety requirements. Being able to use it in an indoor emergency home defense situation is a bonus. Not having the girlfriend cringe at the range every time I pull the trigger would be nice as well.

In all honesty this would be a whole new category of suppressors. Just enough to take the edge off.

Wipes don't last all that long, but the ATF allows you to replace them if you follow a special procedure; you need to cut the old wipes neatly in half (I think) and then you can make new wipes that are identical to the old ones. You aren't allowed to keep extras and can only make new ones after the old ones are destroyed. Also, be warned that this is information I read some time ago and the procedure/rules may have changed since then.

Then does anyone know how to calculate suppressor size vs decibel reduction?
No there is no formula and no way to quantify all the variables of baffle design possibilities. In general, the more volume the more suppression, but that's not always the case.

Ok, sorry if I'm talking in circles, I'm figuring this out as I go. If I build my own with a form 1. This is what it would look like.

For 9mm something that does 8 - 20 dB in reduction would be ideal. My reasons are outlined below.

Keeping the woman happy
.22 LR is produces a 152 dB shock wave. The girlfriend can handle that. That's 8 dB in reduction from 9mm's 160dB to make the girlfriend happy.

Meeting NIOSH specs
To make NIOSH / CDC hearing loss center happy I'm guesstimating from their exposure charts that i need to get it down to 140 dB. NIOSH allows between 22 and 27 seconds of exposure for those levels if you are wearing ear muffs. That's a lot of range time.... if you are shooting alone. Not sure sure how much that is if you are shooting with others.

To put that in perspective, the Osprey hits 125 dB dry w/ 9mm. That's overkill for my purposes. 35 dB is a LOT more than I need.

MATH
=============
As per NIOSH protocol, assuming 75% efficiency with my 33 NRR Pro-Ears which is 24.75 dB of protection.


152 dB for .22 LR - 24.75 dB = 127.25 dB that hits your ear drum. According to NIOSH you can handle about 1 second of that.

If we bring the crack down to 140 db - 24.75 dB = 115.25 that hits the ear drum. NIOSH allows between 22 and 27 seconds.

look at delta p designs' compact brevis

look at delta p designs' compact brevis

Those are pretty cool. 133 dB and only 3.8 inches!

Nothing for pistols though. :-(

Browning with an older AAC "Scorpion". Does what the OP describes. 1"OD x4"L. It reportedly has an average 28dB reduction when wet packed. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06249.jpg

Dude, nice grips. Nice gun.

[QUOTE]What I'm looking for is a durable range / practice suppressor. Something durable enough that can be abused (500 rounds per range visit) and small enough that's it's not going to slow me down when I'm plinking at multiple steel targets. The poseidon might meet the size criteria but not sure about durability.

The Poseidon is not a hard use can. You will have a significant degradation in suppression MUCH sooner than 500 rounds. Sorry no free lunch. The Poseidon is kind of a nitch suppressor but it is very cool and very small. I don't know where exactly it falls in terms of suppression when the wipes are ready to be replaced. It still has a baffle stack in it so I imagine it will do something. I'd be interested to know what.

Video of the Poseidon's insides: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_CzRwwOjrM

DeGroat made some mini cans at one point. I'm not sure if he still does.

The DeGroat NANO. Like the Poseidon, it's a wet and wiped can. Those types of cans are not made for long term range and/or combat shooting. They are for discreet shots. 1-2 mags tops before adding more ablative medium (water, gel, etc) and changing out the wipes.

You need a large can if you want to run 500 rounds through it. I have an AAC Eco-9 that I use.

It's also going to be impossible to change wipes and water out of the mini can after about 50 rounds. Cans get up to a couple hundred degrees with continuous shooting; it'll be too hot to unscrew to clean.

Wipes don't last all that long, but the ATF allows you to replace them if you follow a special procedure; you need to cut the old wipes neatly in half (I think) and then you can make new wipes that are identical to the old ones. You aren't allowed to keep extras and can only make new ones after the old ones are destroyed. Also, be warned that this is information I read some time ago and the procedure/rules may have changed since then.

Never heard this before ever. The only thing the BATFE cares about is the housing of the baffles. There are many silencers out there where you can replace the baffles and they are easily ordered from the companies that make the silencers.

Sorry, you got your facts wrong on the replaceable baffles.

I've seen a few ATF letters saying that it is ok to replace wipes as they are designed to be a consumable part of the suppressor. Again, you have to follow the process above about destroying the old ones before making the new ones, and not having extras laying around.

As far as replaceable baffles go, you cannot order replacements (or I guess you could but they would still be subject to registration and tax for each baffle you buy). But I do believe that as long as the serialized part of the can (usually the outer tube) is not damaged, you can send it back to the manufacturer and have the baffle replaced by them without having to go through a new round of purchase, tax, and registration.

Wipes don't last all that long, but the ATF allows you to replace them if you follow a special procedure; you need to cut the old wipes neatly in half (I think) and then you can make new wipes that are identical to the old ones. You aren't allowed to keep extras and can only make new ones after the old ones are destroyed. Also, be warned that this is information I read some time ago and the procedure/rules may have changed since then.

Would have you a link for this? I'd like to read up on it. Thanks. :)

To put that in perspective, the Osprey hits 125 dB dry w/ 9mm. That's overkill for my purposes. 35 dB is a LOT more than I need.

When it comes to suppressors there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to noise reduction.

What you are describing there is an increase in the cool factor. =D

Nevermind, disregard my previous statement on wipes. The ATF stopped considering individual wipes NFA items a while ago.

Nevermind, disregard my previous statement on wipes. The ATF stopped considering individual wipes NFA items a while ago.

Thanx. Have a link to the ruling? Just wonder'n. :)

I was Google-fu-ing. I'll see if I can dig it up after school.

Thanks. :)

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter66.txt
Letter that said wipes were not NFA

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/012001/Mac10History.htm
The section on the silencer partway down the page talks about the ATF ruling on parts and their regulation, etc.

Muy excellente.

Thanx for the links.

Heh, looks like we've got two of these for the 5.56 rifles. THat's the good news. None for 9mm pistols though. :-(

Delta P BREVIS 5.56 Compact Suppressor (http://www.deltapdesign.com/suppressors/brevis-5-56-Compact-suppressor) @ Overall length: 3.8 in

and

advanced-armament mini4: (http://www.advanced-armament.com/product.aspx?pid=866)


The Mini4 is the result of a request for an ultra-compact can for 5.56mm rifles and carbines. The Mini4 features the same fully welded all-Inconel® guts as our M4-2000. With an overall weight of 13 ounces and adding less than 3 inches to the overall length of the host weapon, it is easy to disregard the Mini4 until the shooting starts. Despite its compact dimensions, the Mini4 reduces the muzzle signature below the 140 decibel threshold at the shooter’s ear and dramatically reduces visible flash.

Wow, those are tiny. It's pretty amazing that people have managed to get that kind of reduction with that size.

sure-fire has had one for a while too- only 5.56 though

http://www.surefire.com/mini-suppressor.html

Contact Thompson Machine. He can probably make what you want.

Thanks ISO1600,

Sure Fire seems to be on top of this kind of stuff. As you said it's not 9mm but the MICRO is exactly the kind of product I'm looking for. It adds only 1.75 inches to the length of the rifle! Anyone know what the inside of this thing looks like?

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3776/surefireshortyandmicro1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/19/surefireshortyandmicro1.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


http://www.skarms.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=73

DECIBEL CHART OF SUREFIRE SUPPRESSORS
Barrel & Firearm-----MICRO ----- MINI ----- FA556-212 ----- FA556SA
20.0 inch M16A4---- 137 ----- ----- 137 ----- 133 ---------- 133
16.0 inch MRP------139 ---------- 137----- 135---------- 135
14.5 inch M4 -------141---------- 138----- 135---------- 135
10.5 inch CQBR-----148---------- 141----- 137---------- 137


MICRO™
The MICRO sound suppressor was developed specifically for missions where minimal weight and length added to a firearm are critical, while discernible sound, flash, and dust signature suppression is still necessary. Adding only 1.75 inches to a weapon's length, and weighing only 12 ounces, MICRO optimizes portability, stowability, and maneuverability for your AR-15, M4, M16, C8 SFW, or other rifle. For firearms with barrels 14.5 inches or longer, using standard M855 ammunition, the MICRO reduces the average maximum sound pressure level below the OSHA 140-decibel safe level. Note: The sound, flash, and dust signature suppression from MICRO are perceptible but not as significant as larger (but still compact) 5.56 mm SureFire Fast-Attach suppressors.


All SureFire Fast-Attach® sound suppressors provide crucial tactical benefits—they can help protect shooter and team members against both permanent and temporary hearing loss, enhancing situational awareness and communication; reduce sound signature, concealing shooter's position; reduce muzzle flash and dust signatures, concealing shooter's position while preserving dark-adapted vision; reduce recoil, improving bullet impact observation and allowing faster follow-up shots.

Features

Minimal length and weight added to your firearm
Perceptible sound attenuation
Rock-solid attachment in seconds without tools
Minimal and consistent zero shift regardless of number of attach/detach cycles
Redundant-welded subcomponents eliminate parts loosening
Machined from heat-treated stainless steel, finished in a tough, corrosion-resistant coating
Extremely resistant to heat and gas/particle erosion due to special alloy construction
No permanent modifications required for attachment to most M16/AR15 type weapons