Doctor visit today


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medalguy
April 2, 2012, 05:27 PM
I went to a new internist today, having to change doctors after a number of years with the same one. Anyway, he is a member of a large group practice, and there were about ten pages of paperwork to fill out before seeing the doc. One of the pages had a lot of questions regarding home stability, are you married, do you feel safe at home all of the time, that sort of stuff.

I'm certainly strongly against domestic violence, but when I came to a question asking whether we had firearms in the house, I paused, considering how to answer this particular question. Should I write in "Of course, doesn't everyone" or something else? I finally wrote "MYOB" in the space and turned in my medical history, waiting to see the doctor.

When I finally got in the exam room and the doc walked in, he seemed pleasant enough. Sitting across from me, he started looking at my history. When he came to the fourth page, the magic one, I watched his eyes go down to that particular question. He quickly smiled and looked at me and replied "I don't own the practice, I just work here. Don't blame you a bit."

I think I'm going to like this new doctor. He served in the Navy by the way.

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OTR
April 2, 2012, 06:00 PM
1984???
I would have left it blank and any others that did not pertain directly to my health. Why does anyone, certainly your MD, need to know if you have a firearm?

Plan2Live
April 2, 2012, 06:41 PM
On a recent visit, my Primary Care Physician and I spent a good 5 minutes doing nothing but dicussing the merits of .308 verses 30.06. Yeah, he's a keeper.

Twmaster
April 2, 2012, 06:57 PM
I think my doctor uses the same form. I left that answer blank when I filled out the form in February.

Loosedhorse
April 2, 2012, 09:31 PM
MYOBDon't blame you a bitMy goodness, it sounds like...America! Good for you; good for you both.

gpr
April 2, 2012, 09:38 PM
i left mine blank too.....i can't wait 'till he bumps into the keltec in my front pocket...gary

4v50 Gary
April 2, 2012, 09:45 PM
Good doc.

Hoppes Love Potion
April 2, 2012, 09:53 PM
You are 100 times more likely to be killed by a doctor than by a firearm.

bikerdoc
April 2, 2012, 09:56 PM
On Recent annual for the grandaugter same form left blank.
In the exam room the female NP asked a 6 yr old. Any guns in your house? Her answer - G-pa was a soldier and a policeman, and my daddy is fighting the bad guys. Im gonna be policeman and a Ranger when I grow up. Seems the NP was a reservist who did a tour in 09. Grandaughter got 2 lollypops, and I got a hug!

spazzymcgee
April 2, 2012, 10:03 PM
I recently learned in my AP US Government class that out of all occupations, Doctors have the most Liberal views, right in front of teachers. My teacher laughed at the idea of having a "Hippy Colleague". When I stayed after school to make up a test, we discussed why he liked his Romanian WASR, and why I hated mine.

whalerman
April 2, 2012, 10:06 PM
Well, those are cute stories and I'm glad everything turned out warm and fuzzy. But lots of times things won't. What are we going to do then? This is getting foolish. I wouldn't respond to any of it.

FMF Doc
April 2, 2012, 10:11 PM
I was due for an annual physical anyways when my Primary Care Physician changed, so I went in to meet him and get my physical for my job taken care of all in one stop. There is no law against carrying in a medical facility, and nothing was posted, so as usual,
I had my LC9 concealed on me. When I met my doctor, he came in to the room, intorduced himself and shook my hand. He took off his white lab coat, hung it on the back of the door, rolled up his sleeves and sat down with all my paper work. Right there, on his hip, infront of God and Earth, was a Springfiled TRP in a beautiful sharkskin 3 slot holster. After complimenting him on both gun and holster we got to talking. In addition to good taste in guns, turns out we are both navy boys too!

svtruth
April 3, 2012, 12:52 PM
Bikerdoc:
The American Academy of Pediatrics did, once upon a time, come out with a position against guns in the home. There was no scientific or medical back up, they just did it. Don't know if it was retracted.

allaroundhunter
April 3, 2012, 01:00 PM
Back when I had to do my yearly checkups with my parents and little brother tagging along the pediatrician (quite the liberal woman) asked my little brother the same question (probably because my father had left it blank).

My (9y/o) brother's response? "Yes, and they are locked but I know how to use them. If you want to have a safe house you should too."

This was the first time that I had seen our pediatrician speechless or fail to make a comeback about how our parents were not up to par with modern safety measures (we were not forced to ride in a booster seat until we were 5' tall either...).

Ranger30-06
April 3, 2012, 01:02 PM
You are 100 times more likely to be killed by a doctor than by a firearm.
900x, actually vvvvv :D

ATLDave
April 3, 2012, 01:09 PM
Some doctors (particularly family practicioners) just want to remind you to store them locked up and/or unloaded so that little kids don't get them.

Loosedhorse
April 3, 2012, 01:51 PM
900x, actually vvvvv :DHey, I get it. Humor.

But we should probably get some facts right from time to time. This study (http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/286/4/415.full) suggests that "fatal medical error" (if we define that as killing a patient who was not already at the end of life--an expected remaining lifespan of less than 90 days) is over-reported by about 600-fold using "standard" error-detection techniques. And this one (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12486987) reports that 13.4% of "medical errors" are actually "physician errors."

So, next time you see one of those "fatal doctor mistakes each year" figures, divide it by about 4500 to be in the ballpark. Still too high, sure--but it really cuts into the firearms comparison.

;)

brboyer
April 3, 2012, 02:04 PM
Florida prohibits it. ;)

Paraphrasing the statute:
A health care practitioner or a health care facility shall respect a patient’s right to privacy and should refrain from making a written inquiry or asking questions concerning the ownership of a firearm or ammunition by the patient or by a family member of the patient, or the presence of a firearm in a private home or other domicile of the patient or a family member of the patient.
Notwithstanding this provision, a health care practitioner or health care facility that in good faith believes that this information is relevant to the patient’s medical care or safety, or the safety of others, may make such a verbal or written inquiry.


Violations constitute grounds for disciplinary action.
So blanket questionnaires are prohibited.

writerinmo
April 3, 2012, 02:26 PM
my wife has surgery scheduled for the 23rd to replace two discs in her neck and add a 'supportive device'. The reason she has to have this done is that a couple of years ago she suffered a workplace injury, the doc's did an xray and pronounced it a "strain". It never got any better, they insisted that she was "fine" and eventually she blew up at them and went to see her private doc. He didn't want to get involved since it was workman's comp and just kept on medicating her. I finally went off on him about fixing things instead of just prescribing more crap for her. He referred her to a "Pain management" center. They did nothing for her other than more meds.

I went in search of an "older" doc who would actually DO something, lucked out and found this old boy in a small town near here. He looked over her history and asked where the MRI results were...she handed them to him, told him the last doc never looked at them. He took a look, went out, about 10 minutes later came in with a paper. "You have an appointment with this neurologist on Tuesday (today) BE THERE!"
She just called me a bit ago, to let me know they have the surgery scheduled for the 23rd which was the first available.

I mentioned something about their form not having the firearm question on it, he said "Son, this is Missouri...isn't it required?"

Something tells me we are gonna stick with this office...lol

Loosedhorse
April 3, 2012, 02:38 PM
Florida prohibits it.Not at the moment; likely not ever. A FL judge blocked the law (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Firearmorder.pdf) in September. I believe such an injunction usually means that the judge expects the law to fail in later proceedings:Because I find that Plaintiffs are likely to succeed on their facial challenge to the law, I need not reach their other constitutional challenges.

brboyer
April 3, 2012, 05:02 PM
Not at the moment; likely not ever. A FL judge blocked the law (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Firearmorder.pdf) in September. I believe such an injunction usually means that the judge expects the law to fail in later proceedings:
Thanks for the link.
That's why I missed it, it was a Federal Court, I only looked at Florida Courts.

CoRoMo
April 3, 2012, 05:14 PM
I finally wrote "MYOB" in the space...
Crap. You gave away the answer. Now they know.

thorazine
April 3, 2012, 06:49 PM
I was surprised to find a bunch of hand gun magazines in the waiting room for one of my local doctors.

Especially because he works for a large health group organization.



Fortunately no such questions on any forms to date.

Ed N.
April 3, 2012, 07:24 PM
Not at the moment; likely not ever. A FL judge blocked the law (http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Firearmorder.pdf) in September. I believe such an injunction usually means that the judge expects the law to fail in later proceedings:


This law was never necessary in the first place. Florida statute 790.335 already made it illegal for anyone to maintain a record of privately owned firearms. If a physician asks for the information and keeps it in your medical file, he is breaking this law. Here's what the statute says in part:

(2) PROHIBITIONS.--No state governmental agency or local government, special district, or other political subdivision or official, agent, or employee of such state or other governmental entity or any other person, public or private, shall knowingly and willfully keep or cause to be kept any list, record, or registry of privately owned firearms or any list, record, or registry of the owners of those firearms.


There are exceptions, of course, for those who are required by federal law to maintain records, such as FFLs. The law also allows redress for violations,

4. Law-abiding firearm owners whose names have been illegally recorded in a list, record, or registry are entitled to redress.

so if your Florida doctor asks such a question and writes your answer into your medical file, you might point this out to him. If that doesn't fix the problem, talk to a lawyer.

brboyer
April 3, 2012, 08:40 PM
This law was never necessary in the first place. Florida statute 790.335 already made it illegal for anyone to maintain a record of privately owned firearms. If a physician asks for the information and keeps it in your medical file, he is breaking this law. Here's what the statute says in part:




There are exceptions, of course, for those who are required by federal law to maintain records, such as FFLs. The law also allows redress for violations,



so if your Florida doctor asks such a question and writes your answer into your medical file, you might point this out to him. If that doesn't fix the problem, talk to a lawyer.
Actually, what they would have is a list of patients along with any information the those patients provided to the doctor voluntarily. Not a list of firearm owners. It a subtle difference, but important nonetheless.

790.338 had good intentions, but failed due to it's codification...happens a lot with the Tallahassee gang.

Believe it or not, the original draft had the penalty as a felony with a five million dollar fine.

What they should have done was approached it via professional regulation, if they would have limited medical professionals to offering 'safety' advise on only those topics that they have received professional training. Pool safety, chemical storage and use safety, firearm safety, prescription and illegal drug misuse, etc. Or only allow them to offer information such as handouts, contact information to industry experts, national organizations, etc.

writerinmo
April 3, 2012, 10:18 PM
I leave a LOT of questions blank on the forms at the doctors office, they never seem to care.

JColdIron
April 4, 2012, 12:58 PM
You are not kidding. Mine is now making patients fill in a preappointment form with any prescriptions and a few of his standard questions that he usually saves for the actual appointment.

Top question was: Reason for visit

I put down: Doctor boredom

He never noticed. I pointed it out at the end of my appt. :)

Agsalaska
April 4, 2012, 01:41 PM
Some doctors (particularly family practicioners) just want to remind you to store them locked up and/or unloaded so that little kids don't get them.
This.

I recently ran into that question at the pediatrics with my baby boy. I dont think we did it for my daughter when we lived in Alaska. But they asked it here. My wife answered it yes. I didnt really care. I am not ultra paranoid. Anyway when the doc saw it all he wanted was to talk child safety. He was not in any way ridiculing or looking down on us. He went thru his little speech and I told him I knew what I was doing. He smiled and we went on with the check up.


Sometimes its really important to put yourself in other peoples shoes. Most gun owners are naturally defensive about it and have reason to be. But in the last two years in my city we have had four children killed or injured by guns in the home. Pediatritians feel a certain responsibility to their patients that most other doctors dont quite have. If they want to ask and talk about it then I dont blame them.

30.06
April 4, 2012, 02:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUv9pjxq5QI

Owen Sparks
April 4, 2012, 03:22 PM
Does the doctor ever ask if you own a swimming pool? After all, drownding is the number one cause of death for children.

grasssnake
April 4, 2012, 04:06 PM
Any of my patients that are carrying in the exam room, I always tell them that I feel safer with them carrying in the office.

statelineblues
April 4, 2012, 11:07 PM
I only answer the information that is medically necessary.

Friday1
April 4, 2012, 11:40 PM
About a month ago I went to the doc for a check up. His receptionist gave me a form to fill out. Looked at it and thought it was a little too personal It asked my SS number, and asked about guns too. I took it back to the window and told her I refused to fill out such personal info that was NOYB. She looked at me like I was from Mars. I sat down and she yelled out the window for the whole waiting room to hear:"You have to fill it out. No one has ever refused to fill out that form!" I kind of smiled to myself as I said for all to hear "You just met the guy who isn't going to fill it out!" It was kind of amusing to me. I am 62 and she was about 21. I like this doc and his nurse that always takes care of me. We have a great rapport and have four German Sheps between us that we all talk about. I was in there a week ago and the loudmouth didn't hand me any forms to fill out. I asked a friend who manages a doc's office and she said they get $$ from a bigger clinic for every form you fill out.

RTR_RTR
April 5, 2012, 03:58 AM
^^Money for what exactly? Handing out patient information to individuals not involved in the care or billing for care of the patient is a serious no no.

At any rate, as someone already said, this is to ensure safekeeping around kids. It isn't going to play a role in medical decision-making, so if you're content with how you're keeping your firearms and don't want to hear the safety spiel, just don't fill it in, check no, whatever.

gopguy
April 5, 2012, 10:33 AM
My wife is a doctor and half the docs in the practice not only have their CHL but they carry in the office. The senior partner is somewhat liberal and wanted to put a no handguns sign when Ohio first got concealed carry. He was bluntly told by my wife and the others he would lose half the doctors if he did that. lol

crew
April 5, 2012, 05:28 PM
This.

I recently ran into that question at the pediatrics with my baby boy. I dont think we did it for my daughter when we lived in Alaska. But they asked it here. My wife answered it yes. I didnt really care. I am not ultra paranoid. Anyway when the doc saw it all he wanted was to talk child safety. He was not in any way ridiculing or looking down on us. He went thru his little speech and I told him I knew what I was doing. He smiled and we went on with the check up.


Sometimes its really important to put yourself in other peoples shoes. Most gun owners are naturally defensive about it and have reason to be. But in the last two years in my city we have had four children killed or injured by guns in the home. Pediatritians feel a certain responsibility to their patients that most other doctors dont quite have. If they want to ask and talk about it then I dont blame them.
Thank goodness for a sensible comment. Many things that we dont think about are relevant to our health, or the health of others in our lives. Thirty years ago if a doctor asked if you smoked in your home in the presence of your kids, we might have said MYOB. Now we know of the deadly effects of second hand smoke. If your doctor asks how much alcohol you drink, you might think MYOB, but this has implications in thousands of diseases. If your doctor asks if you are homosexual, you might think MYOB, but again this has implications for risks of many various health conditions. Same with seatbelts, motorcycle helmets, guns in the home, your job ( as it relates to risk of certain diseases and injuries)etc.

By the way, Medicare and many other health insurers will dock or withhold your doctors payment for a visit if he/she doesnt show that they asked certain questions that relate to health and disease prevention EVEN IF THOSE THINGS ARE NOT RELATED TO THE VISIT YOU ARE SEEING THE DOCTOR FOR.

I'm a doctor, gun owner, avid shooter and hunter, concealed carrier. And I understand the reasons that these questions are being asked.

BELIEVE ME, THIS ISNT SO YOUR DOCTOR CAN REPORT YOUR INFO TO "THE MAN" WHO WILL THEN KNOCK DOWN YOUR DOOR AND TAKE YOUR GUNS. C'MON, REALLY.

medalguy
April 5, 2012, 10:55 PM
Crew, I never suggested the doctor would report me to the jackbooted thugs we all know exist (:scrutiny: :p) but I do object to any doctor or other individual asking me whether or not I have firearms in my home. I'm a responsible gun owner, have no children in my home, and yet still keep all firearms out of the possible reach of any little ankle biters that might happen to wander into my home.

So I don't need anyone telling me that I need to be safe and keep firearms put away. If others need this kind of lecturing to, then fine. I just indicated that it was none of his business, and he indirectly responded back to me that he agreed that it wasn't any of his concern. I don't need a doctor, or the government, telling me what I should or shouldn't do in the privacy of my home. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

zoom6zoom
April 5, 2012, 11:32 PM
Every one of those I fill out want to know my SSN, too. I don't give them that information, either.

Loosedhorse
April 5, 2012, 11:37 PM
Every one of those I fill out want to know my SSN, too.They want it so they can sic the collectors and credit agencies on you if you skip on your co-pay. :evil:

doubleh
April 6, 2012, 10:37 AM
In the last two years I have had to find a new primary physician and have also seen a neuroligist for the first time. Last year the orthopedic guy wanted a record update since it had been several years since my last visit. I had three surgeries last year and had to fill out the questionaires at the hospital for each. Spent 9 weeks in therapy at a different hospital and had to do the questionaire and spent 10 weeks the second time with another questionaire.The guns in home question wasn't on any of them.

The PO that did my follow-up on two of the surgeries and I had some interesting discussions on ARs and some handguns. My state has very liberal gun laws. I guess most places just consider that you own guns.

bergmen
April 6, 2012, 12:20 PM
It is the implicit mistrust that crosses the line. The existence or possession of firearms are NOT the cause of any health related issue with gunshot wounds, irresponsibility IS.

It is the PEOPLE who do dumb things with firearms that cause injury and death. No different than irresponsible USE of knives, cars, baseball bats, plastic bags, bathtubs, hammers, blankets, swimming pools, household chemicals, open electrical wires, lead paint, etc., etc., etc, all of whaich has resulted in the death or serious injury of children.

Maybe patients should come up with their own questionaire for physicians offices:

1) Any drug/alcohol dependencies by any of the caregiver staff?
2) Any history of errors in diagnosis, treatment or pharmaceutical prescriptions?
3) Any lead based paint on any of the office walls? Any asbestos anywhere?
4) Etc., you get the idea.

Dan

Agsalaska
April 6, 2012, 12:26 PM
Does the doctor ever ask if you own a swimming pool? After all, drownding is the number one cause of death for children.



Actually yes. They do. They also asked a question about dogs. And smoking.

crew
April 6, 2012, 12:49 PM
AS IT IS SAID IN A POST ABOVE - "It is the PEOPLE who do dumb things with firearms that cause injury and death"

I AGREE - But how does a doctor know which are the people who "do dumb things" unless he/she is able to ask some questions like " IF YOU OWN FIREARMS, HOW DO YOU STORE THEM"

bergmen
April 6, 2012, 01:10 PM
AS IT IS SAID IN A POST ABOVE - "It is the PEOPLE who do dumb things with firearms that cause injury and death"

I AGREE - But how does a doctor know which are the people who "do dumb things" unless he/she is able to ask some questions like " IF YOU OWN FIREARMS, HOW DO YOU STORE THEM"

There are thousands of things that parents can do irresponibly that could adversely affect the health of their children.

Are they going to spend a few hours asking about all of these?

Parents have an inherent reponsibility for the safety and health of their children. The medical establishment has no business implicitly mistrusting parents in this regard.

Dan

wacki
April 6, 2012, 01:26 PM
30,000 firearm deaths per year in the US. The majority of those occur in populations with heavy drug use or a long history of crime.

100,000 iatrogenic deaths a year (doctor accidents)
100,000 nosocomial deaths a year (hospital induced infections)

Next time you see that form see if has the words AMA or American Medical Assocation at the top. They like to claim they represent the majority of doctors but they don't. They like to claim they are impartial but they aren't. Their priorities are all out of whack.


.

Agsalaska
April 6, 2012, 01:54 PM
There are thousands of things that parents can do irresponibly that could adversely affect the health of their children.

Are they going to spend a few hours asking about all of these?

Parents have an inherent reponsibility for the safety and health of their children. The medical establishment has no business implicitly mistrusting parents in this regard.

Dan

I disagree. I would not say a pediatrician is showing a lack of trust by asking questions about guns, pools, smoking, etc. Actually a lot of pediatricians spend just as much time talking to the parents about being parents as they do actually examining the kid. I noticed this with my first one and so was watching for it with the second. Sure enough he did the same thing. So they do spend a lot of time talking about the more obvious dangers.

Again, put yourself in there shoes. The poster earlier made the correct point when he pointed out the obvious fallacy in the 'I know what I am doing therefore they dont need to ask me' argument. How do they know if they dont ask. I bet my pediatrician has heard soem real bonehead answers in the past. Imagine the 'Q-Do you have a pool? A-Yes Q-Do you have a child gate? No. We dont need one. I stay at home so I can watch them 24-7' exchange. Or the Q-Do you own a firearms A yes. B Do you keep them in a safe? A-No. We just keep them up high in the closet so the kids cant reach them.' Those are realities the pediatricians deal with every day. They also have probably lost patients to this kind of ignorance. I have a lto of respect for pediatricians. Little kids can bring the most fun, but the biggest heardache too.


I am playing a little devils advocate here and just trying to see there point of view. I do see some merit with pediatricians.

mrvco
April 6, 2012, 02:36 PM
My significant-other is a nurse who works in a cancer clinic. They do ask psych-related questions, looking for signs of depression and/or suicidal thoughts and get them help if needed / desired. However they do not ask any firearms related questions.

Regardless, whatever information you enter on a form at your doctor's office is going to end up in a variety of insurance and governmental databases for now and forever.

smalls
April 6, 2012, 02:43 PM
I don't understand why people freak out about this. It's a simple question on a form. Don't want to answer it truthfully? Lie. So what?
The worst that really happens if you say yes is that they give you a lecture about gun safety. OH NO!

grasssnake
April 6, 2012, 04:18 PM
Medical Questionnaire (spoofing): 1. do you own a car. 2. do you drive it safely. 3. Has your car killed anyone when driven by you. 4. Are you aware that cars kill more people than guns? 5. Has you car ever been stolen and used to commit a crime? 6. Do you allow children to play with your car?
It could go on and on and probably will in the future as the Nannie State takes over your freedom.

medalguy
April 6, 2012, 10:33 PM
Good point. I fully underestand the points made about pediatricians asking about hazards in the home when small children are present. However, my visit was to an internist/cardiologist and I am 65 years old, hardly the kind of patient who a doctor should spend valuable time with discussing possible pediatric hazards. I would much prefer his spending time with me, at least, discussing topics that might be relevant to MY health. After all, that's why I came to see him.

I still don't think it's within the realm of topics for any doctor to want to know, as a general rule, whether I have any firearms in my home. That's my business. What if our financial adviser or accountant asked the same question of any of us? Would we feel it was any of their business? How about your auto mechanic or appliance repairman? Would you feel any more or less inclined to discuss your firearms ownership with them, unless you happened to be discussing the upcoming turkey season, and where the best place to hunt might be?

Agsalaska
April 6, 2012, 11:21 PM
Medalguy I agree with you. Your doctor has no business asking those kinds of questions.

Bojangles7
April 6, 2012, 11:36 PM
I went to the VA last year to see a doc about some anxiety issues I'd been having. The only reason I went there instead of my pcp was because I wasn't sure if it was some form of PTSD. He started asking if I had guns in the house and I told him I did. He seemed more concerned about that than the anxiety issues I was having. He said it was because he was concerned because if I was depressed, that would be a concern. Even after I told him I've never had problems with depression, he still insisted on asking why I felt the need to own firearms. I was so damn pissed off at the guy I just wanted to tell him to f off and walk out. Needless to say, I've never been back to the VA.

Loosedhorse
April 6, 2012, 11:49 PM
I am 65 years old, hardly the kind of patient who a doctor should spend valuable time with discussing possible pediatric hazards. I would much prefer his spending time with me, at least, discussing topics that might be relevant to MY health.Medical problems that might be related to shooting:

Hearing loss
Elevated blood lead level
Hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, and back problems


Preventive medicine issues related to a gun in the home of a 65 year-old

Access of the gun to visiting children (grandkids)
Access of the gun to an adult child or spouse, who may have depression or other mental illness
Access of the gun to the patient, if he has a history of depression, or is on a medication that might cause depression--or if the physician might ever consider giving him a new medication that has depression as a possible side-effect.


Just off the top of my head.

Pilot
April 7, 2012, 03:50 AM
This is not a new thing. Doctors often follow the CDC and our own U.S. Public Health Service positions, and many being acadmics have the broad, liberal view that guns are "bad".

"Last year Congress tried to take away $2.6 million from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In budgetary terms, it was a pittance: 0.1 percent of the CDC's $2.2 billion allocation. Symbolically, however, it was important: $2.6 million was the amount the CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control had spent in 1995 on studies of firearm injuries. Congressional critics, who charged that the center's research program was driven by an anti-gun prejudice, had previously sought to eliminate the NCIPC completely. "This research is designed to, and is used to, promote a campaign to reduce lawful firearms ownership in America," wrote 10 senators, including then Majority Leader Bob Dole and current Majority Leader Trent Lott. "Funding redundant research initiatives, particularly those which are driven by a social-policy agenda, simply does not make sense."

"When CDC sources do cite adverse studies, they often get them wrong. In 1987 the National Institute of Justice hired two sociologists, James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi, to assess the scholarly literature and produce an agenda for gun control. Wright and Rossi found the literature so biased and shoddy that it provided no basis for concluding anything positive about gun laws. Like Kleck, they were forced to give up their own prior faith in gun control as they researched the issue."

"As Bordua, Cowan, and Southwick observed, a prejudice against gun ownership pervades the public health field. Deborah Prothrow-Stith, dean of the Harvard School of Public Health, nicely summarizes the typical attitude of her colleagues in a recent book. "My own view on gun control is simple," she writes. "I hate guns and cannot imagine why anybody would want to own one. If I had my way, guns for sport would be registered, and all other guns would be banned." Opposition to gun ownership is also the official position of the U.S. Public Health Service, the CDC's parent agency. Since 1979, its goal has been "to reduce the number of handguns in private ownership," starting with a 25 percent reduction by the turn of the century."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x314650

wojownik
April 7, 2012, 03:59 PM
My family practitioner (passed away recently, unfortunately) was not really pro-2A by any definition, but never pressed any sort of agenda into his practice. Good guy, different political views, but sticked within what was relevant for the exam.

My pediatrician has forms we get for each exam with the kids. They don't ask about firearms, but give recommendations from everything from what to expect with your kids behavior, to storing household chemicals to ... firearms. Two years ago, the forms had a one line recommendation about not having firearms at all if you ahve kids. Recently, I noticed they changed the recommendation to "if you have firearms, do not store them in the house." One of the more useless recommendations I can think of.

medalguy
April 7, 2012, 11:27 PM
Medical problems that might be related to shooting:
Hearing loss none
Elevated blood lead level none
Hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, and back problems none

Preventive medicine issues related to a gun in the home of a 65 year-old
Access of the gun to visiting children (grandkids) none
Access of the gun to an adult child or spouse, who may have depression or other mental illness none
Access of the gun to the patient, if he has a history of depression none, or is on a medication that might cause depressionn none--or if the physician might ever consider giving him a new medication that has depression as a possible side-effect. none

Still none of his business.

RTR_RTR
April 8, 2012, 07:32 PM
Medical Questionnaire (spoofing): 1. do you own a car. 2. do you drive it safely. 3. Has your car killed anyone when driven by you. 4. Are you aware that cars kill more people than guns? 5. Has you car ever been stolen and used to commit a crime? 6. Do you allow children to play with your car?
It could go on and on and probably will in the future as the Nannie State takes over your freedom.

Or a much more realistic situation - How does your child ride in the car? Do you use a child seat? Child seats have been shown to be safer for children until they reach x height, and I would highly recommend you look into purchasing one if you haven't already.

Medical problems that might be related to shooting:
Hearing loss none
Elevated blood lead level none
Hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, and back problems none

Preventive medicine issues related to a gun in the home of a 65 year-old
Access of the gun to visiting children (grandkids) none
Access of the gun to an adult child or spouse, who may have depression or other mental illness none
Access of the gun to the patient, if he has a history of depression none, or is on a medication that might cause depressionn none--or if the physician might ever consider giving him a new medication that has depression as a possible side-effect. none

Still none of his business.

Then don't tell him anything ;) You're more than welcome to refuse to discuss anything about your sex life as well. It's all your choice.

I went to the VA last year to see a doc about some anxiety issues I'd been having. The only reason I went there instead of my pcp was because I wasn't sure if it was some form of PTSD. He started asking if I had guns in the house and I told him I did. He seemed more concerned about that than the anxiety issues I was having. He said it was because he was concerned because if I was depressed, that would be a concern. Even after I told him I've never had problems with depression, he still insisted on asking why I felt the need to own firearms. I was so damn pissed off at the guy I just wanted to tell him to f off and walk out. Needless to say, I've never been back to the VA.

While focusing on firearms wasn't the best thing, as described, the comorbidity rates between anxiety disorders, depression, and PTSD are very high, and it would be a bad doctor who doesn't strongly investigate the possibility of depression

Loosedhorse
April 8, 2012, 09:40 PM
Still none of his business.No: still is

Since those could have been part of your history, and also because asking about guns in the house is considered standard medical practice these days, he can reasonably choose to ask.

In return, you can reasonably choose to refuse to answer, or even to find another doctor. Or you can unreasonably decide you know what his business should be better than he does.

And you've made your choices. :D

medalguy
April 10, 2012, 12:53 AM
Well, again, my question is WHY is asking about guns in the house considered standard medical practice these days? He never asked if I own any baseball bats, knives, or a chain saw? What is it about firearms that makes some doctors think they need to ask if I own any? There are a lot of other things in and around my home that are far more dangerous to me and to others than firearms.

I guess I just resent the asking about firearms and not about any other dangerous things and practices.

RTR_RTR
April 10, 2012, 02:21 AM
Knives are dangerous, but kids learn very quickly what sharp is and what sharp things are - there's generally a lot of opportunity for learning to take place. Guns, you don't get many learning opportunities. Baseball bats? Really? And how many toddlers are starting chainsaws?

More realistic threats that should be addressed - preventing access to cleaners and other chemicals, covering electrical outlets, binding blinds string, etc. These are things that should be brought up, along with recommendations for safe gun storage. As was said earlier (I think), plenty of people underestimate the resourcefulness of toddlers and think "just putting something up high" is adequate. Tragedy can result.

Chris-bob
April 10, 2012, 03:24 AM
BELIEVE ME, THIS ISNT SO YOUR DOCTOR CAN REPORT YOUR INFO TO "THE MAN" WHO WILL THEN KNOCK DOWN YOUR DOOR AND TAKE YOUR GUNS. C'MON, REALLY.
Who says they won't in the future?

Chris-bob
April 10, 2012, 03:34 AM
Knives are dangerous, but kids learn very quickly what sharp is and what sharp things are - there's generally a lot of opportunity for learning to take place. Guns, you don't get many learning opportunities. Baseball bats? Really? And how many toddlers are starting chainsaws?
Let's see, people are still cutting themselves as adults with knives because even though they know which part is sharp, they still touch it.
When I was in High School, baseball bats were the weapon of choice for fights. And that was when guns were allowed on campus in your vehicle and you could make knifes in shop class, but you could have a bat in your locker.
My children all tried playing with my chainsaws when they could sneak into the shop.

RTR_RTR
April 10, 2012, 03:58 AM
Let's see, people are still cutting themselves as adults with knives because even though they know which part is sharp, they still touch it.

Not the non-masochistic adults I'm familiar with... Unless you're talking about accidents. At any rate, how life threatening are those injuries? Even severe lacerations are generally not imminently life threatening unless you manage to sever one of the few major superficial veins/arteries.

When I was in High School, baseball bats were the weapon of choice for fights. And that was when guns were allowed on campus in your vehicle and you could make knifes in shop class, but you could have a bat in your locker.

We're talking about toddlers

My children all tried playing with my chainsaws when they could sneak into the shop.

How successful were they? Chainsaws are just not built for 3-5 year olds to start.

How about this - try to look up an instance of a child involved in an accidental fatal shooting. Now look up an accidental fatal stabbing/bludgeoning/chainsaw massacring by a child. Go back and forth and see which you have trouble finding first.

nofishbob
April 10, 2012, 08:49 AM
It seems that some physicians assign themselves to the role of something like a "whole life counselor" where all aspects of the patients life are under review.

We are to defer to the doctor's superior education and social status as we are lectured about aspects of our life outside our physical bodies.

If that is what you want in a doctor, great. I do not.

When you mix the anti-gun politics of the different doctor's groups with advances in electronic medical records, and the issues surrounding keeping lists of gun owners out of the state's control, you get a toxic situation where the traditional relationship of the physician to his patient is degraded.

Bob

medalguy
April 10, 2012, 11:13 AM
This is my point exactly. ^^^^^^

To repeat, everyone seems concerned with small children. I am 65, my children are all over 35 years old, and they have no children = no grandchildren, no little anklebiters running around my home. I am visiting with a cardiologist, not a pediatrician. Get it?

My original point was the doctor didn't like the querstion either and thought it invasive. So did I.

bergmen
April 10, 2012, 11:32 AM
My parent's generation were never asked about firearms by their medical professionals (unless it was to find out what rifle or caliber to take on what hunt). They didn't need to.

It did not take a village to raise us. This did not mean that my parents didn't learn from others but it certainly meant that it was inappropriate to lecture them, from any source, in an unsolicited way on how to be "good" parents.

If the reason for a doctor visit is somehow related to firearms use, discussion of the subject could be considered within the bounds of the purpose of the visit. If it is not, all other subjects not related to the visit or of medical history is strictly out of bounds.

Information gathered inappropriately is ripe for misuse since it can very well be tied to an agenda, and subsequently used to curb freedoms and liberties of law abiding citizens. The CDC is blatant in this regard considering firearms rather than actions to be the source of firearm safety issues.

I stand 100% by my earlier posts (#41 & #44).

Dan

DAP90
April 10, 2012, 11:39 AM
I look at it this way. I am not forced to see any particular doctor and can vote with my money and feet. If I answer yes and the doctor goes into some kind of anti-gun rant I feel I am better off for knowing who I am dealing with and can now go find a doctor with which I am more compatible.

Let’s be clear though, some people can be quite oblivious and need to be reminded of even the most basic safety items. This is not limited to firearms and doctors do not limit their safety questions to firearms.

My son’s doctor asked me about firearms. I answered they were safely stored and we moved on to other topics. It never came up again. We discussed a wide variety of safety related items. There’s nothing wrong or sinister about preventive medicine or advice. You are free to ignore it, answer the questions honestly, lie, engage in a debate or give hunting advice in return.

These questions aren’t aimed at you or me in particular. They are designed to find those people who are in need of this advice. Last week a women was arrested for holding a 1 year old on her lap while texting and driving, with two more kids unrestrained in the back.

If it’s not a political crusade of some kind the doctor isn’t going to waste time on a responsible firearm owner. If it is an anti-gun crusade – see paragraph 1.

crew
April 10, 2012, 01:49 PM
It seems that some physicians assign themselves to the role of something like a "whole life counselor" where all aspects of the patients life are under review.

We are to defer to the doctor's superior education and social status as we are lectured about aspects of our life outside our physical bodies.

If that is what you want in a doctor, great. I do not.

When you mix the anti-gun politics of the different doctor's groups with advances in electronic medical records, and the issues surrounding keeping lists of gun owners out of the state's control, you get a toxic situation where the traditional relationship of the physician to his patient is degraded.

Bob
MANY insurance companies have deemed it REQUIRED that YOUR doctor asks these questions. See my earlier post, but in a nutshell, insurance companies including some MEDICARE providers, have determined that if your doctor does not ask these questions , then he/ she is not doing the job properly, and may not get paid for that visit. Believe me, most doctors want to take care of you as efficiently as possible, but so many requirements have been put down by insuraqnce companies that make all our lives more difficult.
For example, did you know that if you are a smoker, and your doctor doesnt document on your chart that he talked to you about the dangers of smoking - the doctor may not get paid for that visit, NO MATTER WHAT ELSE YOUR VISIT WAS FOR.

example 2, if you habe a BMI that puts you in a range considered obese, your doctor must document in the chart that he talked to you about the health dangers of obesity, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR VISIT WADS FOR or else....you guessed it, your health insurance company can dock your doctors pay for that visit.

These are obviously medically important issues (smoking and obesity) but really, what sane adult can say that they aren't aware of the health risks of these , but still, your doctor is supposed to counsel you about these risks ON EVERY VISIT.

You might say " none of their business" but they have to ask, sometimes not by choice.

crew
April 10, 2012, 01:52 PM
My parent's generation were never asked about firearms by their medical professionals (unless it was to find out what rifle or caliber to take on what hunt). They didn't need to.

It did not take a village to raise us. This did not mean that my parents didn't learn from others but it certainly meant that it was inappropriate to lecture them, from any source, in an unsolicited way on how to be "good" parents.

If the reason for a doctor visit is somehow related to firearms use, discussion of the subject could be considered within the bounds of the purpose of the visit. If it is not, all other subjects not related to the visit or of medical history is strictly out of bounds.

Information gathered inappropriately is ripe for misuse since it can very well be tied to an agenda, and subsequently used to curb freedoms and liberties of law abiding citizens. The CDC is blatant in this regard considering firearms rather than actions to be the source of firearm safety issues.

I stand 100% by my earlier posts (#41 & #44).

Dan
see my post above # 69. The people that pay your doctor for your health care say that these questions ARE NOT OUT OF BOUNDS. In fact they say that these questions are often REQUIRED

RTR_RTR
April 10, 2012, 01:56 PM
Additionally, you're opening yourself up to litigation if you breach that standard of care and that patient develops lung cancer, heart disease, etc.

crew
April 10, 2012, 02:18 PM
or if your neighbors grandchild shoots themselves or someone else with a firearm from your nightstand

bergmen
April 10, 2012, 02:37 PM
see my post above # 69. The people that pay your doctor for your health care say that these questions ARE NOT OUT OF BOUNDS. In fact they say that these questions are often REQUIRED

I can understand how you must ask these questions as a result of requirements from the insurance companies. But the insurance companies are requiring this as a CYA to prevent lawsuits.

This is being driven by attorneys. This is NOT being driven by concerns for my health. Nothing in your previous two posts suggests that you are looking out for your patients (not to suggest that you don't) by virtue of your responses. You are looking to comply with legal requirements.

I am not faulting you for this. This is a manifestation of a corruption of perspectives. Medical professionals know how to do their jobs without pesky interferences by lawyers, if only they were allowed to do so.

I am sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. But before malpractice suits became an industry, doctors were much more free to practice their profession for the specific benefit of their patients, not the lawyers.

Dan

RTR_RTR
April 10, 2012, 02:44 PM
Not sure about crew, but my input was just for additional perspective. I think it's in the patients' best interest.

CZguy
April 10, 2012, 03:00 PM
These type of threads aren't really about the best interests of patients. It's about emotional responses to hot button topics.

crew
April 10, 2012, 03:26 PM
I can understand how you must ask these questions as a result of requirements from the insurance companies. But the insurance companies are requiring this as a CYA to prevent lawsuits.

This is being driven by attorneys. This is NOT being driven by concerns for my health. Nothing in your previous two posts suggests that you are looking out for your patients (not to suggest that you don't) by virtue of your responses. You are looking to comply with legal requirements.

I am not faulting you for this. This is a manifestation of a corruption of perspectives. Medical professionals know how to do their jobs without pesky interferences by lawyers, if only they were allowed to do so.

I am sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. But before malpractice suits became an industry, doctors were much more free to practice their profession for the specific benefit of their patients, not the lawyers.

Dan
I agree completely. These repetetive questions are merely cya to keep the lawyers happy, or a way for insurance companies to avoidind paying. You are absolutely correct when you say that in "the good old days" your doctor could look after you very well without lawyers , government and insurance companies telling him what to ask.

I do resent some posters implications that some doctors are benefitting from acquiring this info ...ie: selling it to some agency for profit. No how, No way. That would be criminal, and against all HIPPA laws.
I'm out. Good eye-opening discussion on many different viewpoints. Thats why I love THR

ArfinGreebly
April 10, 2012, 03:43 PM
It seems that some physicians assign themselves to the role of something like a "whole life counselor" where all aspects of the patients life are under review.

We are to defer to the doctor's superior education and social status as we are lectured about aspects of our life outside our physical bodies.

Keep in mind that current "conventional wisdom" in medicine is that "mental health" is, in fact, physical health. Medicine has accepted that the mind == the brain and the brain is an organ on which surgery can be performed and to which "medication" can be applied.

This leads to all manner of overreaching.

Of course, acknowledging that the mind may not entirely reside within the confines of the brain opens the door to the possibility that there might be some validity to the precepts of religion, and a number of special interest groups within "medicine" have gone to some considerable lengths to eliminate that line of thinking altogether.

For the record, to those who would assert that all thought, all emotion, all desires, and all feeling are entirely the results of physical processes, I have this to say: I disagree.

And I think that partially identifies the problem many have with this "medical" attitude that all your think are belong to us.

RTR_RTR
April 10, 2012, 04:36 PM
^I'm not sure how we took this turn in the conversation. We're talking about counseling behavior, so how does this tie in to philosophy of mind?

whalerman
April 10, 2012, 04:43 PM
We took this turn in the conversation because some of us live in parts of the nation where the nanny state has intruded into private lives on a scale unimaginable in other parts of the country. People from the northeast are programmed to make excuses for obnoxious behavior, while people from free states won't tolerate it. If you live in a MA or a NY you have to live this way, or you might get upset. You have to convince yourself that the state has a right to do anything it wishes. You will find that most of the defenders are indeed from that part of the nation. Oh to live in a free state again. I am so tired of my bend over neighbors here in NY.

Sauer Grapes
April 10, 2012, 04:49 PM
I had a nurse come into the exam room some years ago and told me she had a short survey of questions to asked me.
That was one of the questions. Along with some other questions, my reply was, "no comment". Acually before the survey was completed, I politely told her I would not answer any more of her questions since they were irrelevant to my medical history.

I had been going to this guy for about 5 yrs. I never brought it up with him, and he never did either.

N003k
April 10, 2012, 04:54 PM
I've been seeing my current doctor for about 4 years now, never had that asked. Now that I carry, I'm just waiting for the day he catches a glimpse of my gun during an exam, hopefully that day doesn't end with me needing to find a new doctor!

Mine doesn't seem like the type to care though, he pretty much addresses the current issue, and any MEDICAL concerns, and other things are left to be other things.

x_wrench
April 10, 2012, 04:58 PM
my doctor and i usually at least mention bullet casting, reloading, or a new powder or load one or both of us have tried recently. i have been with him since my son was born in 2001. and i will be with him as long as i can.

whalerman
April 10, 2012, 04:59 PM
This type of rationalization, pretending that insurance companies must force Drs to ask this kind of stuff, reminds me of the wiggling done by our schools when confronted with stupid stuff. They always blame educrats on the state level or fed level. Then most of the opposition just goes away. I say baloney. This trend of questioning is taking place because people tolerate it. So many stupid things take place simply because people tolerate it. They make excuses for its existence then bend over like sheep and accept the foolishness. Sorry, I'm just getting too old for it. I guess I need a public school course in conformity.

Chris-bob
April 11, 2012, 04:54 AM
Does it matter why they ask? It is none of their business no matter how concerned they are. Until they are willing to answer those same questions and give me free range of their insurance info and medical records, I will refuse to give them mine. The less they know outside of why I am in their office, the better. The info you give them goes on record. At any time those records can be requested(with proper paperwork) by the authorities(whoever they may be)...even if you committed no crime(look at the patriot act and amendments). Just because they claim to have you and everyone elses' best interests in mind.

I changed my mind, even if they offered me full disclosure of their info, I still would not want to give them mine.

aprayinbear
April 11, 2012, 06:00 AM
:neener:

A few years ago I took a young friend (and shooting buddy) who was pregnant to see her doctor. As with most young mothers, she was concerned about her pregnancy and doing what was best for her child, so she asked the doc, "What about shooting? Is it noise safe for the baby?" The doctor didn't even flinch (apparently in his practice this was a common question) as he replied, "No problems with shooting, but I don't like the 4-wheeler until after you give birth!" I'm glad I live in SC!

Oh and by the way, shooting is one of my personal doctors favorite past-times. We share stories all the time!

Shoot Safe, Shoot Often Shoot tens!

Hunterdad
April 11, 2012, 06:28 AM
"What about shooting? Is it noise safe for the baby?" The doctor didn't even flinch (apparently in his practice this was a common question) as he replied, "No problems with shooting,

My wife is currently pregnant and we were told by her doctor that shooting could damage the babies hearing. And I don't doubt it. I had a banquet for my trap league a couple weeks ago and while we were walking in, the baby was going nuts because I'm assuming she could here the guys shooting.

whalerman
April 11, 2012, 09:09 PM
What would you expect from a Doc on Syracuse, NY, Hunterdad? I'll bet this same MD wouldn't mind a bit if you went to a hip-hop concert where the bumpin' and thumpin' would frighten your little fetus to death. He/she would probably end up being born with a diaper worn low on its butt and a nose ring. Just put a pair of headphones on your bride's belly and hammer some clays.

RTR_RTR
April 12, 2012, 12:44 AM
AFAIK, no studies have been done specifically on shooting and fetal development, but there have been studies that link occupational sound exposure to negative fetal effects. I, personally, would err on the side of caution, but the choice is obviously up to you and your missus. There are certainly differences between occupational sound exposure and gun report.

Edit: regardless, hubby does the gun cleaning!

hemiram
April 15, 2012, 01:03 AM
My GP guy isn't fond of guns as he had a murder in the family (Uncle killed his aunt and her best friend after a seemingly minor argument, went to work and claimed he found them that way when he got home.), but he just said, "Be careful!", when he saw my nose that had a burn on it from a 9mm case that bounced off the sides of the booth at the range and went under my glasses. Amazing ricochet! My orthopedic doc took me into his office and showed me his Beretta Steel, all SS 92 he had just picked up that morning at the GS I was going to after I got done with him. Nice.

AlexanderA
April 15, 2012, 10:07 AM
Just because a question is on a form, doesn't mean you have to answer it (unless some legal authority is cited, such as on a Form 4473). I would guess that most doctors would ignore the non-relevant questions and the non-responses thereto. The doctors are generally too busy to be bothered with this PC stuff.

Balrog
April 15, 2012, 10:28 AM
I think most of you guys need to quit going to doctors and just die in your 40s and 50 like people did a couple hundred years ago.

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