Double Taps still phony?


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Eric's Big Head
April 3, 2012, 03:25 PM
To those who's not aware, Double Taps have been tested on several YouTube videos along with other brands such as Buffalo Bore, Swamp Fox, PMC, etc.

Of all those tested, Double Taps velocity were the lowest by a much larger margin than the rest whenit comes to the 10mm loads.

Some of the other brands chrono'ed velocity higher than that stated on their package.

Are Double Taps still "Inflating" their numbers?

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youngda9
April 3, 2012, 04:13 PM
They are probably numbers out of 20" barrels. :) Buffalo Bore gives velocities out of several different barrel lengths in their handgun offerings.

jmr40
April 3, 2012, 04:40 PM
Double Tap claims 1300 FPS for 200 gr hardcast from a factory Glock 20. My chronograph says 1315 my Glock 20. Close enough for me.

Just because someone else gets different numbers does not mean much. Many things influence the velocity you get from ammo. Some ammo is effected by the temperature when tested. Often 1 fps slower for each degree colder. Ammo tested at 20 degrees could be as much as 70 fps slower than when tested at 90 degrees. Ammo tested in the same gun, but at different times of the day can give quite different readings because of the intensity and angle of sunlight on the chronograph.

Unless the ammo is all tested in the same gun, under the exact same conditions it means little.

Different guns shoot the same ammo faster. I have more data for rifles than handguns. Between my brother and I we own four 30-06 rifles with 22" barrels. With the same ammo I get the following velocities, 3025 fps, 3015, fps, 2980 fps, and 2960 fps. That is 65 fps difference between the fastest gun and slowest rifle.

I have some other, heavier bullets that chronograph at 2850 fps in my gun, but only 2725 fps in a friends rifle. Same loads, same barrel length, shot within 2 minutes of each other on the same day. 125 fps slower in his rifle than mine.

Eric's Big Head
April 3, 2012, 05:06 PM
They are probably numbers out of 20" barrels. Buffalo Bore gives velocities out of several different barrel lengths in their handgun offerings.

Let me add that in these videos, the shooter shot all different 10mm loads out of his Glock 20.

If Double Tap tested out of a 20" barrel, then the low numbers in test would make sence.



JMR40 : The tests were shot with a Glock 20. DT claims they shot out of the same pistol.

brickeyee
April 3, 2012, 05:11 PM
the shooter shot all different 10mm loads out of his Glock 20.

And it is NOT identical to Double Tap's Glock 20.

jmr40
April 3, 2012, 06:42 PM
And they were not shot at the same time, same temperature, over the same chronograph. I have no doubt that Double Tap gets the advertised velocty from their gun. If you get a different reading from your gun it means nothing.

All of the 30-06 loads I used as examples in my 1st post are my hand loads. If I were advertising them for sale I, just like anyone else, would advertise them at the velocity I got from my best gun. If your gun gets less velocity, it is not my fault.

ku4hx
April 3, 2012, 07:01 PM
Not a scientific study by any means, but five shots each from my BB box and my DT box earlier this year clocked very closely to published velocities for both.

I have them strictly for those occasions when either my G20 or Smith 1006 are in SD rotation. My own loads, 180 grain Remington Golden Saber and 180 grain Speer Gold Dot are 50 fps, on average, below the BB and DT loads for that weight bullet. I don't even worry about 50 fps difference.

Variances in velocities for the same load from one gun to another prove nothing other than the fact that differences exist. I've loaded thousands of rounds with the same bullet lot, same powder lot, same primer lot and same case lot. Even when weighing all charges to ensure accuracy of the charge, there are muzzle velocity variances in the same gun. It's just the nature of the beast. There are just too many variables you can't control: ambient temperature, barrel heat up rate, barrel cool down rate, atmospheric pressure, powder orientation in the case, individual primer brisance differences and so forth.

Robert101
April 3, 2012, 07:58 PM
And my car doesn't get the acutal MPG as shown on the sale sticker either. I do get your post and actually I agree that the test results from similar guns should get close to the manufacturer's claimed velocities. We (the gun caring public) are a better informed and expect more than the average "Joe". Glad to see someone is testing and sharing the results.

I don't agree that minor variations in case angle, case lot, etc. will produce major differences in velocity. Some variation I agree. We expect the results shown on the box darn-it.

With all that said I do believe Double Tap is a good company and I'm glad they provide us a good product.

jmr40
April 3, 2012, 08:03 PM
Another possibility is that newer Glock 20 barrels just don't shoot as fast as the older models used in Double Tap's testing. It could be the guns fault, rather than the ammo.

NOLAEMT
April 3, 2012, 11:44 PM
I've chronographed several of double taps 45 and 357 loads over my chronograph, and have gotten numbers consistent with their published velocities, in fact my 5" 686+ "pro series" gets higher than advertised velocities with all the loads I tested.

intercooler
April 4, 2012, 12:35 AM
DT is 100-125 FPS off in every 10mm round I have tried. Their .357 is 150 FPS off out of my GP100 4" (same gun they claim with). I can throw a Buffalo Bore, Underwood, even Federal and get the numbers. Got no reason to buy a DT anything anymore.


I will trade anyone for DT though just to run over the Chrony and see how bad it fails.

Eric's Big Head
April 4, 2012, 01:27 PM
Another possibility is that newer Glock 20 barrels just don't shoot as fast as the older models used in Double Tap's testing. It could be the guns fault, rather than the ammo.

Really? One Glock 20 will cause 150+ fps drop compared to another Glock 20 for only Double Taps when all other brands are close to advertised claims? Really?

I understand some of your defense here using variables such as atmosphere, temp, barrel difference and so on. I do not agree with it though because these are variables they are all subjected to, but Double Taps show a negative side effect to these variable while Buffalo Bore, PMC, Swamp Fox and quite a few others are very close to their manufacter's claims.

My post is not to ask wether Double Tap's claim are false or not. The test done by the public proves their claim are outrageously inflated compared to other brands. I'm curious if they are still "deceiving" the public or are they up to par with their claims because I have not seen new tests to prove otherwise.

NOLAEMT
April 4, 2012, 01:55 PM
It seems to me that you have already made up your mind, so why start a thread to ask a question you already feel you know the answer to?

In this thread the majority of respondents reported that double tap's numbers were consistent with their chrono'd results. That would seem to say to me that perhaps the people at double tap are publishing the actual velocities they are getting from their test guns.

wild cat mccane
April 4, 2012, 02:25 PM
FPS isn't the only part of the equation.

Buffalo Bore has switched from a Gold Dot bullet to a crappy generic. Generic hollow points tend not to expand well while Gold Dots are some of the best bullet technology right now.

If you think FPS is the only important part of a HOLLOW POINT...perhaps think less obtuse and think about the actual hollow point :D

trex1310
April 4, 2012, 06:20 PM
This is another one of those internet rumors like the S&W lock
failures, Glock kabooms, getting prosecuted because of your
trigger job, etc., ad nauseum.

Loosedhorse
April 4, 2012, 06:32 PM
Hey, I'm gullible, but I believe this (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402669):As far as Double Tap's advertised boxflap velocities for its pistol ammo, McNett generally chronographs these loads from stock Glock pistols at high elevation in Utah. Factoring for all the variables like elevation, temperature, humidity, type of pistol used, etc., you'll find posts from DT users across the U.S. reporting both lower and higher velocities

I like DT ammo, and having dealt with Mike McNett personally on one particular issue, I cannot believe anyone who says he's dishonest. He sure was honest with me.

Hey, if you want a treat, try his "new" 10mm 125grs. Yowza! Chono those and get back to me!

intercooler
April 4, 2012, 07:31 PM
I would love to Chrony them. Send me 5 and I will send you 5 of your flavor back.

intercooler
April 5, 2012, 11:49 AM
Just ordered this today:

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-10mm-right-to-bear-180gr-fmj-ammo/cName/10mm-fmj-lrn

Possibly another real 10mm ammo supplier in the making. I'm going to do a video Chrony testing it. If anyone wants to trade some DoubleTap for some Underwood I would love to have it for this video. PM me if you have any.

JERRY
April 5, 2012, 11:55 AM
if the gun or bbl are the problem, then why does the BB and other rounds get their published velocities but DT doesnt?

shouldnt they all fall 100+ fps short since the same gun is used for all of them?

or is DT the only ammo to recognize the slow bbl and the other ammo doesnt care so it does what it should? LOL

wild cat mccane
April 5, 2012, 02:38 PM
Care to address my bullet type used being more important than a meager loss of 100 fps comment?

intercooler
April 5, 2012, 03:01 PM
Address what part? To date DoubleTap is the only one I know that switched bullets on the fly without notice pissing people off.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1172545.html

You can search.

Is XTP a good one? Gold Dot? Or are we talking design?

R.W.Dale
April 5, 2012, 03:46 PM
FPS isn't the only part of the equation.

Buffalo Bore has switched from a Gold Dot bullet to a crappy generic. Generic hollow points tend not to expand well while Gold Dots are some of the best bullet technology right now.

If you think FPS is the only important part of a HOLLOW POINT...perhaps think less obtuse and think about the actual hollow point :D

This is the ONLY post in this thread that really needs to be read.

For hunting fps matters.

For SD ill take a 40 level load with a tested and proven (at the velocity) bullet every time over a couple hundred fps with the "I think this'll work" jhp of the month.

40,45,9mm,357 stretches out bad guys with such reliability what exactly is 200 more fps supposed to do?

posted via mobile device.

intercooler
April 5, 2012, 04:05 PM
Then buy a .40 and be happy :)

wild cat mccane
April 5, 2012, 04:07 PM
Um actually Buffalo Bore was the first to do it (still does). Go to their website. Picture says may not be what you receive. But all the pictures have a Gold Dot bullet. The expansion data stays the same on their website though. That is odd don't you think? Two different bullets expand the same on average? Hum...

Nice try ace, but Buffalo Bore was the first liars of the bullet companies to switch when Gold Dots started to dry up. Go to KTOG under the P3AT .380 section. Happened 3 years ago and still is happening.

JERRY
April 5, 2012, 04:11 PM
if a manufacturer lables their 180gr. round @ 1300 fps from a stock G20, then folks are right to expect that and complain when there is a consistant falling short of that.

i know if i want a 180gr. @1300 fps from my G20 stock bbl, i go to Underwood Ammo.

wild cat mccane
April 5, 2012, 04:19 PM
Well then Buffalo Bore is also guilty under your definition.

A generic hollow point isn't going to expand like a Gold Dot. So when they claim on their website data that their bullets give Gold Dot expansion, but then ship you a bullet with a generic hollow point (they use one called Seirrah or something) that makes them equally culpable. They say right on the picture you may not get the exact bullet, with the picture featuring one of the best hollow points there is (Gold Dot).

This argument is completely silly. I understand getting annoyed by the difference in fps. BUT the major point in a HOLLOW POINT is that a HOLLOW POINT's technology makes up ANY difference that is found in FPS, all else being equal such as the rounds being self defense rounds and not target crap ammo.

intercooler
April 5, 2012, 04:26 PM
I don't shoot bb or dt so don't care. Both are way overpriced.

intercooler
April 5, 2012, 04:30 PM
But bb meets claims :)

Hey you pay a premium price for so called premium ammo. It better whistle Dixie on top of meeting claims.

wild cat mccane
April 5, 2012, 04:47 PM
You are using circular logic and a straw man.

BB may meet one claim, but they are failing at the MAJOR claim of a hollow point. Expansion.

JERRY
April 5, 2012, 04:53 PM
both BB and DT switched bullets, both BB and DT are more expensive than the others, BB meets velocity claims, DT does not. i wont buy either due to same ammo for lower prices and still good quality can be had elsewhere.

why by DT when you can get quality ammo with the same switched or proper bullets for less and they meet velocity claims? i have hundreds of DT 10mm rounds, that once theyre gone they will be gone, Underwood is the only company i know of that makes a 135gr, 165gr, 180gr, and 200gr 10mm load that meets the velocity claims and costs less than DT and BB.

jmr40
April 5, 2012, 05:22 PM
Really? One Glock 20 will cause 150+ fps drop compared to another Glock 20 for only Double Taps when all other brands are close to advertised claims? Really?



I've never seen 150 fps difference, but I've seen 100+fps. between different, but identical rifles. I know that 100 fps difference can be seen with large swings in temperature. 50 fps difference between 2 different chronographs, or even the same chronograph at different times of the day is very possible. Combine several of these factors and you can get very different velocity readings

Do you own a chronograph? Have you actually tested the ammo, or are you basing your opinions on a "you tube" posting? I don't know what is going on here, if anything. All I know is that Double Tap ammo is actually beating their advertised velocities in my guns, and in lots of other guys guns. If they are downloading their ammo, why does it not show up in all guns?

JERRY
April 5, 2012, 05:50 PM
jms, the DT ammo coming up short is the 10mm line up, i dont know about their others.

ive chronoed my DT 10mm ammo and it was on the money, my buddy who has the chrono had DT ammo in a white box (mine are in a black box), his DT ammo fell short by 125fps at times o i tried it in my gun and it was still falling short.

my "black box" DT ammo is a few years old, i dont know if his white box ammo was old or newer than mine, i didnt think to ask, but the boxes looked good so i just figured they changed their box.

intercooler
April 5, 2012, 06:17 PM
Yes I have a Chrony and I test about every week in all the calibers I own. In red... DoubleTap:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dHRYQjg2VzRjWEpUVlhXbjN0ZVMybFE#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=0

I'm adding Right2Bear 10mm next week and Uncle Ted's 10mm in July. If I hear back from DallasReloads I will get theirs and test it.

wild cat mccane
April 5, 2012, 07:41 PM
Well, if you continue to ignore EXPANSION in hollow points I'd like to address your next fault. Statistics.

When you chrony please provide all the accurate information of how many observations were in your sample, how many boxes you selected from, why you felt this was a sufficient number from the population, going to want to see your variation and standard deviation numbers, regression between different guns?...etc.

I'll take you to task on running a bogus sample when you get back to us while using a few boxes :D

*if I seem glib it is because you are ignoring the most critical factor (the hollow point, and the required different FPS numbers needed to activate sufficient expansion of each type of hollow point brand) and you have came in here being less than friendly)*

intercooler
April 5, 2012, 07:49 PM
Well Wild give me your budget and I will test until my guns are wore out. I have tested a plenty. You have any data to add? I highly doubt it :neener:

So many variables in expansion let's get past making real 10mm ammo first and not .40.


Hey you could get some of that blow your gun up BVAC 10mm ammo with the fine Armscor Phillipino
made brass ;)


What kind of expansion results can you add? You go first :banghead:

JERRY
April 5, 2012, 11:11 PM
wild cat mccane, in the real world the first bullet you shoot might be the only one you can get off. any, and i mean any round picked should meet the claims of the manufacturer.

if i have to select 5 random boxes and fire five random rounds from each box then tabulate the average velocity and toss out the extreme high and extreme low then what good is it for other than paper punching.

i need an ammo that the lowest chonoed round is still within reason of stated claims. and yes, DT and BB did switch bullets without telling folks. thats bad as well.

but i ask you again, why pay more for the same ammo Underwood sells for less?

a box of ammo is only as good as its weakest loading because that might be the one under the hammer.

Gtscotty
April 5, 2012, 11:48 PM
I have to say, I haven't tried BB or DT 10mm yet, and I probably won't, I'm pretty much sold on Underwood. I chrono'd his 180 and 135 gr loads in my stock G20 Barrel and in my 6" lone wolf barrel.

Approximate velocities (can't find my notes...):

180s (XTP): 1270 - 1310 in the stock barrel, 1300 - 1360 in the 6"
135s (nosler I think): 1550 - 1620 in the stock barrel, 1615 - 1670 in the 6"

I do like the fact that Underwood is very clear about what bullets are used in each load. I think those 180 XTP's are supposed to be a great 10mm hunting bullet. If I don't get around to loading any before I get a chance at hogs, I'll be comfortable using Underwood's loads.

harrygunner
April 6, 2012, 01:52 AM
A couple of months ago, I looked in a box of Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo in a Cabelas in Boise. The bullets were "Montana Gold".

I believe, several years ago Speer sent notices out about using their trade name "Gold Dot". So, vendors started using a more generic name, like "bonded JHP" (and controlled expansion instead of XTP). Unfortunately, listing generic names provided the chance to substitute other bullets.

Back when these companies switched to Montana Gold, I actually called the Montana Gold company and asked if their bullets would perform at 10mm speeds. I was told they had no data on the speed range over which their .400 bullets would perform.

BTW, I bought several hundred rounds of Underwood 10mm ammo since they tell you exactly what you'll be getting.

intercooler
April 6, 2012, 08:23 AM
Jerry is going to send me DT 135 and 165's. In exchange I will send back to him Underwood 135 and 165's. I'm going to video this and post here as well as my normal places. Testing:

- Remington 180gr FMJ
- Underwood 180gr TMJ
- Doubletap 135gr Nosler
- Underwood 135gr Nosler
- Doubletap 165gr Nosler
- Underwood 165gr JHP
- Right2BearArms 180gr FMJ
- HPR 180gr TMJ


Let me see what else...

brickeyee
April 6, 2012, 12:31 PM
Really? One Glock 20 will cause 150+ fps drop compared to another Glock 20 for only Double Taps when all other brands are close to advertised claims? Really?

Yes.

The loads are not using the same powder, and any number of very minor variations could alter how the powder burns and the velocity it delivers.

Even small variations in chamber size, rifling size, barrel and groove diameter, etc. can all affect how a powder burns.
ANYTHING that could alter the pressure as the bullet moves through the barrel can alter the final shape of the pressure curve created.

Maybe you barrel is 0.0001 larger near the muzzle, resulting in a drop in pressure when the bullet gets to that spot.
this is going to affect every powder differently.

Ever notice that even with 'identical' loads the velocity is not identical?
We fire multiple rounds and average the measured speed.

If everything was exactly the same every time their would be no variation among the 'same' ammunition in the same gun.

Let alone in another gun.

intercooler
April 6, 2012, 12:39 PM
Sorry but that is BS. Doesn't matter when they are fired from the same gun. As a matter of fact I exchange with David Sneed in California. I'm in Maryland and our numbers jive although he uses a G20 and I use a Witness. Only real difference we see is the extra .15" of barrel length giving me a slight boost.

Eric's Big Head
April 6, 2012, 12:58 PM
My original questin was to see if Double Tap are still cheating their customers with exagerated numbers. If they are up to par, I was interested in one of their other caliber since they are the only one that offers it.

I got to say that this became an interesting thread. The people that are in love with double tap give arguemnents such as (my interpretation) :

1) There are shooting conditions that only slows down DOUBLE TAPS by 150+ fps while the others live up to their claims

2) Who care if they lie about their numbers, they use superior hollow points and that's what counts even though that's not what you asked.

3) Who care about numbers, just buy it anyways because Doubler Taps are the most bestest bullets in the whole wide world.


Really? One Glock 20 will cause 150+ fps drop compared to another Glock 20 for only Double Taps when all other brands are close to advertised claims? Really?

Yes.

The loads are not using the same powder, and any number of very minor variations could alter how the powder burns and the velocity it delivers.

Even small variations in chamber size, rifling size, barrel and groove diameter, etc. can all affect how a powder burns.
ANYTHING that could alter the pressure as the bullet moves through the barrel can alter the final shape of the pressure curve created.

Maybe you barrel is 0.0001 larger near the muzzle, resulting in a drop in pressure when the bullet gets to that spot.
this is going to affect every powder differently.


You are too funny. How long have you been working for Double Tap?

intercooler
April 6, 2012, 04:12 PM
Nothing special really about the bullets. At any rate here is some DT videos for you. I will post mine here as well when I do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjhupTsuolo


View it and tell me if they hit those box flap numbers out of a G20 (what the rating is).

brickeyee
April 6, 2012, 05:24 PM
Doesn't matter when they are fired from the same gun.

Every gun has a different set of tolerances in its manufacture.

Chamber reamers start out on the high end of allowed diameter and are used until they wear enough to be on the small end of allowed diameter.

Getting the exact same velocity even shot to shot in the same gun is just luck.

JERRY
April 6, 2012, 05:43 PM
first, the 165gr. DT im sending in for test are Gold Dots i believe, i will have to check my statsh for sure.

second, if the DT are going 150 fps slower in a certain gun the other ammo brands will have a similar drop in velocity (%) wise IF it is a bbl issue.

DT 135 gr. @1600 fps = 1450 fps
ABC 135gr. @ 1600 fps = 1585 fps
XYZ 135gr. @ 1600 fps = 1596 fps

all from the same gun? let me guess, ABC and XYZ put grease on their bullets so they slide faster down the bbl.

i want ammo i can count on. if miniscule changes in ambient temp or humidity or barometric pressure or elevation or what ever the excuse is only effecting DT ammo and not the others, you have your choice made for you by the manufacturers.

intercooler
April 7, 2012, 11:40 AM
Here is some interesting reading. Go on Midway USA and look at the DoubleTap reviews. Mike wouldn't allow my reviews on his site but on Midway users are posting real data and results. I also see DT changed what results you can expect! LOL

I don't see anyone getting advertised numbers in all the different grain reviews:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/494773/doubletap-ammunition-10mm-auto-165-grain-brass-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-50

Seems most are getting 1300 FPS out of those 1425 FPS rated 165's :)

Kind of a waste of time doing them over again but want to get it on video.

Eric's Big Head
April 7, 2012, 03:52 PM
Those are some ridiculous excuses to defend Double Taps. Some of you guys are just silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjhupTsuolo

Winchester's 175 gr are faster than Double Tap's 155 gr that are labeled with a 1400fps claim.

Look at the chart towards the end of the video (4:53) and please explain with the same nonsence why Double Tap numbers are way low while others such as PMC and Hornady higher than there claim?

intercooler
April 7, 2012, 04:10 PM
I will do water jug expansion tests if anyone wants to offer up some DT hollow points. I just am not spending my cash on the junk. I will trade you ammo for it and I have many different HP's to throw in the mix, just no DT :what:

Stevie-Ray
April 7, 2012, 06:10 PM
Are Double Taps still "Inflating" their numbers? Why would you even care? If not, are you going to make a purchase? You've made it perfectly clear throughout this thread what you think of them and what you think of those that do like them. I've learned one thing for sure in this thread. Your handle seems to fit you to a tee.

Peter M. Eick
April 8, 2012, 07:07 AM
Anyone who owns a choro and has used it much will tell you that velocities vary a lot. I have no reason or experience to doubt DT claims.

If you trust your chrono so, how come my 4" diamondback will routinely shoot a round faster than 8 3/8" pre-27?

If you trust the chrono so, how come 3 different 38/44OD's will chrono the same load at 717, 742 and 862 fps?

If you trust the chrono so, how come 3 different 38/44HD's will chono the same load at 814, 830 and 742?

What I have learned is that some guns are fast, some are slow and that velocities that are published needed to be checked over my chrono to see how they are doing.

I should state that I have bought and used DT 10mm ammo and found it worked close enough to specifications for me.

intercooler
April 8, 2012, 08:28 AM
Well Peter lets focus on one gun yes? Make it your test mule and if that dt goes low in every bullet type but all the others test out fine. There's your sign!

Feanor
April 8, 2012, 03:19 PM
I carry Buffalo Bore's 180gr hardcast GC heavy .357 magnum load in a 3" S&W 686, this revolver is what I rely on in the bush, the 180 BB GC routinely chronos right at the 1300fps level(about 700 fpe)on my Pach II. This is exactly what BB claims it to be.

Peter M. Eick
April 8, 2012, 05:39 PM
I did test DT in my 10mm's and it ran +/- what was advertised. It just depended on if I shot it out of the 610, my Heavyweight monolith or the EAA Witness. Good stuff and it worked out of my guns on my chrono.

How has it worked for your guns over your chrono?

intercooler
April 8, 2012, 07:34 PM
It's all been posted here already. My 10mm and .357 data plus just go to Midway.com and look at all the reviews for DoubleTap ammo. Tons of info there.

ironhead7544
April 8, 2012, 08:11 PM
Speer did a test using six identical 6 inch .357 Magnum revolvers. Speeds varied 200 fps with some loads.
Also, you can get a bad box from any maker.

intercooler
April 8, 2012, 08:35 PM
Revolvers are a little different. I still can't get his numbers in a revolver! I'm still searching for a Chrony video of it making claims :confused:

intercooler
April 8, 2012, 11:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNXtvBhneM

.38 Super

Eric's Big Head
April 8, 2012, 11:33 PM
Why would you even care? If not, are you going to make a purchase? You've made it perfectly clear throughout this thread what you think of them and what you think of those that do like them. I've learned one thing for sure in this thread. Your handle seems to fit you to a tee.

I was interested in a particular round that only Double Tap produces currently.

I'm not bashing Double Tap since they already had (still) a bad reputation earned by cheating numbers, I was curious to whether they changed and did the right thing make making the products live up to their name or change the labeling to match consumers' tests OR they still hype up their numbers?

What I am bashing now is the nonsence used to defend one round but that same excuse does not seem to be effecting many other competitors' products thesame way.

It's like saying CAR A and CAR B both have a 150mph top speed. Cunsumers test show CAR A tops out at 120mph and CAR B tops out at 155mph when both cars are tested side-by-side at the same time.
Some of your defences sound like :

CAR A may have been traveling uphill
both cars are tested side-by-side at the same time
Wind plays a factor
both cars are tested side-by-side at the same time
barometric pressure
both cars are tested side-by-side at the same time
Humidity
both cars are tested side-by-side at the same time
One barrel is different from another barel (sorry, not barrel, I meant test track)
both cars are tested side-by-side at the same time
:D

TimboKhan
April 9, 2012, 12:04 AM
Honestly, this is an issue that I don't care about, because velocity in and of itself doesn't mean a whole lot to me. 1500 fps or 1100 fps aren't going to decide a gunfight, or more as is more likely, punch paper any differently. I confess I don't know the minimum velocity it takes a .45 or a 9mm to punch through a bad guy convincingly, but I suspect it is much lower than any of the "standard" velocities listed. Also, bullet design means more to me than speed, which is why I routinely carry hydra-shoks. I know there are "better" bullets out there, but hydra-shoks are a proven design that work so I use them.

What I do care about is consistency. I don't care if something is 200 fps slower as long as it is consistently 200 fps slower. Again, I load hydrashoks because I am rarely more than 50 fps +/- off from box to box, and that isn't enough to get my panties in a wad. 200 fps over or under is.

With all that being said, I do feel like if a particular brand of ammo advertises a particular velocity, then that should be a relatively accurate and consistent metric. Relative being maybe 100 fps either way. It really has more to do with being able to deliver on claims to me, so while in many ways this argument means nothing to me, the basic tenet of getting what your paying for does ring a bell with me.

intercooler
April 9, 2012, 01:34 AM
That's where at least in this case you don't really want your 10mm to be watered to .40... just shoot the .40 then. Same for someone loading a +P and you are paying for that designation only to have it be no better or stronger than regular.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 11:44 AM
Jmr40? Brickeye?

Where'd you guys go?

ATLDave
April 10, 2012, 11:55 AM
I have no dog in this fight and no independent knowledge, but it sounds to me as if DT's issues may be inconsistency. Some report good chrono results, others bad results. For those reporting bad results, comparisons with other brands would seem to eliminate "slow barrels" or atmospheric conditions or chrono calibrations as issues. It looks as though DT has released some batches that are below spec in terms of velocity, and some that are in/near/on spec. If that were the case, the good news would be that it does not indicate that DT are intentionally misleading people with their published numbers; the bad news would be that they appear to have some QC issues. At least that's what I would think based on the information in this thread, assuming that all THR'ers are being honest.

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 12:32 PM
You are still consistently ignoring that the hollow point bullet design is more important than feet per second...in a HOLLOW POINT.

You haven't even addressed or shown any proof that you know anything about the needed FPS to successfully activate each make of hollow point used in the different bullet companies you are supporting and railing against.

Quite frankly, if a Gold Dot opens up and expands to .7" with only 900 fps, but a Buffalo Bore bullet goes 1300 fps with a generic bullet...I still don't care if it goes 1300 fps because you left out that generic bullets don't expand well under any fps.

Snowdog
April 10, 2012, 01:56 PM
This is the reason I held off on the purchase of 200gr SWC .40S&W that I planned to employ in my Steyr M40 for trail use. The numbers looked great, but with a little research I found many complaints from those that actually ran them over their chronographs.

Every single report I could find where the DT advertised velocities were compared to the numbers from personal chronographs, the numbers were way low. I figured a couple bad lots made it out the doors. I guess this is a problem with the 10mm too.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 02:06 PM
You are still consistently ignoring that the hollow point bullet design is more important than feet per second...in a HOLLOW POINT.

Then Double tap should state that on their package.

Instead of Double Tap's 155 gr that are labeled with a 1400fps,
It should be labeled Double Tap's 155 gr @ 1150fps with superior hollow points

I'm not argueing whether their choice of hollow points are good or bad. You're just bringing up something off topic.

intercooler
April 10, 2012, 02:10 PM
Wild I was still waiting for your data ;)


I don't care to reinvent the wheel. Tons of videos on YouTube of DT HP's being tested in wax, gel, metal, dirt, etc... None of the packaging gives expansion data. It does however mention muzzle velocity and energy which doesn't meet up. :eek:

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 02:49 PM
Wait. Excuse me? you were waiting for my data?

You guys are worrying about advertised FPS as if FPS is important. You are already in the premium self defense range. FPS at this point is the mosquito bite of a difference.

That may sound outrages but you are dickering over an inter-quartile range spread of 100fps in the good self defense range.

That's great for you, but you are missing that a Gold Dot is going to perform superior in that lower FPS range than a generic hollow point in the higher FPS range.

Like talking to a dumb wall.

intercooler
April 10, 2012, 03:02 PM
Why yes of course! Please lay on us your vast hollow point data. We got the FPS/Energy covered.

Gold Dot =?
Barnes =?
Nosler =?
XTP =?

Got you started on a list there. Please fill in with expansion numbers, media and retained weights. Thanks for the info! :o

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 03:08 PM
I asked you for this, since in a HOLLOW POINT this is all that matters.

Dear lord, you just stole my point and are acting like your original post has relevancy.

Are they wrong on their advertisement? Possibly. Does this make their HOLLOW POINT inferior? Not sufficient. You haven't proved they preform less as a HOLLOW POINT than say Buffalo Boar that may not have lied on FPS but does perform worse with a generic HOLLOW POINT bullet.

Have you done this? NO.

Essentially what you meant to/should have been testing all along is a gel expansion test.

intercooler
April 10, 2012, 03:17 PM
That wasn't what this thread and intent was. Who has the most premium hollow point. It was about the claims and you got off on DT HP being supreme. Get back on topic man!

As this thread pertains it isn't about HP. Just drop that portion. It could be about Hard Cast for all purposes. Many places use the same HP's and get the numbers so let that go.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 03:21 PM
You guys are worrying about advertised FPS as if FPS is important. You are already in the premium self defense range. FPS at this point is the mosquito bite of a difference

No sir, YOU keep straying off topic. I started this thread to see if the numbers that Double Tap prints on their package is STILL exagerated or not.

If FPS does not matter so much, Double Tap should have no issue lowering their printed numbers the realm of reality. Seriously? 155gr at 1400 fps when tests rates it at 1150 fps?!?!

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 03:33 PM
But if the DT is combined with a superior bullet than those with a 300 increase in FPS over the DT, is the faster bullet always better?

No.

So I agree they could be off, though your test questions a statistical population sample like no tomorrow.

The point is you are claiming the Double Tap bullet is less of a bullet. No. They FPS may be off, but the intended effect can still be GREATER than that of a faster moving bullet.

And then we had the claim that DT did a bullet switcharoo first. No. That was Buffalo Bore. They don't tell you this other than a picture and still have the same data up from the Gold Dots.

intercooler
April 10, 2012, 03:45 PM
Cliff Notes: Shuck and Jive LOL

Move on to the real life claimed ammos!

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 03:48 PM
But if the DT is combined with a superior bullet than those with a 300 increase in FPS over the DT, is the faster bullet always better?

No.

So I agree they could be off

That's all that matter in this thread. That fact that Double Tap are still lying to their customers about their pruduct or not.

If you want to focus on the bullet type, start your own thread.

Loosedhorse
April 10, 2012, 03:49 PM
go to Midway.com and look at all the reviews for DoubleTap ammo. Tons of info there.Midway lists DTs 135 10mm as 4.5/5 stars. The two guys who didn't like it didn't like the bulged cases (1 review) and primers unseating (1 review :what:), which no one else experienced (and no one here has mentioned)--neither sounds like a problem of under-powered ammo, though. :D

The only chrono mentioned was 1542 for 5 shots (1600 claimed). Seems within gun differences.

As for chronos, can also depend on the set up. First screen too close can make the numbers look bad.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 04:00 PM
Brickeye, JMR40, Wild Cat McCane

Please explain why ONLY Double Taps are producing low numbers compared to others in a side-by-side test?

I ask you three because you three seem to either deflect the issue with other off topic subjects or come up with excuses why numbers may conclude low but exclude the competition.

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 04:04 PM
Eric...PLEASE FOR THE LOVE explain why what you are measuring matters? Whoever buys self defense hollow point ammo based on FPS alone doesn't understand how HOLLOW POINTS work.

You are missing the MAJOR point of a hollow point, the hollow point. FPS do not matter after a point when using the best tip technology. Low FPS can be made up with a better hollow point.

You can get super FPS with a generic hollow point and still end up with the performance of a full metal jacket bullet--no expansion.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 04:19 PM
Midway lists DTs 135 10mm as 4.5/5 stars. The two guys who didn't like it didn't like the bulged cases (1 review) and primers unseating (1 review ), which no one else experienced (and no one here has mentioned)--neither sounds like a problem of under-powered ammo, though.


So, Double Tap pushes loads to the limits where cases bulge and primers are unseating yet they can't produce numbers?

Maybe it's just not quality brass they use?



Here is what I found from Midwayusa's site. This is just 3 out of the first 4 reviews

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&dimensionids=4294846042&newcategorydimensionid=10037

Scott H. of Small Town, OH
1 starsDate Posted: 9/6/2011The first order of four boxes of this load went great they were accurate and feed flawless. My second order in late 2010 did not fare so well, ended up having two case head ruptures, got ammo replaced by Double Tap, had another rupture, sent my Delta Elite back to Colt, gun was returned new everything except frame and with 6 proof rounds fired at the factory with no problem, retried the Double Tap and got two severely case head bulges within three shots. Sent ammo back To Double Tap and since they never bothered to get back with me on what the problem was I have not bothered to place another order with them. I have shot over a thousand rounds of other brands including Buffalo Bore and have never had another problem

Phil Dehne of Toledo, OH
2 starsDate Posted: 5/2/2011Purchased these thinking they were using XTP's based on reviews here and elsewhere. What I got were brass jacketed HP's, some folks say they are Golden Sabers, some say they are Montana Gold. I don't know for sure what they are but they definitely are not XTP's. With that said, Doubletap does not specify what brand or make of bullet they are using, just that it is a controlled expansion bullet. I was initially planning on using this in my carry gun, but I'd prefer to stick to something using a bullet with some sort of a track record (XTP, Gold Dot, etc) I ran a mag of these through a stock Glock 20 over a chronograph and the fastest clocked in at 1207fps. A far cry from the 1350fps listed on the box. Accuracy was quite good, about 2.5-3 inches grouping at 25 feet offhand. This would probably tighten up if using a rest.

Tom Hsu of Tallahassee, FL
3 starsDate Posted: 6/11/2010My two boxes of Double Tap 180 grain Controlled Expansion ammo came loaded with Remington Golden Saber bullets. According to my Oehler 35 chronograph set 10' from the firing line, this ammo gave an average of 1132 fps with a high of 1161 FPS and a low of 1087 fps which is much lower than the 1350 fps listed on the box. My pistol was a Glock model 20 with stock barrel. Those who want this ammo because of it's claimed higher velocity should do their own testing before depending on it. Accuracy wasn't great with 5" groups at 25 yards.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 04:22 PM
You are missing the MAJOR point of a hollow point

No, you are missing that point. Is DOUBLE TAP still lying to their customers about their VELOCITY?

That was the original question that started this thread. You are deflecting and avoiding that question.

intercooler
April 10, 2012, 04:23 PM
Of course it matters! You are paying $50 a box for something that is supposedly something. I don't know, better HP's, premium, something. Yet it's not.

For hunting you need that oomph! For SD not so much so and I am fine with a $30 box of Hydra-Shok 180's or Corbon DPX for the same. Oddly they also meet advertised.

I have no good reason to buy a DT anything. Just nothing that I can't duplicate for 1/2 the cost and feel better about.

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 04:24 PM
Eric. Does velocity matter?

intercooler
April 10, 2012, 04:27 PM
All this DT talk has me upset. I'm off to buy some Underwood and start feeling better. Peace out!

jaktime
April 10, 2012, 04:30 PM
I'm suprised no one has mentioned corbon at all ....
if it was mentioned I missed it sorry...

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 04:31 PM
That is so strange...

In the Underwood 9mm section they have a hollow point and a Gold Dot hollow point.

The Gold Dot is nearly double the cost. Hum... I wonder why?

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 04:53 PM
Eric. Does velocity matter?


Apparently not. That's why Double Tap prints exaggerated numbers and that's ywhy you defend them by changing the subject

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 04:55 PM
circular logic.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 05:12 PM
Wild cat mccane, I ask you this

Brickeye, JMR40, Wild Cat McCane

Please explain why ONLY Double Taps are producing low numbers compared to others is a side-by-side test?

I ask you three because you three seem to either deflect the issue with other off topic subjects or come up with excuses why numbers may conclude low but exclude the competition.

Loosedhorse
April 10, 2012, 05:21 PM
So, Double Tap pushes loads to the limits where cases bulge and primers are unseating yet they can't produce numbers? Well, that pretty much confirms this thread is a hatchet job.

The fact that only one person is mentioning problems with primers suggests to me a problem with a gun, not a problem with ammo. As to bulged cases, I've seen that reported with Glock factory barrels and lots of ammo (including SwapFox and Buffalo Bore).

And as I said, I think that getting within 60 fps of a claimed 1600 fps is a difference that is better explained by different guns than assumptions of dishonesty.

Just to be clear, I didn't start out this thread with an assumption that your motives were dishonest...but the evidence (like your cherry-picked negative Midway reviews, while there are also lots of postitive reveiws of DT at Midway) allows me now to conclude that this thread should have been titled, "How awful can I make DT ammo look if I really try."

Enjoy.

Stevie-Ray
April 10, 2012, 07:40 PM
Nothing special really about the bullets. At any rate here is some DT videos for you. I will post mine here as well when I do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjhupTsuolo


View it and tell me if they hit those box flap numbers out of a G20 (what the rating is). Do you mind telling me what that video proves? Suppose I take 2 of my pet loads, one for 1175 fps and one for 1250 fps and use them for that video and tell everybody that these are tests for DT and Winchester, simply because, oh I don't know, maybe I have a beef with Mike McNett. Nobody knows whether I've even opened those DT boxes, other than to take one of each out for the cameras. Anybody that thinks this is proof positive of anything needs to buy my goods immediately-no questions asked.:rolleyes: Get real.

Think about that when you make your own videos.

Eric's Big Head
April 10, 2012, 07:48 PM
Well, that pretty much confirms this thread is a hatchet job.

The fact that only one person is mentioning problems with primers suggests to me a problem with a gun, not a problem with ammo. As to bulged cases, I've seen that reported with Glock factory barrels and lots of ammo (including SwapFox and Buffalo Bore).

The Bulge/Primer issue was posted by someone else who was saying how good the product is. How funny is that.

And as I said, I think that getting within 60 fps of a claimed 1600 fps is a difference that is better explained by different guns than assumptions of dishonesty.

I posted a video of test done. Out of 30 different 10mm rounds, only Double Tap fall way below par.

Just to be clear, I didn't start out this thread with an assumption that your motives were dishonest...but the evidence (like your cherry-picked negative Midway reviews, while there are also lots of postitive reveiws of DT at Midway) allows me now to conclude that this thread should have been titled, "How awful can I make DT ammo look if I really try."


You look up randon videos so I won't cherry pick. Is that fair enough? If Double Tap is honest about their numbers, please pull up tests done by the public that shows just that. I can't find one so I asked here and it let to this.



There are a few of you dropping to your knees in front of Double Tap's and mimicing a pigeon feeding the way you defend this, oh dare I say it "corrupt company" that refuses to label their package honestly.

meanmrmustard
April 10, 2012, 08:20 PM
So don't buy it. If Double Tap has pissed in your Cheerios, then find a factory load that doesn't supposedly lie about the high points or shortcomings of their product. You're trolling for an argument :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, you could be taking the time to write a well thought out letter discussing in length your concerns to the big wigs at Double Tap, in turn getting info straight from the horses mouth.

wild cat mccane
April 10, 2012, 10:14 PM
Actually I have done nothing but attack Buffalo Bore.

Buffalo Bore has posted on their website expansion data from their ammo with Gold Dot bullets, but you are less than likely to get those Gold Dot bullets from them.

So their website is unequivocally lying about the worst thing you can lie about in hollow points, EXPANSION.


You are picking a fight, that may be true, but in the end has no bearing on performance of a HOLLOW POINT. At a point, FPS do not matter with superior bullet technology. You can't prove anything with a limited sampling. You may be right about it though. But that doesn't mean a bullet moving faster with a crappier generic HOLLOW POINT is going to perform better.

The aggressiveness of your approach is questionable. Stop assuming we love DT. I have never used them. I'm attacking you because your test is faulty, your hypothesis is unimportant, and your conclusion is crap.

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 12:27 AM
Oh BTW, I did address Mike in his section on the 10mm forum and so did some others. It sat there forever and eventually they did away with the whole entire section. Plenty of people have asked and he has been MIA for a long time. Like I said, he wouldn't post my reviews and my last order I attached a note at the bottom which went unanswered. On the other hand I have had little problem getting Kevin on the phone or many of the others. Nothing he makes I can't get from Kevin if I or anyone else asks.


I'm sure he probably comes on here every so often and looks. Heck... someone direct him here if you know him. I would love to hear his side of what happened to the DoubleTap which back in the day supposedly did well.

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 12:31 AM
Damn he has a FB. I'm not a Panzy so I posted it to see:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/doubletapammo

SharkHat
April 11, 2012, 12:39 AM
Original question: "Does Double Tap ammo live up to its advertised FPS ratings, as given on the box"

Wildcat's continued rant: "Buffalo Bore HPs don't expand"

Just give it up already if you can't stay on topic. I know the OP listed several other brands in the post, but the question was strictly about whether or not the ammo met stated ratings.

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 01:10 AM
LOL


Well if you have a 10mm stay tuned for a video I'm going to do tomorrow. I will be testing Right2Bear 10mm. Supposedly real 10mm 1300 FPS/180gr. We will see!

JERRY
April 11, 2012, 03:59 AM
so, back on topic, the question is does DT meet advertised claims?

the answer i have is they fall substantially short of their advertised claims in 10mm.

Eric's Big Head
April 11, 2012, 10:59 AM
So don't buy it. If Double Tap has pissed in your Cheerios, then find a factory load that doesn't supposedly lie about the high points or shortcomings of their product. You're trolling for an argument

I'm trolling for an arguement? I asked if so-and-so is still the case and JMR40, Brickeye, and Wild Cat Mccane are the ones going off topic with their senceless logic and it's their senceless logic is what I'm questioning and proving wrong.

I'm the troll because JMR40, Brickeye, and Wild Cat Mccane steered this conversation into a different direction that makes Double Tap look even worse?

Meanwhile, you could be taking the time to write a well thought out letter discussing in length your concerns to the big wigs at Double Tap, in turn getting info straight from the horses mouth.


I could have gone straight to the horses mouth, I guess. The same horse that I realize still lies. The same horse that was mentioned here that they stopped responding once this topic came up.

Either way, seems like the horse's puppets have come to it rescue here and are doing one horrible job.

brickeyee
April 11, 2012, 11:56 AM
I asked if so-and-so is still the case and JMR40, Brickeye, and Wild Cat Mccane are the ones going off topic with their senceless logic and it's their senceless logic is what I'm questioning and proving wrong.

So sorry that the reality of different guns producing different velocities is lost on you.

JERRY
April 11, 2012, 01:38 PM
the boxes
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/100_9105.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/100_9106.jpg
the lot numbers(?)
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/100_9108.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/100_9107.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/100_9109.jpg
bagged and ready to ship this weekend.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/100_9110.jpg

all together 25 rounds.
5 rounds of DT 135gr. Nosler.
5 rounds of DT 165gr. bonded(gold dots).
5 rounds of PMC El Dorado Star fire 180gr.
5 rounds of Rem UMC 180 fmj.
5 rounds of blazer 200gr. fmj.


all ammo stored the same way in the same location in the same fashion, and bought about the same time. ***note: DT ammo boxes do not have lot numbers on them. i understand that DT now uses white boxes for their ammo. this might be when they started cutting back on velocities?

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 01:56 PM
Jerry are you sending me all those for the video?

I have another member on the 10mm forum that will be sending two DT loadings. I will get a picture of his boxes and I almost know they are recent, not black box.


So we will have different lots! Different times.... Could be fun! ;)

Eric's Big Head
April 11, 2012, 02:13 PM
Here we go again. Deflection.

So sorry that the reality of different guns producing different velocities is lost on you.

Please explain why ONLY Double Taps are producing low numbers compared to others in a side-by-side test?

I ask you three because you three seem to either deflect the issue with other off topic subjects or come up with excuses why numbers may conclude low but exclude the competition.

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 04:10 PM
Just got the Right To Bear ammo from UPS. It's Starline brass so if it tests out at 1300 FPS tomorrow... good source!

Put pics here:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/EAA-Firearms/206257602745613

Eric's Big Head
April 11, 2012, 06:45 PM
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/EAA...06257602745613

That's a SWEET gun!!!!

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 06:52 PM
Thanks! Both of them are setup about perfect. I'm ready to rock them tomorrow with the new ammo!

If I get enough ammo I may try the Hunter 6" with DoubleTap.

JERRY
April 11, 2012, 07:24 PM
YES, all those are for your video. 5 rounds of each loading selected from different boxes for consistancy/variance testing. will get them in the mail to you this weekend.

i would prefer you shoot them all through a stock bbl G20 with a 20# recoil spring as DT states they do. that way the velocity is from an apples to apples gun.

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 07:47 PM
Don't have a stock G20 :eek: My Match gives within 30-40 FPS of what David gets with his G20 in the videos. It should read a little higher so that gives DT the benefit of the doubt. If you would rather send them to David I will let him know. Let me know ASAP.

JERRY
April 11, 2012, 09:37 PM
Is david the guy testing with the chrony in the desert?

Ive seen his work but i've never conversed with him.

To be as fair as possible i'd rather he test the ammo i have as he uses the same platform dt says they use and he is at a similar elevation and humidity which dt says effects their ammo, since the are in the high desert also.

Can you put me in contact with david? If not i will send the ammo i have to you because your elevation and humidity is about like mine.

Thanks.

intercooler
April 11, 2012, 09:45 PM
I sent him the info on this. He will PM you and I have the other member on the 10mm forum giving me DT in an exchange. We will have it 2X covered!

JERRY
April 11, 2012, 09:48 PM
Im on that forum as well under this same name, not often, very slow there.

Ive seen you work, it is good, but in all fairness the same platform should be used to negate any excuses.

If i dont hear from david i will send this ammo to you since youre testing "white box" dt as well.

drsjr1969
April 12, 2012, 12:01 AM
Jerry,
I'm David the one with all the Glock 20 video's on youtube.

Jesse notified me on my 10mm ammo facebook page that you were interested in have some ammo tested.

JERRY
April 12, 2012, 04:18 AM
That is correct.

I have some "black box" double tap along with a few other rounds. I listed them a page back for details.

Pm me your mailing address and i will get them sent to you this weekend.

Also, once tested could you link your video to this site and thread?

Thanks.

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 07:57 AM
Here is the lineup for today Men. 180 Rightobear, Underwood 135, 165, 200...

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=3732347234269&set=o.2249047150&type=1&theater

Patrice
April 12, 2012, 09:31 AM
Hhmmm....Well, I thought it was the common, accepted, conventional wisdom now that DT's advertised velocities are more than significantly less than what is advertised. Personally, I have my doubts that the Glocks which DT uses to chrono their loads spits their bullets out at anywhere close to the advertised velocities.

Hey, but what the heck...Mike's a great guy (least that's what all his apologists say).:D--Patrice

Eric's Big Head
April 12, 2012, 10:51 AM
Hhmmm....Well, I thought it was the common, accepted, conventional wisdom now that DT's advertised velocities are more than significantly less than what is advertised. Personally, I have my doubts that the Glocks which DT uses to chrono their loads spits their bullets out at anywhere close to the advertised velocities.

Hey, but what the heck...Mike's a great guy (least that's what all his apologists say).--Patrice

That's hillarious, his apologists.

You know you're pissing off the 3 silly nonsense talking amigos right?

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 12:34 PM
Lined up and ready!

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/394297_3733791190367_1443679046_3501518_465132885_n.jpg

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 12:38 PM
Out of my Witness Match 4.75" barrel:

RightToBear 180gr (1300 FPS Rating): 1273, 1292, 1292, 1370, 1295. 1304.4 FPS/ 679.90 LBS
Underwood 135gr (1600 FPS Rating): 1688, 1671, 1656, 1681, 1683. 1675.8 FPS/ 841.65 LBS
Underwood 165gr (1400 FPS Rating): 1431, 1458, 1539, 1509, 1561. 1499.6 FPS/ 823.73 LBS
Underwood 200gr (1250 FPS Rating): 1210, 1239, 1198, 1225, 1228. 1220 FPS/ 660.85 LBS

It excites me to see more real 10mm hitting the market! Dallas Reloads is next.


YouTube video is coming. Turned out great and in HD! Taking forever because of it :(

Eric's Big Head
April 12, 2012, 12:52 PM
Intercooler, please explain why with those number ...

Underwood 135gr (1600 FPS Rating): 1688, 1671, 1656, 1681, 1683. 1675.8 FPS/ 841.65 LBS

... why isn't the package labelled at 1900fps.

Sorry, I answered my own question. It ain't Double Taps.

Just kidding here guys.

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 01:05 PM
Kevin has his stuff under-rated really. It's more in-line with the Glock 4.6" barrel which gives about 30 FPS less than what I get with mine if sprung right (lock-up).

I would rather under-rate and over-perform! Heck even the new kid on the block RightToBear got theirs pretty spot-on!

Videos is 40% now :(

ATLDave
April 12, 2012, 01:06 PM
Underwood 165gr (1400 FPS Rating): 1431, 1458, 1539, 1509, 1561. 1499.6 FPS/ 823.73 LBS

Great test, man! The one disconcerting thing that jumps out is the somewhat high spread on that Underwood 165gr test. 1431 to 1561 is 130 fps in spread. Any signs you were getting a premature unlocking? Any sense (before looking at the readings) that some in that string were "hotter" than others?

Thanks again for doing that.

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 01:11 PM
Don't think so but maybe you can tell something from the video when it finishes. My Match has the flat bottom firing pin stop from Henning and a 22lb Wolff extra-power recoil spring so it's set up to rock! The 135's were awful steady and it's got more pop.

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 02:34 PM
Finally! Maybe next time no HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTFyKU1ZAwU&context=C49903ebADvjVQa1PpcFNVJZsaN7UBry2ThzobsoIEcKh3CqNym_U=

Updated sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=0

ATLDave
April 12, 2012, 04:57 PM
Thanks. Good info re: the gun's setup, too. I've got a beefy spring in my 10mm Match, but haven't fooled with the firing pin stop - do you feel like that changes anything? Recoil impulse feel any different?

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 05:22 PM
It does. Less felt recoil and doesn't sling the brass as far. Put all the info on the EAA firearms Facebook page.

harrygunner
April 12, 2012, 06:55 PM
'intercooler', thanks for that video. Enjoyed the way the structure holding the chrono display vibrated with each shot.

I like Underwood's ammo. Happy to see it meets advertised specs. I have over 500 rounds of Underwood 180gr, a mix of GD and XTP.

All my Double Tap ammo came in black boxes, bought between 2005 and 2007. Here's a photo of about half of it. The rest is at my other place.

All the DT ammo is 180gr except, a for box of 215gr WFNGC hardcast bought in the summer of 2006. DT stopped making the 215gr hardcast. Those and the DT 200gr WFNGC hardcast shoot fine from my Glock 29 and my 1911.

I'd like to send some for your next test. I'll PM you for an address.

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 08:16 PM
Cool! I know you paid more than what Underwood or some of the others are so I will send more than you send me back.

My offer is open to anyone with a 10mm ammo not on that list or DoubleTap. Swap you out!

harrygunner
April 12, 2012, 08:52 PM
No need to swap. Appreciate the effort you put into the videos.

I just looked at one of my orders for 500 rounds of DT Gold Dot from 2007. They cost $239.95 back then. I wanted to buy more. Around that time, I called and emailed and even waited in Cedar City, UT while on a trip to Wyoming. I wanted to pack some in the SUV. No response over a three week period, so I stopped buying from Mike.

Can't figure out his business practices. He hasn't logged into some sites, with lots of supporters, in five years.

Post office is closed now. They'll be mailed tomorrow, Friday.

P.S. Since you have a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Mag, I'll throw in a couple cartridges of Buffalo Bore's 340gr +P LBT-LFN GC. Just brace yourself. :evil:

intercooler
April 13, 2012, 12:27 PM
Oh wow! I started on the .44 list but have a long way to go on that one!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dFlJSEh0WWctdThTRGlpaFljS2x4VlE#gid=0

I will test the .44's on video with some other offerings as well. Appreciate that!


As for Mike he hasn't added any reviews on his site for 2 years. Recently I saw the 10mm board dumped his section, no response on Facebook... Who cares at this point.

JERRY
April 14, 2012, 12:45 AM
As for Mike he hasn't added any reviews on his site for 2 years. Recently I saw the 10mm board dumped his section, no response on Facebook... Who cares at this point.

seems hes got plenty of kool-aid drinkers to keep him afloat.

hardluk1
April 14, 2012, 08:09 AM
Dt also use's nosler bullets. When the market dry's up you have to get something worth while and there not the only ones that get screwed over by speer.

The 44 mag loads I have used of theres have been spot on frt advertized velocity, even exceding it a bit. Ma be the bad readings some get have to do with the chrony's and there bullet placement ,shadeweather ,who knows. I do know a chrony can read excedingly low at times. Thats why you shoot more than a one or two round.

intercooler
April 14, 2012, 08:45 AM
Well, I know David's G20 gives about 30-50 FPS less than my Match due to the barrel being .125" shorter. He also shoots a bone stock G20 which SwampFox and a few others showed the hotter loadings need a 20lb + recoil spring to stay in lock-up. The info put out said that alone "COULD" lose you 50 FPS. But none of that would apply to revolvers! My GP100 has a tight cylinder gap (which is somewhat the loss mechanism in the revolver) and I don't get his 4" GP100 numbers either.
I really wish he would just show up (McNett) and talk openly about his ammo. Maybe early on he really did load things to box spec and all was good. Maybe he had a few episodes with G20/G29 or Deltas like SwampFox or others had experiencing bulges or Kabooms. At that point he scaled the ammo back and never had to put a warning about shooting his ammo out of these platforms. Only problem is he had his boxes (maybe thousands) printed with old specs and never changed them either. Would have been no problem... re-do the specs and print new boxes or issue warnings and keep things the way they were loaded back in the day.
Buffalo Bore kept their loadings the same issuing warnings and how the guns had to be set up on their website. Buffalo Bore is pretty good to tell you also what revolvers you can/can't shoot their heavy revolver ammo out of. After Mike Williard (SwampFox) had a G29 Kaboom and some other issues he wanted contacted first about the proper load and issued all kinds of warnings. He only changed his loadings for those who needed it and kept the good stuff the same (thankfully!).


Then you have Kevin Underwood. He has put the warning on his sight and has the full-boogie ammo for those with platforms set to handle it. His ratings are pretty spot on and most of the time less than what it will actually give. He went one step further though and made ammo specifically for Deltas/Glocks/Poor support and labeled it as such with the downloaded specs.

I know my Match is set up to handle it no sweat and optimized for heavy loads so if the DoubleTap doesn't hit box numbers in it... won't in any!

HKGuns
April 14, 2012, 09:50 AM
How bout ya'll take this baloney back to gLoCk talk?

JERRY
April 14, 2012, 12:26 PM
How bout ya'll take this baloney back to gLoCk talk?

if youre not interested in independent chrono readings why are you here trolling?

jem375
April 14, 2012, 01:26 PM
I don't know about Underwoods shipping prices, I went to buy a box of ammo for $23 and the shipping was going to be over $11, no thanks...

meanmrmustard
April 14, 2012, 01:39 PM
if youre not interested in independent chrono readings why are you here trolling?
Agreed.

JERRY
April 14, 2012, 02:20 PM
I don't know about Underwoods shipping prices, I went to buy a box of ammo for $23 and the shipping was going to be over $11, no thanks...


$33.00/50 rounds shipped to your door isnt a bad price for full powered 10mm ammo.

who else matches that?

JERRY
April 14, 2012, 02:22 PM
drsjr1969, ammo shipped today. please provide a link on this thread once youve shot it.

thanks.

intercooler
April 14, 2012, 03:14 PM
HK,

What's a GlockTalk?


Jem375,


Who orders a single box of ammo when doing on-line? I usually always always order at least 3 since shipping is the same regarless of quantity to a point. I generally just buy bulk but if I want to test a one-off I get a single and just pay it. $35 a box of Underwood shipped and DoubleTap is $14 more than that with no shipping LOL D
Darn by the time I pay 6% sales tax and burn $4.00 in gas plus an hour of my time to go get it at WalMart... seems pretty okay in my book!

jem375
April 14, 2012, 08:12 PM
HK,

What's a GlockTalk?


Jem375,


Who orders a single box of ammo when doing on-line? I usually always always order at least 3 since shipping is the same regarless of quantity to a point. I generally just buy bulk but if I want to test a one-off I get a single and just pay it. $35 a box of Underwood shipped and DoubleTap is $14 more than that with no shipping LOL D
Darn by the time I pay 6% sales tax and burn $4.00 in gas plus an hour of my time to go get it at WalMart... seems pretty okay in my book!
well, one reason is that they only had 1 box of 223 55 gr. V-Max on hand. I only wanted to try that particular ammo to see how accurate it was compared to my handloads. $11 shipping by UPS is not good.... I'm thinking of ordering other calibers but probably later on in the month..

jem375
April 14, 2012, 08:17 PM
$33.00/50 rounds shipped to your door isnt a bad price for full powered 10mm ammo.

who else matches that?
Is that with shipping included??

intercooler
April 15, 2012, 01:22 AM
Product Information
Product Name Part No. Quantity Item Price Total Price
10mm Auto 135 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 50 2 $27.71 $55.42
10mm Auto 165 Grain Total Metal Jacket Box of 50 1 $25.00 $25.00
9mm Luger +P+ 115 Grain Gold Dot Jacket Hollow Point Box of 50 1 $25.93 $25.93

Subtotal: $106.35
Shipping & Handling: $15.99
Tax: $0.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Order Total: $122.34

That's my order from yesterday. $15.99 split out over 4 boxes so call it $30/box and if I went 5 boxes it wouldn't have changed I do believe. Sometimes you have to play with the shipping calculation system to see where the savings are triggered. Not worth getting in the car and paying tax over!

JERRY
April 15, 2012, 02:53 AM
Is that with shipping included??



I don't know about Underwoods shipping prices, I went to buy a box of ammo for $23 and the shipping was going to be over $11, no thanks...


according to you it is.

JERRY
April 18, 2012, 03:26 AM
drsjr1969, AMMO SHOULD HAVE ARRIVED TODAY.

intercooler
April 18, 2012, 05:35 AM
Great! Hopefully David will do a video this week and I should have those from harrygunner to do one as well. He is sending DoubleTap 180's so I will pair them with Underwood 180gr FMJ and Underwood 165 TMJ. The TMJ 180's from Underwood tested out a little better than the FMJ's last time out. If that holds true for the 165's I should get 1500 FPS.

I am going to do a 9mm video tomorrow using the XD since I haven't done as much 9mm as I wanted. I have Kevin's top notch 115gr Gold Dot +P+ in Starline brass rated at 1400 FPS/ 500LBS.

deadguy
April 18, 2012, 01:17 PM
IC - the boxes I have are indeed the black boxes. I will be getting them together today and hopefully shipping tomorrow.

intercooler
April 18, 2012, 04:27 PM
Someone else did a little testing. Very neat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3lSjm4V4SE&feature=colike

saltydog452
April 18, 2012, 05:53 PM
Yep, and Big Macs that you get across the counter don't look much like the illustrations you see over the counter.

intercooler
April 18, 2012, 06:47 PM
Yea but they taste like they should LOL

Weevil
April 18, 2012, 09:38 PM
How bout ya'll take this baloney back to gLoCk talk?


How about you go jump in a lake?

intercooler
April 18, 2012, 10:06 PM
Mike responded today on their Facebook page. He said it does meet box flap ratings. I asked if I could post my video good or bad on his page Friday :what:

intercooler
April 19, 2012, 11:43 AM
Got the ammo from harrygunner today. Thanks so much!

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/Intercooler2/2012-04-19112514.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/Intercooler2/2012-04-19112616.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/Intercooler2/2012-04-19112654.jpg

intercooler
April 19, 2012, 11:45 AM
Tomorrow looks like a great day for it too. Mid 60's and sunny!


I want to plan on doing the hardcast last. Question is if I get 5 good readings of the others out of the Match should I move on to the Hunter 6" or just get more Match 4.75" barrel data?

The 10's will be barking early in the morning tomorrow with some new ones :)

JERRY
April 19, 2012, 01:05 PM
im still waiting to hear from Dave regarding the ammo i sent him....:cool:

harrygunner
April 19, 2012, 03:16 PM
Glad the ammo arrived.

As far as which guns to use, is there a theme or core reason for your videos? Are they about the ammo or the guns?

Two barrel lengths might help others extrapolate your data to estimate how it might perform in their gun.

intercooler
April 19, 2012, 03:32 PM
David has the bone stock Glock 20. I have the witness and hunter. This gives us three platforms different lengths.

harrygunner
April 19, 2012, 06:26 PM
Very good, just throwing out some questions to ask that might help decide how to organize the videos.

drsjr1969
April 19, 2012, 08:44 PM
im still waiting to hear from Dave regarding the ammo i sent him....:cool:
Jerry,
Got your ammo days ago. I save all my empty boxes of ammo I have already tested so I will be able to show a box for each ammo except the Starfire from PMC. That one is the only one that will be new to my spreadsheet bringing the total to 60 different rounds tested.

Saturday I don't work so looks like a trip to the desert for me.

I'll post the results and video as soon as I can.

my spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjsXvXEryDJjdFhsRUcwSHRUcktCMmhOMTVFa25xa1E

intercooler
April 19, 2012, 09:22 PM
Cool! Can't wait until tomorrow!

JERRY
April 20, 2012, 06:58 AM
Dave thats great news. i really appreciate you taking the time to video and post your range trips.....

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 12:39 PM
Just got done. I missed my mark a couple of times today because I had a crowd watching. Usually it is just me but I didn't get there early enough and everyone wanted to see what I was doing (nerves). You will see in the video when it's done uploading but here are the numbers out of the Witness Elite Match 4.75" barrel, 22lb Wolff recoil spring:


DoubeTap 180gr GDJHP (Rated 1300 FPS): 1253, 1288, 1305, 1311, 1305. 1292.4 FPS/667.45 LBS
DoubleTap 180gr XTP-JHP (Rated 1350 FPS): 1301, 1295, 1277, 1276, 1284. 1286.6 FPS/661.47 LBS
Underwood 180gr TMJ (Rated 1300 FPS): 1450, 1334, 1362, 1351, 1393. 1378 FPS/758.79 LBS
Underwood 165gr TMJ (Rated 1400 FPS): 1513, 1530, 1423. 1488.6 FPS/811.69 LBS
DoubleTap 215gr Hardcast (Rated 1225 FPS): 1201 FPS/688.45 LBS

Only had two of the Hardcast and one didn't read.

Also did Kevins 9mm GDHP +P+ (Rated 1400 FPS) out of my 4" XD. I know it felt like a 10mm and numbers:

1553, 1522, 1509, 1548. 1533 FPS/599.97 LBS.

That's snappy and will upload the other two videos this evening. They take a while!

JERRY
April 20, 2012, 12:46 PM
seems that batch of DT was all what we wanted from the start!

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 12:52 PM
They were from 2005-2006. Don't have the current stuff and subtract 30-50 FPS for a Glock 20 4.6 barrel. David's numbers will be about that much lower than mine when he tests Saturday.

JERRY
April 20, 2012, 01:47 PM
the DT i sent him is at least 3 years old....id like to see a side by side of white box DT and black box DT....just to see.....

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 02:07 PM
What vintage is the white box? I haven't seen those and don't know where you can get them.

JERRY
April 20, 2012, 02:10 PM
i thought they were the newer version. maybe not....the three orders i did with DT about 3 years ago all came in black box. i have no idea when the white box got used.

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 02:14 PM
Video #1.

First 5 are DoubleTap 180gr GD
Second 5 are DoubleTap 180gr XTP
Third 5 are Underwood 180gr TMJ
Last 3 after I reset the Chrony are Underwood 165gr TMJ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6DmisPKL2w&context=C46ec24fADvjVQa1PpcFO9ruudFuM1fbDJDmWbNTS4qHZoffdsJAQ=

harrygunner
April 20, 2012, 02:25 PM
'intercooler', you've made a significant contribution to the DT performance saga. Perhaps video producers can document 'date of manufacture' along with temperature and altitude. It might put some light on why some people report performance meets specs while others clearly show results below spec.

I thank both you and 'drsjr1969' for your time in making all the videos.

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 03:11 PM
Thank you!

It helps the results to set the gun up with a spring to keep it locked. My guess is some that try the better ammos suffer worse results due to this.

harrygunner
April 20, 2012, 03:37 PM
Well, people talk about recoil springs helping to keep the barrel locked to the slide, but I don't buy it.

If that happened while the bullet was still in the barrel, the results would be spectacular and the shooter would know something bad had happened.

I did some calculations for a Government 1911 and saw that it would take a very heavy bullet moving pretty fast to push a slide back far enough for the barrel link to pull down the barrel while the bullet is still in the gun. No 10mm or even the .460 Rowland comes close to what it would take to make that happen.

I think it would be simpler to investigate manufacturer loads and see if they perform as advertised.

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 05:36 PM
True.

I still need to add annotations (found out how) and add some more details. Here is video #2 which is 4 DT GD, 5 DT XTP, 5 Underwood 165gr and after the failed 215gr DT I reset and got the one good 215gr reading:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF9r1tSM9QM&feature=context&context=C4d24205ADvjVQa1PpcFO9ruudFuM1fc_pQwlt3KHBbSo2uClkaNg=

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 05:39 PM
Here's the bonus video of the screaming little 9mm round. It felt like a 10mm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zaAaDlFmFo&feature=relmfu

deadguy
April 20, 2012, 07:14 PM
IC the 180/1305fps DT Noslers should be there tomorrow.

intercooler
April 20, 2012, 07:24 PM
Great!

I'm going to run those with the Precision One ammo I should get beginning of next week.

drsjr1969
April 22, 2012, 05:26 PM
video processing, but untill it gets posted here are the results in black and white.

temp 80 degrees
stock glock 20SF, 4.6 inch barrel, 17 lbs recoil spring

1. PMC STARFIRE 180 GR 1075.8 FPS @ 463 FT LBS
2. REM. UMC 180 GR 1127.8 FPS @ 508 FT LBS
3. BLAZER 200 GR 996.0 FPS @ 441 FT LBS
4. DOUBLE TAP 135 GR 1432.0 FPS @ 615 FT LBS
5. DOUBLE TAP 165 GR 1228.2 FPS @ 553 FT LBS

AND A PERSONAL RETEST OF MY OWN
6. BUFFALO BORE 220 GR 1116.0 @ 608 FT LBS

RESULTS HAVE BEEN RECALCULATED INTO SPREADSHEET

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjsXvXEryDJjdFhsRUcwSHRUcktCMmhOMTVFa25xa1E

atblis
April 22, 2012, 06:16 PM
Uhh, 1500+ fps out of a 4" 9mm. I bet that's a 50kpsi+ load.

harrygunner
April 22, 2012, 06:20 PM
'drsjr1969' Thanks for the results.

Re: calibrating your Glock - Buffalo Bore rates the 220gr hardcast at 1140 ft/s from a Glock 20. So, your results are reasonably close.

(Row 17 of the spreadsheet might need updating to that 1140 number.)

intercooler
April 22, 2012, 07:58 PM
50k PSI on the 9. Guess it is a good thing it is Starline brass but it didn't show any pressure signs and the brass ejected just great looking very good.

atblis
April 22, 2012, 10:49 PM
How close was the chronograph?

intercooler
April 22, 2012, 11:09 PM
Me or David? I haven't measured it but about 10-12 feet. I do it the same way stretching the cable that it come with out pretty taunt everytime.

JERRY
April 23, 2012, 12:56 AM
Well, i see i have plenty of low and mid powered 10mm ammo on hand.

If i start carrying my 10mm again for ccw i will load it up with underwood.

Dave, thanks for your efforts, i really appreciate them.

atblis
April 23, 2012, 11:20 AM
Me or David? I haven't measured it but about 10-12 feet. I do it the same way stretching the cable that it come with out pretty taunt everytime.
You I think. Was just wondering if the muzzle blast might be causing a high reading.

intercooler
April 23, 2012, 02:05 PM
No it's at max length away and the blast isn't causing an issue. I have shot from .22LR up to the .44 Magnum over it at the same distance and no issues. Readings are pretty darn repeatable as I retest many of the rounds over and over running them with new test ammos.

drsjr1969
April 25, 2012, 01:37 AM
http://youtu.be/-Wgf6y8SA38

here is the video

m2steven
April 25, 2012, 08:22 AM
Hickock45 did a video with his 10mm Glock and Double Tap ammo. He could not hit squat with the DT because the bullet was exiting the barrel so fast it failed to catch the rifling of the Glock barrel. When he switched to a Lone Wolf barrel with standard rifling he got superb accuracy. So I can assume DT ammo is very hot or their bullets are inferior (which I don't believe for a moment).

I'm not a huge fan of DT ammo for reasons I'll keep to myself, but Buffalo Bore ammo has been great in every caliber I've tested. It rocks. There is nothing wrong with Double Tap ammo but I personally think Buffalo Bore is better.

JERRY
April 25, 2012, 08:24 AM
Dave, thanks for your efforts.

it seems DT has been putting out that lower than claimed stuff for a while now.....its consistant, but not where they claim it should be.


anybody wanna trade for my stash of DT, Win STHP, Hornady, UMC Rem, CCI, for some Underwood? LOL.

intercooler
April 27, 2012, 11:43 AM
I would like to thank deadguy for the 10 DoubleTap 180gr Noslers he sent me for exchange! The second DoubleTap testing video from today is uploading. I had 10 perfect shots/readings and if I had to guess these are late edition DoubleTap. Here are the numbers:

1285, 1220, 1263, 1279, 1230, 1235, 1200, 1253, 1252, 1297. 1251.4 FPS/625.77 LBS.


Sure does look like a shift to me and no way will you get remotely close to these numbers out of a stock Glock 20 4.6" barrel.

intercooler
April 27, 2012, 12:00 PM
Pics, video, lot number, etc... are on there.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/EAA-Firearms/206257602745613

deadguy
April 27, 2012, 08:23 PM
I would like to thank deadguy for the 10 DoubleTap 180gr Noslers he sent me for exchange! The second DoubleTap testing video from today is uploading. I had 10 perfect shots/readings and if I had to guess these are late edition DoubleTap. Here are the numbers:

1285, 1220, 1263, 1279, 1230, 1235, 1200, 1253, 1252, 1297. 1251.4 FPS/625.77 LBS.


Sure does look like a shift to me and no way will you get remotely close to these numbers out of a stock Glock 20 4.6" barrel.

Not quite the claimed velocities but getting there. I'm content with this in my CCO until I get more Scottsdale.

Thank you IC for taking the time to test these.

lharrell79
April 28, 2012, 12:35 PM
Hey intercooler, are you still testing 357 mags, or are you through with them? I'm still trying to find a factory 158 load that hasn't been neutered.

intercooler
April 28, 2012, 03:11 PM
I'm still testing them and would love to find a good 158. So far though I have found nothing. Kevin's 125 screams but his 158 wasn't all there. Maybe I'm expecting too much?


Wonder who has the rep for a good 158? I'm willing to buy something for testing.

intercooler
April 28, 2012, 03:16 PM
Here is the sheet. The green highlighted ones were actually tested out of my 4" GP100. The others are compiled from other test results I have found. As it stands right now the DoubleTap 158's were the strongest out of my testing. If you look the Grizzly 180's did pretty well so if they make a 158 that may be worth a try.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dHRYQjg2VzRjWEpUVlhXbjN0ZVMybFE&pli=1#gid=0

intercooler
April 28, 2012, 03:20 PM
They have one:

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=GC357M158JHP

Given their 180's were rated 1350 but gave 1225 actual I would guess their 158's rated at 1400 would give 1275 FPS. Close to DoubleTap in a 4".

Doghandler
April 28, 2012, 04:22 PM
How close was the chronograph?

Do we need a SAAMI standard for that?

atblis
April 28, 2012, 07:32 PM
Why do you think I asked?

intercooler
July 8, 2012, 10:34 AM
Well Mike is now rating the 10mm on a 5" barrel. That's closer to matching box spec's and if he finds another 1/2" in there somewhere it may get darn close!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXV5mOl-EhU


I haven't checked to see if he added 1/2" to all calibers but this is a step in the right direction! ;)

seed
July 16, 2012, 09:35 AM
I pretty much read this whole thread, but it still leaves the question unanswered as far as I can tell: At what point (year) did DT begin to decelerated their rounds?...Or were they always slower than advertised? Does anyone know?

intercooler
July 17, 2012, 01:01 AM
Who knows and who cares. Anytime you change things after the fact you end up with pie on your face.

Better options exist for less $$$ these days.

seed
July 17, 2012, 01:52 AM
I only ask because I have a bunch of older DT HP's...

intercooler
July 17, 2012, 01:55 AM
You would almost have to test a couple to figure it out.

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