[DMH]

I may have posted this question before, but need advise on correct bullet diameter for this rifle. It is a 1894 model manufactured in 1895 and chambered in 44-40. I have shot and recovered bullets to inspect them. I have slugged the barrel and verified my results. I have a bore diameter of .421" and a groove diameter of .441" If I shoot semi-jacketed .429" bullets it sounds like a pop gun and the bullets show signs of gas blowing past between the rifling grooves. If I use .430" lead cast with black powder (ff g) they sound normal and no sign of gas blowing by the bullet. Question is should I try a gas check or a larger diameter lead bullet? Should I just stick with the black powder? I would like to try some smokeless and see if it will bump up to fill the rifling. Has anyone seen this much difference in bore to grove diameter before? Should I have a custom mold made? I don't see me shooting this a lot, but might be nice to have a proper mold matched to the rifle and keep it with the rifle.

David

[Jimro]

Try paper patching your .430 lead bullets with smokeless powder.

Jimro

[hang fire]

That .441" groove diameter sounds way out of bounds to me.

Groove diameter on my 1886 mfg. Colt 1873 SA is .426". I shoot 200 grain cast boolits in it sized to .427".

[DMH]

I agree the .441" sounds wrong, but I have slugged it three times and made sure I was measuring correctly. I also slugged my 1866 Uberti copy in 44-40 and that one was .429 groove diameter, which is what I expected it to be. So Unless I'm really screwing this up I have rifling that is .010 deep in the grooves. And when looking down the rifle barrel the six grooves are sharp and proud. Also the recovered bullets (.429 jacketed) look as if gas is blowing by. I'm open to any suggestions as to measurements or advise. The bore diameter seemed correct to me it is just the odd groove diameter and having problems getting the bullet to seal in the rifling.

David

[bubba15301]

a jacket bullet wont bump up to fill the grooves . if you use an oversizedbullet you run into other problems. such as crushing the cases. if they dont crush thecase they probably wont fit in the chamber. i would not shoot jacketed bullets in a rifle that old . maybe you could find a hollow based bullet if 1 exsists.

[DMH]

Bubba, I do not want to use a jacketed bullet, I have been tiring different combinations to find one that works for the rifle. Recovering the bullet and inspecting the results. The .430 over ff g seemed to bump up, but was hoping to find a smokeless load. Unless the best advise is to just stick with back powder. I have shot this rifle very little due to not finding the right combination. Should I try a gas checked bullet? or is .432 too large of a diameter. I have found some older threads on paper patching and I am reading those since the first response came in from Jimro

Maybe its good enough with the 200gr. .430" dia lead cast over w231 and I should just let it be.
Thank, David

[bubba15301]

are you using hardcast bullets ? try a softer alloy bullet might bump up that way .if you want a plinking load try this - 9 grainsof unique or universal clays and a .433 roundball.

[DMH]

Bubba, I first tried Remington 200 gr. soft point semi-jacketed, which did not seal or bump up. Then Hornady 205 gr. .427 dia. where the base is con-caved a small amount. This was better, but did not stop the gas blowing by the bullet. Then I tried Red River 200 gr at .430 which so far has been ok over ff g. I have received but have not assembled some .44 cal. mav dutchman from Big Lube bullets from a sampler pack. I have a few other options to try, including to attempt paper patch as Jimro suggested. I'm thinking the .430 will be best if I get it over the right powder and a charge that bumps it up enough. I still would like to know if a gas check would be better or worse. May need to just try and see.

David

[CraigC]

Skip the jacketed bullets, especially for the old Marlin. You might want to try a softer swaged bullet like those from Hornady.

[Float Pilot]

Wow that is one heck of an over-sized bore! Although that is not uncommon with some of the Marlins and Winchesters from the 1890s era.

I have a similar problem with one rifle and while jacketed bullets actually gave me good groups, they were so undersized that most of the gas blew past the bullet and I lost 300 fps and had a quickly fouled bore.

If you find some very over-sized bullets you will have problems getting them to load into the case correctly and then trying to make them chamber.

So make sure you use Winchester or at least Star Line brass with the larger bullets. Winchester is much thinner than Remington brass. The thinner and softer brass won't interfere in chambering. PLUS, it will blow out and seal the gases much better. A better seal means more pressure to deform the bottom of the bullet and help seal the gases behind it.

Try some DARAS CAST Bullets.

http://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=dardas&Product_Code=44200RNFPBB100&Category_Code=44RNFP

He make different diameters. You need a 200 grain bullet with the crimping groove in the correct location for your tubular magazine. You can order some .432 diameter bullets from him. That is about as big as you will be able to chamber. Even with thin brass. Tell him Alex in Alaska recommended him.

As for powder, my over-sized bores do not seem to do so great with Black Powder or even black powder substitute. They foul very fast with the dirty stuff. So I load smokeless to low pressures in my guns made during the 1890s.

For a 44WCF (44-40) and a 200 grain bullet using standard primers and Winchester brass.
8.0 grains of Unique.
8.0 grains of IMR 800x (very clean)
6.8 grains of WW-231 or HP-38
17.0 grains of Accurate 5744 (use a mag primer) this is a bulky powder that makes it hard to double load a case, It is very low pressure as it was made to use in black-powder pressure cartridges. A little dirty.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Welcome to the wonderful world of 44-40.

During the 19th Century, the standard groove diameter for 44-40 was .427, as opposed to .429 for 44 Russian, and later 44 Special and 44 Magnum.

However, many old 44-40 barrels of widely varying groove diameters have been reported. As low as .425 has been reported, and as large as .435 have been reported.

I have 5 rifles chambered for 44-40 and I have slugged them all.

A Marlin Model 1894 made in 1895 which slugs at .427.
A Winchester Model 1892 made in 1894 which slugs at .427.
An Uberti replica Winchester 1873 which slugs at .427.
An Uberti replica Henry which slugs at .429.
A Winchester Model 1892 made in 1919 which slugs at .429.

The order of acquisition was that I had all the .427 guns first. They all shot just fine with .427, .428, or .429 bullets. The general rule of thumb for cast bullets is to choose a bullet .001 over groove diameter. But because chamber dimensions were a bit tight in the Uberti 1873, I wound up using .427 bullets for all three rifles, and they shot just fine with .427, with both Smokeless and Black Powder.

When I got the .429 Henry I had to rethink bullet diameter a little bit. I did not want to be making up separate ammo for different rifles. I compromised at .428 and everything was fine. Later, I picked up the .429 Winchester and still shoot .428 in it and everything is still fine.

Part of the reason is that I shoot nothing but Black Powder in 44-40 these days and I cast my own dead soft bullets from pure lead. What I suspect is happening is the bullets are bumping up .001 or so in the bore and filling up the .429 rifling. Accuracy is just fine.

But .440? Are you extra sure? Don't try measuring bullets that you have recovered after shooting them, they will probably be deformed and the measurement not reliable.

What is happening at the target? Are the bullets making nice round holes, or are they key holing? (Going through sideways). If you are getting key holing, then the rifling is simply not getting a good grip on your bullets and they are tumbling as they travel. But if you are getting nice round holes, at least the rifling is grabbing the bullets and they are getting a good spin, so things may not be as bad as you think.

If you are getting fairly good accuracy out of a way out of spec bore, you might consider the battle half won.

By all means, try a larger bullet, but I doubt you are going to find something up around .441, which your groove diameter seems to indicate you need. At least try some .429 or .430 bullets.

Definitely try softer bullets, they may bump up a bit as mine do.

And Float Pilot is absolutely correct. You will find that at some point a big bullet will expand the case mouth so much that you will not be able to chamber the rounds. .430 in my 1873 does that. Absolutely use Winchester or Starline 44-40 brass, they have the thinnest necks, so they are more tolerant of 'big' bullets in tight 44-40 chambers.

.010 is really deep for rifling, even with such an old rifle. What I suspect may be happening is your rifling is getting a good grip on your .427 bullets, and giving them a good spin, but gas is getting by. If this is the case, who cares if there is some soot on the bullets? You are getting good accuracy, right? The downside is the gas squirting past the bullets can be softening the lead and may cause leading in the bore.

One terrific thing about shooting Black Powder is there is never any leading. None. I think it is because BP burns hotter, but for what ever reason, I shoot lots and lots of BP every year in lots of guns and I never get any leading.

So try to minimize the gas leakage by using a bigger bullet, say .429 or .430, but you will probably find that at some point your case mouths get so big that the rounds won't chamber.

You may want to forget about jacketed bullets in that old rifle.

P.S. I really don't think you should go for a bullet that will fill up that .440 rifling. In the old days, .427 was pretty standard for 44-40 ammo. So somebody probably put a lot of .427 ammo through it. But trying to force a .440 or so bullet into that deep rifling may raise pressures more than you want with an old rifle.

Try .430 as soft as you can find. Hollow based bullets is also a great idea.

For BP my standard 44-40 load is 2.2CC of FFg (which will vary from 33 grains to 37 grains depending on the brand of powder) under a 200 grain Big Lube dead soft Mav-Dutchman bullet sized to .428 and lubed with SPG.

My standard Smokeless load for 44-40 is 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet.

[Float Pilot]

Driftwood have you tried any of the Slim Pony bullets that the folks in N. H. are casting?

DMH:::, Take a lead bullet you have laying around and put in in a vise so you can squeeze it length wise. (vice pads on the nose and base) just squeeze it enough that it fattens up to around .435 or so.

Then grease that bullet up (maybe the bore too) and drive it through your bore with a rod. Then measure the grooves and high spots on the bullet. Driftwood is correct that .441 sound way too deep.
Go from the chamber end to the muzzle, if it suddenly gets very easy near the muzzle, you might have a barrel bulge.

[DMH]

Here are some photos.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1PEZMdNJmI0/T3zxS34C90I/AAAAAAAAADk/aPgnEOJ-r_Y/s576/IMG_0870.JPG?gl=US

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LBBDi6xfSw0/T3zxTmUnG1I/AAAAAAAAADs/TfBe2XLg3S4/s576/IMG_0871.JPG?gl=US

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dJMf00Mxn4o/T3zxU4r0lUI/AAAAAAAAAD4/4sbaR5YO3DY/s576/IMG_0872.JPG?gl=US

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9RUprmSjJXI/T3zxVTuPYyI/AAAAAAAAAD8/3-W21Dv-a6c/s576/IMG_0873.JPG?gl=US

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VwBghRlQbl8/T3zxWebm7PI/AAAAAAAAAEE/yyR4wZYeNpo/s576/IMG_0874.JPG?gl=US

Float Pilot and Driftwood Johnson, Thank you for the long and detailed information it is greatly appreciated. I did slug the barrel with a .451 lead ball I use in my cap and ball pistols, used a wooden dowl rod and pushed it from the chamber end out the bore. The first inch was tight but the constant pressure to tap it all the way through the barrel. It never pushed easy or fell through the bore. I also taped one in from the muzzle end about five inches and then pushed it back out the way it came in (from the breach). I also put a round ball into the chamber and then pushed it in further by cambering a round. Then pushed it out with the wooden dowl rod from the muzzle end. this way I had a ball to measure that was pushed all the way through the barrel and one each from each end of the rifle. I used a dial micrometer and measured the high and low spots on the lead ball. .421 bore diameter and .441 groove diameter. I did this several times to make sure I was not making a mistake. I will do it again tonight. I also slugged the barrel on my 1866 Umberti and that came out .421 bore and .429 groove. I think that I am doing it correctly. But after reading the information provided here I think that i may be making a mountain out of a mole hill. I will load up some .430 Red River soft lead over 6.6 of 231 and see how things go.

Thanks for information and the answers.
David

[bubba15301]

DMH try 9.0 grains of unique or 9.0 grains of universal clays with a 200 or 205 grain bullet this what i shoot in a 44/.40

[Float Pilot]

Again ...WOW that is a very over-sized bore.

Is it very pitted? I have one that looked nice until I scrubbed all the lead out of the pits. Now it look like and Alaskan road during break-up season.

For some reason I am not seeing any photos... My computer is going nuts. I have firefox as my browser gizmo.... Maybe I need to change the oil in my computer box.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood have you tried any of the Slim Pony bullets that the folks in N. H. are casting?

Funny you should ask. Slim Pony bullets are made by two Cowboy shooters whose aliases (alii?) are Sixgun Swanzey Slim and Iron Pony. I don't see Sixgun very often, but Iron Pony is a very good friend, we have been shooting together for many years. Although I usually cast my own bullets, sometimes I get a little bit lazy and call up Iron Pony and ask him to cast me up 500 or so. He sends them to me unsized and unlubed and I lube/size them myself to save a few dollars. We both use the Big Lube molds sold by Dick Dastardly at Big Lube.com.

http://www.biglube.com/

As a matter of fact, just last week I finished lube sizing 500 of Slim Pony's 44 caliber bullets. Here is a plug for Slim Pony's website, incase anybody wants to try them.

http://www.shootingbums.org/slim-pony/index.htm

If you look at their products you will see the 44 caliber bullet I am talking about.


DMH:

Are you sure you didn't sneak over to my house and steal my old Marlin? Yours looks just like mine. Although mine was also made in 1895 and the rifling grooves are .427. I have no idea why yours is so different.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Marlin/1894_1894CS_02.jpg




It sounds like you have a good handle on slugging a barrel, a .451 ball should work fine for slugging a 44-40 barrel. Just be sure that when you look at the high spots on the ball, you see drag marks running in the direction the slug was pushed through the bore. This photo shows some bullets I commonly slug 45 caliber bores with. The arrow on the center slug is pointing to the drag marks I'm talking about. Drag marks show the slug completely filled the groove. Without drag marks, the lead may not have completely filled the groove and any measurement taken may not be a true indication of the depth of the grooves.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/bullets/slugswitharrow.jpg

It sounds like you have been more thorough than I usually am when I slug a barrel. I usually just run the slug from the muzzle to the breech. With some guns, Winchesters and most revolvers, it is impossible to slug the barrel from the chamber to the muzzle. With your Marlin by dismantling it you have a straight shot at the chamber. You can't do that with a Winchester or a revolver.

Anyhoo, when I slugged my old Marlin the slug ran all the way from the muzzle most of the way to the chamber with the same amount of resistance. As you obviously realize, that is a good indicator that the bore is the same diameter all the way. Then a few inches from the chamber it got very easy to push, with almost no resistance. That is fairly common with old rifles that have seen a lot of Black Powder shot through them without always having the best cleanup possible. It means the bore is eroded a bit near the chamber. Usually not a huge consideration, I have run into it a few times and the guns in question have shot fine.

Regarding pitted old bores, I read a long time ago that it was best to shoot Black Powder through a new, unpitted bore. The thousands of tiny pits tend to hold the fouling in and require much more elbow grease to get all the fouling out. While this is basically true, I no longer worry about cleaning out old pitted bores as much as I used to. It turns out, even if you don't get every last spec of fouling out of the bore, and there is still a little bit lurking down in the pits, as long as you give the bore a good coating of oil, I always use Ballistol, whatever fouling remains in the pits is rendered harmless and does not cause any further corrosion. It turns out that if you saturate Black Powder fouling with oil, it can no longer absorb any moisture from the air. It is like a sponge that is already saturated with water, it cannot absorb any more. Since the fouling cannot absorb any more water, it does not cause any more corrosion down in the pits. I have one old S&W top break 44 with a bore that looks like a minefield it is so pitted. But the rifling is still strong, and it shoots great.

The dimensions on your Uberti 1866 jibe with most of what I have been hearing about recent Uberti 44-40 rifles. Most of them slug at .429. My Henry, which I bought about 5 years ago, slugs at .429, although my 1873, which was made in the 1980s slugs at .427. To tell you the truth, when I slug a barrel, I never pay any attention at all to the bore diameter. I only care about the rifling groove diameter.

Try those soft .430 bullets and I bet everything will be fine.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Ooops, darn double tap

sorry.

[DMH]

Driftwood Johnson,

I have a sample pack from Dick Dastardly, (some 32-20 and 44-40 samples) And is where I would buy my mold from once I determine the size I want. I have an auto repair Shop in the twin Cities and work on His daughters vehicles. Dicks Son in law is who got me started with the lever action Winchesters and saa Colts. They are very friendly and helpful folks. After seeing your photos of the lead bullets you slugged It gave me the idea to photo the ones I did. I never thought of taking photos of the bullets. Again your information is very helpful and appreciated.

Thanks to all,
David

[Float Pilot]

I just received a couple boxes of bullets from Iron Pony via the mail. The postal yahoos must not like lead, because they opened the boxes and then tossed them back into some sort of bag with a hole in it. So when my wife picked it up at the Post Office the occasional chunk of greased lead fell out on the floor. Plus they seem to have heated the box in some manner, because all the lube ran off into the box.

Here is what an under-sized bullet looks like when driven through an over-sized bore. The top of the lands made some indentations on the bullet, but the lead never made it into the bottom of the barrels grooves.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162212&d=1333643752

[Jim Watson]

Mike Venturino shot the odd Burgess pump .44-40 in Rifle magazine no 254.
He said it did ok in spite of one barrel of the set at .440" and the other .443"; ordinary .427" cast bullets and all.

[Float Pilot]

The article by the Iron Duke aka Mike Venturino is found here.....

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri254partial.pdf

He does mention a fast rifling twist in the 44-40 Burgess along with very deep rifling. Maybe that is why it works...

[Edarnold]

"when looking down the rifle barrel the six grooves are sharp and proud. "
Yes, they would be, after someone in the last 117 years recut the rifling. It was common practice in the 1800's and well into the 20th century to salvage a barrel that had become eroded or badly pitted by recutting the existing rifling.

The home gunsmith could cast a lead lap on the end of a sturdy cleaning rod, cut a notch in one of the groove impressions to hold a scraper made from an old file, then slowly scrape each groove in turn, shim the scraper a bit, and repeat, until all the grooves were clean and sharp. A little fine grinding compound on the lap at the end, and it would look as good as a factory barrel, only a little bigger.

Modern shooters of muzzle-loading target rifles have to 'fresh up' the rifling on their guns periodically when the soft steel wears enough that the cloth patch is no longer gripping properly. Today, they will send it off to a barrel maker to have this done, and this may also have been the case on your rifle, though I doubt a professional gunsmith would have done such an extreme job!

I agree that this should be a lead-bullet-only rifle, using a fairly fast-burning smokeless powder to duplicate black-powder ballistics I would think soft alloy bullets should upset to fit and shoot just fine.

[DMH]

Edarnold, Thanks for the information on the rifling being touched up and explaining the technique. I have not read or heard of this, but that makes sense and could see how this could be done.

I tried to photograph the slugged and recovered bullets last night, but even using a macro adjustment on the lens was unable to produce in focus and decent photos. I will try again and post photos of the bullets and some targets.

David

[DMH]

Attempt at bullet photos


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jcw94EkCAvY/T38jYsTFC-I/AAAAAAAAAEo/-jVbtL2N4kA/s288/IMG_0886.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ulQeTK7uBls/T38jYOKzjSI/AAAAAAAAAEg/66Vxxc9mOcs/s288/IMG_0884.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Aag5rYWl13Y/T38jXa-0peI/AAAAAAAAAEY/pA6uT_leGQY/s288/IMG_0883.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oqwYdMxqCiI/T38jWdYPMcI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/-WSLYLVUEnY/s288/IMG_0882.JPG

Any tips on improving my photo quality?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Any tips on improving my photo quality?

Take multiple shots of each set up. It ain't like back with film, you can erase anything you don't like.

Use plenty of light, you are not using enough.

Try to use a contrasting background.

For close shots, see if your camera has a closeup setting.

I generally turn the flash off when taking close up gun photos, I instead rely on the room light. This means steadying the camera so it does not shake because the exposure time will be longer.

Get your self a good photo editing software. This one is free, I use it all the time.

http://www.faststone.org/index.htm

Once you download your photos into the computer edit them with the editing software. Blow each one up to see which ones are in the best focus. Discard any that are out of focus. Then use the photo editing software to zoom in and crop your photos so you just show what you want to show.

[DMH]

Was not sure if I should have started a new thread or continued on with this one. Let me know if there is a correct way of posting, I'm kind of new at this.

I fired 15 rounds through the 1894 Marlin this evening 10 rounds of .427 dia. lead Hornady 205 grain over 6.8 grains of Winchester 231 and five rounds of .430 dia. Red River solf lead bullets over 6.8 grains Winchester 231. I was unable to recover any of the fired bullets. All shots were at 50 yards. I know I need to drift the front sights, but for now I am just looking at groups, keyholes and sealing the bullet into the over sized grooves. The accuracy was far better with the .430 dia bullets. I do not see any keyholes, but let me know what you guys think.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XFv9n9R5vi4/T6dURYqJZBI/AAAAAAAAAI0/Qs1fmSjZKBU/s800/IMG_0917.JPG?gl=US
.427 dia @ 50 yrds
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EprvAyIqvA0/T6dUScyeNaI/AAAAAAAAAJY/nrMU8cPpfkE/s800/IMG_0918.JPG?gl=US
.427 dia @ 50 yrds
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v44R4sa8OMI/T6dUS0oJqrI/AAAAAAAAAJE/XOX6GF8x4GI/s800/IMG_0919.JPG?gl=US
.430 dia @ 50 yrds
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VBmeYspHals/T6dUUi4L0OI/AAAAAAAAAJM/sLuDJK3KFoo/s512/IMG_0920.JPG?gl=US
Close up "key holes?"

What should I expect at 50 yards for the cartridge.

Thanks for the help David

[CraigC]

Any tips on improving my photo quality?
The biggest thing people can do to improve their photos is to turn off the flash. Use plenty of natural lighting but never in direct sunlight. Outdoors, in a shaded area or better yet, on an overcast day, makes for the best pictures. You don't need a big fancy camera to take nice pics. Some of my best were taken with an old 1.2MP Olympus.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I agree with everything CraigC said about photos. The most important thing is to turn off the flash and use plenty of available light. And take multiple exposures so you can pick and choose the best.

As far as your accuracy is concerned, I think you have solved your problems. Those .430 bullets are making a pretty good group. I could not do any batter with open sights and my poor eyesight.

Your bullets are not key holing. Key holing happens when bullets are tumbling and go through the target sideways.

Like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/targets/keyholes.jpg

[DMH]

Driftwood, That target you posted with the two holes in it were those actual holes from shooting at the target or did you make that to use as an example for me to understand keyholes? I was going to try some bullets at .432 and see if they will chamber. If they camber I'll see how they shoot. I also need to drift my front sight slightly to the right, which brings up another question for you. when I look at the front sight blade it looks as if the blade has been bump at some point and has a slight bend to the left. So instead of drifting the dovetail to the right should I try to straighten the front sight blade. I have not attempted anything on the front sight yet because I had visions of me doing something stupid and snap off the front sight blade. I can post photo of front sight if needed. Thanks for your input as to accuracy.

DMH

[Driftwood Johnson]

Actual target. I used to have a Lee/Enfield that keyholed with everything I put through it. That target was placed at about 25 yards. I had several targets like it from that gun, from different distances. The interesting thing was, even though the bullets were tumbling like crazy, they still hit the target I was aiming at. Eventually I sold the gun when I found another one that shot better. I really doubt your bullets are tumbling, the holes would be bullet shaped like mine. Or at least they would be irregular looking. And you would not have such a good group.

Regarding the bent front sight, depending on how badly it's bent, probably better to just replace it. It's a lot easier to break a front sight than it is to straighten it. Of course if you drive it out of the dovetail, you may have good luck laying it flat on a hard surface and pounding it flat.

If you can see it is bent when sighting the gun, and it is bent enough to bother you, then think about bending it back or replacing it.

If you have a 3/8" dovetail, you can replace it with a modern sight. Most dovetails are standardized at 3/8" measuring the flat at the bottom of the dovetail. Here is a photo of the front sight on my old Marlin. It is probably not original, I think it is a Lyman sight that somebody put in at some point. I always liked it because of the tiny ivory bead set into the blade.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Marlin/IMG_0233_enhanced.jpg




Marbles makes some very nice sights.

http://www.marblearms.com/frontSights.html

Here is a photo of one of their 'gold bead' (actually brass) contour front sights mounted on my Uberti replica of the Winchester 1873. It really is not as scratched up on top as it looks. To order one of Marbles sights, you actually order them from Brownells.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/sights/Marbles332goldbeadx450high.jpg



Brownells also has a couple of other front sights you might be interested in.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=24667/Product/MARLIN-FRONT-SIGHT

A few years ago I had a smith mount that inexpensive, square looking front sight on a Winchester 1892 rifle of mine. That sight is meant to be filed to whatever shape you want. Here it is on my Winchester:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/sights/frontsight1892.jpg

So there are a few options you may want to consider instead of straightening the sight on your Marlin. Or you might just try driving it out and placing it on a flat, hard surface and try straightening it out with a few well place hammer blows. I would not try to bend it while still mounted in the gun. That's a good way to break it.

[DMH]

DriftwoodJohnson, Thank you again, you have been more than helpful. I have learned about keyhole targets, learned about the lead bullet base bumping up and learned how to post photos. This has been an enjoyable project for me. I will post pictures of my front sight and will post more targets as I sight in the rifle. I like my front sight so I will try not to damage it.

David

[DMH]

I took the front sight off of the 1894 Marlin and straightened the blade. I think this front sight is called German silver blade. Here are some photos to the sight after repairs, and some outside photos with better lighting. Some extra rifles in the photos just for fun.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-311o078l-Xg/T7B0vxSo3fI/AAAAAAAAALE/oiFzjt9ck2s/s800/IMG_0923.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ChykLVhitcw/T7B0wtThwHI/AAAAAAAAALU/g6d2ypGs140/s800/IMG_0925.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AHCJ1SyjWmo/T7B0xaCTJWI/AAAAAAAAALs/329ndK5VGHw/s800/IMG_0928.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gRExuLn_GFI/T7B0w8EG1XI/AAAAAAAAALc/Fj26kPaERKM/s800/IMG_0926.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y9MRMOy7Onc/T7B0Thrk8MI/AAAAAAAAAKY/5vhY8ZQjNSo/s800/IMG_0935.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0kxGLF5a4lk/T7B0Su1w3bI/AAAAAAAAAKI/TeNVWoaFXQw/s512/IMG_0933.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-14YwBNhU01w/T7B0R7nSlpI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/x7BqmvRvcNw/s512/IMG_0931.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OKkOjOjki0o/T7B0VR7ehfI/AAAAAAAAAKo/rVKHMl0kgO0/s800/IMG_0937.JPG

DMH

[DMH]

Just to update this thread, I have been using A2400 powder started low and worked up to 16 grains and now I'm at 18.3 and 18.5 grains. With the .427" diameter lead RNFP bullets accuracy was fair but not great and the lower power loads were worse. I feel the .427" bullets were not sealing even when the charge was great enough to bump up the base of the bullet. The .430" bullets were better and at 18.3 to 18.5 the bullets were sealing well. The rifle sound was a sharp crack when fired vs. the odd cork gun sound with the lighter loads. The best results has been with the .432" Mav Dutchman bullets loaded as dropped and pan lubed (not seized). These were loaded over 18.5 grains of A2400 and would produce a 5 shot vertical string at 50 yards with all holes on the target touching each other. The rifle sure likes this load and I will be loading 25 more of the .432" and try them. Seating and crimping these .432 needs to be perfect or the crimp will not allow the bullet to chamber in the rifle. I've been seating and crimping in the same die at station #3 on my Dillion progressive, but plan on backing off the crimp in station #3 and use a Lee FCD in station #4. This I hope will improve my crimps with the over-sized bullets (.432") The .430" are easier to load and crimping in the seating die was working well with that bullet. The .430" bullets over 18.3 grains of A2400 were producing 3-4" groups at 50 yards.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JzLzKmPO3Ro/T_-AEOILSRI/AAAAAAAAAPw/78ZdqrPbxIg/s800/IMG_1028.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EisLl6krrJg/UAs7oRPrdLI/AAAAAAAAAU0/-_XqekRgTDQ/s800/IMG_1040.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YEDQVZpYf0Y/UAs7ogmnEgI/AAAAAAAAAU8/9k76ZE_Il6U/s800/IMG_1041.JPG
DMH

[Jim Watson]

Good information.

You might end up opening up the chamber neck just a smidgen so the .432s chamber freely. What brass are you using? I think Winchester is thinnest.

One criticism, though.
I would definitely want safety glasses while doing such experimental shooting in an old rifle. Actually I want safety glasses for all sorts of shooting. Admittedly, I have to have corrective glasses for any waking activity so it is kind of automatic for me.

[DMH]

Using Winchester, Starline and Remington brass. The range trip this weekend went well, but I still am not getting the base of the lead bullet to bump up and seal completely. The target groups have been alright, and I have moved the rear sight to get more on target. Still working on getting the right load. The first two photos are of targets set at 50 yards.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--BLN2kd9Xts/UAzOIn2TnKI/AAAAAAAAAWo/6-CMFptguT8/s800/IMG_1069.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-I6ObGhhxRCc/UAzOJLZeXFI/AAAAAAAAAW4/x8BIl7BWCqk/s512/IMG_1071.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5SIOoMHVzjw/UAzOKM-MxXI/AAAAAAAAAXU/d3S9hTTVwao/s512/IMG_1075.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8u1H0E5GMSA/UAzOKyzhG-I/AAAAAAAAAXk/fv6Z47RnSSw/s800/IMG_1077.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pvutdpmqGT4/UAzOLqy1RjI/AAAAAAAAAX4/yyp7ccDDF9U/s800/IMG_1079.JPG
The squares are 1"
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LrypxI5az0M/UAzOLuws1RI/AAAAAAAAAX8/5N_OGm9luYs/s800/IMG_1080.JPG
We set up this gong at 100 yards and could make hits with every shot, it is about a 12" or 14" metal disc.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-o6y9NUbAVuY/UAzOH3VqnMI/AAAAAAAAAWY/V5xq_t9XgLk/s800/IMG_1067.JPG

DMH

[lemaymiami]

For anyone wanting to improve the quality of their close-up photography, there's one or two small things you can do that will make a dramatic difference.... The first is to mount your camera (any camera from inexpensive to high quality) on a tripod, then use your time delay or cable release (the trick is that if the camera is not moving at all -- your pics will be much, much sharper..). The second easy to do item involves a trip to the craft store where you'll buy 3mm foam sheets that kids use for craft projects.... They come in a variety of colors and will provide a great contrast to any closeup shots.

I do a bit of writing for magazines and that's how I get my pics up to snuff for closeup work..... and of course a bunch of pics on digitals first, then close examination on the computer screen to chose the best...

[DMH]

I want to apologize for the poor judgement on my part for letting my daughter shot with out safety glasses. I was sent a nice PM and this was pointed out to me. Thanks! The glasses do no good on the bench or in the bag.

DMH