Handguns vs. Tasers


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Confederate
April 3, 2012, 09:53 PM
My sister wants to buy a TASER, but I'm recommending against it. It seems to me that a handgun or small knife would be a superior weapon for self defense -- especially the types that shoot out two electrical clips. What are your opinions?

Does anyone know of any articles or editorials written on this topic?

I'd think that a small neck knife or Ruger LCR would be a far better choice.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/A_Knife_2.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/CSSkeanDhu_0.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/M60_3.jpg

Neck knives and other small, sharp things, to me, seem like a better
way to go than TASERS. Oh, and let's not forget small pistols like the
S&W Model 60 .38 or .357.

.

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SFsc616171
April 3, 2012, 11:37 PM
Tell your sister, that the idiot she tasers will have a very bad grudge, considering it was a woman who brought him down, and made him loose as a goose. She is defending her life! She is not out to 'give a guy a good jolt to remember!' He will come looking for her, with revenge to exact. Not a good thing! A taser, to me, means that she still picks up firearms, like a dead shrimp. She has to remember: the thug has already decided that you are just meat with clothes on; what you own is his already,to claim from your body; who you are is nothing; if he has to kill you, so what! She has to get that in her mind.

stiletto raggio
April 3, 2012, 11:56 PM
I am an MP and have been tased in training several times. Bottom line, tasers work. Pepper spray does, too, but both have significant shortcomings. I view both as excellent tools for law enforcements, but with limited use for civilians. On tasers:

1) Tasers will only work on one person at a time. If confronted by multiple assailants, she would be SOL.

2) Tasers require a good connection with both probes to be effective. Heavy clothing or odd angles can mess this up, and, again, you only have one shot.

3) Tasers are somewhat expensive to purchase and very expensive to practice with.

4) Tasers are actually significantly more bulky than many firearms.

5) Tasers have a very limited range (15') which means that a person can be outside your range but still well within range of their weapon or within effective rushing distance for hand-to-hand.

Police can offset these disadvantages by having a partner with a firearm at the ready when attempting to tase a violent suspect, but the citizen trying to defend themselves on the street doesn't usually have the luxury of a backup.

CWL
April 4, 2012, 12:48 AM
Your sister has to choose the defensive tool that she's willing to carry and use. If a taser is it, then stop giving her a hard time. At least she's willing to carry something.

Guns and knives may be great for you, but I doubt she'll want to try and carve on someone with a knife or shoot someone.

If you force her to get something that she refuses to carry, she's no better off.

bluethunder1962
April 4, 2012, 01:02 AM
if she is against killing somebody get a bond arms 45/410. You can get rubber buckshot for them and it will get you away for them fast.

MedWheeler
April 4, 2012, 07:47 AM
if she is against killing somebody get a bond arms 45/410. You can get rubber buckshot for them and it will get you away for them fast.

Check local laws and regulations before going this route. This can get one in a heap of trouble should they actually use it in many jurisdictions. If one fires a such-loaded weapon, it still constitutes discharging a deadly weapon, since it is still indeed a firearm. Discharging a deadly weapon at another person when one is not necessarily in fear of "imminent death or serious bodily injury" is a crime. It may be argued that, if the shooter was indeed in such fear, then they should be countering with a weapon so loaded as to be able to stop the threat, and the lack of such a load might mean that such fear didn't exist.
I know, OC and Tasers can be used against deadly-force threats without being lethal themselves, but their use (in most jurisdictions) isn't restricted to only "deadly-force" threats. The use of a firearm, regardless of how its loaded (even with blanks!) is.
Just make sure that, if she (or anyone else) goes this route, that they still deploy the weapon only in the same scenarios in which it would be deployed were it loaded with normal, lethal ammunition.
I'd really stay away from firearms if all I wanted was a "less-lethal" (formerly known as "non-lethal") self-defense option. I would also prefer OC to a Taser. In fact, I really should start carrying it again along with my sidearm.
Because stilletto-raggio didn't mention the shortcomings of OC spray, I'll point them out. OC has a limited effective range of five-to-fifteen feet, depending on the size of the container and its stream mass. It's actually not as much a "spray" as it is a "stream", so it does need to be precisely aimed and focused into the eyes. An assailant wearing glasses (sunglasses on attackers is quite common) will have some protection from OC. Wind direction is important as well; one does not want to OC-spray herself if a brisk wind is in her face, but it's still powerful enough that, at self-defense distance, the assailant would likely take some as well.
Advantages of OC over a Taser include the fact that it can be deployed multiple times, is much less expensive to acquire and train with, and that its effects last longer than those of a Taser (up to 20 minutes or more in direct-hit cases.)
OP, don't push your sister into a firearm if she's not ready, and don't try to scare her as well. Commend her for stepping up and accepting responsibility for her own safety, and let her develop that sense and responsibility from there.

kludge
April 4, 2012, 10:23 AM
By taser, you mean the thing that shoots out the barbs?

It's a compliance tool, not a self-defense tool.

If she doesn't want a gun, then pepper spray. Fox Labs or Sabre Red.

Drail
April 4, 2012, 10:39 AM
A Taser won't help you much if there is more than one attacker. Plus after working most of my life in electronics I have very little faith that one will function when I need it. Tasers are basically mass produced junk. Using a knife for self defense is only going to work if you are very skilled with one. If you are not then you will just be giving them a weapon.

Loosedhorse
April 4, 2012, 01:34 PM
I'd think that a small neck knifeWORST POSSIBLE CHOICE, unless she is well skilled in knife fighting.

The FBI has statistics on the effectiveness of resisting an attacker. If you resist with anything except a gun, you increase your chance of injury.

Add to that the fact that a special brand of attacker targets women. Some of those would be simultaneously thrilled and angered to face a victim with a knife: she will have to kill him, not injure him, not scare him off. If she can do that with a knife, fine.

A knife in the hands of an unskilled female user is kind of like a simple latch on a door: it'll work on anyone who didn't really want to commit a crime in the first place.

I would say whatever weapon she's comfortable with, that's better than no weapon (even if the FBI says otherwise). If she's comfortable with a Taser, that's fine. But, just like a gun or knife, it's not a lucky charm: she should get training, and practice.

Shadow 7D
April 4, 2012, 01:41 PM
Also, first rule in knife fighting

YOU WILL GET CUT (wounded)
see, it's not a question of WHO gets hurt, but who gets hurt WORSE

gun pepper spray, taser is OK, but if she insists, get her some spray to back it up.

David E
April 4, 2012, 03:56 PM
Your sister has to choose the defensive tool that she's willing to carry and use. If a taser is it, then stop giving her a hard time. At least she's willing to carry something.

Guns and knives may be great for you, but I doubt she'll want to try and carve on someone with a knife or shoot someone.

If you force her to get something that she refuses to carry, she's no better off.

I agree with all but the last line; she well may be WORSE off if she carries a knife or gun she's unwilling to use.

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 4, 2012, 06:35 PM
She'd better have a plan to be far far away after that 5 second ride stops. Once the current on a Taser stops, the effect is over. The target can immediately get up and continue the attack as if it he had never been Tased. Unless she plans on continuously pulling the trigger and reshocking the bad guy over and over, as soon as she's done Tasing him, she's still gonna be 30 or so feet away with a pissed of bad guy ready to attack. Now what?

allaroundhunter
April 4, 2012, 07:02 PM
While I would rather have a handgun or OC spray over a Taser, advising your sister to carry a knife instead is just a bad idea. Knives take a lot of training to be proficient with, and a lot of it requires being physical with an adversary. Women are attacked because they cannot physically match up to their attackers, so a knife is a poor choice.

I personally keep a knife on me on a daily basis, I have been trained in its uses, and continue to train (when I have the time). But I would much rather run from an attacker than have to use the knife because as Shadow 7D said:
Also, first rule in knife fighting

YOU WILL GET CUT (wounded)
see, it's not a question of WHO gets hurt, but who gets hurt WORSE

So basically, a knife is most definitely not a "far better choice"

Stealth01
April 4, 2012, 07:44 PM
NEVER bring a knife to a gun fight...!!!!

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m512/kengallagher/guns1.jpg

scaatylobo
April 4, 2012, 09:32 PM
Regardless of whatever you decide.

She NEEDS training and I dont mean 4 hour course.

If you plan on defending your life with ANY tool == train as if your life depended on it.

Otherwise your just carrying a tool to be taken and used against you.

Most that do carry a gun do NOT train.

Sad but oh so true.

I was LEO and used and trained with OC,Taser,ASP,Wooden baton,Blackjack,Knife,and of course gun.

They all work,its the time,place AND circumstance that matters.

Have a plan,then a backup plan as your first plan went to hell in a handbasket.

That is where the training come in.

Jaymo
April 4, 2012, 09:37 PM
My buddy bought a brand new Taser last year.
I used to zap myself with the stun guns at the gun show, just to PO the sellers.
I let my buddy shoot me with his taser. It took about a half hour for me to convince him that it wouldn't kill me and that I wouldn't get mad at him.
I am not impressed with Tasers.
Yes, it hurt.
No, it did not incapacitate me.
Cattle prods are a lot more impressive.

She would be better off with a good .38 snub.

Sam1911
April 4, 2012, 09:38 PM
Something a friend told me a while back:

There's a difference b/n the LEO Taser and the C2.

The C2 lasts a full 30 seconds. I'll say that again. A full 30 seconds.

We demo'd them back at like NTI 18 or so. Brian Williams was there.

The ride is different than the LEO Taser. Their design is made for compliance. Short jolt. Put the chap on the ground, get him cuffed or otherwise in custody, and try to do it without much injury. The jolt lasts about 5 seconds. Enough to get someone's body on the ground and make him do the funky chicken while your partner pounces on him and wraps him up.

The C2 is made to deliver a slightly different frequency jolt. And it keeps on going.

For a FULL THIRTY SECONDS!

Anyone who's ever been tazed will agree that's an absolute eternity of hell. Yeah, once it's done the effect is gone the instant the juice stops. However, you're thirty seconds farther away. And it takes a while to recover and want to do anything after a ride like that besides sit there and just get your breath back. ... I'd like to see you get up ready to fight after 30 seconds after a ride on one of those.

...

Just something I've heard.

allaroundhunter
April 5, 2012, 12:30 AM
For a FULL THIRTY SECONDS!

Anyone who's ever been tazed will agree that's an absolute eternity of hell.

I think they would rather be in hell than have to endure that for 30 seconds....

allaroundhunter
April 5, 2012, 12:32 AM
My buddy bought a brand new Taser last year.
I used to zap myself with the stun guns at the gun show, just to PO the sellers.
I let my buddy shoot me with his taser. It took about a half hour for me to convince him that it wouldn't kill me and that I wouldn't get mad at him.
I am not impressed with Tasers.
Yes, it hurt.
No, it did not incapacitate me.
Cattle prods are a lot more impressive.

What model did he have?

ArchAngelCD
April 5, 2012, 02:37 AM
IMO a knife is a bad idea especially for a woman. Using a knife correctly for SD will require more training than a handgun. If she's worried about her safety a handgun is probably the best choice but only with training. (like said above) Pepper spray isn't such a bad idea either. There are many good choices and for the most part a combination of all of them is probably best. A good basic course on hand-to-hand is a good idea too...

SimplyChad
April 5, 2012, 06:49 AM
If shes not willing to give hours to training with the knife dont bother. Guns are the same way but point and bang will work if the attacker is close. I would suggest a snubby that she can quickly draw and training with it. Also gel shot pepper sprays. They stay and burn for a long time.

Sam1911
April 5, 2012, 07:24 AM
I forgot to add the other comment regarding the C2, 30-second ride:

The idea is hit him, drop the unit, and take off. Taser will even replace the unit if you come back later and it's gone. They say as much in their literature.

Longhorn 76
April 5, 2012, 08:08 AM
The guy who said Taser is junk has obviously never seen one. And a lot of advice is given here by people who obviously don't even know what they are. It is not a cheap stun gun. Just google it, people, before you start giving out bad advice.

I carry the C2. Not as good as a pistol. But, I can carry it almost everywhere, a pistol I can't. I defy anyone here who thinks they can take the hit and then attack me. The C2 is made for civilians. It is not a compliance weapon. It is made to allow you to escape the situation. Another advantage is that it is not regarded here as a lethal weapon (although most law enforcement agencies regard it as such). If you have to use it, I would much rather defend myself in court for it, than a pistol, because the jury knows the intent is not to kill, but to stop.

The War Wagon
April 5, 2012, 08:12 AM
Have her watch a few episodes of "COPS" sometime - LOTSA taser FAIL! on there. They had a taser FAIL! in the opening segment of a brand new episode this past Sunday! :o

BBQLS1
April 5, 2012, 11:25 AM
Not too long ago we had that video of the guy walking around with the taser barbs attached to his face. He swung a conduit bender and the police had to shoot.

Not saying tasers don't work. I bet in most cases they do. Looks to me you get one shot at 15 feet to get it right.

Not saying a firearm is a better solution either. Some people just aren't ready to take someone's life even if it means saving theirs or others.


A knife is a contact weapon.... IMO not very desireable.

Still, she needs to research and think heavily about the pros and cons of each. She needs to be realistic about each too.

brickeyee
April 5, 2012, 05:53 PM
Make sure it is even legal in your state.

And the non-police Tasers are not the same as the police models.

The firing units are also painfully expensive unless you have an agency to pay for them.

Losov
April 6, 2012, 03:21 PM
Then there's the stun gun, which does not require reload and can be used on multiple attackers, but is not without its shortcomings. It is a contact weapon for one and in my state it cannot be carried concealed even with a concealed carry permit (figure that one out!) It still comes back to pepper spray or a CCP with training and the right weapon.

3KillerBs
April 6, 2012, 06:33 PM
IMO, a pistol is a better choice.

A knife is nearly useless to an untrained person. And, unless she is an amazon, she will almost certainly be smaller and weaker than any male attacker. This fact of human biology makes a close contact weapon like a knife a poor choice for a woman.

A tazer is easily defeated by heavy clothing and I think its a bad idea to have to remain connected to an attacker by wires to keep him subdued rather than being able to incapacitate him and flee as you can with a pistol.

Also, though tazers appeal to those who doubt their ability to use a potentially lethal weapon I think this is a bad choice. IMO, it is those very people who find themselves unable to pull the trigger on a gun who will be least capable of continuing to press that button on the taser while they watch the attacker writhe in agony. This seems likely to leave them in the position of facing a no-longer-incapacitated and now-infuriated attacker while armed with nothing but their empty hands.

Either a knife or a taser would be better than nothing, but if she has completely ruled out a pistol I think that pepper spray would be a better option. With pepper spray she is likely to be able to incapacitate an attacker in a way that would allow her to flee rather than remain in close contact.

Robert
April 6, 2012, 06:49 PM
If she is more comfortable with a Taser then get her the best one she/ you can afford. Something is better than nothing. You can work her up to a handgun later if she becomes interested.

Jaymo
April 6, 2012, 09:54 PM
It was a C2 and it didn't impress me. I'm not a badass, but it wouldn't stop me from committing a violent act, if I were so inclined.
It was no more unpleasant than getting zapped by an ignition secondary lead.
I've always considered it to be kind of fun letting my buddies zap me with stun guns at gun shows.
In A&P school, we used to have fun with magnetos in recip engine class.
We'd wrap a line around the mag drive shaft and one person would yank it like a recoil starter while the rest of us would each grab and hold a lead as long as we can.
I never let go. I was the only one in class who could hold on.

I've also tested cattle prods on myself. Red, blue, and green. IIR.C, the red is the strongest.
It didn't hurt like the Taser, but it was more disruptive to my muscular functions

I'd rather trust something that will change a 2,000 pound bull's channel, than something that won't even stop a wuss like me.


You can't rely on electricity to stop someone. Everyone has a different internal electrical resistance.
Just one of those things you have to consider before trusting your life to a glorified stun gun.
I have a friend who isn't bothered by pepper spray. I didn't believe it until he had me spray him.
I'd much rather get hit with a taser than with pepper spray, but neither one works on everyone.

I never said Tasers were junk. You appear to be putting words in my mouth.
I said, after riding that lightning, that I was not impressed.

Not everyone is afraid of getting shocked. Especially with nonlethal current.
Fear of getting shocked is pounded into our heads from childhood.
Not all of us are afraid of it.
I've been shocked with 110 and 220 AC single phase, as well as 480 3 phase.
110 tickles.
220 is a bit unpleasant.
480 is very unpleasant and burns a bit.

Speaking of electricity, I need to go put on my TENS unit and "shock the monkey".

Jim K
April 8, 2012, 08:26 PM
Read and heed Brickeyee's warning. Even some states that have "shall issue" policies on gun carry ban carrying of Tasers or some knives, or both.

Jim

Double Naught Spy
April 9, 2012, 02:00 AM
My sister wants to buy a TASER, but I'm recommending against it. It seems to me that a handgun or small knife would be a superior weapon for self defense -- especially the types that shoot out two electrical clips. What are your opinions?

The knife may be her worst choice. Using a knife means having to be in close physical proximity to the threat, no more than an arm's legth away. She can't cut or stab that which she cannot reach.

Guns and tasers have the advantage of being stand-off weapons. You can shoot bad guys beyond your arm's reach.

Tell your sister, that the idiot she tasers will have a very bad grudge, considering it was a woman who brought him down,

LOL, this is a rather spurious concern. Unless dead, any use of a weapon against a bad guy could result in carrying a grudge and coming to find the intended victim.

By taser, you mean the thing that shoots out the barbs?

It's a compliance tool, not a self-defense tool.

The ride is different than the LEO Taser. Their design is made for compliance. Short jolt. Put the chap on the ground, get him cuffed or otherwise in custody, and try to do it without much injury. The jolt lasts about 5 seconds. Enough to get someone's body on the ground and make him do the funky chicken while your partner pounces on him and wraps him up.

I don't follow. Taser does not make the compliance distinction between models and bills all of them for self defense. The two non-C2 civilian models (M26c, X26c) perform like their police counterparts. The x26c delivers a 10 second jolt that can be changed to 30 seconds with addtional pulls of the trigger or can deliver a charge as long as the trigger is depressed.

It should be noted as well that Taser use for compliance isn't necessarily legal. The 9th District Federal Court ruled against Tasers being used for some types of compliance. In that case, a guy pulled over by the police failed to get back in his car when told to do so and so the officer tased him despite there being no threat from the driver. In fact, such use was unlawful.
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/12/28/08-55622.pdf
The M26c delivers a 5 second jolt, but continuous discharge can be made to occur by holding down the trigger for 5 seconds and the discharge will occur until trigger is released or it runs out of power. The LE X6 also delivers a 5 second jolt that can be repeated with more pulls on the trigger.

So while the C2 may be a defense only device with its 30 discharge, shorter duration models being used by the police for compliance problems, However, just because LE Tasers can/have/will be used for compliance ssues does not mean the Tasers aren't also for self defense.

Kiln
April 9, 2012, 04:53 PM
I don't know about tasers but I know for a fact that LEO power pepper spray will disable you for at least 15 minutes and is very uncomfortable for nearly an hour. Hopefully the wind isn't blowing or else you're likely to disable yourself as well though.

My wife bought some pepper spray and I told her "there's no way that crap actually works well enough to stop somebody". I then volunteered to let her shoot me with it. She wouldn't do it but my brother there and was willing. I let him shoot me directly in the face with it and I've got to say that it was pretty much instantly disabling. My eyes swelled shut in seconds, it was extremely hard to breathe, and I couldn't stop the burning no matter what I did.

I then jumped into the shower (DON'T DO IT) and in the process of trying to wash it off I managed to spread it all over my body, causing my entire body to take on a dark red, purple color and burn like hell. I called poison control and they said to dump milk on it to help stop the pain. So I rushed to the kitchen and grabbed a gallon of milk from the fridge, then went to the tub and doused myself in it. It helped VERY LITTLE.

For the next thirty minutes I laid curled up in the floor with a cold towel around me and eventually it stopped burning.

So to summarize, pepper spray will work as a defensive tool.

Shoobee
April 9, 2012, 04:57 PM
Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

A taser is a police weapon for subduing a suspect when there are several policemen present, and the decision is made to go with nonlethal force.

I don't know of a single policeman who would use his taser as a self defense weapon.

For self defense, the semi-automatic pistol is the most appropriate choice.

Because it's guaranteed, by Smith & Wesson and Colt.

45_auto
April 10, 2012, 12:59 PM
I don't know about tasers but I know for a fact that LEO power pepper spray will disable you for at least 15 minutes and is very uncomfortable for nearly an hour.

Better check your facts because they're wrong.

The local sheriff's department I'm with requires all officers to complete a pepper spray course before carrying pepper spray. The final segment in the course consists of getting sprayed in the eyes with the LEO-only pepper spray then completing a 3 station obstacle course. Station 1 is 15 seconds of hand strikes against a padded opponent, Station 2 is 15 seconds of leg strikes against a padded opponent, and Station 3 is 15 seconds of baton strikes against a padded opponent. While you're engaged in the baton strikes at Station 3 another opponent comes up behind you and tries to take your duty weapon, forcing you to execute retention tactics.

The reason for the course is to demonstrate that pepper spray does not necessarily incapacitate anyone. It's still their option whether they want to keep fighting or not. Anyone can force their eyes open for a second or so at a time and keep attacking. Everyone's performance was recorded and documented in case you ever had to go to court and explain why you had to use additional force against someone that had been pepper sprayed.

Nobody in the 20 person class when I went through had any trouble completing the course. I was the worst one affected by far, I couldn't force my eyes open except for a couple of seconds at a time for about 2 hours afterwards. The trainer had to wait around with me the whole time until I could force them open enough to drive home. One guy was completely unaffected by the stuff, might as well have thrown water in his face. Everyone else was affected in varying degrees, but everyone else could see normally within about half an hour at the most, and nobody had any problem completing the course.

You also have to complete a Taser course to carry a Taser. Part of it includes "riding the lightning" for 3 seconds. Not much fun at all. I wanted to yell "STOP" but couldn't move a muscle. I never saw anyone who wasn't completely immobilized for those 3 seconds. Good thing about it is that once it's over, you're immediately fine.

As others have said, I wouldn't advise carrying a Taser as your only defensive weapon. A bad contact or momentary loss of contact leaves a mad opponent in full fighting condition at close range.

Kiln
April 10, 2012, 04:10 PM
Better check your facts because they're wrong.

The local sheriff's department I'm with requires all officers to complete a pepper spray course before carrying pepper spray. The final segment in the course consists of getting sprayed in the eyes with the LEO-only pepper spray then completing a 3 station obstacle course. Station 1 is 15 seconds of hand strikes against a padded opponent, Station 2 is 15 seconds of leg strikes against a padded opponent, and Station 3 is 15 seconds of baton strikes against a padded opponent. While you're engaged in the baton strikes at Station 3 another opponent comes up behind you and tries to take your duty weapon, forcing you to execute retention tactics.

The reason for the course is to demonstrate that pepper spray does not necessarily incapacitate anyone. It's still their option whether they want to keep fighting or not. Anyone can force their eyes open for a second or so at a time and keep attacking. Everyone's performance was recorded and documented in case you ever had to go to court and explain why you had to use additional force against someone that had been pepper sprayed.

Nobody in the 20 person class when I went through had any trouble completing the course. I was the worst one affected by far, I couldn't force my eyes open except for a couple of seconds at a time for about 2 hours afterwards. The trainer had to wait around with me the whole time until I could force them open enough to drive home. One guy was completely unaffected by the stuff, might as well have thrown water in his face. Everyone else was affected in varying degrees, but everyone else could see normally within about half an hour at the most, and nobody had any problem completing the course.

You also have to complete a Taser course to carry a Taser. Part of it includes "riding the lightning" for 3 seconds. Not much fun at all. I wanted to yell "STOP" but couldn't move a muscle. I never saw anyone who wasn't completely immobilized for those 3 seconds. Good thing about it is that once it's over, you're immediately fine.

As others have said, I wouldn't advise carrying a Taser as your only defensive weapon. A bad contact or momentary loss of contact leaves a mad opponent in full fighting condition at close range.
It disabled me pretty damn well.

45_auto
April 10, 2012, 08:26 PM
It disabled me pretty damn well.

All depends on how much you want to continue to fight.

If you're looking for an excuse to stop, or you're not real dedicated to what you're fighting for, it'll easily "disable" you.

If someone is trying to kill or seriously injure you, or just sprayed you and is heading for your wife or kid with a knife, most people find a way to keep fighting.

Double Naught Spy
April 10, 2012, 10:30 PM
Never bring a knife to a gunfight.
Generally a good rule, but there are those with knives that do manage to win them.

A taser is a police weapon for subduing a suspect when there are several policemen present, and the decision is made to go with nonlethal force.

Interesting, officers had to use a taser when their pistol shots were not effective enough...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skW8yiMfiEQ


I don't know of a single policeman who would use his taser as a self defense weapon.

For self defense, the semi-automatic pistol is the most appropriate choice.

Really? So if a police officer needs to protect him/herself, they should just shoot people?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgJF-nH01gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1O5LHOFhMI

Because it's guaranteed, by Smith & Wesson and Colt.
Wrong on several accounts.

Kiln
April 10, 2012, 10:35 PM
All depends on how much you want to continue to fight.

If you're looking for an excuse to stop, or you're not real dedicated to what you're fighting for, it'll easily "disable" you.

If someone is trying to kill or seriously injure you, or just sprayed you and is heading for your wife or kid with a knife, most people find a way to keep fighting.
Sorry, I forgot rule number "1" in my official unofficial forum survival guide. My bad.

Kiln's Official Unofficial Forum Survival Guide:

1. Everyone that will ever consider robbing you is a 250 lb bodybuilding crackhead with an insatiable thirst for blood and damn near bulletproof skin. Only semi auto bullets starting with a .4, revolver calibers containing the word magnum, or 12 guage shotguns will do for defense.

2. All firearms are bought for the purpose of defense or SHTF situations. Even if you specifically state that it is for target practice (aka plinking), somebody will bring up tactical use, concealed carry, and "stopping power" at some point in the thread.

3. Zombies are no joke, it can and WILL eventually happen. You're either prepared or you're undead, pick one.

4. Will this caliber kill (insert animal) will result in answers about grizzly bears or drug addicts. It is inevitable.

5. Zinc guns will not last 1k rounds before flying apart and blowing off your hand. Everyone has had a buddy who knew a guy who had an uncle that blew his hand off with a J22 and can now only drive an automatic.

6. If you don't know about something, fake it till you make it.

7. Almost everyone around here can shoot the ass off of a fly at 100 yards firing unsupported with their offhand during a blizzard that came during a freak sandstorm.

allaroundhunter
April 10, 2012, 10:47 PM
Kiln, there really is no reason to bring that type of post in here. 45 auto is saying the truth, that pepper spray will not stop everyone. There are plenty of people that are unaffected by it or that can work through it, and no, they are not all 250 lb bodybuilding crackheads.

Just because your experience differs from that of others doesn't mean you have to get defensive about it...

Kiln
April 10, 2012, 11:20 PM
Kiln, there really is no reason to bring that type of post in here. 45 auto is saying the truth, that pepper spray will not stop everyone. There are plenty of people that are unaffected by it or that can work through it, and no, they are not all 250 lb bodybuilding crackheads.

Just because your experience differs from that of others doesn't mean you have to get defensive about it...
I'm just saying I've seen plenty of people pepper sprayed and if you're hit in the eyes they swell shut within seconds. It burns like hell and is blinding. I'm not saying they'll instantly hit the ground but I seriously doubt that you'll be able to pursue anyone after being hit in the eyes with it.

allaroundhunter
April 11, 2012, 04:18 AM
I'm not saying they'll instantly hit the ground but I seriously doubt that you'll be able to pursue anyone after being hit in the eyes with it.

You? Maybe not. But not everyone is the same. The next guy might be able to shrug it off long enough to continue an assault.....

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDUaWexVzsk&feature=related) is a video just to show you that your doubts are misplaced.

ultradoc
April 11, 2012, 07:19 AM
what if she missed with the taser? It's not like you can fire again right away.

45_auto
April 11, 2012, 09:58 AM
It burns like hell and is blinding. I'm not saying they'll instantly hit the ground but I seriously doubt that you'll be able to pursue anyone after being hit in the eyes with it.

Go talk to any cop or MP and ask them about their OC training.

Couple of videos of what happens when people are sprayed directly in the eyes with police or military OC. You have to stand there and take it directly in the eyes. Good luck trying to get anything close to equivalent on a moving, fighting target who doesn't want to be sprayed.

This is similar to the training I had to do - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HFQKaz5XTc&feature=related

Military training video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEoFF7ty2eo&feature=related

Another cop training video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFS2c2Bw3Hg

If you want to believe that it totally disables someone, no big deal. Some people can learn from others, some have to find things out the hard way. Hopefully your learning experience won't cost you or anyone you care about their life.

But I'm just an internet commando, what do I know? Your forum survival rules have me figured out! ;)

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