It's the shooter not the weapon


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Sheepdog1968
April 4, 2012, 12:41 AM
This past weekend I went to shoot some sporting clays with some friends On a good day I hit about 50% of the clays. My pump shotgun took a dump at the second station. For the remainder of the day, I borrowed friends shotguns which were pumps of a different manufacturer and an over under. I shot a bit over 50% which is a good day for me. Just shows that the specific shotgun used didn't have a big impact on how well I did. Not a big deal but I thought I'd share.

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allaroundhunter
April 4, 2012, 02:11 AM
For the most part yes, that holds true.

However, there are some features that make one gun easier for the operator to hit with over another gun. But this doesn't mean that someone can just buy a Perazzi as their first gun and expect to outshoot the guy who has shot his 870 every weekend for the past 20 years.

Sport45
April 4, 2012, 03:32 AM
My pump shotgun took a dump at the second station.

Sometimes the extra money spent upfront is to avoid this.

I can say that without fear as the most valuable shotgun I own is a plain jane Remington 1100. ;)

The-Reaver
April 4, 2012, 05:28 AM
For the most part yes, that holds true.

However, there are some features that make one gun easier for the operator to hit with over another gun. But this doesn't mean that someone can just buy a Perazzi as their first gun and expect to outshoot the guy who has shot his 870 every weekend for the past 20 years.

This^^^^^

Sheepdog1968
April 4, 2012, 11:36 AM
Sometimes the extra money spent upfront is to avoid this.

I can say that without fear as the most valuable shotgun I own is a plain jane Remington 1100. ;)
I had shot 1000 rounds through the shotgun prior without issue. Recently I decided I wanted to have the synthetic furniture changed to wood (20 years ago I would have done the opposite, go figure). It required a different metallic forearm tube in order for a wood forearm to be used. That's the part that failed. It was a weird failure as tow pieces of the metal slipped apart. Local gunsmith who installed it had never seen this kind of thing happen. It can easily be fixed vial silver soldering.

Also, this trip in my friends pump (which he bought in 1979), I had one shell misfire. Waited the 30 seconds or so to remove and there was a proper dent in the primer and it was decent factory ammo. Over the last four years between rifle pistol and shotguns I've probably fired in excess of 20,000 rounds of commercial ammo and I've never seen a misfire (not counting 22s).

Virginian
April 4, 2012, 12:39 PM
True, it is more the indian than the arrow, but I see this type of argument a bit too much from people shooting pumps for there not to be a hint of envy in a lot of the posts. The good shooter with the good gun is still the best combination on average, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

Hunterdad
April 4, 2012, 01:17 PM
For the most part I believe its the shooter.
I have been shooting trap with a Wingamaster with a 30" full choke barrel for over 2 years and averaged around 20-21. I picked up a Tikka 412s O/U a couple weeks ago and shot my first ever 25 with it the first time shooting it.

Was it the shooter or the gun???? We'll never know...

oneounceload
April 4, 2012, 02:19 PM
The gun CAN make a difference - even between the same gun model - IF one fits you perfectly and the other does not.

Pumps are a hindrance on a clay target field where there are pairs in the air, as most folks (not all), tend to move the gun off the target line as they work the pump. On trap singles, it is a non issue. There's a reason you see 75% O/U and 25% semis at a registered sporting clays shoot - they work well for the task at hand - but only if they fit. Once someone starts shooting a high-quality gun with great balance and trigger, they then realize how handicapped they made it for themselves by shooting other types of guns

Dave McCracken
April 4, 2012, 03:59 PM
When I shoot SC with one of my well worn 870s, scores are close to those when I shoot one of the O/Us. A bird or two out of 50.

A me, no es importante. Were I a Steely Eyed Target Shark, it would be.

Rudy Etchen shot 870s better than most everyone shoots anything. But, he also owned and operated a Bespoke Purdey, some Perazzis, and so on.

Owning a shotgun of any kind no more makes you a shotgunner than owning a Stratocaster makes you Clapton.....

oneounceload
April 4, 2012, 05:24 PM
All very true Dave, but I haven't seen a pump in the winner's circle of any sporting clays shoot, skeet shoot, flyer shoot, FITASC shoot or similar, unless it was a deliberate pump contest. All one needs to do is look at what folks in the winner circles shoot - in the Olympics, Perazzi dominates, with Beretta a distant second and everyone else so far down the ladder they can't see the top. In pigeon shoots with serious money on the line -again Perazzi and Fabbri O/U - why? because they just do the best job

Pumps are great guns for certain applications, and in the well-trained hands of an expert do a decent job in some competitions, but as you said:
A bird or two out of 50.

That bird or two out of fifty becomes two to four out of one hundred - enough to knock you from first to worst in your class

Dave McCracken
April 5, 2012, 04:18 PM
1oz, we're on the same page. IMO, Pumps are great for GP use, field guns and so on.

A skeet, trap or SC gun is as specialized as an Indy car.

An aside, I recall reading the match results of a SC tournament.The scores between HOA and 20th place were,IIRC, 10 birds apart out of 200. Each and every bird counts heavily, so top competitors are using what gives them the best chance of hitting that each and every bird.

Let's fantasize a moment. Kim Rhode and I are shooting, she with her well worn Perazzi and I with an equally worn 870.

She kicks my butt.

Next, same game but we swap shotguns.

She kicks my butt again. Her scores may be slightly lower, but not enough to matter
in a head to head contest.

For someone seeking gold in the registered sports, a pump may not be the best choice, even if it fits and is well known to the user.

For Joe Shotgunner out to have fun and get better with his shotgun(s), OK.

And it's still the Injun, not the arrow....

throdgrain
April 5, 2012, 04:24 PM
When I shoot SC with one of my well worn 870s, scores are close to those when I shoot one of the O/Us. A bird or two out of 50.

A me, no es importante. Were I a Steely Eyed Target Shark, it would be.

Rudy Etchen shot 870s better than most everyone shoots anything. But, he also owned and operated a Bespoke Purdey, some Perazzis, and so on.

Owning a shotgun of any kind no more makes you a shotgunner than owning a Stratocaster makes you Clapton.....


I hold the sporting clays record at my local small club, 47 ex 50, shot with my Wingmaster :D

99.9% of the shooters there wouldn't ever even hold a pump gun let alone shoot one!

Dave McCracken
April 5, 2012, 09:38 PM
Good show, Throd.

And those Pump-Challenged folks need to open up their eyes...

throdgrain
April 6, 2012, 03:31 AM
Damn straight my friend :)

Kristensdaddy
April 6, 2012, 08:51 AM
Just for the record. Kenny Barnes shot the first 400x400 in skeet in 1967 using a set of 4 Model 12's. Tube sets in O/U's changed the game since then.

arizona_cards_11
April 6, 2012, 09:23 AM
A good shooter will still outshout an average shooter, regardless of equipment......but like anything else you're trying to do at a high level, good equipment can make a good shooter better.

huntsman
April 6, 2012, 09:24 AM
A good shooter can overcome the deficiencies of a lesser gun and shoot well whereas a marginal shooter can’t, yet the marginal shooter using a better gun may actually shoot better because of the gun.

jmr40
April 6, 2012, 09:35 AM
A good shooter can overcome the deficiencies of a lesser gun and shoot well whereas a marginal shooter can’t, yet the marginal shooter using a better gun may actually shoot better because of the gun.

I sort'a think the opposite is true. Years ago a friend who is also a tennis pro and I were talking. I asked him why his $200 tennis racket was better than the $15 model I bought at K-mart. His reply, "In your hands one is as good as the other, but I can make the $200 racket do things I cannot with a $15 racket". I think the same is true with shooting.

Even with the elite competition shooters the difference in performance between average guns and great guns is very small. But the margin of victory is often very small too, so every little bit helps.

mje
April 6, 2012, 10:16 AM
In marksmanship, errors add up. A tyro whose sights wobble over 6 MOA isn't going to see a lot of difference between a gun that shoots 2 MOA and one that shoots 0.5 MOA. But an expert who can hold his wobble to less than 1 MOA will.

PapaG
April 6, 2012, 10:55 PM
I have been using the same TB 870 since 1972. I have shot trap ( approaching 400,000 shots), some skeet ( not ideal, but with a 26" ic barrel I have more than a few "25's), and with a Hastings barrel have shot more than a few deer. I have other shotguns and have had more than a few dedicated, fairly high dollar shotguns, but have so much trigger time with old TB that it is the one I grab when money is on the line. A pump is never a bad choice....many people have thought they could "buy" a win or a title with a new gun. I've won a pile of money shooting against guns whose names end in "i" or whose owners spent a good down payment towards a luxury car. "ain't the gun, it's the shooter--beware the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it".

hhmorant
April 7, 2012, 08:38 AM
I have been using the same TB 870 since 1972. I have shot trap ( approaching 400,000 shots), some skeet ( not ideal, but with a 26" ic barrel I have more than a few "25's), and with a Hastings barrel have shot more than a few deer.

That's a lot of shells PapaG. Have you had to replace any parts? I'm curious about what wears out or breaks on an 870 after a lot of use.

PapaG
April 7, 2012, 03:42 PM
I replaced the one part in the trigger group at 300,000 rounds, a firing pin 30,000 later. At 350,000 there was a little crack in the receiver at the back of the ejection port. I check drilled it, shot another 25,000 or so and was given a vintage receiver which I transplanted into the gun. Original stock, forend, bolt, trigger group(most of it), full choke barrel (measured .697 new, now is .700) and it almost pumps itself. I shoot doubles with it sometimes and have an I.c. Barrel that has more than a few 25s to its credit.
Interestingly, the trigger broke during our club 's championship match an I came in 2nd. The newxt year, same situation, but this time the firing pin. Won that one with the tb barrel on a borrowed express.

hhmorant
April 7, 2012, 09:50 PM
Thanks - that's just amazing.

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