[CSestp]

This is my first trip to this section of THR. This is by no means to be an insult or attack on smiths. This is just an observation of my experiances with my local smiths. It seems to me that the modern "smith" is next to worthless. Every time I take something to a smith I am always told that "oh those older <insert type of firearm> are impossible to work on or find parts for.". I remember hearing my father tell me about customizing this rifle or that shotgun by taking it to a smith. Now as long as you had the time and the money smiths of old could hook up a 18 inch color tv and sat dish on your whitetail buster.

Today it seems if it isn't a simple tune, scope mount, or something involving an AR or 1911 platform they dont want to mess with it. Every problem I have taken to a smith I have pretty much gotten turned down to later fix at my own home with own tools with a little reading here or a call to a manufacturer. Is this just a isolated problem with me or is this a re-occurring trend?

[LoonWulf]

If its a more complicated repair then say replacing a part then id liken it to taking your vintage car in to have custom work done at your local Napa.

Not all smiths are interested in, or trained properly to work on older firearms, or new ones for that mater. You also have to take into consideration that if a smith works on a gun (especially and OLD gun) they are not familiar with and it blows up, or has some other part failure, its on there head.

Im lucky enough to live near a really good smith that LIKES to do odd things to guns, so Its not an issue ive ever had.

[SimplyChad]

I have to agree with lonewolf not all smiths are created equal. Just like not all doctors are. They each have their speciality and comfort zones. I know more than a few smiths and each has something they are great at. But somethings they just arent practiced doing. 1911 guys vs ARs and what not.

[1911Tuner]

Not many old-school gunsmiths left, I'm afraid. If a part was unavailable, they'd make one. Same for a spring. I've done a little of that in the past, but these days...unless you're dealing with a rare and collectible gun...you'd wind up with more money in the part than the gun is worth. The modern smiths won't put in the time to do it because they know that they'll wind up eating the costs about half the time when the customer decides not to show up to claim the gun.

[thefamcnaj]

I feel just like the op. There is on local guy that calls himself a smith, but only does optic mounting. The other so called smith, couldn't even field strip my 870. There is no one here that can do any real smithing. There is not even a 1911 tuner around here.
I wouldnt know where to go to seek a real smith.

[N.Schafer]

I'll gladly make an old part, but like 1911Tuner said, my time just isn't worth it. Very few people will spend $200-$400 bucks on an old .22 that still wont shoot great but it'll shoot.

"This was my great great grandads gun and I would like to pass it my son. How much to make it functional?"

"$$"

"It's JUST A .22!!! YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO RETIRE OFF OF ME!!! EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE" hangs up.

That gets old after a while.

[stan rose]

I have to agree with the above posters, there is a lot to be said for a smith doing the jobs that bring in guaranteed income. If there is something you want done that your local smith is not interested in go online and find someone who specializes in that area. My first attempt at using a gunsmith was to have a newer style Ithaca barrel fitted to an older style receiver, after the first smith butchered it I found Les Hovencamp of Diamond Gunsmithing, now I simply ship him anything shot gun related. Any thing rifle related goes to either Jack in SC, or John in upstate New York. Once you build a relationship with qualified smiths they will usually go out of their way to keep a satisfied customer, you just have to find them and build a relationship with them, paying in a timely manner works well for starters.

[drsfmd]

I'll gladly make an old part, but like 1911Tuner said, my time just isn't worth it. Very few people will spend $200-$400 bucks on an old .22 that still wont shoot great but it'll shoot.

"This was my great great grandads gun and I would like to pass it my son. How much to make it functional?"

"$$"

"It's JUST A .22!!! YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO RETIRE OFF OF ME!!! EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE" hangs up.

That gets old after a while.

Exactly! And the truth is that most stuff that comes through the door, while it may be a treasured family heirloom, is junk... people just don't want to spend money to fix junk.

[SilentScream]

When I had my shop in Northern Nevada, I was one of the few gunsmiths that would do minor repairs or making grandpa's old .22 functional. But as stated above; depending on the state of disrepair it might get expensive. Up there we had for awhile an issue where none of the local smiths wanted to deal with it unless it was a $2000 or $3000 custom gun.

[CSestp]

Exactly! And the truth is that most stuff that comes through the door, while it may be a treasured family heirloom, is junk... people just don't want to spend money to fix junk.

Thats the deal tho, in one of my experiences. Had my fathers ruger super blackhawk in .44 mag that was given to him by his father thus given to me. Well had some issues with it (mostly a dumb 19 yr old's 1st attempt at smithing). Took it too a "smith" told me it wasn't worth fixing. Told him it is to me, he replied i could buy a new one for how much it was going to be. Said I didn't care, how much do you need? Just gave me a blank stair as he handed my gun back. I understand the gamble situations, but when offering money up front at least as a down payment?!?!

[Cosmoline]

The fact is that working on certain older firearms is a lost art and most gunsmiths don't like to admit flat-out that they are in over their heads with something like a vintage Colt double action revolver. That's no reflection on them, of course. If you brought a Glock to a smith in 1950 he'd be utterly perplexed by it and likely destroy it while trying to fix it.

[788Ham]

I'm really, really lucky in this regard, a "good" smith is just 10 miles up the road from me. I bought a Beretta 1934 .32 auto from a pawn, it needed some "going over" before it would function properly, new springs, some cleaning inside I couldn't get to, lubing and it hasn't missed a beat since. Since that first time, I've bought an SP 101, terrible DA from the factory. Took it in, had the smith put in lighter hammer spring, polished the hammer and a couple of places on the trigger, smoothest revolver I own, other than my Python. The smith is a member of the gun club I belong to, no matter here, he's very good at what he does, and will make parts for rifles that were made over 100 years ago, if shooting it is your forte'. His partner is very good at pistol fixing also, worked for Les Baer for many years.

There are still good smiths out there, like hen's teeth, hard to find.

[Zeke/PA]

not many old-school gunsmiths left, i'm afraid. If a part was unavailable, they'd make one. Same for a spring. I've done a little of that in the past, but these days...unless you're dealing with a rare and collectible gun...you'd wind up with more money in the part than the gun is worth. The modern smiths won't put in the time to do it because they know that they'll wind up eating the costs about half the time when the customer decides not to show up to claim the gun.

I heartilly agree !!

[sugarmaker]

Anyone who has machined an oddly shaped, finely finished, high tolerance, high value hunk of metal knows how much time goes into setup. Sometimes you have to design / machine a fixture just to hold the part so you can modify it properly. Then there is the 1 of a kind, shop designed, machined replacement part. Sometimes you make 2 or 3 before it comes out right. Easy to spend a half day At $65-80 an hour. There isn't a big enough client base with guns valuable enough and spare $$ to support many gunsmiths with toolmaker skills and equipment. I fiddle around with some of my own stuff during slack time, I couldn't justify paying someone as the fix would cost more than the item.

[earlthegoat2]

This is why I am not a professional gunsmith. Real gunsmithing is expensive. Prohibitively expensive in fact. Sure a trigger job on a 1911 or a revolver is still within the expense accounts of most of us still but real world repairs on said firearms, unless minor, will cost quite a bit. There are a few talented smiths out there who can work on Glock, M&P, and xD triggers beyond just changing out a trigger bar but they are few and far between and you would probably be better served as far a value is concerned just swapping a bar yourself or letting the local smith/armorer do it.

Working on the old stuff can be difficult especially when parts are hard to find or impossible to find. That is when a part has to be made. This takes a ton of time even with machinery. A gunsmith has to make a living too just like the HVAC guy who comes to work on your AC. That is why both of these services cost so much.

Im pretty good with hand tools. This is how I was taught to work so this is how I work. Hand tools can take a great deal longer on some jobs which would drive up the cost to the customer if I were to take one on. My services would be rendered obsolete by anyone who had machinery and the skills to use it for those jobs which are usually the more lucrative jobs anyway.

There is reason there are fewer gunsmiths these days. It just does not pay anymore. The most popular guns on the market are plastic fantastics with modularity, drop in parts that do not require fitting, and lifetime warranties on said products.

Revolvers are also on the decline in popularity. These typically require more fitting than the conventional poly framed pistol. As such an old school gunsmith would be the one to call if they ever failed. Once again though, with lifetime warranties offered by companies like S&W and Taurus then the factory becomes the de facto repair shop not the local gunsmith.

[Jim K]

Let's take another view. Plumbers charge $60-80 dollars an hour or more. One in this area charges $80 just to come out, PLUS whatever the materials and labor cost.

While few gunsmiths could (or would want to) get away with that, they should be able to make a decent wage for a skilled professional. That means around $30-50 an hour. Fooling around for 3-4 hours with an old Iver Johnson, trying, say, to make a hand, will cost a lot more than the gun is worth.

Too many gun owners simply refuse to accept that a gun they dug out of the attiic or an old junk box is just junk, and not worth fixing. The gunsmith tells them the gun is not worth fixing, but they harangue him for hours about this valuable gun their grandfather had and blah, blah, blah. Should the gunsmith take on the job, and put in time and money, the customer will then refuse to pay the bill because (yep) the gun isn't worth it.

We often see on this site questions about "restoring" a gun that sold for $1.50 in 1900 and isn't worth much more now. Yet the owner will ask question after question about how to repair, restore, obtain parts for, replace parts in, etc., the old junker. And always the same basic idea - that the gun can be made like new or better at little or no cost.

Sure, a gunsmith should be willing to do the normal jobs, and unless he specializes, he will go broke unless he takes on most regular tasks. But spending hours or days making parts for worthless guns is not something anyone should expect. And few gunsmiths today can work on older guns; that is normal. Try asking your local Ford dealer work on a Model T and see what he says. Yet many of the guns we consider "modern" were in production before the Model T.

Jim

[brigadier]

The most obvious or open problem with smiths and modern firearms is liability. 2 factors. 1, frivolous lawsuits, often by complainants and before juries that know nothing about the finer details of firearm mechanics which actually matter a whole lot.

The second is that manufacturers destruction test everything and figure out what it can and can't take. Modify it beyond the mechanics they have tested and the durability and reliability becomes unknown.

When a gunsmith modifies a gun in to that "unknown" territory, he putts himself in potential jeopardy of being in uninsured grounds and a potential lawsuit.

These legal issues have forced many good old-school gunsmiths to withhold some of their talents while stripping the younger generations of any energy they might have had. In a nutshell, industry is killing innovation.

I can also tell you as an innovator myself and a friend to other innovators that our culture is extremely hostile to new ideas and far more hostile to the kinds of people who come up with them. Our culture and trends are every bit as responsible for holding back progress as any legal reforms or corporate tyranny. The 3 are in reality interwoven.

Individually, people talk about wanting to see this stuff but in the broad picture, total industry and elimination of the private smith is what our culture it's self is striving towards.

On top of a few of my own innovations, I am aware of dozens of other firearm innovations that; combined, would ultimately render everything we're using now obsolete which are being withheld due to the cultural and legal barriers standing in the way.

As a friend of other innovators, both firearm and on other subjects, we sometimes hold each others keys so to speak. I can tell you from the ones I've seen that we are probably being held back by at least 50 years in technology across the board due to the barriers against innovation. I came up with a few things a decade ago that a couple companies today are just now figuring out and others I doubt will be figured out for another 20 years. I know people who've come up with some "every day" stuff that will blow your mind, including a couple permanent or nearly permanent (think of the nuclear reactor of an aircraft carrier longevity) "powered" utilities that people are afraid to reveal.

There's good reason to suggest that under the surface, we may already be a type 1 civilization, and small arms are no exception.

[4v50 Gary]

There are at least half a dozen junior colleges churning out gunsmiths who are skilled machinist and wood workers every year.

Gunsmiths tend to specialize. Some work just on pistols. Others do barrel lining. Others do engraving. Some do custom metal work. Some just do repair. Each finds their niche that they are comfortable with.

[ZeSpectre]

The modern smiths won't put in the time to do it because they know that they'll wind up eating the costs about half the time when the customer decides not to show up to claim the gun.

Been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt

[panhead58ak]

I have been a machinest and mechanic for 30 plus years I am semiretired I have lots of equipment I started tinkering with guns 20 years ago when I couldnt find people to do what I wanted so I learned and did ity myself.I have considered opening my door as a gunsmith but people generally dont want to pay enuff to make it worthwhile Doug turnbull does excellant restorations and he charges accordingly but for the average customer he is priced out of their league. most people want that type of service but wont pay for it.I build a couple customs a year and sell them I dont really make that much but its just a hobby friends and family keep me plenty busy with cheap work and the machine shop work pays the bills

[Steel Horse Rider]

This phenomenon is not limited to gunsmithing. Due to changes in what society and public education consider "important" we are losing the people who have inherent logic or mechanical skills. I am in the commercial refrigeration service business and it has been my experience that fully 50% of the people in any given trade do not have the skills or ability to correctly conduct themselves in their trade, 50% of the remaining understand the skill but do not have the integrity or the motivation to apply themselves. This leaves the remaing 25% to actually do the work properly and they are usually swamped with work. Think about that the next time you get on an airplane or go in for surgery.

[jay21]

^^^NOT being a dick, but you have 125%....i think you mean 50-25-25 in your stats?
that fully 50% of the people in any given trade do not have the skills or ability to correctly conduct themselves in their trade, 50% of the remaining understand the skill but do not have the integrity or the motivation to apply themselves. This leaves the remaing 25%
and i TOTALLY agree with your analogy.

EDIT...i need to read better or after fewer beers :)

[chad6000]

^^^ half plus half of remaining half plus remaining equals whole (.5 + .25 + .25 = 1)

[Jim K]

I have no idea what "innovations" Brigadier means, but in my limited experience lawsuits against gunsmiths are fairly rare. Most of the time, when gunsmiths are sued it is not because of some "innovation" that the "culture" rejects but because of incompetence and actually doing something that makes a safe gun unsafe, such as trigger work that results in an unintentional discharge.

Again, in my limited experience, there have not been many true innovations in the firearms business. That is probably due not so much to the conservatism of gun companies but to the conservatism of the firearms community and to the simple fact that what seems to some inventor to be a tremendous breakthrough that will bring the public flocking to his door is actually either something that has been tried before and didn't work, or something that has no interest or appeal to the customer.

Many inventors are so convinced of their own genius that they attribute lack of interest by investors or buyers as some kind of conspiracy against them by evil forces. That might be possible, but in most cases the evil forces are those who simply can't see the advantages so apparent to the inventor. (The Dardick gun is a prime example; innovative, ingenious, but with no actual advantage over the common auto pistol.)

Jim

[JRH6856]

He said "50% of the remaining..." not "the remaining 50%".


If you brought a Glock to a smith in 1950 he'd be utterly perplexed by it and likely destroy it while trying to fix it.

Just got an image of a polymer frame in a hot blue tank...

[1911Tuner]

If you brought a Glock to a smith in 1950 he'd be utterly perplexed by it and likely destroy it while trying to fix it.

I doubt that. The Glock is fairly simple, and gunsmiths by default have to be pretty adept at figuring out how things work and diagnosing problems. Plus, the Glock is a lot closer to a 1911 than most of its fans realize.

[Old Fuff]

There aren't a whole lot of folks that are seriously interested in being a "real gunsmith" because too many potential customers think that working on guns is such fun that the 'smith should pay the gun owner for letting him fix the gun, rather then the other way around.

Most of today's guns are designed along a modular concept where parts, or even a whole sub-assembly are replaced on a drop-in basis without any special fitting. The idea behind this is to eliminate high labor costs.

So now comes someone with an older classic, where parts (if they are even available) have to be hand fitted, and expect the 'smith can fix it and charge for the work at "drop in" rates.

Gunsmiths are like everyone else in that they have kids to feed and bills to pay. These days you will find that they are part of a larger retail operation or that gun work is a second job. The exception are those that have a reputation that brings in enough work, and customers who are willing to pay for skilled service, so that they can earn a decent living. :scrutiny:

[berettashotgun]

" The next time you get on an airplane" If you only knew what your tax dollars were being spent on at most ALC bases:barf:
That hits home..........skilled trades are actually becoming more valuable with the introduction of the next crop of . . . cell phone addicts :)
Have actually been very fortunate to have Steve Baldwin live close by, as well as James Coffee on my speed dial. Those guys have even helped me with load development. NICE!!
A good gunsmith is a godsend, a great gunsmith ...is a rare commodity.