Problem with Wolf barrel for 9mm Glock 19


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Samari Jack
April 7, 2012, 04:23 PM
Received a Wolf 9mm Luger, I think, barrel for my Glock 19 this past week. Also received my shipment from Misourri bullet Co. for 125 gr RN lead bullets.

Reloaded 20 with 4.2 gr Universal with OAL at 1.122. I used my original Glock barrel as a sizing die. Passed the ker-plunk test with flying colors in my Glock barrel. Even tapped the round in with a light finger tap and still fell out of my Glock barrel without having to shake it out. Tried to shoot 20 that I reloaded as a test load with the Wolf barrel. The slide wouldn't close all the way on the first round with the Wolf barrel and I had a heck of a time getting the slide back to eject the round. Put these twenty into my bullet puller bin for later. Just tried to load some with an OAL even shorter. Was down to 1.108 and still failed the ker-plunk test (see picture of the 125 gr lead). In fact, I could not lightly tap the round in far as it should, at lest with a light tap. My comfort zone was compromised going less than 1.108 with a 125 gr bullet without further advice, especially since my Glock barrel was a good fit.

Diameter after seating is 0.380. Diameter mid case is 0.375. Diameter at case head (the primer end of the brass) is 0.385. Not that it matters but the brass is R-P once fired.

I tried factory R-P new 1.15 gr jacketed round. Seemed to fully insert with a light tap but had to shake hard to get it out. OAL for these factory rounds are 1.175. The jacketed round tapers faster than the lead. I have a few Hornady Factory 115 gr FTX loads that are really short (1.082) and taper rapidly. They passed the ker-plunk test OK.

I hate to think I'm limited to Factory FTX loads.

Any ideas? I bought the barrel from Dillon and plan to give them a call Monday if I'm not messing up somewhere. My packing slip calls it a "LWD GLK 19 BARREL".

The Wolf barrel says 9mm but doesn't say Luger. Not sure if this matters or not.

The pictures are with lead reload in Wolf still sticking out a bit, with Glock barrel, with Hornady FTX.

PICTURES COMING!!

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Samari Jack
April 7, 2012, 04:28 PM
Pictures for above.

Vec
April 7, 2012, 04:34 PM
Two things come to mind:

1) Your new barrel might have less leade than the stock barrel. This is the space between the case mouth and the start of the rifling. If that's the case, you'll need to seat the bullet a bit further in.

2) The new barrel might have a tighter chamber. The lead bullet is 0.001" bigger than a jacketed bullet so that might be the culprit -- though I'd be really surprised if that were the case.

To check for #1, take a fired case that you can slide a bullet into with a little resistance. Start the bullet into the case and press the case into the chamber. The rifling should push the bullet into the case. Push the bullet/case out with a cleaning rod or something. Measure the overall length. Do this a bunch of times to make a good reading. Then, aim for an OAL less than that since you don't want to jam the bullet into the rifling.

Samari Jack
April 7, 2012, 08:40 PM
Two things come to mind:

1) Your new barrel might have less leade than the stock barrel. This is the space between the case mouth and the start of the rifling. If that's the case, you'll need to seat the bullet a bit further in.

2) The new barrel might have a tighter chamber. The lead bullet is 0.001" bigger than a jacketed bullet so that might be the culprit -- though I'd be really surprised if that were the case.

To check for #1, take a fired case that you can slide a bullet into with a little resistance. Start the bullet into the case and press the case into the chamber. The rifling should push the bullet into the case. Push the bullet/case out with a cleaning rod or something. Measure the overall length. Do this a bunch of times to make a good reading. Then, aim for an OAL less than that since you don't want to jam the bullet into the rifling.
Great suggestion for #1. I did this. In order for the round to fall out without shaking or taping the barrel on something I came up with an overall length of 1.055. 1.060 still catches a bit. I have to tap the barrel on a piece of wood to get it to fall out at 1.060. At 1.055, I have 0.325 of the bullet outside the brass and 0.278 inside, give or take a bit for each measurement. Using the bullet diameter+thumb nail length for bullet depth, this is still a bit shy of what I understand it is supposed to be. From the Hodgin website, With Universal/lead I'm supposed to have an OAL of 1.125 with 125 gr RN bullets. With Universal at 4.2, I'm probably compressing the powder a bit in a 9mm brass.

Starting to get out of my comfort zone. I'm not that experienced a reloader. Hopefully, someone else with a Wolf barrel will see this thread and chime in. I'll try to call Wolf the first of next week too.

Hammerdown77
April 7, 2012, 09:03 PM
Don't waste any more time with it, call Wolf and tell them the problems you are having. Their chambers are often too short and tight. Your's is probably too short. I've had a .40 and a 9mm barrel, both with the same problem.

They will finish ream your chamber for you if you call them and tell them your troubles.

Samari Jack
April 7, 2012, 09:12 PM
Don't waste any more time with it, call Wolf and tell them the problems you are having. Their chambers are often too short and tight. Your's is probably too short. I've had a .40 and a 9mm barrel, both with the same problem.

They will finish ream your chamber for you if you call them and tell them your troubles.
Thanks!! Will do. Glad to here from someone with experience. The bullet push thing is still good to know. All kinds of neat tricks not found in books with reloading.

I plan to as Wolf if there 9mm barrels are +P rated too.

I kind of surprised Dillon doesn't warn people about this since most of their products are top shelf. I know they didn't make the barrel but can see potential danger. I plan to call the as well.

Vec
April 7, 2012, 09:18 PM
That being said, the MO Bullet 125gn round bullet has a fatter ogive than normal for a typical 9mm so it might be a bit tight for your barrel.

The Hodgdon site lists a starting load for 125gn w/Universal for 3.8gn. Even with what you have now, seating to 1.055 instead of 1.125 with the starting load should be well within the safety margin. The powder with that load shouldn't be compressed at that point either.

As always, start low and work up.

jack44
April 7, 2012, 09:27 PM
I went thru the same as you Jack bought from Dillon slide wont close all the way want to shoot lead not jacked! same bullets to!!

Samari Jack
April 7, 2012, 10:27 PM
I was just reading the FAQ of Wolf's web site. Mentioned a $30.00 charge for reaming to meet specific handloads. I may have to fuss if they charge me extra. My view is the barrel should meet dimensions of commonly used rounds with established loads without getting into dangerous overpressure and in the case of an auto, a length that cycles the slide. If these criterion are not on the menu, let purchasers know ahead of time.

jim243
April 7, 2012, 11:39 PM
Since the standard weight for 9mm is 115 grain FMJ or JHP, I would imagine that that is what Wolf was aiming for when they made your barrel. 124 grain and 147 grain 9mm Luger is a longer bullet.

Jim

GLOOB
April 8, 2012, 12:01 AM
Seat your bullets shorter. If you get down to 1.055"and it still doesn't fit, then you can call that chamber too tight.

I've put 1k MBC Small Ball through LW and stock Glock barrels. All seated to 1.055" so they could fit in a Daewoo DP51 I used to own. My LW barrel is pretty generous, IIRC, but not quite as long in the leade as the Glock. But I still seat this bullet to 1.055" because if I ever buy a new gun, I want my reloads to fit in it.

What you guys are calling a problem, other people call a feature, aka "match grade barrel." If this barrel is defective, then all XD's are defective.

My view is the barrel should meet dimensions of commonly used rounds with established loads
So you have to test it by established standards, such as with a big name manufacturer bullet that lists a minimum recommended OAL. Where did you establish that the MBC is supposed to seat at least 1.108"?

I cite 1.055" as an "established OAL" for the MBC, because this was the max that would chamber in my DP-51. Same gun would barely chamber a 124 gr XTP at the manufacturer recommended OAL for that particular bullet (which was listed on the box as 1.06" IIRC). So I'd say 1.055" is a pretty close estimation for the 125 gr MBC Small Ball as a standard reference. Just cuz my stock Glock barrel can chamber these bullets with a much longer OAL doesn't make the LW or the Daewoo barrel defective.

So if you don't like the idea of loading to an OAL shorter than 1.1", you might have to blame the bullet, not the barrel.

coalman
April 8, 2012, 01:29 AM
LWD barrels are tight, at the low end of spec IMO. I have to load everything short in all 9mm and .45acp LWD barrels I've run w/ lead; pretty much to the driving band.

Samari Jack
April 8, 2012, 09:59 AM
GLOOB,

After reading your post, I went to my Lyman 49th edition. It listed an OAL for 120 gr #2 Alloy at 1.065 for all the powders listed. Universal, HP-38, and WSF are the only powders I have and are not listed. Doesn't seem like the rate of burn or type of powder makes much difference in OAL for these bullets. Curious as to why the OAL is so much less in Lyman's than Hodgdon's data. From 1.125 to 1.065 seems a lot for the same bullet, but then again I'm still learning about this reloading bit.

I feel a little better about loading to 1.055 now after reading input from others. I still plan to contact Wolf and maybe Hodgdon before I actually shoot the barrel and start at the lowest recommended powder weight.

bds
April 8, 2012, 12:09 PM
Samari Jack, Lone Wolf barrels are cut tight, meant for jacketed bullet diameter loads, and loading larger diameter lead bullets will take more reloading consistency/work on your part.

1. First things first. Can you verify that all factory rounds fall in the chamber freely with a "plonk"? If they do, your LW barrel is within specs for jacketed bullet loads and you'll need to look at your reloading process.


2. Next, can you verify that all of the resized cases you are using to make test rounds fall freely into the chamber? If they don't, they need to be full-length resized until they do. Some "hot" loads in generous factory barrels/chambers will expand the case base and won't resize fully - When I resize a case that requires more effort, I check to make sure the bottom of the resizing die is "kissing" the top of the shell holder/plate. If not, I will rotate the case 90 degrees and resize again then drop the case into the LW chamber to check. If it won't fully chamber, I consider the case expanded too much/case wall thinned and toss the case into the bin for recycling.

To rule out this reloading variable, can you remake all of your MBC test rounds with resized cases that passed the chamber drop test?


3. Double-check the diameter of the bullet - They should be sized at .356".


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151344&stc=1&d=1319305687

4. Missouri 125 gr RN bullet nose is shorter and rounder than typical pointed "parabellum" or "stepped" 9mm lead bullets to allow for longer bearing surface/easier feeding in some newer pistols and will need to be seated deeper. For my LW barrels, I use 1.080"-1.100" OAL and they feed/chamber reliably in G17/G22/G27.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152505&stc=1&d=1320990449


5. Your test rounds not seating fully may not be due to OAL but from not enough taper crimp. If you are using combination bullet seat/taper crimp die for tight chambers (Lone Wolf, Sig 1911, etc.), there is a point where not enough taper crimp won't seat the round fully in the chamber and too much taper crimp will bulge the case neck to also not fully chamber the round (This is one of the reasons why some reloaders prefer to seat and taper crimp in separate steps).

For .356" sized bullets, I need to use .376" taper crimp for Lone Wolf barrels as these will drop snuggly fully into the chambers. .377" taper crimp will rub the chamber lightly but will fully chamber with the weight/force of the slide returning to battery.

Make a test round at 1.080" OAL and .376" taper crimp and see if it drops freely into the chamber and feed reliably from the magazine. If it does, then test 1.100" OAL with .376" taper crimp. If both OALs chamber fully, especially if you are loading on a progressive press, I would set the OAL at 1.090" to allow for some OAL variations to fluctuate between 1.080"-1.100".

If .376" taper crimp won't allow the rounds to fully chamber (even with a light rubbing of chamber), then you may need to have your chamber enlarged. Lone Wolf warranty is for jacketed diameter bullet specs and they will charge to enlarge the chamber for larger lead diameter loads. You can enlarge the chamber yourself as you only need to enlarge the chamber by .001" or so. I enlarged a G27 Lone Wolf chamber on this thread using automotive wet/dry sandpaper - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=561116

Samari Jack
April 8, 2012, 03:15 PM
bds,

The 1.080 OAL with Missouri 125 gr RN with a .376 crimp seems to be the charm.

I have a 550B reloader with separate stations for bullet seating and another for the crimp.

I did the ker-plunk test with the only three factory 9 mm rounds I have. R-P, Speer Lawman, and Hornady critical defense FTX. The R-Ps I checked were the only snug factory round. It had to be shaken a bit to get it out but not to any extreme. The others just fell out while inverted.

I checked my once fired brass after sizing and they fell out of the LW barrel when inverted.

The diameter of my Missouri bullets I checked are .355. You mentioned .356. I figure +-.001 most likely is due to my operator error, not a factor, and in this instance, less is better.

Seems most of my problems were due to not enough crimp on the Missouri RN lead bullets once I shortened the length. Once I got the crimp down to .356, the round fell fully into the barrel. With inversion, the round didn't fall out but a light tap with my finger on the side of the barrel shook it out.

I'm probably going to give this a try with 3.8 gr Universal as a starting point since this is what is in my hopper. Probably end up with HP-38 as the preferred powder.

The major reason I bought this barrel was to avoid the leading, (or supposedly leading) issues with a stock Glock barrel. If I would have known there was this kind of problem with the LW barrel, I doubt I would have purchased one. Not worth the aggravation. Thankfully, the Berry's plated bullets I've already loaded seem to fall in & out OK. I'll probably check each one before firing through the LW barrel.

I'll check the other three 9's I own too before firing but don't anticipate a problem with them. The oldest is a Browning High Power. I figure it was raised on lead bullets:).

jack44
April 8, 2012, 03:48 PM
I'm DONE WITH THE GLOCK 19! I'm buying a 9mm revolver this way no PROBLEMS! I spent 100.to buy the LW barrel now it's to tight! forget that I'm putting the gun up 4 sale 450 it's yours.:mad:

bds
April 8, 2012, 10:44 PM
Samari Jack, there are benefits of using aftermarket barrels in Glocks with square cut land/groove rifling. Glock barrels have longer leade with very smooth start of rounded hill/valley hexagonal rifling (see picture below). The longer leade and smooth start of rifling allow more high pressure gas to escape around the bullet and causes more fouling build up and may not allow the bearing surface of the bullet to grip the rifling to rotate with the rifling down the barrel.

When shooting lead bullets in Glock barrels, I have had somewhat adequate results using W231/HP-38 at mid-to-high range load data. With 18 BHN Missouri 9mm and 40S&W bullets, I do not get leading in my Glock barrels but do get more fouling build up along the rifling. Below are pictures of Glock 17 barrel after I did some range test with MBC 125 gr RN and SWC loads with W231/HP-38. Yes, that's fouling build up and not leading. Note that the picture on the right of the muzzle end shows significant fouling build up only after about 100 rounds. When shooting lead loads in factory Glock barrels, I usually inspect my barrels after 200-300 rounds and clean as necessary. Despite the fouling build up, accuracy was maintained as 7-10-15 yard shot groups off hand were comparable. The fouling build up was removed with a copper bore brush after a Hoppes #9 solvent soak.

Chamber end of barrel / Muzzle end of barrel
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151380&stc=1&d=1319341855
Chamber end of barrel / Muzzle end of barrel
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151381&stc=1&d=1319341855



In comparison, below are LW 40-9 G22/G27 conversion barrels with several hundred rounds of same MBC 125 gr RN loads shot through. If you look at the "dirty" barrel pictures, fouling build up is less and greater accuracy is maintained. Unlike fouling build up in the Glock barrel, the picture on the right of the muzzle end of the barrel shows less fouling build up even after several hundred rounds of lead reloads. The LW barrels cleaned up well with Hoppes #9 soaked copper bore brush. Any fouling/lead residue that won't comes out clears easily with old bore brush wrapped with copper scrubber strands (chore boy).

Chamber end of barrel / Muzzle end of barrel
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162418&stc=1&d=1333939386
Chamber end of barrel
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162419&stc=1&d=1333939386

RhinoDefense
April 9, 2012, 09:22 AM
I'm DONE WITH THE GLOCK 19! I'm buying a 9mm revolver this way no PROBLEMS! I spent 100.to buy the LW barrel now it's to tight! forget that I'm putting the gun up 4 sale 450 it's yours.
It's not the gun, it's the crappy barrel made by LWD that's the problem. You can send it back to LWD and have them open the throat like they should have done in the first place or you can pay attention to what is being told to the OP to make his ammunition fit the chamber. Then work up your load slowly. Yet another option is to return your LWD and get a better quality barrel from KKM that won't have issues that the LWD barrel is known for having.

Throwing your hands up in frustration is not going to solve any problems. It never has.

Furthermore, buying a 9mm revolver presents a whole different set of variables. If you're this quick to give up on an autopistol, you will encounter a nightmare when you have to deal with 6 chamber throat dimensions plus the barrel's groove diameter.

Relax, fix this problem using the advice given before you waste money on a set of new problems.

jack44
April 9, 2012, 04:24 PM
Well Rhino I seated the lead bullet to 1.030 and it still got stuck!.

RhinoDefense
April 10, 2012, 01:46 AM
The barrel sucks because it's made by a company that doesn't understand what they are doing when it comes to chamber and throat dimensions. That's your problem.

Your solution has been stated: send it back and have LWD throat the chamber or get rid of the LWD barrel and buy a barrel from someone who actually knows what they are doing, like KKM.

jack44
April 10, 2012, 08:48 AM
Hey Rhino what if I use 115gr.lead thats should fed ......right? As far as the LW barrel yeah I'm selling it.

RhinoDefense
April 10, 2012, 08:55 AM
Are you paying attention to anything that has been said here? I suggest you read the thread again.

Samari Jack
April 10, 2012, 02:51 PM
Did some test loads using the 125 Gn lead MBC bullets. Tried OAL at 1.080, 1.090 with 3.8 gr Universal. They wouldn't fall in and fall out but a light tap with my finger dislodged them from the barrel at 1.080. At 1.090 I had to push them in place and put these in the "puller box", choosing not to force the issue without further feedback or testing. Chrimp was as mentioned above. Test fired at 1.080. I didn't let the slide slam closed but eased the action closed allowing only the slide spring to fully close on the bullet for the first round in my magazine. All twenty in my test batch function without a hiccup in my Glock 19 with the LW barrel.

I notice when measuring the OAL that some of the RN bullets have a bit more of a flat nose than others. I measured the OAL of these bullets, not loaded, and noticed a difference of up to 0.012 in length. I suppose getting slapped around in the box could have flattened some of them a bit. My 550B actually pushes on the shoulder of the bullet instead of the tip resulting in varied OAL. What seem to be a better indication of bullet seating depth is to eyeball first and measure, if applicable, the filed down ring around the bullet or the dull area around the base of the bullet. Probably not the right terminology but hopefully the picture explains what I'm talking about. The picture also shows some with a point flatter than others.

The chrony speeds kind of surprised me with this somewhat light load when compared to plated or jacketed bullets with the same powder load. Throwing out the high and low average for 10 rounds was 1,046. Not exactly a hot load but satisfactory for practice purposes. At least it cycled.

bds
April 10, 2012, 03:35 PM
Did some test loads using the 125 Gn lead MBC bullets. Tried OAL at 1.080, 1.090 ... wouldn't fall in and fall out but a light tap with my finger dislodged them from the barrel at 1.080. At 1.090 I had to push them in place.
Keep in mind that your chamber will get tighter as you shoot and fouling will build up on chamber surface. I lean towards finishing my rounds so they fall in/out freely to allow for some fouling build up and still maintain reliably feeding/chambering. If you are at your reloading dies' limits in attaining such finished dimensions before starting to swage the bullet base, light polishing of the forward part of the chamber with automotive wet/dry sandpaper will enlarge the chamber and give you reliable feeding and chambering, even with a dirty chamber from shooting several hundred rounds. ;)


The chrony speeds kind of surprised me with this somewhat light load when compared to plated or jacketed bullets with the same powder load. Throwing out the high and low average for 10 rounds was 1,046. Not exactly a hot load but satisfactory for practice purposes.
I have shot older generations of 9mm lead bullet designs that were more pointed and had shorter "stepped" bullet base and I think the shorter/rounder bullet nose shape of MBC 125 gr RN that allows for longer bearing surface provides better seal with the barrel, which would result in more consistent chamber pressures and higher velocities.

Look forward to your range report as you work up your powder charges.

Samari Jack
April 10, 2012, 07:32 PM
bds,

light polishing of the forward part of the chamber with automotive wet/dry sandpaper will enlarge the chamber and give you reliable feeding and chambering, even with a dirty chamber from shooting several hundred rounds.

I think I have some 600 grit paper. What grit would you recommend? I have a wood dowel I could saw a notch in it or use a cleaning rod to hold the paper. I'm assuming this would be done in stages, trial and error to not sand to much. There seems to be a rather sharp, abrupt step in the barrel at the junction of the chamber and the rifling, more so than the stock Glock barrel.. I suspect this is what is contacting the lead. I thought about putting some chalk on the bullet to check. What about polishing a bit out of this step as well?

kingmt
April 10, 2012, 08:33 PM
I think you should send it back along with a cartridge you plan on using & let them tune it for you.

I would like for you to stay safe & I don't think you have these skills. After keeping a eye on this thread I would suggest you get help.

bds
April 10, 2012, 08:59 PM
I agree. If you lack the skills or feel uncomfortable modifying your Lone Wolf barrel (which will void the life-time warranty), I would recommend you send it to Lone Wolf to have the chamber enlarged.

If you possess the skills and understand the consequence of voiding the warranty, here are step-by-step instructions. You don't need to do much sanding/polishing as you are essentially removing about .001" of forward part of the chamber wall.

There seems to be a rather sharp, abrupt step in the barrel at the junction of the chamber and the rifling, more so than the stock Glock barrel.. I suspect this is what is contacting the lead. I thought about putting some chalk on the bullet to check. What about polishing a bit out of this step as well?
No. That step is where the case mouth/edge of case neck "headspaces" and you do not want to sand/polish that area. You just want to work on forward half of the chamber wall (see picture).

To verify where it was "tight", as rcmodel usually recommends, I painted a finished round with a marker and seated firmly in the chamber. The rubbed mark showed that the case neck was rubbing the forward part of the chamber and this is where I focused my chamber sanding/polishing.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162531&stc=1&d=1334105745
I think I have some 600 grit paper. What grit would you recommend? I have a wood dowel I could saw a notch in it or use a cleaning rod to hold the paper. I'm assuming this would be done in stages, trial and error to not sand to much.
I highly recommend you use wet/dry sand paper meant for automotive body work (they are a few dollars at Walmart/most automotive stores). Use the wooden dowel and not the cleaning rod as you will have greater control when rotating the dowel to sand/polish the chamber.

Here are the step:

1. Taper crimp a flared case (no bullet) to .377" diameter (.380" is SAAMI chamber max for 9mm) and use it as a gauge. If you have some concern whether your calipers are accurate, use one of your loaded rounds that's on the larger side/fit tighter in the chamber as the gauge BUT ensure there is no flare left and case neck is returned flat on the bullet!

2. Use a dowel or pen/marker cap that's slightly smaller than the forward part of the chamber (Keep in mind that 9mm is a tapered round).

3. Start with P220 grit wet/dry sand paper (I use it dry) and cut a piece to wrap around the dowel/cap so they fit snug with the forward part of the chamber (Note picture: I wrapped the sandpaper below the tip of the dowel/cap so I would not polish the leade or the step where the case mouth headspaces). Use a continuous rotating motion and focus the sanding on the forward part of the chamber. After a few turns, push the .377" taper crimp round in the chamber to test - you want the round to chamber just snug as you'll be polishing the chamber next (you can always remove material but can't put back ;)).

Caution: I exercised care not to sand/polish the chamber mouth or the ramp area. Also, ensure you are sanding/polishing the chamber walls evenly and not just a part.

4. When you are able to push the .377" taper crimp round "snuggly" in the chamber fully, change to P400/P800 grit wet/dry sandpaper and finish polishing the chamber until the .377" taper crimp round falls into the chamber freely with a "plonk".

5. Load a MBC 125 gr RN test round using 1.080" OAL and .377" taper crimp. The test round should fall in the chamber freely with a "plonk". If not, polish the chamber until it does.

Samari Jack
April 10, 2012, 09:16 PM
I think you should send it back along with a cartridge you plan on using & let them tune it for you.

I would like for you to stay safe & I don't think you have these skills. After keeping a eye on this thread I would suggest you get help.
Yours is a reasonable suggestion I have considered. I have an e-mail request in route. Before I send it back and pay $30.00 plus shipping both ways (matter of principle) I would give the light sanding a try using the dimensions of my Glock barrel as a max guide. This won't be like honing out a cylinder bore on an engine but more a light dressing if I do decide to try it. I don't plan to use the Wolf barrel for anything other than target loads, no +P. When carrying for CCW purposes I would use the Glock barrel with Hornady factory loads.

As far a skills, if I didn't try I would never learn a new skill. I'm comfortable with my good judgement and common sense and m aware of reckless consequences.

bds
April 10, 2012, 09:18 PM
Keep us posted. Remember, you can always remove more metal, but can't put back. ;)

Samari Jack
April 10, 2012, 09:21 PM
bgs,

Thanks. Love your detailed drawings. The warranty on $100.00 item don't rock my boat.

bds
April 10, 2012, 09:30 PM
Although I have done some work on 1911 (hand fitting parts, trigger job, etc.), first time I enlarged the Lone Wolf chamber, I was a little concerned when I started sanding the chamber (I must have tested the chamber with my test round countless times so I didn't over-sand/polish).

The enlarged G27 LW barrel has worked reliably without any feeding/chambering issues using various Missouri 140/155/170/180 TCFP/SWC loads.

Let us know how it goes!

kingmt
April 11, 2012, 07:45 AM
I'll ask again. Why not use the Glock barrel for your lead bullets?

bds
April 11, 2012, 12:15 PM
Why not use the Glock barrel for your lead bullets?
I do shoot lead reloads in factory Glock barrels, but IME fouling builds up faster and gets crusty along the rifling, essentially making a smooth bored barrel if the fouling builds up too much, not to mention the potential for chamber pressure increase due to narrowing of the bore. Due to these reasons, at the range, I usually inspect Glock barrels at 200-300 rounds and clean as necessary as continued fouling build up also affects accuracy of my shot groups.

With Lone Wolf barrels, there is no hard crusting build up along the rifling, just burnt lube residue. I have shot over 500 rounds in one range session with no leading and accuracy was maintained.

Below are comparison pictures of G17 factory barrel after about 100 rounds of lead reloads and Lone Wolf G22 40-9 conversion barrel after several hundred rounds (I think about 350+). You can see the hard crusting building up along the rifling at the muzzle end (picture on the right). In comparison, LW barrel is only showing burnt lube residue.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151380&stc=1&d=1319341855
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162418&stc=1&d=1333939386


Of course, clean up is an issue for me and this is where LW barrels edges out factory Glock barrels. The factory Glock barrel required more work to get the fouling cleared and I needed to soak the barrel with Hoppes #9 to get all the crusting along the rifling removed. For the LW barrel, I just needed to dip my old copper bore brush wrapped with copper scrubber strands in Hoppes #9 and run it back and forth several times, same as for my M&P40/45 and Sig 1911 barrels.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151381&stc=1&d=1319341855
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162419&stc=1&d=1333939386

Samari Jack
April 11, 2012, 08:59 PM
What does this mean?? Link to this statement.
2 Every once in awhile a Failure To Feed/Failure To Eject (FTF/FTE) is caused by a fit issue. We resolve fit issues by pumping +P or +P+ ammunition through the gun. This hot ammunition provides extra pressure and the pressure will positively align any and all components. Once they are all aligned there is no longer a fit issue. The FTF/FTE is usually resolved.http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=FAQ%20page

kingmt
April 11, 2012, 09:34 PM
Sounds like they want you to beat the gun to a fit.

Get a bigger hammer kind of thing.

bds
April 12, 2012, 12:25 AM
What does this mean?
That's from LWD's FAQ page for 40-9 conversion barrel.

Several manufactures are currently producing low powered 115 gr 9mm loads. This ammunition is also known to produce failures in all standard model Glock 9mm pistols.
Failure to reliably cycle the slides of Gen4 Glocks with some factory target loads have been discussed in various threads. This also applies to reloads. For my Gen3 G22/G27, with 115 gr FMJ, I need to use high-to-near max load data to reliably cycle the slide, especially when the recoil spring assembly (RSA) is new and stiffer. If you haven't replaced the RSA in your Glocks, the spring rate would be less than when new and will cycle the slide with mid-range load data. But pop in a new RSA, you may need to increase the powder charge.

Gen4 Glocks are not for sale in California so perhaps others can comment but many posted they have even stiffer RSA requiring higher powder charges to reliably cycle the slide.


Here's some more from the link.
9mm Conversions:

LWD 9mm conversion barrels will allow you to shoot 9mm ammunition from your Glock 40 S&W or 357 Sig handgun. These conversion barrels are easy to use and install the same as any other barrel, simply drop it in, no gunsmithing or other modifications are required. We do recommend you use the correct 9mm magazine with these conversion barrels to guarantee reliable feeding.

About 1% of our 9mm conversion barrels are affected by the poor performance of low powered 115 grain ammunition causing a Failure To Eject (FTE). A good example of ammunition that is “most likely to fail” is Winchester White Box (WWB). This rare failure is too low a percentage to make an issue, however it is one we are well aware of. The fix to resolve this issue is quite simple:

1 Clean and lube your slide and barrel.
2 Shoot 1 mag to 1 box of good quality +P or +P+ ammunition through the barrel.
3 Try the FTF ammunition again. If it runs... great! If you experience more failures you will have a couple choices to make:
Fix A Reduce the recoil spring weight to 11 lbs. Cost is about $25 for stainless steel guide rod and reduced power spring. (insert link to GR here)
Fix B Shoot 124 gr or a better quality 115 gr ammunition exclusively. The FTF 115 gr ammunition you are currently using is no longer a valid option.

What causes this problem? Several issues come into play.
1 The 40 slide and (40 conversion) barrel are thicker than standard 9mm slides and barrels. This extra thickness equates to more weight. The combined extra weight taps the energy of the "weak 115 gr ammunition” to its complete demise. It simply lacks in power and fails to reliably eject the spent round.
2 Every once in awhile a Failure To Feed/Failure To Eject (FTF/FTE) is caused by a fit issue. We resolve fit issues by pumping +P or +P+ ammunition through the gun. This hot ammunition provides extra pressure and the pressure will positively align any and all components. Once they are all aligned there is no longer a fit issue. The FTF/FTE is usually resolved.

FYI: Several manufactures are currently producing low powered 115 gr 9mm loads. This ammunition is also known to produce failures in all standard model Glock 9mm pistols.

kingmt
April 12, 2012, 06:22 AM
I will vouch for the weak ammo. Last weekend I was sitting up my chrono & put 2 Federal(red & black box) across it. The first shot was 800 & change second was more like a puft instead of bang & was only 400 & change. The cases were really dirty. I shoot about 20 & recovered at least 15 just laying on the top of the ground.

Slide doesn't lock back ether. I let my sister shoot it a few weeks ago & put factory in it. She keep haveing FTF/FTE. i keep trying to see what she was doing wrong. Looking back I think I found the answer.

don p
April 12, 2012, 07:24 AM
I have to ask why not just use your factory Glock barrel?
I have been shooting lead through my Glocks since I started reloading in 2007 and all I shoot is lead and nothing has blown up. I have run 250 rounds through my glocks at any given range session without issue. :banghead:

Samari Jack
April 12, 2012, 08:15 AM
What does this mean?? Link to this statement.
2 Every once in awhile a Failure To Feed/Failure To Eject (FTF/FTE) is caused by a fit issue. We resolve fit issues by pumping +P or +P+ ammunition through the gun. This hot ammunition provides extra pressure and the pressure will positively align any and all components. Once they are all aligned there is no longer a fit issue. The FTF/FTE is usually resolved.http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=FAQ%20page
A person could read shooting +P+ loads as a way of expansion, i.e. swelling the barrel a bit to better "align" the barrel, compensating for tight deminsions. In any event, align used in this context, to me means change, bend or expand some part of the barrel. Not something I would think the manufacturer would or should recommend.

bds
April 12, 2012, 12:09 PM
Samari Jack, Lone Wolf barrels are cut to "drop-in" specs and all the barrels I have used and other shooters who have bought LW barrels I know also performed reliably without any hand-fitting by a gunsmith (Actually, I am thinking about getting a KKM barrel for my G22 with the understanding I'll need to do some final fitting).

I think there are two separate issues LW FAQ page is addressing regarding the 40-9 conversion barrels:

1. Failure to eject and reliably cycle the slide "all the time" with certain lower powered 115 gr factory ammo. If higher powered 115 gr ammo and heavier 124/125 gr ammo reliably cycles the slide and ejects spent casing, the problem is not the barrel but the ammunition used. In this case, you'll need to use ammunition with high enough powder charge to address the FTE issue.

As an example, with .355" diameter 115 gr FMJ bullets and W231/HP-38 with 1.125"-1.135" OAL, at 4.5 gr powder charge, the slides of my G22/G27 starts to reliably cycle and eject spent cases. Accuracy will continue to improve until 4.8 gr, which BTW is my reference load for 9mm and recoils more than Winchester white box and other factory target loads.


2.
A person could read shooting +P+ loads as a way of expansion, i.e. swelling the barrel a bit to better "align" the barrel, compensating for tight deminsions.
Every once in awhile a Failure To Feed/Failure To Eject (FTF/FTE) is caused by a fit issue. We resolve fit issues by pumping +P or +P+ ammunition through the gun. This hot ammunition provides extra pressure and the pressure will positively align any and all components. Once they are all aligned there is no longer a fit issue. The FTF/FTE is usually resolved.

What the ???? :eek: - This I don't agree with.

Lone Wolf advertises their barrels as "drop-in" and if FTF/FTE occurs due to outer barrel dimensions being too large, requiring "fitting" either by hand or using higher powered ammunition, is not acceptable to me - That's not "drop-in" and Lone Wolf should service the barrel under their warranty. Shooting +P/+P+ ammunition won't expand/enlarge the thicker chamber wall of the 40-9 conversion barrel, just move the barrel faster to "hammer-forge fit" the outer dimensions of the stainless steel barrel against Tenifer treated harder surfaces of Glock slide. If you have some +P/+P+ ammunition on hand, that's one thing but a box of factory +P/+P+ ammo will probably cost more than shipping charge to send the barrel back to Lone Wolf. I think the solution to this problem is better Quality Control inspections so their customers all receive truly "drop-in" barrels all the time. ;)

bds
April 12, 2012, 10:26 PM
Samari Jack, I couldn't find the wet/dry sandpaper or the marker I used (wife apparently did some spring cleaning) so I used some black card stock paper wrapped around a pencil for the illustration.

The sandpaper was wrapped around the dowel/pencil "counter-clockwise" and the dowel/pencil was rotated clock-wise as to not loosen the wrapped sandpaper. While holding the barrel with my left hand and slowly turning, I applied downward pressure on the tip of the dowel/pencil to sand/polish the forward part of the chamber while not sanding/polishing the chamber mouth/ramp area.

To not sand/polish the chamber step to the leade/start of rifling, I measured the length of the chamber and held a reference mark with my thumb so the edge of the sandpaper would not touch the step area.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162636&stc=1&d=1334284007

GLOOB
April 13, 2012, 01:48 AM
(which will void the life-time warranty)
This cracks me up how people care about a warranty on a $100 piece of milled steel. It either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you'd already know it. :) If it's not defective, the only things you could do to mess it up will void the warranty. It's not like you're gonna drop it and crack the screen or turn it on one day and get the red ring of death. :)

By all means, if you prefer the chamber isn't so tight, open it up a little. It's your barrel. Do what you want to it.

carlspeed
September 14, 2012, 01:53 PM
How did this work out for you? I bought a conversion barrel for my Glock 20 so that I could shoot inexpensive reloads out of it when I was hunting for fun. I got the barrel, and I have to crimp the bullet so much to get it to be just push fit that it's ridiculous. I refuse to pay Lone Wolf $30 to fix something that shouldn't be broken. It's like buying a truck to pull a trailer, and when you get the truck it drives but won't pull a trailer. You call the manufacturer and they say, "oh, well isn't designed to pull all trailers, just some of them. If you want to give us another $30,000, we can make your new truck pull whatever trailer that you want." :mad: I'm not sure if I'm going to sell the barrel or try the method here.

FWIW, anyone who reads this thread, my KKM barrel in my competition G24 actually shoots lead through it like the manufacturer promised. Shocking. :rolleyes:

Sapper771
September 14, 2012, 02:31 PM
I had a similar issue with my LWD barrel for my G17.

It turned out that it wasnt the leade, OAL, or the bullets.

According to Mr.Shepard of LWD, It was from using brass that had been previously fired in a Glock factory barrel. The glock chamber is pretty liberal in tolerance. Turned out that the case head would expand just enough to keep it from chambering in the LWD barrel. The sizing die doesnt size down enough to take care of this.

Try taking a factory round and see if it chambers ala the drop test. If you dont have one, try a piece of virgin brass.

What I had to do was load virgin brass just for the LWD barrel. Also had to keep this brass segregated from my other brass.

plateshooter
September 14, 2012, 03:09 PM
I have several LWD barrels. Had a problem with my lead loads in my 10-40 and 10mm T barrel failing the kerplunk test. Try adjusting your crimp die to crimp a bit tighter. That took care of the problem that I had with both of my barrels.

I am using a Lee 175 TC cast bullet. Works great in the 10mm and 40 S&W for me.

My experience, yours may vary.

bodam
September 14, 2012, 03:59 PM
I bought a LF barrel for my G23 and it will not even feed factory ammo, nevermind my reloads. I sent it back to LW, and they acknowledged that it had a problem. They "fixed" it and sent it back.

It still doesn't feed 100%. 2 total rounds through it. Jams up tight.

Now it sits on my dresser

bds
September 14, 2012, 04:53 PM
my KKM barrel in my competition G24 actually shoots lead through it like the manufacturer promised. Shocking.
I have several 40S&W replacement and 40-9 conversion Lone Wolf barrels for G22/G23/G27 and recently got a KKM 40-9 conversion barrel.

The KKM chamber is looser than Lone Wolf chambers although Lone Wolf 9mm chambers will feed and fully chamber .356" sized lead loads taper crimped to .377" without any issues. Of course, they work well in KKM chamber also. Both LW and KKM 40-9 barrels have comparable case base support as factory Glock 9mm barrels.

It is the 40S&W Lone Wolf chambers that fully supports the case base that have tighter chambers. For me, this is a plus as I do not experience any case bulge down to the case base and resizing the spent cases is effortless. I will admit that when using .401" sized lead bullets, the chambers are tight and I did have to polish one up a bit (~ .001") and now it reliably feeds and fully chambers .422" taper crimps lead loads.

bodam, send me that "tight" LW barrel and I'll put it to good use. :D (PM sent)

carlspeed
September 15, 2012, 04:07 AM
BDS, it's not worth posting on the other forum too, so I'm just saying it here. If LWD claims to be such a "match grade" barrel provider, they shouldn't market their customer base with claims of lead shootability from a drop-in barrel. The barrel should be able to shoot the vast majority of cast bullets, and not just 1 or 2 models out of hundreds. If they REALLY wanted to make their barrels for the general public, why not just make an extra version of each barrel that would allow customers to shoot with a bit looser of a tolerance. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me... The side benefit is that they wouldn't have upset customers like me, telling people to pick a different company or skip the aftermarket barrel all together.

jfremder
September 15, 2012, 08:10 AM
That being said, the MO Bullet 125gn round bullet has a fatter ogive than normal for a typical 9mm so it might be a bit tight for your barrel.

The Hodgdon site lists a starting load for 125gn w/Universal for 3.8gn. Even with what you have now, seating to 1.055 instead of 1.125 with the starting load should be well within the safety margin. The powder with that load shouldn't be compressed at that point either.

As always, start low and work up.
I have to seat that bullet to 1.06 to get it to pass the plunk test and feed reliably in my CZ-75 or my XDM. I believe the ogive shape is the issue.

GLOOB
September 15, 2012, 08:20 AM
^Yes, several people have already stated this. MBC Small Ball has to be seated to 1.06" or less in many handguns.

OP can seat them to 1.08" in his LW barrel. There's no problem.

The number of people wrongly criticizing LW without having any prior experience with this bullet is astonishing.

bds
September 15, 2012, 08:52 AM
OP can seat them to 1.08" in his LW barrel. There's no problem.

The number of people wrongly criticizing LW without having any prior experience with this bullet is astonishing.
Missouri 125 gr RN (SmallBall) at 1.080"-1.100" OAL have worked well in my Lone Wolf barrels. Due to the shorter more rounder nose profile that increases the length of the bearing surface of the bullet base, more typical 1.125" OAL may not work in all pistols and the bearing surface will hit the start of rifling when chambered (see blue arrows).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=171705&stc=1&d=1347713991



BDS, The barrel should be able to shoot the vast majority of cast bullets, and not just 1 or 2 models out of hundreds. If they REALLY wanted to make their barrels for the general public, why not just make an extra version of each barrel that would allow customers to shoot with a bit looser of a tolerance. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me... The side benefit is that they wouldn't have upset customers like me, telling people to pick a different company or skip the aftermarket barrel all together.

carlspeed, I agree and if you read my past threads/posts, I expressed similar discontent in regards to the use of larger than jacketed diameter lead bullets. But there's more to the story.

This is what Lone Wolf advertises:
Ready to use, pre-fit drop in. No gunsmithing required.
Precision machined from heat treated 416R stainless forgings.
Oversized lock-up area produces greater shot-to-shot accuracy.
Tighter dimensions than the original.
Polished feed ramp and bore, diamond turned exterior
Maximum chamber support, improved feed ramp design.
Match grade broach cut rifling and target crown.
Ok to use lead, plated or jacketed bullets.
Lifetime warranty.

Lone Wolf will replace any of our barrels or barrel accessories which are found to have manufacturing or material defects. Customer modifications or the use of reloaded ammunition will void this warranty.
I bought Lone Wolf 40S&W and 40-9 conversion barrels because I wanted to shoot lead bullets and have fully supported chambers for 40S&W loads (BTW, 9mm chambers have comparable case base support to Glock/KKM barrels but have tighter chambers).

Although Lone Wolf barrels have tighter chambers than all the pistol barrels I have used, I guess Lone Wolf really wanted to provide tight, fully-supported chambers for their 40S&W barrels.

But not all the issues reloaders experienced are due to Lone Wolf barrels. Here's why. Although Glock barrel chambers are generous than most other factory barrel chambers, their 9mm chambers are on par with most other barrels and really don't bulge the brass even though the case base is not fully supported. Lone Wolf and even KKM barrels do not fully support the 9mm case base but I have not really seen bulged 9mm cases even with near max loads.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=141061&stc=1&d=1303671977

It's another story with 40S&W. Perhaps it's the larger case wall area that makes brass more malleable (compare longer length of paper clip that's easier to bend like 1/2" vs 2") but coupled with more generous Glock chambers, 40S&W cases seem to bulge more than 9mm. If you look at Glock chamber mouth, it is cut completely away from the case. While this aids in more reliable feeding, it aggravates case base bulging as there's no part of the chamber wall that will apply force against the case.

The picture above illustrates what a typical "guppy belly" bulged 40S&W cases look like. Although the visible bulging is about 2/3 way down the case, there's also slight bulging/stretching of the bottom portion of the case base. I use Lee carbide dies, and the 40S&W resizing die's carbide sizer ring will resize this bulge enough to make most of the bulged cases reusable. I can feel this bulge being resized as it takes more effort on the ram lever of my Pro 1000 press and the bottom of the die won't touch the top of the shell plate. Whenever I resize a bulged case, I will use a Lone Wolf barrel to see if it will fully chamber. If it won't, I will rotate the case 90 degrees and attempt to resize again. If the case fully chambers in Lone Wolf barrel, I will use the case. If it won't, I deem the case wall stretched too thin and will toss in the recycle bin.

Other reloaders I shoot with have expressed that some of their dies like Dillon won't fully reduce the base of the case and need to use Lee FCD "Bulge Buster" or Redding G-Rx "Glock-Rx" to push-through resize the bottom part of the case their resizing dies won't reach. I even know some reloaders who use Lee carbide resizing dies on their Dillon presses for this reason.

As to using larger sized lead bullets with Lone Wolf barrels, IME, most cases that have .010"-.012" nominal case wall thickness with .401" sized lead bullets will "snuggly" fully chamber. However, case wall thickness often vary and some are .013"+. Also, some commercial cast bullets come with so much excess bullet lube that they essentially add another .001" to the diameter of the bullet. How do I know? When I experienced finished rounds that failed to fully chamber, I measured the case wall thickness and used .010"-.012" thickness cases and wiped lube off the bullet surface - these then fully chambered. Well, I don't have the time or the desire to measure case wall thickness or wipe lube off the bullets. :rolleyes: So I enlarged/polished the 40S&W Lone Wolf chambers by ~.001" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8093783#post8093783) and now all of my finished rounds will fully chamber, regardless whether they have thicker case walls and/or extra lube on the bullet surface. Interesting thing is that I do not have this problem with Lone Wolf 9mm barrels.

Should Lone Wolf offer/enlarge the chamber of their 40S&W barrels? If they ask me, I would say yes. Should they add comments about using bulged Glock brass? It may help.

OK, back to OP.

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