Hammer fired DAO single stacks


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Regen
April 10, 2012, 01:24 PM
I'm look for a new carry pistol and prefer hammer fired over striker fired pistols. I'm also looking for a single stack magazine. I like the Walther PPS, but it is a striker fired pistol. I'm looking for a 9mm pistol.

Sig appears to make some (290 and 239 DAK).

Are there any other pistols like this?

Any pistols people would recommend?

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allaroundhunter
April 10, 2012, 01:32 PM
I have fired a P239 in DA/SA configuration. I really did like it, but it did have a good bit of heft for a single-stack 9mm.

The P290 is considerably smaller than the P239 and has a heavier trigger (about 9lbs vs. 7lbs). You can get roughly a full grip on the P239, whereas with the P290 I can only get a 2 finger grip.

If I was to pick one of those that you mentioned, I would take the P239.

bigfatdave
April 10, 2012, 01:34 PM
Kel Tec pf9
ruger lc9 (essentially a kel tec clone with some nonsense CA-required features thrown on)
Kel Tec p3at and p32

NAA guardian series

Para-Ord. LDA 1911 look-alikes

rcmodel
April 10, 2012, 01:36 PM
http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=10294981

http://www.amfirearmbroker.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29&catid=1&Itemid=9

rc

mlk18
April 10, 2012, 05:13 PM
The best hammer fired DAO single stack ever made is the S&W 3953. Which is the DAO version of the excellent 3913. The trigger is ultra smooth and fairly light, plus they are very slim. A large amount of police trade in 3953's have hit the market recently so they are easy to find in the <$400 range.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Smith%20And%20Wesson%20Model%203953.jpg

JohnBT
April 10, 2012, 05:24 PM
Or for something smaller, a Rohrbaugh R9.

2wheels
April 10, 2012, 05:53 PM
My old man carries a P239 (though his is DA/SA), excellent handgun for sure. Another +1 to S&Ws offerings if you can find one, which you should be able to with a little luck.

dbp
April 10, 2012, 06:25 PM
Why preference of hammer over striker? Fairly new to autos so forgive my ignorance.

RBid
April 10, 2012, 06:47 PM
Why preference of hammer over striker? Fairly new to autos so forgive my ignorance.
I, and some others, prefer hammer fired so that you can thumb the hammer while you holster the gun. Subcompact, hammer fired guns also tend to have DAO (double action only) triggers, which make accidental discharge less likely.

9mmepiphany
April 10, 2012, 06:54 PM
Something you can do with a hammer fired pistol is place your thumb on the hammer as you re-holster. If your finger, or anything else (like a safety strap or shirt tail), enters the trigger guard while holstering, you'll feel the movement as the trigger is pressed to the rear.

dbp
April 10, 2012, 07:03 PM
OK - makes sense. So it is basically a safety issue. I didn't know if there were differences in operation that made one more desirable than the other.

Thanks

bob kk
April 10, 2012, 07:48 PM
I have a Sig 239 and it's a good shooter. Don't like it for carry because it's a little wide. Think a slim 1911 has spoiled me.

Goomba
April 10, 2012, 10:01 PM
I, and some others, prefer hammer fired so that you can thumb the hammer while you holster the gun

That's what I do with that big striker indicator on the PPS.... I still say go with a PPS :P

The Lone Haranguer
April 10, 2012, 10:15 PM
Smith & Wesson made large numbers of hammer-fired DAOs in their Third Generation line, in 9mm, .40 or .45, single or double stack. These are no longer made, but can be found used. Note: they are a precocked hammer system and do not allow "second strike" on a dud.

Walt Sherrill
April 11, 2012, 11:01 AM
I, and some others, prefer hammer fired so that you can thumb the hammer while you holster the gun. Subcompact, hammer fired guns also tend to have DAO (double action only) triggers, which make accidental discharge less likely.

Many of the hammer-fired DAO guns do not have hammers which can be thumbed back -- nor a cocking notch that would let you manually cock the hammer. (Most of the S&W version have bobbed hammers, for example.)

But, with a DAO gun, there's no need ever thumb the hammer... and you never need to decock, either. <grin>

I've had a number of DAO guns, and eventually got rid of all of them. (That included a Sphinx DAO which had a marvelous trigger.) Just don't like that trigger mechanism...

The SIG DAK trigger seems to offer a nice compromise -- the only one of those that I owned had a terrible trigger, but I've shot others that were very nice. (Mine, a 239 wasn't -- and I didn't like the gun enough to bother with getting the trigger smoothed.)

9mmepiphany
April 11, 2012, 03:06 PM
I, and some others, prefer hammer fired so that you can thumb the hammer while you holster the gun. Subcompact, hammer fired guns also tend to have DAO (double action only) triggers, which make accidental discharge less likely. Many of the hammer-fired DAO guns do not have hammers which can be thumbed back -- nor a cocking notch that would let you manually cock the hammer. (Most of the S&W version have bobbed hammers, for example.)

But, with a DAO gun, there's no need ever thumb the hammer... and you never need to decock, either. <grin>
You're confusing the terms "thumb the hammer" and "thumb back" (the hammer). The second term was originally phrased as thumbing the hammer back.

The two terms, in the quotes, have completely opposite meanings. One means to stabilize the hammer from moving, while the other means to manually move the hammer

Walt Sherrill
April 11, 2012, 04:20 PM
You're right -- I confused the terms.

That's probably because I had never seen or heard the term THUMB THE HAMMER used in the manner you describe -- as a safety precaution to avoid hammer movement while holstering.

Why would you do that?

Unless your finger is in the trigger guard, it seems a unnecessary safety precaution, as the hammer can only COME back with a trigger press.

allaroundhunter
April 11, 2012, 04:27 PM
Why would you do that?

Unless your finger is in the trigger guard, it seems a unnecessary safety precaution, as the hammer can only COME back with a trigger press.

I will never have a problem with anyone taking extra safety precautions when it comes to something that is very capable of causing a fatal injury.

Also, if you use a holster with a retention strap it could get caught in the trigger guard as well.

Walt Sherrill
April 11, 2012, 04:37 PM
You could also turn in a circle three times before holstering, but that doesn't mean that doing so is actually a "safety" precaution or will actually make the process more safe.

Your examples almost far-fetched: if the trigger is so light that a retention strap could cause a problem, then 1) THE STRAP ITSELF is a safety issue, 2) the trigger is just too light, or 3) the shooter isn't paying attention. A much better safety precaution would be to just be sure the strap (and holster) is clear before holstering the gun.

I've been through a few courses, over the years, and have not seen this particular "hammer thumbing" method presented as a proper gun handling technique. Like you, I'm not against safety precautions, but I want to be sure they're actually doing something. It's not clear, to me, that this one is doing something that isn't better done in a different way.


.

allaroundhunter
April 11, 2012, 04:43 PM
Walt, do accidents happen?


Can a foreign object get inside of a trigger guard while holstering?
If so, will turning in circles 3 times alert you to the fact that something bad is about to happen? Will thumbing the hammer to give you a physical sense that the trigger is being manipulated alert you?

No, thumbing the hammer is not a substitute for visually checking that there is nothing foreign in the trigger guard, but it is not a bad practice even when you can visually check that it seems safe.

RBid
April 11, 2012, 05:11 PM
Posting again to say that I will continue to thumb the hammer of my PF-9 (or the striker indicator of a PPS-- good point!) when I holster my weapon. I will do this despite already visually checking for obstructions, and maintaining trigger finger discipline.

I also safety check my weapons after dry-firing with snap caps, cleaning, or anything else that ever puts them in my hand.


Judge or mock as you see fit. I won't be able to hear it over the deafening silence of my weapon never accidentally discharging.

9mmepiphany
April 11, 2012, 05:16 PM
Why would you do that?
1. The most obvious is when a shooter forgets to take their finger off the trigger. The same shooter missed his holster when holstering and dropped his gun...it is an inherent danger associated with muffin top body builds and requires awareness more than anything else.

2. Then there is the old thumb break holsters which naturally curl across the mouth of the holster.

3, Then there is the shirt/coat/cover garment tail that finds it's way into the holster mouth because of how they were cleared/grabbed on the draw.

4. A less obvious reason is that it give you tactile confirmation that you have de-cocked your pistol...where applicable

I've seen all these at classes and it really is more the result of operating under stress/pressure to perform than ignorance or carelessness...that is why we teach it. I found it interesting that they taught it at Gunsite for a different reason...since the hammer is already back on a Condition 1 1911. They teach it to confirm that you aren't still holding your thumb safety down (off position)

It is also common in shooting classes...and certainly in fighting classes...to teach a student to holster without looking at the holster. This is a critical skill, before attending a nightfire course

Walt Sherrill
April 11, 2012, 05:23 PM
Do accidents happen? Sure.

But, honestly, I've never heard of a foreign object in the holster causing a problem with anything but a striker-fired weapon. That was the reason for my skepticism.

I've also never encountered or read about an accidental discharge caused by a retention strap with any gun -- striker-fired or hammer-fired. That's not to say they can't happen... (I guess you guys will just say, "you need to read more or ask around.")

For some guns, just using the safety/safeties seems the best solution. Certainly with guns carried cocked and locked, or 1911s.

9mmepiphany
April 11, 2012, 05:29 PM
I've also never encountered or read about an accidental discharge caused by a retention strap with any gun -- striker-fired or hammer-fired. That's not to say they can't happen...
In chronological order:
S&W M-15
Colt 1911
Glock 17
Beretta 92
Glock 19
SIG 226

...at least the reason given in the report was "safety strap in trigger guard"

Interesting side note. When LAPD switch their issued sidearm from the S&W revolver to the Beretta 92, they had Don Hume supply holsters with a special addition to the thumb break safety strap. It was a piece of leather that pushed off the slide mounted thumb safety/de-cocker as the strap was snapped in place. That way the pistol could be holstered with the safety applied, but would not be left on in the holster

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