10mm - The most versatile auto pistol cartridge in existence?


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Hikester
April 10, 2012, 10:11 PM
I can't understand why this cartridge isn't more popular.

If you want light and fast, there are 125 grain loadings @ 1,600 FPS.

If you want heavy penetration, there are 200 grain loadings @ 1,200 FPS.

If you want heavy with low recoil, there are reduced power 180 grain loadings at 950 FPS.

If you want middle of the road performance, there are 165 grain loadings @ 1,400 FPS.

All of these can be fired from the same gun! And unlike running a different caliber at hot speeds the 10mm guns are designed for it out of the box.

People are going to complain about price. Well, that's partly due to not having a lot of users!

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ZeSpectre
April 10, 2012, 10:15 PM
Catch 22 situation.
There aren't a lot of "factory" loads out there because not a lot of people seem interested.
Not a lot of people are interested because they don't know what can be done with it.

tyeo098
April 10, 2012, 10:18 PM
Plus they don't make a 10mm carbine!

Only a 40 Short&Weak one.

PedalBiker
April 10, 2012, 10:19 PM
I think it's the length of the cartridge holding it back. The 10mm short is not nearly so potent, but fits into most popular size envelopes better.

Something Ruger P345 sized might go over well, but Glock has one about that size.

fireman 9731
April 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
The Bren-Ten pistol that it was built around was beat to pieces by the recoil. That probably left a bad taste in consumers mouths and it just never really took off.

Recoil is a little snappy in most factory loads and it has been greatly over shadowed by its little brother, the 40S&W.

There is certainly nothing wrong with the round. There are lots of great rounds out there that just aren't very popular.

Sam Cade
April 10, 2012, 10:26 PM
Plus they don't make a 10mm carbine!
Sure they do.

http://olyarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&category_id=76&product_id=101&Itemid=37&vmcchk=1&Itemid=37

http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.php

Hikester
April 10, 2012, 10:27 PM
Somehow the Glock survives. I think the Bren pistol issues were related to design/manufacturing/materials rather than the 10mm cartridge. If a plastic Glock can take it, a metal gun can too, granted it's not a turd.

R.W.Dale
April 10, 2012, 10:28 PM
Two reasons

SIZE

And what EXACTLY does 10mm do that 45acp wont? Because with the right loads the 100+ year old ACP will kill anything on foot or hoof that 10mm will.

Hikester
April 10, 2012, 10:31 PM
Two reasons

SIZE

And what EXACTLY does 10mm do that 45acp wont? Because with the right loads the 100+ year old ACP will kill anything on foot or hoof that 10mm will.

You complain about size and then compare it to .45 ACP? The Glock 20 holds 15+1 in a standard size pistol.

.45 Super is in the ballpark, but .45 ACP is not in terms of speed.

R.W.Dale
April 10, 2012, 10:46 PM
You complain about size and then compare it to .45 ACP? The Glock 20 holds 15+1 in a standard size pistol.

.45 Super is in the ballpark, but .45 ACP is not in terms of speed.
I'm not complaining about anything. I currently own neither cartridge and have no desire to. But if you want to discuss why as per your OP it would behoove you to tone down the snark.



Both pistols are huge. But ACP guns are on an order of magnitude more common. My point is that the size of the platform alone puts 10mm only in contention for folks who would be in the market for 45 sized platforms. That already narrows its appeal to a very narrow focus. FWIW I had a g20 and I assure you there's nothing "standard sized" about one.

Not speed, not everyone is a ballistics nerd. I'm talking about bullets going into things and how things are affected by this. What does 10mm do different? The answer is absolutely NOTHING with the possible exception of the very edges of capabilities for hunting.

Barring the 40s&w wich IMO is a fluke that wont be repeated. In terms of mainline defensive/fighting handgun calibers its a 45acp, 9mm P, 38/357 world all of which have been around for the better part of or more than a century. Anything else is a very very slim slice of this pie and will stay that way.

orionengnr
April 10, 2012, 10:57 PM
I, too, am a 10mm fan. But I am also a fan of the .41 Mag and the .45LC. Both great cartridges, both very versatile, neither very popular.

You can lead a horse to water...

Such is life--I'm okay with all of that. I will keep handloading and keep shooting these cartridges.

Justin Holder
April 10, 2012, 11:12 PM
The three main complaints I continually hear about the 10mm are:

#1 It's too expensive.

^It can be reloaded for same/cheaper than .45acp

#2 It's too large.

^It fits in the same sized guns as .45acp

#3 It's has too much recoil.

^It recoils the same/less than .45acp+P


On a side note, I have noticed that a lot of handgunners are very closed minded when it comes to handgun cartridges. If it isn't a 9mm, .45acp, .357mag or .44mag, they don't want anything to do with it.

It doesn't matter to them that the .357 sig wipes the floor with 9mm, or that the 10mm can do everything the .45acp can do and more, or that the .41 mag is better at killing stuff than the .357 mag, or that the modern .45 colt surpasses the .44mag in power and performance.

The 10mm is just one of those high performance cartridges that will never become a mainstay with the general handguning public. They don't know what they are missing.

Hikester
April 10, 2012, 11:24 PM
I'm not complaining about anything. I currently own neither cartridge and have no desire to. But if you want to discuss why as per your OP it would behoove you to tone down the snark.

I find this statement downright hilarious. Someone doesn't agree with you and instantly you take offense. No one else here is having a problem.

Don't go away mad.

R.W.Dale
April 10, 2012, 11:28 PM
I find this statement downright hilarious. Someone doesn't agree with you and instantly you take offense. No one else here is having a problem.

Don't go away mad.

Oh no! Accusing someone answering your question as a complainer isn't snarky in the slightest. Have fun with your little thread while it lasts. I can already see the lockstick looming

KyJim
April 10, 2012, 11:45 PM
I'm testing the 10mm waters. I'm in the process of getting a 10mm 1911 and ordered some ammo today, all with 180 gr. bullets with velocities at 1100 and 1300 fps. It should be a flat shooting round, especially at the higher velocities. The 10mm was the brainchild of Jeff Cooper so there's plenty of room for having both .45 acp and 10mm.

DesertFox
April 11, 2012, 12:49 AM
Couple of 10mm around here... Most versatile? Perhaps. Not the only good choice though. Best choice is whatever the individual shooter performs best with. Real 10mm loads can be a bit much for some folks.

The G20 and G29 seem to really suck up the recoil. The Delta Elite shoots like a 1911 - duh!:cool: Double Eagles are highly under-rated. The S&W 1xx6 series are highly acclaimed, shooting nice due to their weight. S&W 610 or 310 for the wheelgun crowd, toss a Ruger Buckeye Blackhawk in there if you're a cowboy... Don't forget Witness 10s but I'd stick with metal ones. WY Arms Parker? Uh, not on my buy list... Bren? Not on the shoot list.

And the mother-of-all 10mm carbine has gone unmentioned - HK MP5-10, which has so far eluded capture on my part.:fire:

10mm out of a carbine show it's teeth in a similar fashion to .357 or .44 Mag do according to the chrony.

Singing the accolades of 10mm is something I do almost daily as I reload away!:)

Lothar
April 11, 2012, 07:39 AM
And what EXACTLY does 10mm do that 45acp wont?

In a word, it penetrates. Far more than .45 ACP does, at least in the full-house loads. Check out these ballistic gelatin results, showing that the best 10mm rounds tested (DoubleTap 200gr) penetrated 19.5 inches, compared with 15.25" for .45ACP. And DoubleTap 200gr isn't even close to being the most powerful 10mm cartridge available. A Buffalo Bore 220gr @1200fps would likely penetrate quite a bit farther.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

If I was carrying in the woods for protection against large animals (say, anything smaller than a grizzly bear), I'd much rather have a 10mm on my hip than a .45ACP.

For defense against 2-legged threats, where overpenetration might be a concern, there are plenty of hollow points in lesser loadings that would get the job done very nicely, but still provide good penetration through clothing or light barriers.

csa77
April 11, 2012, 08:12 AM
most versatile cartridge for a pistol? no. 460 rowland, 357mag ,44mag and 50 AE are superior. all of them can be loaded into pistols.

iv never seen 10mm at any of the walmarts in my area, they commonly carry 357 and 44 mag.

greenlion
April 11, 2012, 08:31 AM
Can't really be all that versatile if you can only buy two guns that can chamber it...

loadedround
April 11, 2012, 08:52 AM
I too am a fan of the 10mm and at present own two of them. One is my go to pistol and is an older Colt Delta Elite purchased in the mid 80's that now has over 6K rounds through it w/o a problem outside of changing recoil springs every 1k rounds. My other 10MM is a new SS Colt Delta Elite that I have not fired yet. I'm fond of the "1911" style frame and the only semi-auto I'd consider for wood's carry would be the 10MM in a solid steel framed pistol. JMHO!

Jon Coppenbarger
April 11, 2012, 08:52 AM
I have only shot the glock model 29 and the delta elite. the glock really kicked but I liked it. A friend was shooting his 10mm when I was shooting my glock model 30 . the colt was a nice pistol and really liked the one I owned back in like 1990 so much I bought another one last year. I have not fired it yet but it was made back in the 90's.

but I have only fied one round out of a gun since I stepped off of the line at camp peery last august and that was to shoot a deer last oct.

Been doing alot of yardwork this spring but really thinking about getting some rounds down range.

loneviking
April 11, 2012, 08:53 AM
Have you ever shot one? I saw a Glock being fired at the range one day. The recoil was stout and the sucker was loud enough that I had to put on both foam plugs and a muff. No thanks. Out of a carbine, maybe, but I'm in no hurry to indulge. The Mod. 19 .357 I was shooting made less noise and recoil than that Glock. :eek:

Lothar
April 11, 2012, 09:07 AM
Can't really be all that versatile if you can only buy two guns that can chamber it...

If that's what you've been told, you've been misinformed.

MachIVshooter
April 11, 2012, 11:37 AM
And what EXACTLY does 10mm do that 45acp wont?

Shoots flatter

Penetrates deeper

Allows for more ammunition in the magazine

In a nutshell, it does everything better. Why it didn't catch on bigger than it did doesn't really make any sense when one considers the number of .45 ACP pistols being sold (out with the frame size argument) and the fact that major commercial ammunition makers load it down to .40 S&W/.45 ACP power levels (out with the recoil argument). But, not every good idea gets traction in the real world, and doubly so in the gun world. Many a cartridge has paled in popularity compared to it's inferior contemporaries for reasons no one can truly quantify.

That said, it's more popular today, 30 years after it's release, than ever before. We have over a dozen handguns chambering it and several small ammo makers loading real 10mm ammo.

Robbins290
April 11, 2012, 01:35 PM
"40 short and weak" now thats funny! ! ! !

45_auto
April 11, 2012, 01:55 PM
I can't understand why this cartridge isn't more popular.

Pretty simple - controllability.

Same reason very few law enforcement carried .44 Magnums back in the days of the revolver. The loss of controllability isn't worth the minimal gain in power. To get the recoil that most people can effectively control, you have to drop the power down to .40 S&W level. At that point, you might as well go with a smaller frame size with the same capacity.

For 2-legged predators (vast law enforcement market) it's still a pistol cartridge, nobody is going to notice the difference between being shot with a 9mm, 10mm, .45ACP, .357 or .44 Mag, no matter what internet hoopla you read.

SatCong
April 11, 2012, 02:09 PM
Compared to full house 10mm it is.

MachIVshooter
April 11, 2012, 02:16 PM
At that point, you might as well go with a smaller frame size with the same capacity.

Agreed, yet the .45 GAP that was born of the same concept failed miserably.

Sometimes there's just not much rhyme or reason.

On that note, marketing has a lot to do with it. The 10mm had only one platform when it was introduced, and that platform was plagued with problems, from durability of the guns themselves to shipping without magazines. By the time Colt and S&W picked it up, it was already in trouble. The .40 S&W, OTOH, had numerous firearms chambered for it within a year of it's debut, and in the era of the wondernines, the .40 made quite a splash offering much more performance with only a small decrease in capacity. In contrast, 10mm guns of the day only offered a 1 round increase over .45 ACP. It wasn't until the Glock 20 and Tanfoglio pistols that the 10mm platform offered a notable increase in capacity.

What the future holds for the 10mm remains a mystery. Though far from being as mainstream as 9/.40/.45, it has picked up a pretty decent following in recent years. I doubt we'll ever see them filling cop's holsters or one the battlefield, but in the private sector, they've become somewhat common. It seems to be a matter of people discovering it more than anything.

WolfTrap
April 12, 2012, 01:03 PM
LOL
Dude...it's metrics? Anything with a mm just doesn't get by too many folks. Maybe with Non-Baby Boomers it would have caught on, but...my generation? The New generation have caught on to metrics, but the older crowd just didn't buy into the 40mm? Hence the 40 S&W just sounded good to the Good Old Boys! Myself... 38 supers and 45 ACP's?

Lothar
April 12, 2012, 01:18 PM
Dude...it's metrics? Anything with a mm just doesn't get by too many folks. Maybe with Non-Baby Boomers it would have caught on, but...my generation? The New generation have caught on to metrics, but the older crowd just didn't buy into the 40mm? Hence the 40 S&W just sounded good to the Good Old Boys! Myself... 38 supers and 45 ACP's?

I dunno... I think anybody who has watched a Hollywood action movie is familiar with the term "9mm" and have probably heard the time countless times more than ".40S&W." 10mm probably sounds even better to the layman, though few people realize just how much more powerful it is.

I'm chuckling to myself right now thinking of Schwartzenegger in the gun shop in the original Terminator movie, asking for an Uzi 9mm, right after he asks for the phased plasma rifle in the 30-watt range. Had he wanted some real power, he would have asked for a 10mm.

Elkins45
April 12, 2012, 01:22 PM
The New generation have caught on to metrics, but the older crowd just didn't buy into the 40mm?

I wanted to carry my 40mm, but carrying a nearly two inch diameter barrel IWB led to too many funny looks :D

Seriously, a lot of factors conspired to relegate the 10mm to an enthuseast's round, but frame size and recoil were probably the biggest two...and not coincidentally were two of the biggest factors in the 40 S&W's success.

MCgunner
April 12, 2012, 01:26 PM
For versatility, I pick a medium frame .357 magnum revolver. My auto pistols have niches. They're not for versatility. Mostly they're for self defense and concealed carry 'cept for the .22s, of course.

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 01:27 PM
I have been working on my T-Shirt

http://www.spreadshirt.com/create-your-own-t-shirt-C59/product/101026119/view/2/sb/f

Lothar
April 12, 2012, 01:31 PM
Cool t-shirt. Somebody should make one of this popular drawing that I've seen on various forums:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1614/cartridgejokezd9.jpg

MCgunner
April 12, 2012, 01:32 PM
Dude...it's metrics? Anything with a mm just doesn't get by too many folks. Maybe with Non-Baby Boomers it would have caught on, but...my generation? The New generation have caught on to metrics,

Retired chemical analyst with metric motorcycles that drives a Toyota. I am not metric averse. The one metric calculation I don't use is land area. I'm used to acres, not hectares. LOL Linear or volume I kinda prefer metric to the confusing ASI system. I'd probably prefer hectares to acres if I was used to it.

I like my .355 Lugers, too. :D 9mm doesn't seem to confuse anyone, why should 10?

intercooler
April 12, 2012, 01:33 PM
If I had the JPEG I could put that on the front. Shirt would be complete then!

Brockak47
April 12, 2012, 01:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ClEZPs8os - I watched this a few days ago, found it while perusing videos.

I've never shot a 10mm, but it sounds to be a good caliber if you reload, but sadly I don't yet. Then again in a defense situation (2 leg), why wouldn't 2 quick double tap shots of 9mm be fine as opposed to the 10mm. Since the recoil makes it look hard for quick follow up shots, but I guess this is more on the versatility of the load so you can load it down i suppose.

disclaimer- I do not own or shot either 9mm or 10mm caliber, so I can't fancy one over the other

Lothar
April 12, 2012, 02:13 PM
in a defense situation (2 leg), why wouldn't 2 quick double tap shots of 9mm be fine as opposed to the 10mm. Since the recoil makes it look hard for quick follow up shots, but I guess this is more on the versatility of the load so you can load it down i suppose.

That's a perfectly reasonable scenario to consider. I guess the way I think about it is that I can easily envision a situation where only the first shot I fire from my gun is really going to count. That shot would do a lot more damage if it came out of a 10mm.

That being said though, the gun that I carry on the street for self-defense is always a 9mm. The 10mm is just for woods carry for me.

2zulu1
April 12, 2012, 02:22 PM
In a word, it penetrates. Far more than .45 ACP does, at least in the full-house loads. Check out these ballistic gelatin results, showing that the best 10mm rounds tested (DoubleTap 200gr) penetrated 19.5 inches, compared with 15.25" for .45ACP. And DoubleTap 200gr isn't even close to being the most powerful 10mm cartridge available. A Buffalo Bore 220gr @1200fps would likely penetrate quite a bit farther.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

If I was carrying in the woods for protection against large animals (say, anything smaller than a grizzly bear), I'd much rather have a 10mm on my hip than a .45ACP.

For defense against 2-legged threats, where overpenetration might be a concern, there are plenty of hollow points in lesser loadings that would get the job done very nicely, but still provide good penetration through clothing or light barriers.
Comparing XTPs to Gold Dots, that's a real apples to apples comparison. Comparing equal sectional densities 10/180gr Gold Dot to the much slower 45/230gr Gold Dot and we see equal expansion/ penetration, using data supplied by you.

In handgun platforms the reason the 45auto runs heads up with personal defense 10mm offerings is due to the JHP's momentum, not its kinetic energy.

I have a G20 and G20 SF along with 6" KKM barrel and after shooting thousands of handloads I've learned that JHPs designed for 40 velocities can and do come apart at full 10mm velocities. I see the 10mm as an excellent trail gun and I carry 200gr WFNGCs when carrying the 10mm on the trail and/or in thick brush areas.

MCgunner
April 12, 2012, 03:33 PM
I don't see the 10 as a defensive weapon, certainly CAN be, but as the OP says, it's a versatile auto loader caliber. I can't disagree with that, can hunt with it anything one can hunt with a .357 assuming the platform is accurate enough. It'd be superior to my .357 revolver for carry in Big Bend NP where one could need a long range concealable gun and it has the firepower over the revolver if you stumbled into a drug mule team or something. It'd be effective on any fanged animal up to black bear, not that I ever really worry about such things. I certainly could find a place for one and I do handload. BUT, my .357s work for me just fine. Getting into 10mm for reloading could be pricey for the brass alone and I don't like losing expensive brass. It's easier to keep up with .357 brass. My auto chuckers are single purpose carry pieces as stated before.

SatCong
April 12, 2012, 04:04 PM
I do have 357,44mag,45acp and 10mm.I carry every day,10mm or 45.With in reason I don't worry about price as long it works. My life and the life of my love ones means more.A 10mm shoots real flat compared to a 45. Compared to 9mm and 357, it's a bigger hole with more weight.Yes,I do reload for my weapons,but carry ammo I buy.After saying this' I would say just carry what you handle the best.But please, practice and practice right.:cool:

MCgunner
April 12, 2012, 04:09 PM
They don't make pockets big enough for a 10. I carry a 9. :D

sargents1
April 12, 2012, 04:13 PM
I don't see the 10 as a defensive weapon, certainly CAN be, but as the OP says, it's a versatile auto loader caliber. I can't disagree with that, can hunt with it anything one can hunt with a .357 assuming the platform is accurate enough. It'd be superior to my .357 revolver for carry in Big Bend NP where one could need a long range concealable gun and it has the firepower over the revolver if you stumbled into a drug mule team or something. It'd be effective on any fanged animal up to black bear, not that I ever really worry about such things. I certainly could find a place for one and I do handload. BUT, my .357s work for me just fine. Getting into 10mm for reloading could be pricey for the brass alone and I don't like losing expensive brass. It's easier to keep up with .357 brass. My auto chuckers are single purpose carry pieces as stated before.

This is a pretty good post. The only thing I would like to point out is that 10mm brass is not really much more expensive than .40 brass. Last time I bought brass it was about 81$ for 500pcs of .40S&W and about 85$/500pcs for 10mm. Primers, bullets and powder are all pretty much the same.

But, chasing down your 10mm brass is a chore because it goes everywhere...and it's just not an issue with a .357 revolver. Still, I'm keeping my 10mm, its just too good to give up.

SatCong
April 12, 2012, 05:21 PM
I carry inside wasit-ban, and yes it's 5'' barrel.

SatCong
April 12, 2012, 07:01 PM
http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id7.html
10mm Auto Velocity Comparison Chart #1

Bren Ten SFL
S&W 1086
S&W 1076
Glock 20
Bren Ten SM
Bren Ten MP
S&W 1006

4" 4.25" 4.25" 4.6" 5" 5" 5"
Nosler 135gn JHP
(handload) n/a n/a "Safe
Queen" n/a 1,451fps n/a 1,449fps
Hornady 155gn XTP/HP
(handload) n/a n/a "Safe
Queen" n/a 1,266fps n/a 1,279fps
Lyman 180gn LTC
(handload) n/a n/a "Safe
Queen" n/a 1,021fps n/a 1,014fps
Hornady 180gn XTP/HP
(handload) n/a n/a "Safe
Queen" n/a 1,167fps n/a 1,183fps
WCB 200gn PTC
(handload) n/a n/a "Safe
Queen" n/a n/a n/a n/a


10mm Auto Velocity Comparison Chart #2

Colt Delta GC
Para P16 Conv.
>Ruger Buckeye
S&W 610 CH
iAi Javelina
T/C Contender
Oly CAR/97

5" 5" 6.5" 6.5" 7" 10" 16"
Nosler 135gn JHP
(handload) 1,489fps n/a n/a 1,570fps n/a 1,733fps 1,861fps
Hornady 155gn XTP/HP
(handload) 1,346fps n/a n/a 1,369fps n/a 1,448fps 1,594fps
Lyman 180gn LTC
(handload) 1,038fps n/a n/a 1,067fps n/a 1,143fps 1,203fps
Hornady 180gn XTP/HP
(handload) 1,235fps n/a n/a 1,249fps n/a 1,298fps 1,437fps
WCB 200gn PTC
(handload) n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

harrygunner
April 12, 2012, 07:20 PM
But, it would be nice if others came to appreciate what it is about.

Richard Heine was asked what he thought of a 10mm 1911. His answer was "Mine is the one gun I would never get rid of."

Dr. Gary Roberts from http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25439&page=2

A well designed, full power, 200 gr 10 mm generally offers superior terminal effects compared with .40 S&W, as the 10 mm permanent crush cavity is larger and the temporary cavity effects are getting large enough to begin to be significant; ...

A quote from a less well known, but apparently intelligent guy ;) 'Airborne Falcon' said "10 mm is, without a doubt, the greatest semi-auto pistol cartridge ever designed. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5032460&postcount=29

MCgunner
April 12, 2012, 08:22 PM
This is a pretty good post. The only thing I would like to point out is that 10mm brass is not really much more expensive than .40 brass. Last time I bought brass it was about 81$ for 500pcs of .40S&W and about 85$/500pcs for 10mm. Primers, bullets and powder are all pretty much the same.

Yeah, but....:D

See, deal is, I have TONS of .40 and don't have a gun to shoot it in, but pick it up when I'm scrounging 9 and .45 at the range. It's everywhere because all the cops qualify and shoot on our range and they all carry .40s. Brass gets left for anyone who wants it. 10mm is NOT a round I find ANY of on the ground out there. Lots of 9 and .45 and I have both. CCW qualification is shot out there, too. I do find SOME .380, but 9 and .45 and especially .40 I can load a truck with, usually. :D

oso
April 12, 2012, 08:53 PM
i love the 10 mm, ballistically it is equivalant to .41 mag. but coming out of an auto loader. since i reload the same die set as for .40 s&w and cost is the same once you have the brass. it is my favorite carry gun when in the woods, but for self defense i will stick to .45 acp as i would worry about over penetration. yes you could use lighter loads,but then you are defeating the purpose might as well carry .40 s&w. as far as not catching on, i think it is cost and lack of variaty of factory loads.

MCgunner
April 12, 2012, 09:02 PM
i love the 10 mm, ballistically it is equivalant to .41 mag. but coming out of an auto loader.

Nope, it is the twin of my .357 Blackhawk, but a .41 can push up over 1000 ft lbs from a 6" barrel. I get about 785 ft lbs, just over 1400 fps, from a 6.5" Blackhawk and a 180 grain Hornady XTP. If you don't believe me, check out Buffalo Bore's .357 factory ballistics.

SatCong
April 12, 2012, 10:38 PM
Don't forget the 10mm Mag.
TAFFIN TESTS: THE 10MM MAGNUM

...JOHN TAFFIN

LOADS FOR THE 10MM MAGNUM

BULLET: HORNADY 200 XTP

LOAD MV GROUP CASE EXPANSION*

16.0 GR. AA#9 1379 1" .425"

17.0 GR. AA#9 1452 2" ES=20 .425"

18.0 GR. AA#9 1477 2 5/8" .4255"

20.0 GR. H110 1507 1" .4245"

21.0 GR. H110 1597 3 1/4" ES=26 .425"

20.0 GR. WW296 1561 3" .425"

21.0 GR. WW296 1621 2" .426"

16.0 GR. #2400 1421 3 1/8" .425"

17.0 GR. #2400 1503 2 1/4" ES=25 .4255"

18.0 GR. #2400 1569 5/8" .4255"

12.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1391 2 1/4" .425"

13.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1461 2 1/8" ES=28 .4255"

14.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1529 3" .426"

DIAMETER OF UNFIRED BRASS ABOVE WEB IS .421"

psyshack
April 12, 2012, 10:38 PM
The 10mm is a fantastic round. And I am a proud owner of a G20 with a LWD 5.15" barrel and 3.5 lb connector. It shoots great and allows me to explore loads well over book. :)

As for where it slots ballistics wise. The 10mm slots right between the .357 and .41 mags. If you can find small primer brass one can go .41 mag numbers.

People do want pistols that will fire the big 10. When at the last Tulsa Gun Show I was looking for a deal on a NIB G29. I did not find one. And one vendor that only had Glocks and XD's on the table said a Glock 10mm was the most asked for caliber and he had none to sell. And took a few minuets of his time to ask me what I liked about the round. The man was generally interested in the swell of popularity he's seen in the 10mm concerning Glock.

As for 10mm and versatility. Naw,,, unless your uploading your ammo. :)

MCgunner
April 12, 2012, 10:45 PM
Buffalo Bore, known for riding the ragged edge with heavy loads, loads 10mm to just over 700 ft lbs in their "heavy 10mm" loadings. The above loads I think I'd shy way from without MUCH further research. :eek: I have not looked into it for handloading as I simply ain't interested in 10mm, but most agree it's equivalent to .357 magnum from 6" barrels.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=24

MachIVshooter
April 12, 2012, 10:46 PM
Don't forget the 10mm Mag.

For which there was one gun made in very limited quantities. Unfortunate.

I'm still plannning to modify a Tanfoglio to accept it, since I bought a bunch of Starline 10mm mag brass. Modding the frame, slide and mag is easy-finding a barrel, not so easy.

WaywardSon
April 12, 2012, 11:09 PM
Don't know if the 10mm is "the" most versatile auto pistol cartridge out there, but I think it's in the running. Factory ammo is available at any decent gun shop in the three most common bullet weights, and it certainly offers a lot of power. My Glock 20 is comfortable to shoot even with heavy loads, recoil being no worse than my Sig P220 in .45 acp. I love the dang thing.

The drop in Lone Wolf barrel in .357 Sig is just icing on the cake. Another nice and under-appreciated caliber.

SatCong
April 12, 2012, 11:20 PM
I under-stand that S&W 610 change-over were good to go, for 10mm,mag.

BBDartCA
April 12, 2012, 11:30 PM
"Can't understand why its not more popular?" Pretty simple to me - price & availability.

MachIVshooter
April 13, 2012, 12:46 AM
I under-stand that S&W 610 change-over were good to go, for 10mm,mag.

Defeats the purpose for me. If I want a potent wheelgun, I'll grab my 629.

SatCong
April 13, 2012, 01:03 AM
I would agree,I have both.The one I don't shoot is my S&W-586.

PabloJ
April 13, 2012, 01:18 AM
I can't understand why this cartridge isn't more popular.

If you want light and fast, there are 125 grain loadings @ 1,600 FPS.

If you want heavy penetration, there are 200 grain loadings @ 1,200 FPS.

If you want heavy with low recoil, there are reduced power 180 grain loadings at 950 FPS.

If you want middle of the road performance, there are 165 grain loadings @ 1,400 FPS.

All of these can be fired from the same gun! And unlike running a different caliber at hot speeds the 10mm guns are designed for it out of the box.

People are going to complain about price. Well, that's partly due to not having a lot of users!

To answer original question in S&W revolver YES in semi-auto NO.

Hikester
April 13, 2012, 02:19 PM
Not an overly convincing answer there, Pablo. :)

MachIVshooter
April 13, 2012, 02:56 PM
To answer original question in S&W revolver YES in semi-auto NO.

Why would you think that? I can run any of those loads, and some even hotter, in any of my five 10mm autoloaders without a problem. They all function fine with the anemic CCI blazer ammo as well as my 180 gr./1,400 FPS handloads, and everything in between.

browningguy
April 13, 2012, 05:16 PM
It's a big cartridge with a big recoil. As far as I'm concerned it's use is limited to hunting. It really shines in the Witness Hunter model with 6" barrel.

For me it's one of the least versatile cartridges, but everyone gets their own opinion.

Peter M. Eick
April 13, 2012, 07:33 PM
I look on the 10 as easy to reload and very versatile. It can be most things to most people but at the end of the day I think it is more power than most can handle well.

Stevie-Ray
April 13, 2012, 10:59 PM
Plus they don't make a 10mm carbine!

Sure they do.Whoa! Hey Sam, do you know of anybody that has tried out that Oly Arms upper? I used to bug Marlin to make a Camp Carbine in 10mm, but hey, this is something I'd really be interested in.:p

I've loved the 10 since the eighties and bought a Colt Delta Elite back then. It's still in my collection, still quite lovely, and will be the last to go, though I also have a Glock 29 that now has woods/hiking duty. None of those pussification rounds have been through either of them. Minimum has been PMC 170 gr at 1200 fps.

dsb1829
April 14, 2012, 10:44 AM
Have you ever shot one? I saw a Glock being fired at the range one day. The recoil was stout and the sucker was loud enough that I had to put on both foam plugs and a muff. No thanks. Out of a carbine, maybe, but I'm in no hurry to indulge. The Mod. 19 .357 I was shooting made less noise and recoil than that Glock. :eek:
Owning a model 66 357 and a glock 20 I can assure you that the slide action and polymer frame soak up more of the recoil than a K-frame 357 revolver. Noise is subjective and perception varies by position. I think they are indistinguishable in terms or noise, both produce magnum level noise.

Yes, the 10mm is a versatile round. So are many other rounds. If you reload the sky is the limit.

MCgunner
April 14, 2012, 11:33 AM
If you reload, a .45 colt in a Blackhawk is a pretty danged versatile round. I mean, it can push .44 mag ballistics and, yet, with light loads, it may be a bit much, but it'll bring home a rabbit for camp dinner. Actually, you can do that with cowboy loads and Buffalo Bore, but not so much on a tight budget. :D

I prefer revolvers for outdoor carry and versatility is the reason. I often take camp meat when I'm out hunting other stuff with my rifle and a .357 can shoot the lightest .38 to the heaviest magnum, something that would require a recoil spring change at the very least on an autoloader. Powder puff wadcutters or my 105 grain SWC over 2.3 grains Bullseye in a .38 case, very accurate and effective small game gitter and only requires a sight elevation change, would not work in an autoloader set up for magnum pressure.

The term "versatile" means different things to different folks. Via light .38s to heavy 180 magnums, a .357 revolver is a versatile field carry for which one need not take along spare parts in the field to change loads. Add to this the inherent better accuracy of the revolver afield and I'm just not interested in the 10 for field use.

357 Terms
April 14, 2012, 01:48 PM
As for where it slots ballistics wise. The 10mm slots right between the .357 and .41 mags. If you can find small primer brass one can go .41 mag numbers.

This is what irks me most about some 10mmauto owners.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

The 10mm is no more powerful than full power 357's

SatCong
April 14, 2012, 02:05 PM
Quote:
As for where it slots ballistics wise. The 10mm slots right between the .357 and .41 mags. If you can find small primer brass one can go .41 mag numbers.

This is what irks me most about some 10mmauto owners.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

The 10mm is no more powerful than full power 357's.
I do have 357's 45's 44mags,been shooting them and reloading for them,for about 50 years. Sir ,your very wrong.

PabloJ
April 14, 2012, 02:26 PM
Why would you think that? I can run any of those loads, and some even hotter, in any of my five 10mm autoloaders without a problem. They all function fine with the anemic CCI blazer ammo as well as my 180 gr./1,400 FPS handloads, and everything in between.
It's nice to be able to shoot readily available .40S&W ammo in same firearm w/o alterations. What popular caliber ammo was always in stock during shortages about four years ago?:scrutiny:

meanmrmustard
April 14, 2012, 03:03 PM
Don't know if this is relevant, but my local Walmart does not carry 10mm auto, but our local hardware store has quite a bit. Odd?

agtman
April 14, 2012, 04:17 PM
Cool t-shirt.
Somebody should make one of this popular drawing that I've seen on various forums:
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1...dgejokezd9.jpg

Or, like this one ... :evil:

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/motivatorb1e9472e259df71cdf008b9e32.jpg

:cool:

Peter M. Eick
April 14, 2012, 04:48 PM
I like this one better. I shot all of these today.

50 shots offhand

http://eickpm.com/picts/610-65_t1_041412.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/610-65_t2_041412.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/610-65_t3_041412.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/610-65_t4_041412.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/610-65-setup.jpg

This is my 610-65 shooter. This just goes to show that the 10mm is a nice versatile revolver round.

http://eickpm.com/picts/610x2.jpg

Loosedhorse
April 14, 2012, 04:55 PM
Yes. :)

agtman
April 14, 2012, 06:39 PM
I look on the 10 as easy to reload and very versatile. It can be most things to most people but at the end of the day I think it is more power than most can handle well.

Actually, the phrasology of the OP's question was, in a more declaratory form, coined by me on these boards back in the early 2000s:

"The 10mm is the most versatile autoloading cartidge extant." ;)

No pride of authorship, however, especially on the ethernet. :D

But I agree with Peter (nice 610 pics!), in that "most" shooters probably are weekend warrior-types - better described as casual shooters, not professional pistoleros - for whom a 9mm or .45 is fine. For the sort of "hobby shooting" they do, they can shoot guns chambered in these calibers reasonably well. I see this at our local range all the time ...

The 10mm, being designed from the ground up for "combat" use (per Jeff Cooper), simply takes more time and effort to become proficient with - and what most forget, it also obligates you to practice regularly with it to stay proficient. :scrutiny: I'm talking about real 10mm ammo here by the way, not the watered-down, .40-duplicating variety. If that's the power-level you want for all or most of your "10mm" shooting, don't get a 10mm. Get a .40S&W and be done with it.

So while the full-throttle 10mm, or even loads in the upper mid-range, may be "more power than most can handle well," given that these "most" wouldn't invest the time necessary to train up to the 10mm, that's hardly the cartridge's fault. :scrutiny:

Among the so-called "service cartridges," the 10mm chooses you, not you it. And for the weekend warrior the 10mm can be a harsh mistress. It's a caliber you have to want to shoot extensively. But almost everyone who's stuck with the 10mm long enough to see its capability first hand, and who understands its versatility of use, has never looked back.

Power, Penetration, Accuracy, Versatility - what's not to like? Among the so-called "service catridges," the 10mm distinguishes itself from the herd, as do its users ...

... Which brings us to another T-Shirt concept that on a different board got the 10mm accused of having an "attitude" problem. :rolleyes:

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/motivator46fdd30941de0051d087f76546.jpg

:cool:

SatCong
April 14, 2012, 07:37 PM
162729Here is my Colt 10mm. It's over 80,000 rounds and on it third barrel. She is a shooter.

R.W.Dale
April 14, 2012, 08:13 PM
This is what irks me most about some 10mmauto owners.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

The 10mm is no more powerful than full power 357's

Agreed. And yet that doesn't stop them from quoting some un tested un proven God knows how high a pressure overloads to compare to nice normal PRESSURE TESTED loads right out of a manual.

10mm is very versatile in that its oddball enough to have a panache about it and has just enough performance to send to send the newbie handloader on a never ending orgasm of brass bulging overloading in that eternal quest for 25fps more. Don't believe me see the double tap thread and note the only thing important to 10mm guys is how fast the load is with no care for what projectile is going downrange.

GambJoe
April 14, 2012, 08:14 PM
I never wanted a Glock until now.

Peter M. Eick
April 14, 2012, 09:04 PM
http://eickpm.com/picts/10mm_collection.jpg

10mm Baer, eaa witness (bottom) G20 (top)

Of all of the guns I sold, my glock 20 is the one I wonder about the most. I could never get over the plastic frame flex of the plastic frame during recoil. I put a great barrel in it, it was accurate, reliable, easy to shoot well but I could never master the frame flex problem.

Often like this I think I should go buy it back from my shooting buddy.

Hikester
April 14, 2012, 09:06 PM
Nice collection, Peter! Nice shooting, too.

Peter M. Eick
April 14, 2012, 09:06 PM
http://eickpm.com/picts/hwml_slide.jpg

If that does not get your heart pitter pattering for a 10mm I don't know what will.

A custom Les Baer 10mm HeavyWeight Monolith with his 1.5" 50 yard accuracy option and full tactical rounding. It is guns like this that the 10mm was made for in terms of versatility.

MachIVshooter
April 14, 2012, 09:21 PM
It's nice to be able to shoot readily available .40S&W ammo in same firearm w/o alterations.

I see that as being of little benefit in a nation where we can own as many guns as we want. If I want to shoot .40, I'll take my 4006. If I want to shoot 10mm, I'll take one of the five I own. If I want to shoot both on the same day, I am perfectly capable of toting 2 handguns ;)

What popular caliber ammo was always in stock during shortages about four years ago?

On my shelves? All of them. I keep enough on hand that I'm not subject to whimsical shortages and price-gouging. I can't even remember the last time I had less than 10,000 centerfire rounds on hand, and it's usually double that or more.

gym
April 14, 2012, 09:46 PM
The only reason the ten isn't as popular is the cost of the ammo. And other than Glocks, the guns like Deltas have skyrocketed. If a company made one at a decent price and ammo at full power it would be more popular. I know Smith and some other whitness type guns are out there, but nothing really cool, unless you get into the $2000.00 dolar and above range.
Then no one stocks ammo, so you have to order it, or reload, with all the choices out there other than true 10mm fans, new shooters will never see one.Same with the 41 mag. They are getting impossible to find ammo for. That is a real stopper.Some countries like Mexico use 38 supers much more than we do. 25 years ago just about every Mexican cop had a 38 super. Things change.

SatCong
April 14, 2012, 10:08 PM
Your correct.I love L B's and 10mm no less. :) A custom Les Baer 10mm HeavyWeight Monolith with his 1.5" 50 yard accuracy option and full tactical rounding. It is guns like this that the 10mm was made for in terms of versatility.

MachIVshooter
April 14, 2012, 10:09 PM
If a company made one at a decent price and ammo at full power it would be more popular.

Well, there are, of course, all the Witness models. But also the Sarsilmaz K2 17+1 round 10mm. There have been others, like the Star Megastar.

There are a number of companies offering full power 10mm ammo.

I know Smith and some other whitness type guns are out there, but nothing really cool

Seriously?

http://www.gundirectory.com/guns/20002-1.jpg

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/eaa.gif

http://www.hyattgunstore.com/images/P/main-2639.jpg

http://www.henningshootsguns.com/images/Guns/WitnessEliteStock.jpg

http://www.lincolncountyguns.com/images/G600650.GIF

http://www.eaacorp.com/images/Witness-Elite/Stock2_LG.jpg

http://www.henningshootsguns.com/images/Guns/WitnessEliteLimited.jpg

And that's not even all of them......

.338Sako
April 14, 2012, 11:12 PM
In a word, it penetrates. Far more than .45 ACP does, at least in the full-house loads. Check out these ballistic gelatin results, showing that the best 10mm rounds tested (DoubleTap 200gr) penetrated 19.5 inches, compared with 15.25" for .45ACP. And DoubleTap 200gr isn't even close to being the most powerful 10mm cartridge available. A Buffalo Bore 220gr @1200fps would likely penetrate quite a bit farther.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

If I was carrying in the woods for protection against large animals (say, anything smaller than a grizzly bear), I'd much rather have a 10mm on my hip than a .45ACP.

For defense against 2-legged threats, where overpenetration might be a concern, there are plenty of hollow points in lesser loadings that would get the job done very nicely, but still provide good penetration through clothing or light barriers.
^^^ what he said. I love my g20 and my 1911's. Carrying in the woods I'll take my 10mm w/200 gr doubletaps in hard cast.

intercooler
April 15, 2012, 01:10 AM
R.W. Dale,

No that isn't all we care about is FPS but we at least strive for it to be in the 10mm range or might as well just have a .40.


I see threads like this with so much lack of knowledge. Maybe they are people that haven't owned one or done the research. Plenty of offerings and plenty of ammo out there. Maybe not in your local Wally World but most of the good shops have it.

Mach,

I so want the Limited Custom Canadian version! It is the black with Stainless slide.

intercooler
April 15, 2012, 01:12 AM
Here it is but can't get it in the U.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVW-FQAEZw8

http://www.tanfoglio.it/eng/catalogo/sport-amp-competition/limited-custom.html

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 11:30 AM
I so want the Limited Custom Canadian version! It is the black with Stainless slide.

Good looking pistol, but it's ported :barf:

Yeah, the porting helps in competetive shooting. But that is one place the 10mm is not a good choice when speed is emphasized; Smaller, lighter-recoiling cartridges will make major PF. The whole point of 10mm is magnum handgun performance in a conventional autoloader. Port the barrel half way back like that, and you kiss your velocity goodbye.

greenlion
April 15, 2012, 01:54 PM
And other than Glocks, the guns like Deltas have skyrocketed. If a company made one at a decent price and ammo at full power it would be more popular. I know Smith and some other whitness type guns are out there, but nothing really cool, unless you get into the $2000.00 dolar and above range.

This was sort of my point much earlier on. GLOCK makes 10mm guns, and I think Kimber makes/made one. Other than that, they are limited-production special order items from custom shops.

Look, in current production 9mm guns, I can get a 6" longslide auto, a 5" racegun, a duty sized pistol, a compact duty pistol, a subcompact, a mini-pocket sized gun, a derringer, a revolver, a carbine rifle, a submachine gun, etc.

If I go with 10mm I can get the GLOCK 20 or the GLOCK 29. I know the actual CARTRIDGE may be more versatile, but overall the 10mm is VERY limited. I wish it were more common, but then again, I also wish I could get revolvers in 10mm-rimmed, and carbines in 10mm, etc.

el Godfather
April 15, 2012, 01:59 PM
Versatile ok but most versatile....I don't think so.

Yes, it is powerful, and in case of autoloaders the most powerful while keeping the pistol size reasonable.

psyshack
April 15, 2012, 02:57 PM
357 Terms, SatCong and R.W. Dale

Really? Best get your chrony's out,,, start loading up ammo and study up.

There is no way I can get a .357 158gn XTP to the number's I can get out of a 155gn XTP in 10mm in the 4" to 6" barrel range. Nor the energy. I can do compressed H-110 loads and other powders with mag primers and always come up short by a noticeable margin. Same holds true for other bullet weights in my experience. The .357 always comes up short over all. My G20 does not wreck brass with it's LW barrel. It does not blow primers out or otherwise present a danger to myself or others.

As for the .41 mag. The only ,,, and I mean only way you can get close to .41 mag numbers is using small primer 10mm brass which is very hard to impossible to find.

Now if your comparing .357 to 10mm concerning retail ammo. Well yeah! Seeing most 10mm common retail ammo is worthless Smith .40 junk loading in longer brass. The .357 retail is much stouter.

I shoot and reload both the .357 and 10mm. And enjoy the heck out of both! But in the end. My loaded up G20 lays waist to my well loaded up 686P. Bottom line, the G20 can only dream about getting into the gated community called .41 mag. :)

R.W.Dale
April 15, 2012, 03:52 PM
As is my point previously and so beautifully illustrated in the above post for 10mm guys FPS is the only goal.

What is a 155 .40 caliber bullet good for? Because a 158g .357" bullet of suitable construction is adequate for black bears on down with its superior SD.

I can load 125grain 357 loads that just like your 10 loads will put down some impressive numbers due to sheer velocity. But they wont be useful on anything besides paper with such an overdriven bullet. Just like hot 155g 10mm loads.

Compare 158g 357 to 180g ten so you have bullets of similar SD and construction and the 10 loses out. Or better yet 180g 357 to 200g ten.

And of course again AT WHAT PRESSURE? A question 10mm fanbois really strive hard to not dwell on.

And for the record I've owned and handloaded a ten millimeter or two in my days. 10mm is no 357 magnum and for dang sure hides in the shadow of 41

psyshack
April 15, 2012, 03:58 PM
What I shot early today after the storms passed. Yeah it's a 4" Smith and the Glock has a 5.15" barrel in it. There both hot loads and are accurate. And the only way that .357 load will start coming up on that 10mm load is with a 8"+ barrel.

But it does shoot good double action. :)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/50y.jpg

Edit: 10mm is a Blue Dot load.

SatCong
April 15, 2012, 04:33 PM
R.W.Dale
As is my point previously and so beautifully illustrated in the above post for 10mm guys FPS is the only goal.

What is a 155 .40 caliber bullet good for? Because a 158g .357" bullet of suitable construction is adequate for black bears on down with its superior SD.

I can load 125grain 357 loads that just like your 10 loads will put down some impressive numbers due to sheer velocity. But they wont be useful on anything besides paper with such an overdriven bullet. Just like hot 155g 10mm loads.

Compare 158g 357 to 180g ten so you have bullets of similar SD and construction and the 10 loses out. Or better yet 180g 357 to 200g ten.

And of course again AT WHAT PRESSURE? A question 10mm fanbois really strive hard to not dwell on.

And for the record I've owned and handloaded a ten millimeter or two in my days. 10mm is no 357 magnum and for dang sure hides in the shadow of 41

I'am sorry, I have loaded the 10mm from about 1990 or 91 to now. For my pick for black bears it would be 200 grain good hard case bullet , moving over 1,200 FPS and it's .043 bigger bore.I would never say the 10mm is good as the 41 mag.But this is for sure, the 357 isn't up to the 10mm. By the way, been loading and shooting 357 from 60's to now.Sorry if this up-sets you.

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 05:13 PM
This was sort of my point much earlier on. GLOCK makes 10mm guns, and I think Kimber makes/made one. Other than that, they are limited-production special order items from custom shops.

Look, in current production 9mm guns, I can get a 6" longslide auto, a 5" racegun, a duty sized pistol, a compact duty pistol, a subcompact, a mini-pocket sized gun, a derringer, a revolver, a carbine rifle, a submachine gun, etc.

If I go with 10mm I can get the GLOCK 20 or the GLOCK 29. I know the actual CARTRIDGE may be more versatile, but overall the 10mm is VERY limited. I wish it were more common, but then again, I also wish I could get revolvers in 10mm-rimmed, and carbines in 10mm, etc.

:banghead:

There are over 20 current production 10mm pistols, from compact polymer guns to 6" hunting pistols to competition guns and even the S&W 610 revolver. Prices range from $300 to as much as you want to spend on a custom.

And don't forget the Mechtec and Oly-arms K-10 in the carbine department.

10mm is no 357 magnum

Yeah, you're right. They don't have virtually the same case capacities and operating pressures or anything. Oh, wait..........yes they do :rolleyes:

10mm: 24.0 grs. H2O, 37,500 PSI
.357 Magnum: 27.0 grs. H2O, 35,000 PSI

Anyone who's played with both knows darn well they're ballistic twins. Out of pressure barrels, max loads for either mirror each other. When comparing a 5" barreled auto to a 4" revolver (making for a 5.7" chamber & barrel), the 10mm will come out on top, because there is no cylinder gap. That's where the advantage lies. To make .357 mag loads hit the 770 ft/lbs my 10mm loads will in a G-20, I have to go to my behemoth 6" 686.

S&W 586 4", 158 gr. JHP, 13.0 grs. blue dot: 1,440 FPS & 727 ft/lbs
S&W 686 6", 158 gr. JHP, 13.0 grs. blue dot: 1,495 FPS & 783 ft/lbs
Glock 20 4.6", 180 gr. Golden Sabre, 10.8 grs. IMR-800x: 1,390 FPS & 772 ft/lbs
Witness Limited 5.25", 180 gr. Golden Sabre, 10.8 grs. IMR-800x: 1,430 FPS & 817 ft/lbs

Both the .357 Mag and 10mm loads listed here are slightly (0.5 gr.) over max published data.

Furthermore, while ballistic twins they may be, the advantage of the 10mm offering that power in a lighter weight, more compact handgun holding 2-1/2 times as many round is rather obvious.

I love my .357's, but I'm not diluded about what they are or aren't, and if it's my bottom on the line, I'll grab a 10mm every time.

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 07:11 PM
Really? Best get your chrony's out,,, start loading up ammo and study up.

OK psyshack!!

Give me some chrony data! I have mine!!!!


The 155grn bullet will NOT! hold up to the same velocity the 158grn 357 will...simple as that!

Sorry man, it is just a fact.

When you factor in the sectional density of the 357 and the ability and versatility of the MANY different bullet configurations , the 10mm doesn't even come close to how versatile the 357 is.....FACT!!

Study up kid.

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 07:28 PM
Design velocity window comparisons from Hornady data regarding their XTPs;

10mm 155gr - 850fps to 1300fps _ sectional density .138
.357mag 158gr HP - 700fps to 1400fps
.357mag 158gr FP - 1150fps to 1800fps _ sectional density .177

10mm 180gr - 750fps to 1450fps _ sectional density .161
.357mag 180gr - 900 to 1700fps _ sectional density .202

10mm 200gr - 700fps to 1200fps _ sectional density .179



That data was from an old thread.

Notice the 155,8grn velocity, my 357 XTP handloads will hit 1550fps from my Blackhawk.

The 10mm will break apart well before the 357 will, even at carbine velocities.

That! and the sectional density is MUCH better, as a hunting round the 357 is hands down better!

It is not just velocity son, it is bullet construction, sectional density, the platform from which the bullet is delivered.

The 357 is sooo much more versatile that any comparison or argument is silly.

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 07:28 PM
When you factor in the sectional density of the 357 and the ability and versatility of the MANY different bullet configurations , the 10mm doesn't even come close to how versatile the 357 is.....FACT!!

.400" bullets range from 135 grains to 230 grains. (95 gr. range)

.357" bullets range from 110 grains to 200 grains. (90 gr. range)

Sectional densities remain fairly close when the ratio of bore size to bullet weight is similar (duh!). 230 gr. 10mm is .205, 200 gr. .357 is .224. Obviously you can skew the numbers drastically in your favor as a .357 fanboy by comparing equal bullet weights in different diameters.

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 07:34 PM
Obviously you can skew the numbers drastically in your favor as a .357 fanboy by comparing equal bullet weights in different diameters.


LOL!

Pot calling the kettle black mach 1V

So are you saying that the 10mm is a better all around/versatile round than the 357?

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 07:39 PM
...because if you are, remember, its not just the caliber-

Its also the platform it can be delivered by, the 357 is hands down, no doubt about it WAAAY ahead of the "niche" 10mm.

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 07:42 PM
Pot calling the kettle black mach 1V

I own multiple firearms in both chamberings, and I enjoy load development and range time with both, so no pot and no kettle here.

So are you saying that the 10mm is a better all around/versatile round than the 357?

Nope. The rounds themselves are equal. It is the platform that gives the 10mm an edge in most instances. As I said, it can acheive the same power from a lighter, more compact platform with more than double the capacity.

Don't even start with some nonsense about accuracy, either. We both know that neither the autoloader nor the revolver is more inherently accurate than the other. My 6" 686 is an absolute tack driver, but I can produce equally good groups with my Kimber Stainless Target II 10mm or Witness Limited. Same can be said of my 586 and my 1006. Or my M65 and G20. Or the M60 and Witness Compact.

intercooler
April 15, 2012, 07:51 PM
Where do you get great velocity of 158's in a 4.20" GP100? I have numbers for the big players and it still sucks!

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 07:51 PM
because if you are, remember, its not just the caliber-

Its also the platform it can be delivered by, the 357 is hands down, no doubt about it WAAAY ahead of the "niche" 10mm.

Ummm....

can you say S&W 610?

And let's not forget the Coonan .357.

Why do you have such an emotional investment in this, anyway? It's not like either round is hurting sales for the other. A few more people recognizing the utility in the 10mm is certainly not going to spell the end for your beloved .357 mag that has endured nearly 80 years.

Try being objective. Sheesh.

Loosedhorse
April 15, 2012, 07:52 PM
.400" bullets range from 135 grains to 230 grains.125 gr .40 bullets (http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=BX40003) are also available. :o

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 07:56 PM
It is the platform that gives the 10mm an edge in most instances

Nope.

My 357 Marlin can shoot a 180grn XTP at 1600+fps, and still retain 165grn after recovery.
Show me ONE 10mm HP at that weight that can perform at that velocity!!!!



The 10mm can't come close to the versatility of the 357.

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 07:58 PM
Try being objective. Sheesh.

Try being realistic.

SatCong
April 15, 2012, 08:00 PM
357 Terms
My 357 Marlin can shoot a 180grn XTP at 1600+fps, and still retain 165grn after recovery.
Show me ONE 10mm HP at that weight that can perform at that velocity!!!!
Boy are you reaching.:what:

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 08:06 PM
My 357 Marlin can shoot a 180grn XTP at 1600+fps, and still retain 165grn after recovery.
Show me ONE 10mm HP at that weight that can perform at that velocity!!!!

That's great, but last I checked, this is the HANDGUNS subforum.

Also, I thought we'd already covered the diameter versus weight thing. Do I need to explain it better for you?

Regardless, If I'm going to carry a rifle, it's not gonna be a wimpy .357 mag or 10mm.

But......if one wanted to, they could load 200, 220 or 230 gr. pills into their 17 shot G20 mechtec or Oly-arms K10 with 20 rounds and meet your performace requirements with a faster-firing, higher-capacity platform. Are you seeing a trend yet?

Try being realistic.

Try being an adult.

Thus far, all you've really managed to do is spew misinformation and insult people (calling them "son", telling them to "study up")

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:07 PM
SatCong-...???

That is a fact!

Study up on 357 carbine velocities, and bullet performance.

It is no secret.

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:11 PM
That's great, but last I checked, this is the HANDGUNS subforum

We are talking about the versatility of a particular round!

If you want to limit the calibers to certain barrel lengths than your argument is, and excuse the pun, well...SHOT!:neener:

berettashotgun
April 15, 2012, 08:11 PM
If a plastic Glock can take it, a metal gun can too, granted it's not a turd.
Hikester that's downright funny.:p
Being the proud owner of a 1006 that I really enjoy shooting, the 10mm is here to stay (at my house).

I'd LOVE to get a beretta carbine chambered in a 10mm - IF I could find some decent price on loaded ammo BLAZER maybe?:banghead:

I reload a few """EXOTIC""" cartridges ( 6ppc 262nk, 7saum, 22-250imp 247nk, 351 wsl w/ homemade brass) and would just like to actually get to "plink" with a 10mm pistol, but the ammo is holding me back.

Waiting for starline to drop 1k brass( to buy ) for 2 months wasn't fun as far as shooting goes.

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:15 PM
Regardless, If I'm going to carry a rifle, it's not gonna be a wimpy .357 mag or 10mm.

For many of us ( myself in Indiana included ) we are limited to straight wall pistol rounds.

The 357 is legal, a rifle round is not!

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:17 PM
Thus far, all you've really managed to do is spew misinformation

Please tell me ONE piece of misinformation I have posted!

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 08:17 PM
If you want to limit the calibers to certain barrel lengths than your argument is, and excuse the pun, well...SHOT!

Did you even read the post?

I said:

if one wanted to, they could load 200, 220 or 230 gr. pills into their 17 shot G20 mechtec or Oly-arms K10 with 20 rounds and meet your performace requirements with a faster-firing, higher-capacity platform.



For many of us ( myself in Indiana included ) we are limited to straight wall pistol rounds.

The 357 is legal, a rifle round is not!

Then why not use a .44 mag or .454 casull and have some real power and bullets with real sectional density?

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:25 PM
re-read post 110 mach1V

The point of this thread is to discuss the versatility of the 10mm.

It comes nowhere near being as versatile as the 357.

The platforms are a HUGE consideration!

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:27 PM
Then why not use a .44 mag or .454 casull and have some real power and bullets with real sectional density?

Why?

My Marlin in 357 has been very effective, which proves my point better than anything!

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:28 PM
Please tell me ONE piece of misinformation I have posted!

Oh, I will ask again.

Give me ONE piece of misinformation I have posted!

SatCong
April 15, 2012, 08:34 PM
READ! Handguns: Autoloaders Now that's a fact! Study up on 357 carbine velocities, and bullet performance.

It is no secret.:banghead:Two old for this. Oh well, I well top your 357 carbine to 44 mag-carbine ?

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:39 PM
Again-

We are talking about the versatility of HANDGUN rounds!

If I can shoot a pistol round from a carbine and it is EFFECTIVE, that means it is more versatile!

Not to mention the MANY different barrel lenghts, platforms the 357 is available compared to the 10mm!

It really isn't an argument; at least not a rational one.

intercooler
April 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
Geesh where is the off button. This as stated is about the 10mm. How did the .357 get injected into the 10mm thread? Talking about off-topic!

357 Terms
April 15, 2012, 08:49 PM
:This as stated is about the 10mm. How did the .357 get injected into the 10mm thread?

Good point....sorry :)

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 09:17 PM
Give me ONE piece of misinformation I have posted!

Your entire premise.

Why you choose to ignore the fact that BOTH cartridges are chambered in revolvers, autoloading pistols and carbines, and that BOTH cartridges will produce identical ballistics from the same barrel length/platform is beyond me.

Even more confounding is why, as I mentioned earlier, you're so emotionally invested in the matter. They're friggin' CARTRIDGES, and just two out of HUNDREDS. You act like someone telling you the truth about the two rounds just killed your dog and slapped your sister. I don't get it.......:scrutiny:

I'm done debating you until you can replace the strange emotion-driven argument with a rational one.

R.W.Dale
April 15, 2012, 09:34 PM
As barrel length increases so does 357's advantage over 10mm. Saying performance will be identical because pressure and case capacity are the same is a gross oversimplification and ignores the very important factor of bore case ratio. 10mm uses faster propellants at lesser volumes than 357 mag can because due to the tens higher expansion ratio pressure drops much faster as the bullet travels (same capacity bigger bore) this is why the 10mm in a carbine like its other autoloder cousins sees very little velocity gain in longer barrels.

Don't believe me see BBTI
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

357 from the same 18" barrel will launch 158 g bullets almost 500 fps faster than 10mm can 155's of much inferior SD

IN THE REAL WORLD with similar case capacities, identical bullets and the same pressure rating 10mm and 40s&w performance will be similar (within 150 fps). If its NOT similar what's changed is pressure!

browningguy
April 15, 2012, 10:07 PM
in that "most" shooters probably are weekend warrior-types - better described as casual shooters, not professional pistoleros - for whom a 9mm or .45 is fine.
For the sort of "hobby shooting" they do, they can shoot guns chambered in these calibers reasonably well. I see this at our local range all the time ...

That's about the most pathetic thing I have ever read, even on the internet.

Speed and accuracy (or lack thereof) wins or loses gun fights. For all of you youngsters out there reading this please note it is just bad advice, something to try to get the testosterone flowing. Why not just go to a .50 Desert Eagle, "professional pistoleros" only want to shoot the biggest, right?

How many professional "pistoleros" can you name that shoot the full power 10mm as their carry gun of choice. I know a few professionals, both police and military, (although obviously they don't fit the above definition), and not a single one of these vaunted "professionals" carries a 10mm. I've also been to a few regional and national IDPA and IPSC matches where the best shooters in the world are competing and have never seen anyone shooting a 10mm. And the reason why, they aren't faster or more accurate.

Loosedhorse
April 15, 2012, 10:30 PM
The subforum here is Handguns: Autoloaders. While I can name two autoloaders for the .357, its not an autoloader cartridge, or a carbine cartridge. While I can name a revolver and a derringer that fires 10mm, it's an autoloader cartridge.

JMHOwhere the best shooters in the world are competing and have never seen anyone shooting a 10mm.Well, maybe if the targets shot back, and the competitors were limited to handguns, more would.

;)

gym
April 15, 2012, 11:23 PM
It's just not practical for the average person. I see 460's and 50cal at the gun store as a friend shoots and sells large caliber guns, but there isn't much of a market for those either. At two bucks a bullett with a thousand dollar scope, it is more of a specialty item, or hunting pistol, lets face it, it's a dam rifle witha 8 inch barrell, very limited group of consumers for those. But at least they are "different" the 10 is too close to other rounds out there, like the 41 mag was. If you can't find ammo for your gun easily, then you aren't going to keep it. The Glocks that use the underloaded 10mm stuff that can easily be found, offer no real advantage over more popular rounds.

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2012, 11:34 PM
IN THE REAL WORLD with similar case capacities, identical bullets and the same pressure rating 10mm and 40s&w performance will be similar (within 150 fps)

Show me a .40 S&W load that hits 1,200+ with a 180 grainer.

The real-world spread between top .40 loads and top 10mm loads is more like 250 to 300 FPS.

As barrel length increases so does 357's advantage over 10mm. Saying performance will be identical because pressure and case capacity are the same is a gross oversimplification and ignores the very important factor of bore case ratio. 10mm uses faster propellants at lesser volumes than 357 mag can because due to the tens higher expansion ratio pressure drops much faster as the bullet travels (same capacity bigger bore) this is why the 10mm in a carbine like its other autoloder cousins sees very little velocity gain in longer barrels.

Don't believe me see BBTI
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

OK, lets look at the mid bullet weights in both 10mm (180 gr.) and .357 (158 gr.) from that chart, and examine the velocity/energy in an 18" tube vs. a 6" tube.

10mm 180 grain
18": 1,573 FPS & 989 ft/lbs
6": 1,428 FPS & 815 ft/lbs

.357 mag 158 grain
18": 1721 FPS & 1,039 ft/lbs
6": 1,402FPS & 690 ft/lbs

Yes, the .357 can be loaded hotter than that-as can the 10mm. Likewise, if one were loading 10mm for a carbine, they'd use slower powders like Blue Dot and AA#7. On the same note, .357 optimized for short barrels uses faster powders. Of course, nobody is loading 10mm comercially with slow powders because, well, very few people own a 10mm carbine, so there is no real demand.

If I ever actually buy the Olyarms carbine, I'll revisit this with some data from appropriately loaded 10mm carbine rounds-I promise I can best those figures by quite a bit. But since I view pistol caliber carbines as being mostly useless, don't hold your breath.

Now, in the reverse situation, the 10mm suffers far less from shortening the tube; Cut to 2", the 10mm/180 is still getting 1,111 FPS & 493 ft/lbs, while the .357/158 load in a 2" barrel has dropped to 914 FPS and a pitiful 293 ft/lbs. And if we look at the load that gave the .357 the most oomph in a rifle, when you cut the tube to 2", you now have a .380 ACP (with tremendous muzzle blast).

Regardless, all of this debating with carbines ignores the OP, which has nothing to do with carbines, nothing to do with revolvers, and nothing to do with the .357 magnum. He asked about the 10mm, and it is, by far, the most versatile autopistol cartridge around.

R.W.Dale
April 15, 2012, 11:47 PM
I'm getting tired of pointing out that bbti's encore test barrel when measuring 2" translates to a 1/2" barrel on a revolver because of the different way they're measured.

Not surprisingly you opt to compare Buffalo bores overload for 10mm to federal 357? What are the numbers for federal 180g 10mm from that 2" barrel?

Asserting that a 2" 357 magnum is a 380 is of course quite absurd and just shows how tenuous your grasp on matters of internal ballistics are.

MachIVshooter
April 16, 2012, 12:02 AM
I'm getting tired of pointing out that bbti's encore test barrel when measuring 2" translates to a 1/2" barrel on a revolver because of the different way they're measured.

It's the same length for the 10mm. I know it doesn't suit your argument, but it's the truth. And the .357 would suffer even more in a revolver that measured 2" from cylinder face to muzzle than it does in their TC test. Shoot, look at the figures for the test barrel (integrated chamber) vs. the revolvers; The revolver velocities are lower, despite having the cylinder length add 1.7" to the breech-to-muzzle measurement.

Asserting that a 2" 357 magnum is a 380 is of course quite absurd and just shows how tenuous your grasp on matters of internal ballistics are

Look, that hot Cor-Bon 125 gr. load scored 914 FPS & 232 ft/lbs from the 2" tube in the chart that YOU cited as a reference. The .380 ACP can muster more than that fired from the stubby Kel-Tec P3AT. Like it or not, those are the numbers.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=129

My own 102 gr. Golden Sabre handloads clocked an average 1,067 FPS from my P3AT for 259 ft/lbs.

You were the one who drug that chart into this, so don't get cranky when the rest of us use the info provided in it to make our points.

R.W.Dale
April 16, 2012, 12:09 AM
My 2" barreled 9x19 snubby will launch 124 grain bullets over 1150fps now it may not blow it out of the water but if you don't think a 357 can beat a 9x19 I want some of that 10mm paote you're on. Compared to either cartridge your 380 mousegun struggling to hit 1000 fps with 100grains is a joke.

Your beloved Buffalo bore has a plethora of 357 loads tested in snubby revolvers pushing bullets of 158 grains firmly above 1000fps

Again you can't use 2" contender numbers because NOBODY makes a 357 or any other revolver with a barrel that short .5". Cylinder gap plays a very minor part in the velocity equasion.

Robert
April 16, 2012, 12:17 AM
6 pages of bickering is enough. Why is it anytime someone says 10mm heads explode all over the internet?

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