NBC does another report on Remington


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springfield30-06
April 11, 2012, 11:05 AM
"Remington denies allegations of ignoring potential defect in some rifles, shotguns" on NBC's Rock Center (http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/10/11119192-remington-denies-allegations-of-ignoring-potential-defect-in-some-rifles-shotguns?lite)

Another investigative report airs Wednesday, April 11, at 9pm/8c on NBC.

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tyeo098
April 11, 2012, 11:25 AM
Every single comment supports Remington.
Lol.

Murphy4570
April 11, 2012, 12:23 PM
NBC has no credibility anymore. Nothing they say is worth taking at face value.

jmr40
April 11, 2012, 12:25 PM
I only watched the first couple of minutes. Issues with all of Remington's bolt rifles firing without pulling the trigger have been well documented since the 1940's. Never heard of a single issue with the 870 series firing on their own though. I'll have to watch the episode and decide.

rajb123
April 11, 2012, 12:35 PM
I saw the first show many times which aired on CNBC.

I beleive occasionally the guns do fire without pulling the trigger and I would not own one even though I practice safe gun handling at all times... I did own a Remington Model 700 in the 1970s but I sold it. I never had any misfires...

Many of the people interviewed on the first show were indeed hurt by Remington guns. Unfortunetly, 99% of these incidences could have been avoided if the gun handler had pointed the loaded guns in a safe direction....

There really is no excuse for poor gun handling and the lawyers should not hold Remington accountable for other people's poor judgement in handling loaded guns.

The first show did not discuss shotguns; which Remington shotguns are "now" problematic?

effengee
April 11, 2012, 01:14 PM
I watched the first report and was really angry. They showed the scene with the police sniper several times, and it looked more like a hang fire than a problem with the rifle. The incident where the mom shot her kid was what really angered me. You're aiming a .30-06 at an aluminum horse trailer and expecting that a round wouldn't go clean through it and your kid on the other side? That muzzle should have been pointed at the ground or in the air when she started cycling the action. The interview with the designer seemed to be staged a bit. I wasn't convinced at all. My brother has hunted with a 700 for more than 20 years and he has never had a problem. He even tried to make his misfire, yet couldn't get it to. It's always a tragedy when someone dies accidentally by a firearm, but it's also sad when people misuse a firearm and then try to blame the firearm.

springfield30-06
April 11, 2012, 01:23 PM
I watched the first report and was really angry.

Me too, I was surprised to find out that they're having another show on them... this time it's apparently about the 870 and 1100.

I have 2 Remington 700's. Did I get mad at Remington or get rid of them because of the first show? - NO.
I have 2 Remington 870's. Will I get rid of them because of this new show? - NO.

I haven't ever had a problem with any of these firearms.

Scott30
April 11, 2012, 02:01 PM
I have a 700 and a 870 both of which are used yearly. Not safe queens in my collection. Both have been 100% reliable. After the first report, I tried to make them malfunction as they described but could not do it.

Quit messing with the factory setting on the trigger groups people!

jmr40
April 11, 2012, 02:35 PM
this time it's apparently about the 870 and 1100.



Once again, I've never heard of a Remington shotgun firing on it's own. I've seen a model 700 do it and the evidence is overwhelming that they can and sometimes do. Remington did pay out in a class action lawsuit back in the early 90's involving their shotgun barrels splitting. It was determined that it was of no danger, so no recall. The basis of the lawsuit was over potential resale value. IIRC they paid out something like $40 million divided equally among anyone who owned one of their 870, 1100, or 11-87 shotguns at the time. I owned two 11-87's at the time and got $80 if I remember right.

skipbo32
April 11, 2012, 03:59 PM
TONIGHT AT 8PM CENTRAL ON NBC......FOR THOSE THAT OWN REMINGTON RIFLES. sheds light on the the safety of common fire control models, including: the 870, the 1100, the 700 and the 742, among others.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...94687#46994687

this has been a controversial subject of gun owners for years now. one way or the other, i believe it will be curious and possibly informative information to gun owners abroad no matter what their stance is on the issue.

this thread is not to fuel political propaganda, but to open the subject up for conversation and debate.

share your thoughts.

XxBulletBendeRXx
April 11, 2012, 04:10 PM
Wonder if its gonna be new material? How many ways can a possible saftey failure or malfunction, be discussed? :scrutiny:

skipbo32
April 11, 2012, 04:20 PM
apparently it is new material on modern Remingtons.

conhntr
April 11, 2012, 04:42 PM
The old remington malfunction


A. Point gun at someone
B. pull trigger
C. Blame manufacturer

skipbo32
April 11, 2012, 05:02 PM
The old remington malfunction


A. Point gun at someone
B. pull trigger
C. Blame manufacturer

yeah, apparently this is the new malfunction, where the goes goes off with out pulling the trigger and the gun is on safe.

there was controversy on the 700s for doing this, but this news story is on the more modern models.

dont watch it if you dont want to. see if i give a rip. i just thought some people might want to see a gun related story here.......whether it is liberal biased news or factual.

HGM22
April 11, 2012, 05:18 PM
Should be interesting.

As much as people want to discredit NBC, I really do believe Remingtons have a problem with the trigger (the 700s that is). For everyone calling BS I really hope you practice safe gun handling; just because something isn't likely doesn't mean it can't happen. And in this case, the consequences are very grave indeed.

carbine85
April 11, 2012, 05:45 PM
I taught my boys to unload the gun when you are finished and never proper it up but lay it down. There may be a problem with the gun but this guy messed up.

sawdeanz
April 11, 2012, 05:58 PM
I also enjoyed reading the comments, quite informative too. I won't pretend to know about the engineering of the mechanism, but there is something to the idea that millions of perfectly fine 870's can't be wrong.

I think the problem I and a lot of other people has is that they are extrapolating a handful of cases (we all know that any manufacturer can make a lemon, even one that could potentially lead to a safety issue) and saying that Remington knowingly hid defects in it's design. I mean c'mon, Remington should payout if their shotgun was at fault in that particular case, but then to bash the whole company in a sensationalized docu-drama, nah that's just not cool.

Flopsweat
April 11, 2012, 06:12 PM
Well darn it, I have an 870 and an 1100, but no 700. I've always wanted one - maybe it's time.

ol' scratch
April 11, 2012, 06:25 PM
He didn't have the safety on, or his particular shotgun was defective. Plain and simple. I have had my 870 fall over in a duck blind with the safety on and it never went off. Also, if he was done hunting; why didn't he unload it?

Walking Dead
April 11, 2012, 06:45 PM
I watched it. There is nothing new about it. Same stuff we have heard for years.

effengee
April 11, 2012, 06:45 PM
I own many different brands and calibers of guns and ALWAYS practice safe gun handling. I have six kids and they practice safe gun handling. As a matter of fact, they had a half day of school today, and we went out in the backyard and practiced safe gun handling for at least an hour with .22 rifles and an old Hopkins and Allen .38 S&W. I found the NBC show to be a bit questionable in how they went about reporting the story like there's some giant conspiracy by Remington to produce unsafe guns, or to hide a manufacturing flaw. If you watch the scene where the police sniper has a problem with the gun, it really seems to me like it was a hang fire and NOT a design flaw. NBC never states what ammo they are using, how many rounds that gun has fired in its lifetime, how many it shot that day, nor even any particulars about that rifles maintenance schedule. We are to just assume that if you have a 700, it can and will fire all by itself without you squeezing the trigger. It's really sad about the mom who shot her kid, but again, she was pointing the gun unsafely when she started cycling the action.

I always fully acquaint myself and my family with a newly acquired unloaded gun BEFORE I put live ammo into it. We always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction while handling it and loading/unloading it. Believe me when I say that we take firearms safety as serious as a heart attack.

Double Naught Spy
April 11, 2012, 07:10 PM
He didn't have the safety on, or his particular shotgun was defective. Plain and simple. I have had my 870 fall over in a duck blind with the safety on and it never went off. Also, if he was done hunting; why didn't he unload it?

Like many hunters, he isn't done hunting until the gun is unloaded and like some of us, has probably encountered his quarry when he thought he was done hunting and had an unloaded gun, so you aren't done until you unload. I don't unload until I get to the gate leaving the property.

NBC has no credibility anymore. Nothing they say is worth taking at face value.

You know, I looked up the cases they mentioned on the Rem 700 and its variants' problems. Everything stated was supported by news articles and testimonies.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=550346&highlight=cnbc+700

It really doesn't matter if you think they are credible or not. The question at hand is if the information being presented is factual or not. Lot's of folks didn't like the story on the Rem 700's problems and blamed CNBC for making known that which Remington attempted to coverup.

I do like Remington's 3rd commandment of gun handling to never trust the safety. Ironic given than Remington's guns had been having problems with the safeties for decades.

The basis of the lawsuit was over potential resale value. IIRC they paid out something like $40 million divided equally among anyone who owned one of their 870, 1100, or 11-87 shotguns at the time. I owned two 11-87's at the time and got $80 if I remember right.

It is amazing that Remington has paid out 10s of millions of dollars to settle claims about guns they claim are 100% safe.

alsaqr
April 11, 2012, 07:14 PM
MSNBC is making a career of this one. i own 19 Remington model 721,722, and 700 guns. Together they have fired at least a million or two rounds of ammo. None of those guns have ever gone bang unless they were supposed to.

The Lone Haranguer
April 11, 2012, 07:20 PM
Consider the source. Remember their "report" on the "side-saddle" gas tanks on older (1973-87) GM trucks? They rigged the trucks with explosives. :rolleyes:

JustinJ
April 11, 2012, 07:45 PM
Unless you're on the beach or carry around a bucket of sand all backstops have only varying degress of safety with rifle caliber firearms. I agree that some of the accidents were preventable but if the gun truly does do unintential discharges as indicated that is unacceptable. The evidence seems pretty daming if one actually looks at it objectively instead of with the "media bad, guns good" mentality.

Furncliff
April 11, 2012, 07:56 PM
Consumers are responsible for using a product in the manner prescribed by the manufacturer.

Manufacturers are liable for a product deemed unsafe.

If you own a model 700 and have not had a smith look at the trigger you may be tempting fate. If needed, replacement triggers are not expensive and many will improve your rifle.

This is not a new issue, Remington has a reputation for putting their heads in the sand going back 60 years.

alsaqr
April 11, 2012, 08:01 PM
MSNBC is making a career of bashinging Remington.

foghornl
April 11, 2012, 08:52 PM
NBC =
N othing
B ut
C ommunists

MSNBC =
M ore (of the)
S ame

N othing
B ut
C ommunists

NBC, MS-NBC, C-NBC combined (for me) have a Credibility Rating of "LTZ"

Less Than Zero

bushmaster1313
April 11, 2012, 09:02 PM
How does the person who got hurt know what happened?

It could easily be that he leaned the gun against the truck with the safety off, it started to fall, and he grabbed it by the trigger causing it to go off.

Also, why would someone leave a chambered shotgun leaning against anything?

ngesar
April 11, 2012, 09:06 PM
All part of the anti-gun propaganda machine. Most of their "investigation" has been rebuked as misuse of statistics and half-truths. Last I heard, NOBODY has been able to recreate the mysterious "firing on its own" event, without tampering with the trigger mechanism into way out of design specs.

Besides, if people were following proper weapons handling procedures then it would just be a malfunction to send off and have fixed rather than a lynch mob.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was taught to never point a weapon, loaded or not at a person I did not intend to shoot

parker51
April 11, 2012, 09:29 PM
Thanks for the link, but I can't bring myself to watch anything put out by MSNBC, especially if it has to do with guns or politics. You know from the git it is going to be a strictly one sided anti-gun report (same as their political views). I've owned many Remington 700's over the past 40 years and have yet managed to get one to fire without pulling the trigger (this includes dropping one from a tree stand). It is regretful when anyone gets injured by an accidental or negligent discharge, but had the guns been handled safely then nobody would have gotten hurt. Not saying it couldn't happen, just make sure your gun is pointed in a safe direction in case it does.

dragon813gt
April 11, 2012, 09:38 PM
I watched the old report on Netflix the other day. There are videos of the 700s firing without touching the triggers. And Remington's own memos dating back to the 40s address the issue. They should have addressed it back then. I didn't think the old one was skewed in an anti-gun bias. Their own memos tell the story.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

Nugilum
April 11, 2012, 11:01 PM
Incredibly simple rule to live by: Don't Trust Yours or Anyone Else's Life To A Firearm Safety.

Rule #2.) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!

Double Naught Spy
April 11, 2012, 11:30 PM
Consider the source. Remember their "report" on the "side-saddle" gas tanks on older (1973-87) GM trucks? They rigged the trucks with explosives.

Okay, consider the source. NBC didn't do any testing. They reported information from actual events, court cases, and Remington's own memos. So if you consider the source and that source includes Remington, then considering the source means the problems are verified.

With that said, I thought this story was particularly weak. They shingled off the 700 story and all but one of their case studies was rather dubious in terms of verification. The fact that Remington has paid out so many millions of dollars is quite telling as well.

Old Dog Man
April 11, 2012, 11:51 PM
I have had some experience with the 700 triggers. Only the old ones that Rem. put a cosmiline type lube on. After many years the lube turned into a mollases like substance. In cold weather cond. it would glue the trigger together where it wouldn't work. Had some customers bring their old Rem's in and a good scrubbing out was all that it took to fix them. If they had read the instruction manual it said to clean before using, therefore not a trigger problem but a user problem. Saw the show and think it's B.S. Al

whalerman
April 11, 2012, 11:55 PM
NBC is the network that completely fabricated the 911 call that guy made to police during the recent shooting in Florida. NBC claimed it was an editing error. It was a crime. The network bosses should be arrested for falsely reporting an incident. They are not an honorable enterprise.

abq87120
April 11, 2012, 11:59 PM
NBC = Nothing But Crap

talldragon
April 12, 2012, 12:18 AM
It's airing now on the west coast. Lemme see it first, then I'll render an opinion :) .

Seems to me, Safety is first and foremost the responsibility of the user/handler.
Muzzle discipline is paramount. The most important "safety" is between your ears.

"Negligent handling can result in serious injury or death" is written in every owners manual for every firearm I own, regardless of who made it...........:scrutiny: .

talldragon
April 12, 2012, 01:10 AM
I had a great response composed.........then internet explorer decided to wig out on me and dumped 20 mins. worth of work (I hunt n peck, not type).:fire::cuss::banghead:

WardenWolf
April 12, 2012, 01:26 AM
Why oh why they don't just use a normal Mauser military safety design is beyond me. It doesn't take a genius to use the same mechanism but have a bent lever so it clears the scope, and still retain 2-position functionality.

tarosean
April 12, 2012, 01:40 AM
Ive got a 700 bdl laying out and a loaded 870 in my closet... maybe I should call the bomb squad to let me in my own home?

Jackal1
April 12, 2012, 02:20 AM
Remington's response regarding their 870 Shotgun:

http://www.respectremington.tv/pdf/Remington_NBC_Pre-Air_Release.pdf

http://www.respectremington.tv/#/home

Chris-bob
April 12, 2012, 02:37 AM
I watched the old report. After watching it with a few friends of mine, we all did our own research(not high tech, mind you) and decided better safe than sorry and swore off anything remington. Has nothing to do with anti-gun, and everything to do with anti-remington. Nothing different than those that refuse to own PCs, Hondas, Chevy, or whatever else brand you can think of(all examples of course).

Skyshot
April 12, 2012, 07:38 AM
There are probably more Remingtons afield than any other make, It would be interesting to see the accident rate per 1000 rifles compared to other manufacturers. I think NBC is on a witch hunt. What better than Remington to try to take down. All the people in the show did some foolish things that got themsleves or thier loved ones shot. We all know that dirt and neglect in the upkeep of firearms is a recipe for disaster.This is just a backdoor move for the goverment to step in and regulate manufacturing as NBC so stated in the beginning of the program. I just can't believe all the so called gun advocates who will swallow this, hook line and sinker. When Remington goes down who will be next? Do you think they're gonna stop there? I got news for you. Next it will be Ruger or Winchester or some other manufacturer. BTW, in 40 years of owning Remingtons, I've never had a problem, and of the many thousands of rifles my father sold that where Remingtons, I've never seen this type of problem. But I have heard of idiots that shoot themselves with just about every kind of gun made.

talldragon
April 12, 2012, 09:31 AM
After seeing the new story, it didn't seem terribly different from the one done by CNBC a few years ago.
Almost all the "victims" seem to have handled their weapons negligently. One gentleman even had his fingers blown off by resting his hand on the muzzle . Seriously? Muzzle discipline is paramount. The best "safety" is between your ears.
The story was waffling around the blame game, but sure did paint a negative image nonetheless.
I have never owned a Remington, but if I wasn't so broke right now, I would go buy one today. I've always wanted a an 870 pump :D .

jmr40
April 12, 2012, 09:45 AM
The problem with all Remington bolt actions is real. Anyone who refuses to believe so has their head buried in the sand.

The report on last nights program was factual and accurate, but left out some important details in my opinion. It should come as a surprise to no one that a gun could fire if dropped hard enough, and if it hits in a certain way. This is very common with many guns. Could the Remington fire control system be better?. Yes, and many other gun companies have better systems that can take much more abuse and still not fire.

The problem with Remington is that they have been caught in a decades old lie which they still refuse to admit. It makes anything they say questionable and has put them in the crosshairs.

Remington could do themselves a big favor as well as all gun owners. Just design a safe gun that does not fire unless you pull the trigger. It does not seem to be that difficult for most other manufacturers to do.

As stated in the program last night, there is currently no law where the government can regulate firearms. I'd like to keep it that way, but if Remington does not step up and make things right you can bet at some point there will be federal regulations that none of us want. Defending Remington at all costs is hurting us all. We, as gun owners and shooters should be demanding that they clean up their act for the good of us all.

rajb123
April 12, 2012, 10:11 AM
...the federal law specifically exempts firearms from legislation addressing "faulty" or "defective" products that are often required to be recalled, repaired, etc. , at the manufacturor's expense. In other words, under federal law, there is no such thing as a defective firearm.

Personnally, I would never own another Remington 700 with a Walker trigger.

Skyshot
April 12, 2012, 05:07 PM
The problem with all Remington bolt actions is real. Anyone who refuses to believe so has their head buried in the sand.

The report on last nights program was factual and accurate, but left out some important details in my opinion. It should come as a surprise to no one that a gun could fire if dropped hard enough, and if it hits in a certain way. This is very common with many guns. Could the Remington fire control system be better?. Yes, and many other gun companies have better systems that can take much more abuse and still not fire.

The problem with Remington is that they have been caught in a decades old lie which they still refuse to admit. It makes anything they say questionable and has put them in the crosshairs.

Remington could do themselves a big favor as well as all gun owners. Just design a safe gun that does not fire unless you pull the trigger. It does not seem to be that difficult for most other manufacturers to do.

As stated in the program last night, there is currently no law where the government can regulate firearms. I'd like to keep it that way, but if Remington does not step up and make things right you can bet at some point there will be federal regulations that none of us want. Defending Remington at all costs is hurting us all. We, as gun owners and shooters should be demanding that they clean up their act for the good of us all.
So you think Remington should replace every trigger made on every firearm sold since back in the forties. That would be real cost effective for a company.

Swichblade
April 12, 2012, 06:51 PM
Of course they have to say that his dreams of being a star football player were ruined.

Double Naught Spy
April 12, 2012, 09:47 PM
So you think Remington should replace every trigger made on every firearm sold since back in the forties. That would be real cost effective for a company.

Remington could have made the change to the 700 series gun for literally pennies per gun, but opted not to do so. They gambled with a crappy design that even its designer said needed to be modified. Remington blew off their chance to made the changes that would have been cost effective and have gotten caught publically with a design known to be problematic and millions paid out in lawsuits to cover them. If Remington was worried about being cost effective, then they should have made the change early on such that it was built into the manufacturing process. Retrofitting and retrofixing are always more expensive. Remington has made some bad choices.

Twmaster
April 12, 2012, 09:55 PM
It's cheaper for Remington to pay out in lawsuits than to have to fix millions of rifles.

loose noose
April 12, 2012, 10:31 PM
I've got a Remington 1100, 870, and a 700 BDL, and never had any of the firearms discharge unless I took the safety off and intentionally pulled the trigger. Never have any of my guns ever been pointed in the general direction of anything I did not intend to destroy. What a bunch of garbage from a TV network that keeps pulling at straws to destroy a gun manufacturer, and further regress our rights to own any firearm; thus total gun control! Which firearms company is next?

Skyshot
April 13, 2012, 07:23 AM
Remington could have made the change to the 700 series gun for literally pennies per gun, but opted not to do so. They gambled with a crappy design that even its designer said needed to be modified. Remington blew off their chance to made the changes that would have been cost effective and have gotten caught publically with a design known to be problematic and millions paid out in lawsuits to cover them. If Remington was worried about being cost effective, then they should have made the change early on such that it was built into the manufacturing process. Retrofitting and retrofixing are always more expensive. Remington has made some bad choices.
If Remington falls for this load of crap, Then the next target for the liberals will be that Smith and Wesson has no safties on thier revolvers and this has caused thousands of deaths that could have been prevented by just a simple correction in the design. You people who can't control the muzzle of a weapon, need to take up golf or bowling.

JustinJ
April 13, 2012, 09:17 AM
If Remington falls for this load of crap, Then the next target for the liberals will be that Smith and Wesson has no safties on thier revolvers and this has caused thousands of deaths that could have been prevented by just a simple correction in the design.

So you are saying that all the people who have sued were liberals? Huh. So you are saying that liberals hunt and shoot?!

The blatantly obvious difference is one weapon functions as intended. The other often doesnt.

Buck12
April 13, 2012, 12:17 PM
It's easier/more profitable to say your gun misfired than to admit you just shot someone/yourself.

Glad Remington is standing up to NBC on this.

nofishbob
April 13, 2012, 12:35 PM
I will try to cut through all the fog here:

1.-Does the Remington 700 design have a flaw that sometimes causes it to discharge without the trigger being pulled? YES, and this has been documented for decades, including internal Remington documents.

2.- Does "1" above absolve the owner of a Remington 700 from all culpability if they shoot someone when their 700 discharges without having the trigger pulled? NO!

3.- Should we, as firearms enthusiasts, circle the wagons and defend Remington and their self-admittedly faulty design because "Liberals" and "Antis" are criticizing them? NO.

I am not a fan of NBC OR Remington 700 rifles, but in the year 2012 we should not accept firearms that don't function as intended.

Bob

Skyshot
April 13, 2012, 01:13 PM
Again someone show me the accident rate per 1000 rifles as compared to other manufacturers. I don't think there will be an alarming rate of accidental discharges in Remingtons be it Model 700's or 870's or what ever in comparison to other rifles. My familiy has been selling firearms since 1969. I could not tell you how many model 700's and 870's have been sold, but I will say that Remingtons have out sold all other brands considerably in that time. Is it the best design, maybe not. Will a saftey fail on any firearm? Yes they will, because they are mechanical. Do they fail more on Remingtons? The media thinks so, But when you have 15 model 700's sold and 2 winchester model 70's and 1 ruger and 1 savage do the math. Chances are greater for an idiot to shoot someone with the Remington than any of the other brands just because of the numbers. In all those firearms sold I can think of NO customer complaining about thier Remington misfiring on its own. You people need to read the ten comandments of firearm safety. And then learn to practice those rules instead of throwing Remington under the bus. There plenty of other firearms I consider more unsafe than a Remington, do I think they should be sued or have the goverment clamp down on them. NO! I just won't buy that brand.

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