magazine dirt


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x_wrench
April 14, 2012, 08:43 AM
i notice that on all the training video's that they always drop the magazines in the dirt, time after time after time. while i certainly understand the drill, it does make me wonder if they pick these up and reuse them full of dirt, or if they have a full time person on staff doing nothing except cleaning thousands of magazines a day. i clean my mags after every shooting session. just with burnt powder residue i can feel the grit loading rounds. if i do happen to drop one in the dirt, i set it aside and do not use it the rest of the day. i suppose a gun will run with dirty mags, but would you really want all that dirt grinding away at your firearm? i would not!

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Averageman
April 14, 2012, 08:48 AM
Not everyone does, nor is it necassary.
Unlike the Big .Mil, you pay for your magazines and wont get a free resupply. I suggest you look at a drop pouch.

The Lone Haranguer
April 14, 2012, 01:19 PM
If realistic training is what you want, you have to get used to dropping your magazines in the dirt and maybe even dinging your gun up a little. There is an old saying, "You will fight as you have trained." If you train yourself to always carefully store your mags in a pouch or range bag or whatever, you will find yourself wanting to do this in a gunfight. :uhoh: Within reason, a military/police service handgun can handle a little dirt. And you can always perform your maintenance during a lunch break or something. Finally, not all of your practice really needs to be done this way. You can easily "dry"-practice speed reloading in your home and drop your mags on carpet or even a gym mat. (Be sure to follow all safety rules, and dummy rounds or so-called "training mags" are preferable.)

9mmepiphany
April 14, 2012, 02:50 PM
Now you know why folks advise you to run your magazines dry.

During a class or training, when I drop them in dirt or sand, I just shake them out and put them back in the rotation.

When they drop in mud, I just swish them out in the standing water and shake the water out

EddieNFL
April 14, 2012, 05:14 PM
What he said.

The Lone Haranguer
April 15, 2012, 09:38 AM
During a class or training, when I drop them in dirt or sand, I just shake them out and put them back in the rotation.
But not until after your drill or course of fire is over, or during a designated break, right?

There is a book I've referenced multiple times, Guns, Bullets and Gunfights by Jim Cirillo, a police gunfighter of some note. He wrote of "fighting as you have trained" (not his words) leading to some bizarre and dangerous situations, such as trying to pick up brass during or after the fight (because they were required to pick it up off the training grounds), or trying to stuff coins into revolver cylinders because in training they carried loose rounds in their pockets but their reloads in a belt pouch on duty. :eek: In some of my own self-training, I used to practice tossing revolver speed strips well clear when reloading and not looking where they went. This resulted in some of them being lost. :D

coalman
April 15, 2012, 03:26 PM
When I'm gaming I drop my mag where I drop my mag. Clean them as needed. I would not select a gun where I even worried about it given all that's available.

mljdeckard
April 15, 2012, 03:47 PM
Just realize, there are SOME drills where you DO NEED to let the mag fall free. (Like emergency reloads.) But even when you practice this stuff, you can use a ground cover to keep them out of the dirt. When you are at an intensive rifle course, do the best you can, clean them before and after, and USE GOOD MAGAZINES that you trust to run even if they get a little dirty.

But yes, for the vast majority of operations, use a drop pouch.

9mmepiphany
April 15, 2012, 03:49 PM
But not until after your drill or course of fire is over, or during a designated break, right?
Yes, sorry I wasn't more clear, I only recover my mags after a course/string of fire is completed.

The only exception is in IDPA competition, where the rules mandate that you not leave live ammo when moving between shooting positions. I understand the logic, but it makes about as much sense in the real world as not being able to reload in the open (when moving between, or to, cover positions)

EddieNFL
April 15, 2012, 04:05 PM
The only exception is in IDPA competition, where the rules mandate that you not leave live ammo when moving between shooting positions. I understand the logic, but it makes about as much sense in the real world as not being able to reload in the open (when moving between, or to, cover positions)

Thank USPSA.

bigfatdave
April 15, 2012, 04:15 PM
How much dirt gets in a magazine when it hits the ground anyway?

It isn't buried or ground into the dirt with your heel, it isn't getting sand kicked on top of it, and an empty magazine doesn't have that many openings anyway. (if it isn't empty, it is malfunctioning already, so who cares?)

Dump 'em and reload, do it on grass or a carpet scrap if concrete or dirt make you uncomfortable. Figuring out what to do with your empty magazine slows down retrieving your full magazine, which action might you need to do RIGHT NOW, and which action might matter some time later?

56hawk
April 15, 2012, 04:44 PM
When practicing or shooting USPSA, I carry a cloth rag in my shooting bag. Any mag that hits the ground I pop the floor plate off and run the rag through the mag. Only takes a few seconds to do. It doesn't take much sand in the magazine to start jamming a gun.

moxie
April 15, 2012, 06:33 PM
And when you do get around to cleaning your mags, Hoppe's # 9 only, wiped dry with a cotton cloth (old undershirt).

9mmepiphany
April 15, 2012, 06:36 PM
Thank USPSA.
I know, it was a major cultural shock.

I even cited examples that LEAs were standardizing on speed reloads in training...you can pick up your dropped mag if you have time (shooting over or behind cover)...but the Match Director wouldn't budge. "It's the way Bill Wilson wants it"

9mmepiphany
April 15, 2012, 06:39 PM
When practicing or shooting USPSA, I carry a cloth rag in my shooting bag. Any mag that hits the ground I pop the floor plate off and run the rag through the mag. Only takes a few seconds to do. It doesn't take much sand in the magazine to start jamming a gun.
Now you've peaked my interest.

Which pistol has magazines with magazine floorplates that pop off, but which won't run with some sand in them?

Blackstone
April 15, 2012, 08:07 PM
Wasn't it the Newhall shooting where the practice of carefully putting away your spent brass and not dumping it onto the ground was scrutinised? The officers wouldn't dare dump their brass on the lovely lawns of the academy whilst training, and that behaviour carried on during an actual shootout, leading to four officers killed.

56hawk
April 15, 2012, 10:17 PM
Now you've peaked my interest.

Which pistol has magazines with magazine floorplates that pop off, but which won't run with some sand in them?

STI 2011. You might be able to drop them a couple times, but they will start jamming pretty soon after that. Not worth it in a competition.

When I first started competing I was using a HK USP. I was dropping the mags in the dirt all the time and not thinking about it. Then it jammed on me in a match. When I took the floor plate off sand poured out of the mag. Since then I clean them every time.

9mmepiphany
April 16, 2012, 12:45 AM
STI 2011. You might be able to drop them a couple times, but they will start jamming pretty soon after that. Not worth it in a competition.

When I first started competing I was using a HK USP. I was dropping the mags in the dirt all the time and not thinking about it. Then it jammed on me in a match. When I took the floor plate off sand poured out of the mag. Since then I clean them every time.
Thank you

Interesting, I didn't realize they were running that tight. I just ran an STI Trojan through a 1000 round class at Gunsite, including going to the ground in a gully, and it ran fine...and I never cleaned it during the week

9mmepiphany
April 16, 2012, 01:01 AM
Wasn't it the Newhall shooting where the practice of carefully putting away your spent brass and not dumping it onto the ground was scrutinised? The officers wouldn't dare dump their brass on the lovely lawns of the academy whilst training, and that behaviour carried on during an actual shootout, leading to four officers killed.
Not that it wasn't a good teaching point and an attention getter in the academy, but...it didn't happen. An investigating officer in the case shared with me that there was no spent brass in the officer's pockets.

BTW: the story has a number of versions:
1. they put the brass in the pockets because they didn't like to police their brass after each string of fire
2. they looked for the brass can to put their brass in and not being able to fine it, put the brass in their pockets.

There isn't even any grass between the firing lines at the Calif. Highway Patrol Academy

56hawk
April 16, 2012, 02:02 AM
Thank you

Interesting, I didn't realize they were running that tight. I just ran an STI Trojan through a 1000 round class at Gunsite, including going to the ground in a gully, and it ran fine...and I never cleaned it during the week

Might be the difference between 9 round magazines and 26 round magazines.

9mmepiphany
April 16, 2012, 02:45 AM
Usually the single stacks are more finicky as there is more contact between rounds and the walls if the tube. There is a lot of open space, between the cartridges, in staggered mags for dirt/sand to fall through

ChCx2744
April 16, 2012, 02:46 AM
I'm going to be a realist. I also believe in training how you would fight. If you are going to train with a gun you carry, you need to expect that gun and it's magazine(s) to become a little dirty or scuffed up. In a real gun fight, when your mag goes dry and you go to reload a full mag into your gun, that empty mag has just become an expendable object. You have no time to worry about that mag any more. The only thing that matters right now is that full mag and the gun in your hand. Dropping an empty mag onto a hard surface from 4-5 feet every now and then isn't going to do too much damage. If it does, you should have extras, because unlike the gun itself, magazines need to be viewed as expendable objects.

Dr.Rob
April 16, 2012, 03:23 AM
An empty magazine is useless. It takes some 'doing' to get into that mindest.

Better to buy enough mags (so you won't feel bad about dinging a few) if you are going to do training like that.

I know pistol mags can be expensive but I have never worried about p-mags for my rifle. And I have dumped dirt out of mags that I picked up later.

I have also jammed a rifle with a mag full of dirt that I fumbled and dropped, it happens.

x_wrench
April 19, 2012, 07:49 AM
well, i hope i never get into a gunfight. but if i do, i KNOW that the empty mags are expendable. i would not even give them a second thought. but, one thing this tread has awakened me to, is that i do need to practice swapping mags in a hurry. something that i currently do not do. most likely because my "range" area, which is in the woods near my home, is all sand. i did, once, drop my pistol into mud. i realized at that moment, that i probably should see if it would run in that condition. so i simply gave it one good shake, and fired all 12 rounds out of it. it ran fine, but i could feel the grit in the slide area. so i stopped shooting it for the day. seeing if it will function, and wearing it out are two different things. i guess i will practice shooting out there, and practice changing mags at home.

moxie
April 19, 2012, 07:55 AM
Lay out an old king size sheet. If you place it right, it'll allow you to drop your mags on it and catch a lot of your brass.

BCRider
April 20, 2012, 01:18 AM
It rains so much around here that the ranges all have some sort of ground cover. We have to do that or the ranges would be a mud pond for half the year. Semi fine gravel is one popular option. One range got a deal on multiple truckloads of hog fuel (think coarse bark mulch) so they have this nice cushy feel on their ranges. Mind you over time that hog fuel is going to rot and be an even bigger issue.

So when we drop our mags they typically don't get dirt or sand in them to any big degree unless you find a bad spot.

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