[greyling22]

so I've been struggling a bit with leading in my 9mm. I'm pushing a pretty hard 124grn .356 lead bullet about 950 fps with liquid alox as lube. (bullet is dropping a true .356, and I slugged the bore out to .356 as well) I get some leading that is following the rifling down the barrel. According this http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

" Streaks, following the rifling: If the leading is seen to "follow the rifling" (i.e. streaks that twist down the barrel in close association with the rifling grooves), then this is a tell-tale sign that the bullet is cast too hard and failing to obturate. Obturation is usually thought of as a plastic deformation that swells the bullet's diameter, but it also leads to a back-filling of engraving defects along the trailing edge of the land. If the bullet is cast too hard to obturate, these defects will not be back-filled and gas-cutting will take place through these voids, following the trailing edge of that particular land. This effect can be mitigated somewhat through judicious choice of lube, but lube by itself can only do so much. The real solution here is to go with a softer bullet and a better lube."

you cast bullet wizards, does that seem right to you? if so, I'll try a softer bullet, double coat with alox, and push it a little faster. or some combination of the above. I'm using 4.4 grns of 3n37 as powder. I started out using red dot, but I was getting keyholing, so I went with a slower powder/harder bullet combo and the issue went away.

[918v]

Matching the bullet to the rifling does not stop leading. There is the freebore, and lead alloy hardness, and lube, and the power and its properties.

I suggest you chambercast your barrel, match the bullet to the freebore, ditch the alox and lube with Javalina, and use a softer alloy that will obturate the freebore upon ignition.

[murf]

is your bullet flat-based, or bevel-based?

increase the velocity (pressure) and see if that helps (within saami specs, of course).

good luck.

murf

[bds]

If the groove diameter of the barrel is .356", shouldn't your bullet be sized to .357".

I think bullet-to-barrel fit is key to reducing/eliminating leading followed by proper deformation of the bullet base (obturation) as the result of lead alloy hardness and amount of powder charge used. Perhaps size the bullet to .357"?


124grn .356 lead bullet about 950 fps with liquid alox as lube ... using 4.4 grns of 3n37 as powder.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162790&stc=1&d=1334515189

[Blue68f100]

Pushing it that hard you may have issues no matter what you do. But looking at the table BDS posted you may be too light. Some powder like TG when used with lead will always cause leading, it burns too HOT for lead bullets. Use a lower temp powder like WST and see if it helps.

Bullet fit to barrel is key on limiting leading. Your bullet size should be 0.001" over what your barrel slugs.

[bds]

3N37 is a slow burn rate powder on par with Silhouette, AutoComp, HS-6 and AA #5.

My experience with HS-6, WSF, AutoComp and other slower burn rate powders is that you need to be using high range load data before you have consistent chamber pressures. Although your loads chrono at 950 fps, you may not be generating enough chamber pressures to deform the bullet base (I am assuming you are casting wheel weights?) to obturate and especially with .356" sizing of the bullet for .356" barrel, you are probably getting gas cutting which explains the type of leading you are experiencing.


looking at the table BDS posted you may be too light.
I think European 9mm loads as Vihtavuori load data indicates tends to be loaded hotter on par with "American +P" loads (curious what the PSI measurements are of those loads as published velocities are out of 4" barrels :eek:). 4.4 gr of 3N37 just may not be producing enough initial chamber pressure pulse to expand the bullet base to seal the high pressure gas. I think proper sizing of .357" and a higher powder charge would decrease the leading and personally would use a faster burning powder if velocities are kept below 1000 fps. (I think 3N37 would be fine for use with jacketed bullet at jacketed velocities).

[snuffy]

bullet is dropping a true .356, and I slugged the bore out to .356 as well

What bullet is this^^?

It sounds like greyling is lubing/sizing an as-cast bullet. Since it drops @ .356, it can't be sized BIGGER! Also, there's nothing wrong with LLA,(Lee Liquid Alox). If the bullet was sized correctly, AND it was pushed hard with a faster burn rate powder, it would shoot without leading.

A faster burn rate powder would give the base of the bullet a hard kick, starting the obturation process.

Adding a bit of tin to the alloy might increase the as-cast diameter, as well as making it a bit harder. Then, sizing to .357 might allow the use of the slower burn rate powder.

[bds]

greyling22, are you casting the bullets yourself or are you using commercial cast bullets?

If you are using commercial cast bullets, you can order them sized at .357".

[armoredman]

Interesting. My wheel weight Lee 124 bullets drop at .360 and I size them down to .356 with a Lee push through sizer, lube either hard lube with a homemade alox/beeswax composition or Lee Liquid Alox. Pushed with Accurate Arms #7 I get very little leading in any pistol they are used it, even when Accurate Arms revised their data and one load now proves to be +P!
Well, a cast 9mm slug at an average 1164 FPS is a bit warm...
Do you have other powders to try? Burn rate might cause some of this, as mentioned above.

[Walkalong]

Pushing a 124 Gr 9MM bullet to 950 FPS is not pushing it "hard", which is probably why 918v suggested a softer alloy. The other option is to push it harder and see if the leading stops. Plus you need to size to at least .357 if the bore slugs at .356.

[greyling22]

I just loaded up batches of 20 that get progressively hotter and see what that does. I'll also cast a few softer bullets. I'm using a mixture of mostly wheel weights with a little linotype tossed in, then water quenched.

this is the mold. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/340779/lee-6-cavity-bullet-mold-tl356-124-tc-9mm-luger-38-super-380-acp-356-diameter-124-grain-tumble-lube-truncated-cone

I also tried a few .358 diameter 125 grn bullets, same lead alloy and powder charge. they were leading too, though not quite as bad. so I sort of ruled out undersized bullets. sort of.

I'm almost out of the 3n37, and I have w231, titegroup, n320, blue dot, #5, and a few others. I tend to buy whatever other people are getting rid of or had when they died.

[918v]

I can tell you that 3.7-4.1 grains of 231 under a .358" 125gr TC would not lead in a Beretta. It had a .359" throat. I think your load is too light pressurewise to obturate the base of the bullet. Go with a faster powder.

[bds]

Same here. I am using .356" sized 18 BHN Missouri 125 RN and 3.8 - 4.2 gr charges won't lead in various pistols/barrels.

Even faster burning Promo at 4.0 gr with the same bullet won't lead the barrels.

[bds]

I'm almost out of the 3n37, and I have w231, titegroup, n320, blue dot, #5, and a few others. I tend to buy whatever other people are getting rid of or had when they died.
Another thought.

Do you know how old some of those powders are when you get them?

If stored tightly sealed under proper temperatures, I tend to consider 10 years a good timeframe to use up my powders (most of time, I use them up within 3-5 years).

[Hondo 60]

Had my 9mil out to the range the other day.
After 47 rd of 124gr LRN, (with 4.1 gr of Tite Group) it suddenly refused to chamber the last 3 rounds.

When I got home I could see the leading using one of those cheap bore lights.
A scrub with Hoppes # 9 & another few turns with a mop wrapped by a copper strand from a chorboy & it was clean as a whistle.
Those last 3 rounds chambered just fine.

I think I'm gonna stick with plated/jacketed in that gun.

[Walkalong]

mostly wheel weights with a little linotype tossed in, then water quenched. That's a pretty hard bullet. Much harder than you need for the pressure/velocity you shot them at.

[greyling22]

so general consensus is that the article was right, my bullet is too hard?

[bds]

I think so, and probably not enough powder charge or too slow of powder or combination of all, including the sizing of the bullet.

My Taurus PT145's barrel is oversized like around .456"+. When I shot 18 BHN Missouri 200 gr SWC (IDP #1), it smeared leading around the leade and leaded down the rifling. I shot it with different powders and charges and it didn't matter and accuracy sucked bad.

When I used the softer 12 BHN 200 gr SWC (Bullseye #1), .452" sized bullet base deformed enough to seal with the oversized barrel with different powders/charges like 5.0 gr of W231/HP-38 and even light 4.0 gr charge of Promo to produce very accurate shot groups and no leading.

[earplug]

Are you using a Lee Factory crimp die? I and other people have had problems like yours due to the bullet getting re-sized by this type of die. It irons out any case bulge but squeezes the bullet undersized at the same time.
If not, I'd stop using the Linotype and go soft.

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm almost out of the 3n37, and I have w231, titegroup, n320, blue dot, #5, and a few others. I tend to buy whatever other people are getting rid of or had when they died.
I use W231 for 124/125gr lead bullet for my 9mm ammo and it works very well for me. A charge weight of between 4.4gr and 4.8gr will do very well. I make light ammo with the 4.4gr load and it cycles well for me.

BUT, I would soften up that alloy to some were near 12 BHN if I were you or your leading problem will continue IMO.

[Cherokee]

Bullet too hard for that velocity. Kick up the power. Size 357 would probably be better for your barrel if its really 356. If casting your own, soften up the alloy some.

[greyling22]

Well, I cranked up the velocity some today, and still had leading issues. I'm going to change powders, cast a softer bullet, and double lube the bullets and see what happens.

earplug, I was using the FCD, but I stopped a few months ago. nothing changed as far as leading or accuracy.

Bds, there is no telling how old some of this powder is. when was the last time you heard of trap 14? red dot sold in little metal cube cans? the 3n37 is fairly new though. it came from a different old dead guy.

Interestingly enough, I am using the same alloy in my 357, using a 125grn .358 bullet over some trap 14 (somewhere in between green and blue dot on the burn rate) and I get very little leading, and that stayed near the rear of the barrel.

[greyling22]

So I tried a few more loads today. Since it seemed like I was using too slow a powder, hard a bullet, and too light a load, I tried going the other direction. I was using a pretty soft bullet, (can almost scratch it with a fingernail) and HS-6 and some acc #5. I was trying to stick to the start loads and not load light. I did not heavily lube with alox. I did not use the lee FCD.

4.5 grains of HS6 shot ok, but was leading.
5 grns hs6 shot ok, but was leading.
5.5 grns started keyholing, and leading the whole length of the barrel.

5.2 through 5.6 grains of #5 was keyholing and leading.

Did I go too soft with my bullet this time? or do I need to back my velocities down further? This is getting frustrating. It's the only blasted gun I can't get a load going for.

[gahunter12]

Have you tried WST or maybe W231? I have been loading lead in 40s&w and 45acp with WST and W231 for 40s&w, and 18BHN cast bullets without any leading. All my bullets are measuring .001 over my barrel diameter. I tried pushing my .40 loads to the max lead data with out any signs of leading.

[Walkalong]

I do not think you went too soft, but you are still using medium slow powders loaded down. Try some faster powder to get pressure up and still keep velocity down.

WST is a good suggestion, or W-231 as well. It should work.

[greyling22]

I've got some n320. think that might work?

[Walkalong]

I would think so. Good stuff.

[DUCKNDAWG]

It wont matter if you shoot dead soft or rock hard lead, if your bore is .356 then your cast boolit needs to be 1-2 thousanths bigger than the bore. Your getting leading from the boolit bouncing down your barrel as opposed to fitting the barrel. go to http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php so much information there

[popper]

50/50 WW/Pb + Sn @ .357 min. W231. alox, recluse, felix or peanut butter lube.

[JohnM]

Popper, you got some 231 data, recipes?

[popper]

Don't reload for 9 anymore. Goto cast boolits site.

[dragon813gt]

Your problem is bullet fit. It's undersized. As others have said it needs to 1 to 2 thousandths larger than the slug.

I suggest you read this as it explains a lot: www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm


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[greyling22]

dragon, any suggestions on why I was still leading with a .358 bullet from my 357 pile? I tried a bigger bullet fairly early on.

[ArchAngelCD]

Popper, you got some 231 data, recipes?
With 124/125gr lead bullet I load as low as 4.0gr W231 but you can easily go up to 4.4gr if you need to. With 124gr FMJ or JHP bullets I load 4.6gr W231 and have gone up to 4.8gr with heavier slides.

You should always verify any load data you get on the Internet because mistakes can and will happen. This data can be verified on the Hodgdon Load Data Site (http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp).

[greyling22]

Update:
I reslugged the bore and as I rotated the bullet through the calipers, the bore slugged out at .355 except for one part that was .356. (that might have been an error on my part though. it was only my second bore slugging)

different version of same mold: lee 124 grn 6 cavity mold that is dropping .358 at the base very consistently. The lube rings measure less. around .355.

lead: water quenched wheel weights. ingot BHN 14.

Lube: lee alox tumble lube. coated pretty well.

My most recent, and lowest power loads yet were:
2.9grn of titegroup (925fps on the chrono) - leading and 2 keyhole out of 20
3.4grn of w231 (950 fpson chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20
5.25grn HS-6 (1025 on the chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20

Leading was fairly evenly distributed along the whole length of the barrel. They all cycled the action, but I can't go much lighter and still retain function.

Thinking maybe I was using a light load under too hard a bullet and failing to get obduration, I tried 3.7grn titegroup with a 80% lead 20% wheel weight and got 10 out of 10 keyhole. 3.7grn using a 50/50 gave me 4 of 10 keyhole.

I tried some .356 purchased lead bullets with a hard lube ring (advertised BHN 15) that did not keyhole, nor lead as much, but still left noticeable leading after 20 rounds of each:
3.8 grn titegroup
4grn w231
5.6grn HS-6
5.5grn #5
most of the leading was back by the chamber.

I pulled a loaded round apart and it was still measuring .358 at the base. the lube rings are measuring less. around .355. Cartridge OAL is 1.08.

(I have a post over on castboolits similar to this one trying to widen the pool of brilliant ideas, so if you frequent both sites, yes this is familiar post http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157586 they seem to think I am undersizing my bullets with my expander plug, but I tried their 38spl plug trick and it didn't really help any)

[Certaindeaf]

Is your sprue plate flat and square to the blocks?

[popper]

You said your bore was .35/.356. Is that the max OD of the slug or in the grooves? Your Cb should be .001/2 over the max OD of the slug. Assuming your Cb is sized right, fps has to do with keyholing - speed them up. Did you try the 45/45/10 lube, applied lightly? Alox leaves a residue that can be mistaken for light leading. BHN 14 is still pretty hard. Try about 9 or so.

[918v]

Stop using Titegroup with lead bullets. I have a feeling your gun has a .359"+ throat diameter that even a .358" bullet won't seal.

[rcmodel]

I agree it might be worth trying a different powder.

Titegroup is known to burn hotter then a lot of powders and cause leading when other powders don't.

The other thing you might try to do is recover some fired bullets.

See if the base shows any signs of melting, or if there is gas cutting past the side of the bullet.

The first would indicate hot burning powder, while the second would indicate a bullet size or hardness problem.

rc

[greyling22]

.355/356 was the outer diameter of the slug. The widest part.

All right, I'll try and recover a bullet. It will be a while though, I get sent out to northern new mexico for work and couldn't bring my gear. Titegroup wan't my first choice, but I was trying to try something fast (titegroup), something slow-ish(hs-6), and something in the middle. (231) Is there a best powder? something for low power loads that runs at low pressure and temp? I've been thinking about buying a pound of wsf.

As far as I can tell my sprue plate is good. It's cutting square and I don't see any light between it and the blocks.

[918v]

It sounds like you don't understand whas happening inside the chamber. If your bullet does not seal the throat when the round is chambered, gas will cut the bullet upon ignition. This means you are at the mercy of the throat dimensions. It means you cannot use a bullet with a .355" front band diameter. When powder ignites, the gas travels at 7000 FPS. This happens instantly. Before the bullet even starts moving, the gas is already passing it in the throat, unless the front band is a tight fit.

You said your bullet's front band is .355". Guess what? The throat is at least .357" if not larger. You need a bigger bullet. Figure out what your throat measures and then look for an appropriate slug.

[rcmodel]

Is there a best powder? something for low power loads that runs at low pressure and temp?Alliant Bullseye was used very successfully driving lead bullet target and duty factory loads at low to medium velocity for about 100 years now.

Maybe try that.

Other then that, I think your water quenched 14 BNH bullets are too hard for the low velocity you are trying for.

rc

[918v]

231 is fine for what he is doing.

[greyling22]

well I tried to use a softer bullet and that was a terrible disaster. most all of them keyholed and it fouled the barrel horribly.

918v, the rear of the bullet measured out .358 at the base, and the base of the cone up front measured around .357, it was only the tumble lube rings in between those 2 that measured small.

[918v]

But it is the front band that seals the throat and keeps the gas from cutting on the bullet. By the time the bullet hits the rifling, the rear band has already grown under pressure. Remember, the bullet is a billion times heavier than the gas pushing it. The front band needs to be no more than .0005" smaller than the throat.

[rcmodel]

What gun are you shooting?

Some barrels just lead, and there is no rime or reason for why they lead and another barrel doesn't.

Sometimes a good lapping & polish with JB Bore paste will stop or slow it down.

Sometimes it doesn't.

rc

[greyling22]

aha, that is what I did not know. the front band is what seals the throat.

RC, I'm shooting a witness elite match. it's advertised as a polygonal barrel, but it is not. I'm trying to find another 9mm to try my loads on to see if it is that gun or the ammo. if it's the gun, I'm thinking about trying to dress up one of those surplus hi-powers.

[Walkalong]

water quenched 14 BNH bulletsIf they are water quenched, I would not be surprised if they harder than that.

[greyling22]

true. that's why I said the ingot came out at 14. I imagine the bullet is more of a 15-16, which should be strong enough for a low pressure 9 load, though some of the hardness/pressure charts indicate that what I really should have is a harder bullet.

[ArchAngelCD]

You can push a bullet that's 15-16 BHN to a lot higher pressures and velocities than you are. You could easily shoot them to 1200 fps without any leading under normal circumstances.

W231 is a great powder for the 9mm for both plinking and more. As for the key-holing, did you check the velocities of those rounds? You keep saying soft bullets are key-holing but bullet hardness has nothing to do with that, velocity does.

One thing, are you loose hanging the paper you're shooting or is it put up against a backer? Many time if the paper is hanging free it will move before the bullet pushes all the way through giving the appearance of key-holing.

I agree you should not use Titegroup with lead bullets. I use mostly W231 and sometimes Longshot in all my 9mm ammo...

[greyling22]

paper is stapled against a backer. And the more frequently they keyhole, the worse the leading is inside the barrel and the worse accuracy becomes. they're stripping out inside the barrel for some reason.

[bds]

I just reread through this thread and the thread at castboolits and here are my thoughts/suggestions:

1. Factory loads shot accurate without keyholing so the barrel crown should be OK.


I tried some .356 purchased lead bullets with a hard lube ring (advertised BHN 15) that did not keyhole, nor lead as much
2. Since you did not get keyholing, have you considered trying .357" sized commercial lead bullets to decrease the leading?


I get some leading that is following the rifling down the barrel. According this http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

"Streaks, following the rifling: If the leading is seen to "follow the rifling" (i.e. streaks that twist down the barrel in close association with the rifling grooves), then this is a tell-tale sign that the bullet is cast too hard and failing to obturate."

... water quenched wheel weights. ingot BHN 14
3. How about trying some bullets that are not water quenched? Perhaps with 3.6-4.0 gr of W231 you have on hand. As you posted, how old is that W231? Does it still have a "clean" solvent smell?


4. As suggested on the castboolits thread, Lee tumble lube (TL) bullet mold and lube material may be suspect. Have you considered using a different bullet mold?

[Certaindeaf]

I suspect your bullets are too hard and or undersize. Back in the day, I used to shoot Speer swaged 125's in 9mm at max loads. No leading and they were accurate. The slugs were dead soft.

[blarby]

Like to point out that keyholing can be an indicator of a bullet that isn't completely round, tumbling as the gas blow by tips it leaving the bbl.

A bullet that isn't completely round would also allow some significant gas cutting, regardless of the base diameter...if it obturates and softens, but that .358 is immediately followed by a ring of say, .355...the gas would blow right through. Obturation is good, but it needs cold hard lead to hold that hot squishy lead back at the base of the bullet.

Often, home made alloys can be a little light on the tin content, or it can be unevenly distributed if not fluxed correctly. No tin in your cast = bullets that dont fill out the driving bands completely, as it cools too fast in the mold to reach the very ends.

Your wheel weight alloy combo, water quenched, is sufficiently hard to be pushed at any velocity you can achieve in a 9mm, as a few have pointed out.

LLA is just fine as a lube...also as many have pointed out.

With these things in mind, we're kinda down to two real possible problems, both of which are easy to check, and solve :

1. your throat is large, as many have pointed out is possible. If this is the case, you are going to need a custom mold...but you need to cast it in order to find out... I would consider doing the casting of it before ordering a 100+ dollar mold.

2. Your bullets aren't round enough. Easy fix : Get a sizer. As cast bullets are great... if the size is just right, and your alloy is perfect to allow the bullets to drop as close to perfection as your skill will allow. Hard to do for us casting Newbs, sometimes. A lee sizer is a great tool for assuring that your bullets are the perfect diameter.

Think they are falling the perfect diameter ? Put a few of your perfect bullets through a sizer, and watch the little lube catcher rings squish and become shiny on one side, and stay the same on the other.... or get shiny all around, or not size at all ( undersized as cast ) Even the best casters I know size their bullets for this reason. "Perfect" as cast bullets are a true rarity, the lee sizer is a great way to make "almost perfect" into "perfect" every time.

Given that the sizer is by far the cheapest of the solutions, and that you should have one anyway...I'd say try that route first.

But hey, thats just me ! And I don't know squat about casting....other than its a pain to sit in front of a 700 degree furnace on a hot sunny day.

[Certaindeaf]

blarby!

Hey, all very good points but I think he said they fall "as cast" to .355?
Were that the case, one could of course lap the mold bigger etc and then go from there as you said.

[bds]

I thought the OP posted the bullets were dropping .357"-.358" from the mold.

Good suggestion on running them through the sizer. Maybe the bullets are being sized as they enter the leade? :D

Trying the bullets without water quenching should be easy and quick with no added cost.

[Certaindeaf]

Ah, I hear you.. he should be all set then.. I'd a tried them as cast right off the bat but that's just me though.. I shoot .360 through a couple 9's just to save time.. they shoot just fine.

[ReloaderEd]

cast a few more bullets: lube with valve grinding compound heavy grit. Load and fire about two to six rounds. Clean the barrel throughly after each shot. . You shoud notice as you run a patch throuh it it will get polished and smoother. That has always taken care of all my leading problems including the pure lead 357 Remington ammo in my Smith and Wesson model 19. This doesn't hurt the gun one bit. Use alox 235 bullet lube and your in business.

[Vern Humphrey]

Bigger bullet, faster powder, softer alloy.

[greyling22]

When I get back in town I'll try several of the things mentioned here.

-some purchased .357 and .358 hard lubed bullets.
-some of my 124grn bullets sized to .357 and .357
-stick with hs-6 and w321
-size a few of my .360's down to .359 and see how they do.

I might even cast a few out of pure linotype just to completely rule out "to soft"

[greyling22]

ok, I haven't had a chance to do much casting, or tinkering yet, but I did re-slug my barrel, and it came out .355. (.349 when the calipers were both in the grooves.)

Finally I pulled one of my bullets and measured it. .357 at the base, .354 in the lube ring area, and .358 up at the bottom of the cone. I pulled a second one, and it measured similarly, but it wasn't perfectly round. It was a little larger by about 2 thousandths in one direction than the other. (molds not lightly closed I guess)

I also shot some of my 14 bhn ingot (before casting and water quenching) reloads in a springlield xd, and it leaded badly as well, so I'm thinking it's the load, not the gun. (3.4grn win 231 950 fps, give or take) col: 1.089"

Pics of the pulled bullet, the slug, and a loaded round included.

[murf]

calipers are not accurate for barrel grove measurements. even so, most 9mm barrels will be .355, or .356 inches for groove diameter. your .358" bullet is way too big for your barrel. get a bullet sized to .355 or .356 inches and try again.

murf

[918v]

Sizing a bullet smaller will not stop leading.

[dragon813gt]

If the barrel measures .356 then a .358 bullet is not to big as long it chambers. Now if it's .355 it might be to big. You want at least .001 over bore diameter. Sizing to bore diameter is going to lead to leading.

Are you sizing them? You should not have the much variation in size. If that's how they're coming out of the mold then it's bad. Personally I hate the TL molds. I tumble lube but I use a regular lube groove mold.


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[918v]

greyling22:

What is the diameter of the freebore in your test weapon? Is it .360" or something like that?

[Yarddog]

As stated, run thruogh sizer & fire lap Should help alot. Out of round will keyhole. All good info. Let us know how you are progressing ; ) PS Best of luck, My Lee 356-124 drops them at 360. I size with 358 Lee sizer for all my 9s & a few 357 mags.
Y/D

[greyling22]

918v, I don't know how big it is, but i'ts pretty decent sized. When I loaded it with some .359/.360 257 bullets they still chambered most of the time. the xd had a tighter chamber.

Yarddog, you think size them to .357? .358? I'll try most anything at this point.

[Yarddog]

Yes, Have you Sized them at all ? They might be out of round. As far as the FPS is not all that fast for a 124gr. Is the mold a TL124356 ? Curious as thats what I shoot. both in 356 & 358 & both cast em bigger. Lee sizers are
or was $15.99. Not Bad ; )
Y/D

[918v]

If your freebore is that big then you need to leave them as cast and cast them soft. They need to obturate the freebore too. I shoot .359" bullets in my 9.

[greyling22]

anything bigger than .358 starts to have chambering difficulties.
I've got sizers, but if I can avoid using them I do so. lazy that way I guess.
Casting soft caused more leading and a lot of keyholing. as did jacking up velocities in an attempt to ensure obduration.
Yes, it is a tl124356 mold.

[918v]

I use Missouri's Cowboy-2 12BHN and run them at 1050 FPS without a trace of leading. They a little over .358" and fit my freebore pretty well.

[greyling22]

I found a local commercial caster and decided to give his bullets a try. I tried a sampling of his stuff sized to .357 (110, 115, 125, and 147 grn) http://www.mastercraftbullets.com/semiauto.html

I loaded with start loads of WSF from the hogdon website. They worked pretty well. Tighter groups, no keyholing, and significantly reduced leading. My gun has shallow rifling, so I thought the extra bearing surface of the 147's might help the bullet grab the rifling better, but I didn't notice any leading difference between the tested bullets.

So I am encouraged. I have made some forward progress! I guess I should try some .358 sized bullets and see if I can get the last of the leading to go away? And I could reduce the loads a little below starting to see if I can reduce pressures.

[918v]

Take one of your bullets. Put it on something hard. Smack the nose with a hammer. That will bump the bullet up in diameter. Load it into a case. Try to chamber it. It most likely won't. So pound it into the chamber. Then knock it out with a rod. Measure the imprint of the freebore and get back to us.

[greyling22]

I've got some 357 bullets that drop .361, I can load one of those into a case (I guess load it long? do I crimp?) and then drive it into the barrel. just like the picture? deeper? shallower? how far in do I drive it? where am I measuring once it's been popped back out? http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/res45/2011-10-27_215303.jpg

[x_wrench]

for me, bullet size is normally .001 to .003" OVER bore size, depending on the gun. and go soft on the bullet rather than hard if you are getting leading in the bore, especially true on pistols. the soft lead will deform to fill any gaps easier, hard cast will not deform especially with lower psi pistol rounds. the L.L.A. is good enough lube for pistols. not so much on higher speed rifle bullets though.

[Certaindeaf]

This cartridge has way too much crimp. It'd be fine for a revolver. Just "iron out" the bell.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=170857&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1346448094

[918v]

G:

Don't crimp, just remove the bell. Pound it in until you feel the case mouth bottom out against the chamber shoulder. Then knock it out from the muzzle end.

You'll see a measurable ledge, prolly .358/.359".

[ROGER4314]

I've been reloading and casting for many years but always learn new things in this exciting field. I bought the Lee Hardness test kit and it showed me something new. I always equated velocity and leading from cast bullets. The Lee kit looks at it differently.

The Lee kit compares the ball impression diameter with Brinnell hardness and maximum allowable pressure in PSI for that bullet material. The velocity will still increase as pressure increases but the Lee kit looks at it from a different perspective.

Using that information gets easier as the Lee and Lyman reloading manuals give pressure in PSI or CUP for most of their loads so you know what that particular lead alloy will stand without failure/leading. That's pretty slick!

Flash

[Vern Humphrey]

Greyling22 -- the answer to that is, "Ask the gun." Try different seating depths until you find the one that shoots best and is reliable in your gun.

As a general rule, though, most guns shoot better with the bullet seated as near the lede as possible.

[floydster]

I have three 9mm handguns.
My alloy formula for all three, two CZ's and an EMP.
50/50 WW and pure lead with a 12" strip of 40/60 solder, water dropped.
All my 9mm bullets are sized to .357, lubed with LLA, two heavy coats with very little leading, what little there is, one swipe with a bore brush and Chore Boy and it's gone, leaving a nice shiney bore, accuracy never falls off due to any leading.