Why don't gun companies sell guns on their websites?


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BehindTheIronCurtain
April 15, 2012, 07:18 PM
Is it a legal thing? It would be awesome to buy a glock direct from glock cut out the middle man and have it delivered to my ffl. Why don't any of them (that I've seen, and I've been to a lot of websites) ever sell wholesale on their own sites?

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Rembrandt
April 15, 2012, 07:21 PM
Distributor and dealer network protection.......cut them out and it would be the death of your business.

As a manufacturer, do you want to sell 500 guns to one distributor or deal with 500 individual customers, sales tax for 50 different states and plus the local laws and regulations?

Carl N. Brown
April 15, 2012, 07:25 PM
Taking orders, shipping guns, is a lot of work for a manufacturer. They would rather ship a truck or train-car load to a wholesale distributor, who then parcels guns out to FFL dealers. The FFL dealers then deal with selling guns to the public (or local police) in accordance with federal, state and local laws on firearms sales.

For a manufacturer to ship guns directly to local FFLs on individual orders, would require them to have a large staff handling a relatively small part of their production.

hardluk1
April 15, 2012, 07:27 PM
Instead over shipping orders to a limited number of wholesaler companies they should sell to 4 million peoplea year through there local ffl, one at a time. At retail prices!!! . Bet a prices would go up across the industry too. Extra handeling with paperwork. Haveing to be sure ever dealer is how they say they are ever year. I'll buy from a fine LGS at 10% over cost now and he allways has 400 to 500 firearms in stock. So I can touch it before buying it. I would pass on the direct buying.

Shoobee
April 15, 2012, 08:21 PM
The answer is "Lee Harvey Oswald."

Google him and see.

wally
April 15, 2012, 08:22 PM
Probably the same reason GM, Ford, Toyota, etc. don't sell cars to you directly.

oneounceload
April 15, 2012, 08:26 PM
Taking orders, shipping guns, is a lot of work for a manufacturer. They would rather ship a truck or train-car load to a wholesale distributor, who then parcels guns out to FFL dealers. The FFL dealers then deal with selling guns to the public (or local police) in accordance with federal, state and local laws on firearms sales.

For a manufacturer to ship guns directly to local FFLs on individual orders, would require them to have a large staff handling a relatively small part of their production.

This....... +1

The same reason most manufacturers of any retail goods do not sell to end users

writerinmo
April 15, 2012, 09:10 PM
I'm about to shut down my individual sales on some sight tools that I make and only sell through a few commercial buyers that I have for much the same reason. It's a lot easier for my to track sales to five buyers a month rather than 50, cheaper to ship in bulk than singly, and saves me loads of time every day inputting and processing orders and shipments.

Sam1911
April 15, 2012, 09:17 PM
The answer is "Lee Harvey Oswald."

Google him and see.

I think you missed the point of the question.

The OP wasn't asking why the FFL dealer system (and the rest of GCA '68) exists -- why we have to have a federally licensed dealer transfer the gun into our state for us. Note, he said, "cut out the middleman and have it delivered to my FFL."

He's asking why the manufacturer's won't sell the gun to an individual person, for transfer through their local dealer. The large manufacturers only sell guns in large quantities and through a network of distributors who then sell to the dealers. He's asking why that network of middlemen is required.

gilfo
April 15, 2012, 09:32 PM
MSRP Wouldn't that come into play somehow?

drsfmd
April 15, 2012, 09:43 PM
Because that leaves no profit for the FFL... you guys complain bitterly about FFL's wanting $25 for a transfer! Do you know how many transfers an FFL has to make a $25 each to make a living? After taxes, heat and lights, insurance, etc. an FFL working all alone would need to do 4,000 transfers a year (that's about 11 guns a day, every day, 365 days a year) to GROSS $100,000... add an actual bricks and mortar store selling ammo and accessories and an employee or two and that that's not even close to enough to keep the doors open.

If your idea were to come to fruition, it would put most gun shops out of business as they simply couldn't turn a profit.

When you read the "what do you want in a gunshop" thread, it's clear that you guys want the world and don't want to pay for it. It's also clear that virtually none of you have ever run a business or made a payroll.

Larry Ashcraft
April 15, 2012, 11:06 PM
Selling direct to the end owner is suicide for the manufacturer.

Think about it for a bit.

I was going to post a long educational rant, but I'll just leave it at that. Suffice to say, I've been in retail long enough to know that bypassing your customer in hopes of getting his customer is just a plain bad idea.

Jorg Nysgerrig
April 15, 2012, 11:13 PM
It's all about the channel. The FFL requirement limits the channel options greatly, but there's certainly more to it than that.

crazy-mp
April 15, 2012, 11:23 PM
In the suppressor world many of the manufacturers will sell directly to the public, you pay full MSRP and shipping, if you go to your local dealer they can beat MSRP, but some choose not too. Same reason as posted above they would rather sell one distributor 500 suppressors than sell 2 to this dealer 3 to another and 1 here.

mnrivrat
April 15, 2012, 11:36 PM
My first thoughts follow along the same lines as what has been said here, however the future is loaded with changes and different circumstance.

Gun sales via internet for example is relatively new, and continues to grow rapidly. I would not completely rule out changes in how items (including guns) are marketed in the future. That includes factory direct sales as being possible in my opinion.

One thing for sure seems to stand out in marketing today - small operations are disappearing.

shuvelrider
April 16, 2012, 10:23 AM
I'd rather keep my LGS going as a sales outlet for a variety of guns, not to mention the trade ins that I can get a good deal on. Those old gems do show up, so I like to have the LGS around for a source.

RCArms.com
April 16, 2012, 11:06 AM
I think you missed the point of the question.

The OP wasn't asking why the FFL dealer system (and the rest of GCA '68) exists -- why we have to have a federally licensed dealer transfer the gun into our state for us. Note, he said, "cut out the middleman and have it delivered to my FFL."

He's asking why the manufacturer's won't sell the gun to an individual person, for transfer through their local dealer. The large manufacturers only sell guns in large quantities and through a network of distributors who then sell to the dealers. He's asking why that network of middlemen is required.
Because without that network of middlemen, you would not be able to take legal possession of your factory ordered firearm.

They exist as long as their business remains profitable. If the profit shrinks, their days in business are limited.

Sam1911
April 16, 2012, 11:52 AM
Because without that network of middlemen, you would not be able to take legal possession of your factory ordered firearm.


Arrgh. The OP acknoledged that in his post: "for delivery to my FFL."

There is no legal requirement to have the manufacturer sell only to a distributor who then sells to the dealers, or even for the manufacturer to sell the gun to a dealer at all. Only that the transfer be handled by an FFL dealer.

I think the question has been answered very clearly now, but it ISN'T because the law forces it to be that way. The law does not.

RCArms.com
April 16, 2012, 12:11 PM
Arrgh. The OP acknoledged that in his post: "for delivery to my FFL."

There is no legal requirement to have the manufacturer sell only to a distributor who then sells to the dealers, or even for the manufacturer to sell the gun to a dealer at all. Only that the transfer be handled by an FFL dealer.

I think the question has been answered very clearly now, but it ISN'T because the law forces it to be that way. The law does not.
The assumption is that "for delivery to my FFL" remains a viable option.

We all know that there is no legal requirement for the manufacturer to sell exclusively to distributors, but they all choose to have that type of distribution system with different pricing tiers for purchase volume. They have been operating like this for years and I don't see it likely to change anytime in the near future.

If the day comes when the manufactuers move from a distributor basis to a retail direct sales model, it will present the question of what to do when your vendor becomes your competetior. That will open up a whole different set of issues that are not explored on this thread.

Larry Ashcraft
April 16, 2012, 12:23 PM
If the day comes when the manufactuers move from a distributor basis to a retail direct sales model, it will present the question of what to do when your vendor becomes your competetior. That will open up a whole different set of issues that are not explored on this thread.
Exactly.

It has happened over the years in my industry (awards) and always with a bad outcome for the manufacturer. The gun distributors would likely (and with good reason) boycott the manufacturers who are competing with them.

I've seen it happen several times over the years. Sure, the manufacturers would like to get retail prices for their products, but they would be giving up their main customers, the distributors.

Sam1911
April 16, 2012, 12:56 PM
The gun distributors would likely (and with good reason) boycott the manufacturers who are competing with them.

Do you feel that's a realistic possibility or strategy? Just saying (and I agree it is unlikely for the near future) Glock, Ruger, S&W, Colt, Remington, Mossberg, or another big-name manufacturer decided to go to retail sales, would the distributors stand a chance of improving their situation by boycotting that manufacturer?

It's not like there are hundreds of arms manufacturers and/or that all of them are putting out roughly equal products. In the public's eye, guns are the ultimate non-generic item. Brand is everything. If a distributor boycotts them, the dealers (and public) will simply go around him to get the product they want. If the distributor pushes his dealers to boycott as well, the one lonely dealer who refuses to boycott becomes busier than he's ever been before because everyone who wants a Colt, or wants a S&W M&P, or whatever, comes to his door. A Pepsi sure may not be as good as a Coke, but if a Coke's not available, most folks will drink a Pepsi. If someone wants an M&P 9 times out of 10, they will travel a long road to get one -- not settle for the Glock that's sitting on the dealer's shelf.

If we were talking about ballpoint pens or car tires or even brands of soda I'd say such pressure would be effective. But guns are perceived as far more iconic and unique than that (and than they truly are, to be honest). I'm fairly certain that S&W or some other major entity like that could absolutely dictate terms to their distributors without fear of repercussions.

To my way of thinking, previous posters are right in that the manufacturers use a distributor network because they WANT to. It outsources a lot of burden and cost in the dealing and distributing of their product.

Larry Ashcraft
April 16, 2012, 01:39 PM
To my way of thinking, previous posters are right in that the manufacturers use a distributor network because they WANT to.
True also. Why deal with hundreds of thousands of customers when you can deal with a few dozen and sell the same amount of product.

The trophy manufacturers who tried to go retail found out that it didn't work, even though their potential markup would be way higher. Not as true for the firearms industry, I suppose, since the markups are relatively small.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
April 16, 2012, 01:40 PM
I went to visit the Barrett Industries in Murfreesboro,TN. One of the gentlemen that was with my group asked that question and it was a lady name Vicky that answered that, it was mainly liability. They would have to fill out the paperwork and check all of the individuals that purchased one of their weapons. They said it would require a larger staff dedicated to public sales. I guess it would look way worse if the manufacturer sold a weapon directly to someone that missused it.

RCArms.com
April 16, 2012, 01:59 PM
I went to visit the Barrett Industries in Murfreesboro,TN. One of the gentlemen that was with my group asked that question and it was a lady name Vicky that answered that, it was mainly liability. They would have to fill out the paperwork and check all of the individuals that purchased one of their weapons. They said it would require a larger staff dedicated to public sales. I guess it would look way worse if the manufacturer sold a weapon directly to someone that missused it.
The 4473 paperwork and background check would be handled by the Local FFL that would handle the transaction to the retail customer.

So the additional paperwork and liability angle is not an issue. What they would see is a ton more exposure to bad debt from Credit Card charge backs.

As for a Boycott, I don't see that happening, but if a manufacturer started selling retail direct and expected a local FFL to handle the transfer, I'd expect that they would charge a much higher transfer fee on this manufacturer's items than their standard rate.

I'd also bet the savings for the customer would be pretty small by the time the buyer factored in the purchase price from manufacturer, shipping on an individual purchase, and the transfer fee when compared to a local retail purchase.

happygeek
April 16, 2012, 05:54 PM
Because that leaves no profit for the FFL... you guys complain bitterly about FFL's wanting $25 for a transfer! Do you know how many transfers an FFL has to make a $25 each to make a living? After taxes, heat and lights, insurance, etc. an FFL working all alone would need to do 4,000 transfers a year (that's about 11 guns a day, every day, 365 days a year) to GROSS $100,000... add an actual bricks and mortar store selling ammo and accessories and an employee or two and that that's not even close to enough to keep the doors open.

If your idea were to come to fruition, it would put most gun shops out of business as they simply couldn't turn a profit.


I don't see that at all. As it stands the buyer can order from Buds, AIM, whereever, it ships to a FFL, and they pay a transfer. If they could buy straight from Sig instead of AIM they'd order from Sig, it'd ship to a FFL, and they'd pay a transfer. Not sure how that'd be any different for the 01 FFL.

It'd definitely change things for Sig & AIM in the example, but thanks to the 68 GCA the 01 FFL will always be in the picture getting his cut.

x_wrench
April 16, 2012, 07:03 PM
WHERE THE HECK WOULD WE HANG OUT? at best buy? computer world? NO THANKS!

crazy-mp
April 16, 2012, 11:21 PM
WHERE THE HECK WOULD WE HANG OUT? at best buy? computer world? NO THANKS!

Careful what you say you might anger the "Buds or bust" customers out there, hopefully someday Wal-Mart will start doing FFL transfers and get rid of all those pesky local gun stores all they do is try to get people to buy what's in stock anyways.

I wish some of the big companies WOULD sell guns to the public then you could see some of these companies true colors.

wacki
April 16, 2012, 11:36 PM
With alcohol it's often crony capitalism. Distributors pay the politicians and politicians protect the distributors. Chicago public radio had a pretty good episode on that.

Are there any laws like that for firearm distribution? Or can anyone become a distributor?

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 12:36 AM
With alcohol it's often crony capitalism. Distributors pay the politicians and politicians protect the distributors. Chicago public radio had a pretty good episode on that.

Are there any laws like that for firearm distribution? Or can anyone become a distributor?
If you hold a FFL01 and have enough capital to make a minimum initial purchase amount (typically between $10k and $25k buy in) with the manufacturer, you can become a distributor only if the manufacturer wants your business. Some manufacturers have better distributor programs than others and there are others that I refuse to do any business with whatsoever.

happygeek
April 17, 2012, 12:40 AM
WHERE THE HECK WOULD WE HANG OUT? at best buy? computer world? NO THANKS!


People go to the gun store just to hang out?

x_wrench
April 17, 2012, 07:05 AM
best place in town to meet others with yiour intrests and like mindset. but you do have to buy SOMETHING once in a while. the place DOES have bills to pay.

Flopsweat
April 17, 2012, 07:19 AM
I didn't see anyone directly address the concept of specialization. Find what you're good at and focus on doing it the best you can. Manufacturers are good at manufacturing. Distributors are good at distributing. Same thing in most restaurants: The chef doesn't take your order and bring you your meal, because it wouldn't be efficient and he's better at cooking than waiting. The waiter or waitress will do it, because they're better at not acting like a chef. :evil:

happygeek
April 17, 2012, 09:18 AM
best place in town to meet others with yiour intrests and like mindset. but you do have to buy SOMETHING once in a while. the place DOES have bills to pay.


You mean besides the gun club range? They let me hang out and shoot for $90 a year, flat rate.

I just find the this sentiment that 'you should support the LGS' odd. I hang out on computer forums and I've never seen that sentiment, ditto for the weightlifting forums, though I haven't spent all that much time on those. For now it's a moot point since the 68 GCA forces you to pay extra to a 01 FFL.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 10:33 AM
You mean besides the gun club range? They let me hang out and shoot for $90 a year, flat rate.

I just find the this sentiment that 'you should support the LGS' odd. I hang out on computer forums and I've never seen that sentiment, ditto for the weightlifting forums, though I haven't spent all that much time on those. For now it's a moot point since the 68 GCA forces you to pay extra to a 01 FFL.
The 68 GCA doesn't force or compell you to pay anyone, however, if you want to purchase a firearm via interstate commerce, you do need to fill out the appropriate paperwork and the FFL01 is one place that can be legally accomplished.

If going through a FFL01 is not your cup of tea, you can purchase from a private party which does not require a FFL01 to complete.

Sam1911
April 17, 2012, 10:38 AM
If going through a FFL01 is not your cup of tea, you can purchase from a private party which does not require a FFL01 to complete.


True, but to be fair, you aren't able to buy a NEW firearm from the manufacturer that way. Even if you don't go through an FFL01, you're still going through an FFL07.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 10:56 AM
True, but to be fair, you aren't able to buy a NEW firearm from the manufacturer that way. Even if you don't go through an FFL01, you're still going through an FFL07.
Correct, No-one other than a person or company holding the appropriate licensure can purchase (edit: take direct delivery) new firearms from a Manufacturer.

However, a private party can purchase a NEW firearm from another private party with no FFL involvement. It's just not as conveinent as heading over to a Gun Store or Gander Mountain and buying what you want.

Double Naught Spy
April 17, 2012, 12:44 PM
Distributor and dealer network protection.......cut them out and it would be the death of your business.

Lots of companies, and even a few gun companies, sell directly to end users. This does not cut out the distributor and dealer networks when the company sells at full retail and vendors can sell at that price or lower.

If the day comes when the manufactuers move from a distributor basis to a retail direct sales model, it will present the question of what to do when your vendor becomes your competetior. That will open up a whole different set of issues that are not explored on this thread.

Wow, I think you got that completely backwards. Numerous gun manufacturers first started selling by selling direct to the customer and then later got into distributorships and dealerships.

It has happened over the years in my industry (awards) and always with a bad outcome for the manufacturer. The gun distributors would likely (and with good reason) boycott the manufacturers who are competing with them.

It may have happened in your industry, but I have a feeling there were circumstances you aren't disclosing or don't know that caused this to happen. I have seen vendors and distributors drop product lines when the manufacturer demanded that a certain price to maintained per given product such that the vendors/distributors were in direct competition with the manufacturer. When they are allowed to sell the product for less than what the manufacturers sells it for, then the manufacturers really isn't in competition with the vendor.

AJMBLAZER
April 17, 2012, 01:13 PM
Same reason you can't buy a Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan, etc at the factory.

Go over to the Toyota factory in Georgetown, KY with a shoebox full of cash looking to buy a Camry and they will gladly give you directions to the nearest Toyota dealership.

It's pretty rare that LARGE manufacturers of anything sell direct to the customer or even in "onesy, twosey" amounts. Just takes too much time to deal with individual customer accounts, individual orders for relatively few items, and the assorted difficulties those bring up.

I used to work in shipping and receiving in a plant that made specialty blasting and cutting nozzles. We shipped orders of one and two but only to customers who were either distributors or were large end users that would probably the following week order hundreds of nozzles. We shipped world wide and I can't imagine the workload if we had allowed every Tom, Dick, and Harry around the world to order ONE abrasive nozzle when they needed it.

The way Colt and others do it now they probably have a shipping staff of less than ten that drive forklifts, read manifests, box things up, and load trucks/trains/whatever. Couple probably handle the paperwork and shipping scheduling and international/customs stuff.
If they were to sell to individuals in small quantities suddenly they'd need far more people to properly see to it that each individual order got dealt with, filled out, and shipped correctly.
Far more cost, far more man hours, and far more supplies/consumables needed.

roadchoad
April 17, 2012, 01:43 PM
I don't think the FFL requirements have anything to do with how the sales network is set up. Prior to needing a background check, you still would have had a hard time getting a gun directly from the manufacturer. The distributor network is not just limited to guns, it is pretty much across the board with consumer products. It is just how distribution channels work, and it is partly due to the specialization of labor.

Remington makes guns and sells to distributors.

Davidson's sells and distributes guns to shops.

Bud's sell's guns to customers.

Those are all very different business models. If Remington would make more money selling guns directly to customers, they'd be doing it already.

oneounceload
April 17, 2012, 02:05 PM
It has happened over the years in my industry (awards) and always with a bad outcome for the manufacturer. The gun distributors would likely (and with good reason) boycott the manufacturers who are competing with them.


Unless the manufacturer only sold direct at full MSRP to individuals and still sold wholesale to the distributors; but most do not want the paperwork/labor hassles for the one or two item sales.

Even retail outlets like Midway charge you a fee if your order isn't higher than a certain amount - why? because it costs them a certain amount of $ to process and ship an order. The scale is larger with the manufacturers

happygeek
April 17, 2012, 09:35 PM
Correct, No-one other than a person or company holding the appropriate licensure can purchase new firearms from a Manufacturer.

However, a private party can purchase a NEW firearm from another private party with no FFL involvement. It's just not as conveinent as heading over to a Gun Store or Gander Mountain and buying what you want.


?

I have no desire to go to Gander Mountain. I can buy a CZ 82 from J&G Sales and have it shipped straight to my door (which I did recently, but from Wideners); if I want to buy a CZ 83 from J&G Sales though I have to have it shipped to a 01 FFL, and pay extra in the process. It would appear I have the 68 GCA to thank for that.

I really have no desire to buy straight from the manufacturer, and I certainly understand why they don't generally sell directly to consumers. I'd just like to be able to have any title I firearm shipped straight to me from the distributor. IMHO there should be a 'buying only/hobbyist/whatever you want to call it' FFL for that.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 10:14 PM
?

I have no desire to go to Gander Mountain. I can buy a CZ 82 from J&G Sales and have it shipped straight to my door (which I did recently, but from Wideners); if I want to buy a CZ 83 from J&G Sales though I have to have it shipped to a 01 FFL, and pay extra in the process. It would appear I have the 68 GCA to thank for that.

I really have no desire to buy straight from the manufacturer, and I certainly understand why they don't generally sell directly to consumers. I'd just like to be able to have any title I firearm shipped straight to me from the distributor. IMHO there should be a 'buying only/hobbyist/whatever you want to call it' FFL for that.
It's not entirely honest to make a statement like

"I can buy a CZ82 from J&G sales and have is shipped strait to my door...if I want to buy a CZ 83 from J&G sales though I have to have is shipped to a 01 FFL, and pay extra in the process. It would appear I have the 68 GCA ti thank for that"

without clarifying that you obviously hold a FFL03 which is a Federal Firearms License. The CZ82 is classified by the ATF as a Curio & Relic firearm and as such it falls into the terms of your Federal Firearms License. The CZ83 is still a Title 1 Firearm and that falls outside the terms of your licensure.

If you want that CZ83 shipped to your door, apply for a FFL01 Dealers license and when approved and issued, your good to go.

It's all about having the proper license and not about a purchase privilege/buying only/hobbyist or any other warm fuzzy term.

happygeek
April 17, 2012, 10:26 PM
Uh yeah, I'm well aware of what a 01 FFL is. I don't want go into the business of selling guns, I just want to order them. That's why I said


IMHO there should be a 'buying only/hobbyist/whatever you want to call it' FFL for that.


It'd be very, very similar to the 03, but it'd allow you to do the same with any title I firearm. I don't expect to see such a thing anytime soon (I can't imagine gun manufacturers or distributors care, 01 FFLs wouldn't want it, only some consumers would lobby for it), but it'd be nice and I don't see a logical reason not to.

DammitBoy
April 17, 2012, 10:48 PM
Lots of companies, and even a few gun companies, sell directly to end users.

Yeah, I've ordered guns directly from the manufacturer and had them delivered to my FFL from DPMS and Fusion Firearms.

Double Naught Spy
April 17, 2012, 11:22 PM
Yeah, I've ordered guns directly from the manufacturer and had them delivered to my FFL from DPMS and Fusion Firearms.

Yep, Wilson Combat, STI, Rock River, and LMT all will as well. Up until around what, 1999, you could order directly from Colt and then Colt posted that they would no longer be selling to the public and this resulted in years of rumors that cold would only be making guns for the the police and military and nothing for the general population because paranoid Colt owners did not understand that "not selling to the public" meant direct sales to the public and that Colt was still making guns (wholesale) for retail sale by their distributors/vendors.

Unless the manufacturer only sold direct at full MSRP to individuals and still sold wholesale to the distributors; but most do not want the paperwork/labor hassles for the one or two item sales.

And I also think this is the real issue for most. Sometimes it seems that the bigger the company, the less contact they actually want with the end user, but some still embrace those that purchase their products.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 11:40 PM
Uh yeah, I'm well aware of what a 01 FFL is. I don't want go into the business of selling guns, I just want to order them. That's why I said



It'd be very, very similar to the 03, but it'd allow you to do the same with any title I firearm. I don't expect to see such a thing anytime soon (I can't imagine gun manufacturers or distributors care, 01 FFLs wouldn't want it, only some consumers would lobby for it), but it'd be nice and I don't see a logical reason not to.
That would definitely be a problem with acquiring a FFL 01 Dealers license.

Unfortunately it is what is it and you are rather stuck with the process that has been in place since 1968.

It is fun to remember that once upon a time you could mail order a M1928 Thompson from Auto Ordnance though.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 11:43 PM
Yeah, I've ordered guns directly from the manufacturer and had them delivered to my FFL from DPMS and Fusion Firearms.
Did you inquire what it would cost to have your FFL order the same item and see what their quote was?

Just curious what kind of savings you were able to secure by purchasing direct.

The sales tax "savings" does not apply as I'm sure that you claimed that properly on your state sales and use tax when you filed your income taxes.

tryshoot
April 18, 2012, 12:04 AM
$20 dollers is right for any transfer. More than that is too much.

RCArms.com
April 18, 2012, 12:20 AM
$20 dollers is right for any transfer. More than that is too much.
I was inquiring on the purchase direct price as opposed to having the dealer purchase it and mark it up.

That's a purchase, not a transfer.

The transfer fee would be over and above what the retail customer paid say DPMS for his rifle plus shipping.

As to the amount of a transfer fee, that is a business question for the individual FFL to set as a price for their services. I've heard as low as free (crazy low) and as high as $100 (crazy high) per serial number.

Don

happygeek
April 18, 2012, 09:16 AM
Unfortunately it is what is it and you are rather stuck with the process that has been in place since 1968.

It is fun to remember that once upon a time you could mail order a M1928 Thompson from Auto Ordnance though.


Very true. I'm hoping that after the NRA and SAF take care of more pressing matters like the Sullivan Law and 'may issue' in other states that they'll get around to going after the 68 GCA. Or that a supposedly 2A friendly President like GWB would appoint a BATFE director who declares almost every gun to be a curio.

It'd also be pretty awesome if North Korea fell. I'd imagine they have more than a few SKSs, Makarovs, Tokarovs, etc. that are over 50 years old sitting in warehouses. Wild eyed optimism, I know.

Double Naught Spy
April 18, 2012, 09:17 AM
WHERE THE HECK WOULD WE HANG OUT? at best buy? computer world? NO THANKS!

People go to the gun store just to hang out?

Yeah, the sometimes do in local gun shops. Some of the worst service I have ever gotten in gun shops has been in local gun shops where I dared to inconvenience the guy behind the counter by trying to get help while he was holding court with his cronies.

Just guessing, but if you are one of the cronies, your transfer fees are probably reduced compared to what is charged to the non-cronie regular folks.

DammitBoy
April 18, 2012, 10:14 AM
Did you inquire what it would cost to have your FFL order the same item and see what their quote was?

Just curious what kind of savings you were able to secure by purchasing direct.

The sales tax "savings" does not apply as I'm sure that you claimed that properly on your state sales and use tax when you filed your income taxes.

I custom ordered my firearms in both those cases through my FFL. He charges me $50 over his cost for the sale and there is no transfer fee. I pay state sales tax when I purchase a firearm from an FFL.

I wasn't making a custom order to secure any kind of "savings", I was making a custom order to get exactly what I wanted - straight from the manufacturer.

RCArms.com
April 18, 2012, 12:32 PM
I custom ordered my firearms in both those cases through my FFL. He charges me $50 over his cost for the sale and there is no transfer fee. I pay state sales tax when I purchase a firearm from an FFL.

I wasn't making a custom order to secure any kind of "savings", I was making a custom order to get exactly what I wanted - straight from the manufacturer.
so your FFL ordered it and paid for it, then charged you $50 over cost.

Makes sense, but that is not the same as you purchasing directly from manufacturer, making payment direct to manufacturer, and then transferring it through a local FFL which is what I understood you to have done.

My mistake as I must have mis-understood you previous post.

Don

DammitBoy
April 18, 2012, 09:45 PM
so your FFL ordered it and paid for it, then charged you $50 over cost.

Makes sense, but that is not the same as you purchasing directly from manufacturer, making payment direct to manufacturer, and then transferring it through a local FFL which is what I understood you to have done.

My mistake as I must have mis-understood you previous post.

Don

Since I'm not an FFL, I have no choice but to order through an FFL - but I can go around the middleman, the distributor. My point was you can buy from a manufacturer without using a distributor.

I contacted the manufacturer directly. I set up my custom-ordered firearm to my specifications that no distributor would have in stock. Of course I had to go through my FFL to have it shipped.

Salty1
April 20, 2012, 09:43 AM
If the manufacturers sold to the public then they would be forced to sell at MSRP, look at Rock River or Les Baer as an example. The general public wants to get a deal on what they buy and there is no value in buying from the manufacturer over a dealer who discounts the products. Also buting through a dealer may remove a level or two of potential liability from the anti's lawsuits. When the manufacturers produce guns they typically ship them out very quickly to either distributors or dealers resulting in little completed inventory on hand to have to sell which results in immediate cash flow. Inventory sitting on shelves makes no money for the business and having inventory to sell to a very select group of buyers who see bragging rights in buying direct does not make good business sense...

happygeek
April 20, 2012, 10:31 AM
When I posted earlier I was too busy thinking of the annoyance and added expense thanks to the GCA and completely forgot that I have bought straight from the manufacturer before.

CMMG sells uppers, parts, magazines, complete rifles, etc. on their website and I got my dedicated 22LR upper from them.

crazy-mp
April 21, 2012, 02:21 AM
$20 dollers is right for any transfer. More than that is too much.

Depends on the transfer: (My prices)
Title I: 15.00
Title II: 50.00

I have seen other dealers charge as much as 200.00 for a Title II transfer and as much as 50.00 for a Title I transfer.

mgkdrgn
April 21, 2012, 09:15 PM
for the same reason Ford doesn't sell cars, and Kellogg doesn't sell corn flakes ... they ain't in the retail business.

exavid
April 22, 2012, 12:00 AM
Some gun companies do sell to consumers. I ordered my Stag model 4L from Stag which shipped it to me thought my local gunshop.

Sam1911
April 22, 2012, 09:26 AM
Some gun companies do sell to consumers.

This is certainly true. The larger companies generally don't (unless you're dealing with a specialty/performance shop which is run by the manufacturer) and many of the smaller companies do.

Anyone want to try and put together a list of who does and who doesn't?

Balrog
April 22, 2012, 10:09 AM
DSArms (FAL manufacturer) will sell direct to you.

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