This widow needs help about consignment problem.


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Erica M.
April 16, 2012, 11:03 PM
:cuss:

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TurtlePhish
April 16, 2012, 11:05 PM
If the buyer paid in full already they should have given you your part of the money. Sounds like the shop is screwing around with you. I see no reason for them to hold the money until he picks up the gun.

Sorry for your loss.

Welcome to THR.

Erica M.
April 16, 2012, 11:08 PM
:cuss:

Rail Driver
April 16, 2012, 11:11 PM
I'd explain to the gun shop owner that if you don't get your money PDQ, you'll be consulting an attorney, the BATFE and the police. The way it stands now, the gun shop has essentially stolen your pistol. The police and ATF don't take kindly to things like that.

(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer (just a law student), and I don't know where you are or what the laws in your jurisdiction are so my advice is worth what you paid for it.)

ApacheCoTodd
April 16, 2012, 11:12 PM
What county are you in? Trust me on this... The county attorney's office is your friend on issues, fraud.
The Sheriff's dept is your friend on issues, theft.

I want to be VERY clear on this. I am NOT saying that this is or is necessarily bordering on theft but theft is the perspective you want them (the shop) to understand that you may be seeing this from.

You had an item, they took the item, they sold the item, they received full payment for the item, you have no money for the item. All the weird consignment particulars aside - what do you call that scenario if those weird particulars are not a part of a contract between you and them?

Fremmer
April 16, 2012, 11:22 PM
The lawyer will cost more than the gun is worth.
give the shop 7 days to complete the transfer or you get the gun back and walk.
You might be able to salvage the deal yet.

Teachable moment : raildriver, do you see the problem with this kind of estate asset?

hogshead
April 16, 2012, 11:28 PM
Sounds like BS to me. They have the money and the gun. They should give you your money. You know they wouldn't return his money to him especially if he has already done the nics check. I would tell them I wanted my money or my gun. If not I was contacting the law and the atf.

dprice3844444
April 16, 2012, 11:30 PM
go get a cop.got any local news crews you can call and show up with them?or contact your local paper

wannabeagunsmith
April 16, 2012, 11:30 PM
Tell those fools to give you your money!! After all they put you through I would say they owe you nothing short of a gold plated Desert Eagle.

ApacheCoTodd
April 16, 2012, 11:32 PM
You don't need a lawyer to get the County Attorney involved. Their consumer affairs representative (or whatever the particular office calls it there) will usually initiate an inquiry by phone if you present them with a letter containing the facts.

Erica M.
April 16, 2012, 11:33 PM
:cuss:

Rail Driver
April 16, 2012, 11:39 PM
The lawyer will cost more than the gun is worth.
give the shop 7 days to complete the transfer or you get the gun back and walk.
You might be able to salvage the deal yet.

Teachable moment : raildriver, do you see the problem with this kind of estate asset?
Actually it shouldn't be too difficult to find a lawyer that will give a free consultation. Either way, she needn't actually consult the lawyer. In many cases the mere threat of involving a lawyer tends to "grease the wheels" so to speak.

*edit to add, generally when a person wins a lawsuit, legal fees are attached to any settlement negating your argument. If the OP really wants to be litigious and finds a real shark of a lawyer, she could conceivably receive compensation for "special damages to include pain and suffering". - I said I was a law student, didn't say how much legal experience I have ;)

Personally if it were me in the OP's shoes, I'd salt the deal. The OP will get more out of the pistol selling it privately than consigning it through a shop anyway, though it is a bit more of a hassle and at this point is counterproductive.

Fremmer
April 16, 2012, 11:43 PM
So call them and tell them the guy has 7 days to pick up the gun or the deal is done and they can refund the money whenever he bothers to show up. He hasn't done the check yet, correct? So ask them to call him and get it done and over with or you'll be back for the gun.

Fremmer
April 16, 2012, 11:48 PM
Lol well she can always get a consult, then. The county attorney or small claims may be next if they keep screwing around. Good luck to the op, what a mess.

garymc
April 17, 2012, 12:01 AM
So they're claiming they still have the gun? Have you actually laid eyes on it? Be nice and tell them you need to look at it one last time for sentimental reasons. I'd be willing to bet they can't produce the gun.

ApacheCoTodd
April 17, 2012, 12:18 AM
Another thing EricaM - should this get outa hand as they sometimes can. Be sure you continue as you have and never mention the name of the shop on the internet.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 12:25 AM
Was there any kind of consignment agreement contract that you signed when you dropped the firearm off for consignment sale.

Detailed payment information should be contained in that contract as well, specifically hoe long after the date of sale that the shop has to make payment to the consignee.

In our case, our timeline for payment is 30 days after date of sale to ensure that the firearm made it to its destination and is past our return period.

Don

RhinoDefense
April 17, 2012, 12:35 AM
Rail Driver, this is not an ATF issue. It's a business issue. ATF enforces NFA and GCA, neither of which have been violated according to the OP's statement.

Having done business with many California FFLs in the past, I'm curious to know whom the dealer is in this situation.

Rail Driver
April 17, 2012, 12:51 AM
Rail Driver, this is not an ATF issue. It's a business issue. ATF enforces NFA and GCA, neither of which have been violated according to the OP's statement.

Having done business with many California FFLs in the past, I'm curious to know whom the dealer is in this situation.

True, the ATF enforces NFA and GCA, but they're also the licensing body for the dealer's FFL. Violations of the law are grounds for revoking an FFL. Stealing a gun is a violation of the law. I'm sure the ATF would like to be notified in the event that a licensee is found to be violating the law. Obviously there is going to be a set of steps that the OP must go through, and notifying the ATF of the (alleged) violation, assuming the dealer does actually refuse to cooperate with the OP and doesn't pay her, would be a logical step AFTER dealing with the police/state's attorney/etc. Dealers have lost their licenses for much less.

russ69
April 17, 2012, 01:26 AM
I hope the OP is still around. Welcome to California gun laws. It doesn't look like any of the responses know Ca state laws. The gun shop has to deliver the gun to the new buyer, they have a reasonable time to do that. The DROS is good for 30 days. They have to make an effort to deliver the gun, two 30 day periods is not that unusual. Once they give up on the new buyer, you will have to DROS the gun back to you and wait 10 days. If for some reason you are not allowed to take possession the gun is forfeited to the cops.
It's a messed up system that just eats up the calender but I don't think they are pulling a fast one. They are trying to close the paperwork before they are stuck with no gun and no money. You can thank Sacramento for this mess.

mnrivrat
April 17, 2012, 01:54 AM
I waited the ten days and then I was told that all though he has paid in full to the gun shop they cannot release the funds to me until he picks it up and they give him 30 days to pick it up.

I don't think they are pulling a fast one. They are trying to close the paperwork before they are stuck with no gun and no money.

If they have the money as stated they need to pay the seller. If their policy is to wait until the transaction is completed in totality before paying the seller, than that should have been made clear at the time of consignment. That's why a written consignment is important document - with no such documant you will have to wait. A lesson learned .

The only legal recourse I see is to look into your states consignment laws .

RhinoDefense
April 17, 2012, 02:17 AM
True, the ATF enforces NFA and GCA, but they're also the licensing body for the dealer's FFL. Violations of the law are grounds for revoking an FFL.
First the FFL has to be proven in a court of law that a violation of law has occurred. Then there is a hearing that deals with the suspension or revocation of the FFL. Then there is generally an appeal hearing. This legal process takes a few months in a "slam dunk" situation.

Stealing a gun is a violation of the law.
There is no theft. The customer engaged in a private business contract agreement. It was not stolen. The FFL is waiting until the buyer receives the firearm to forward money to the owner for the transaction, the transaction doesn't end with receipt of payment from the buyer, it ends when the buyer pays for the item and takes possession of it. Only one of these has occurred. In order to be a stolen item, the item must be taken from the owner by forcible means and intended to permanently deprive said owner of their property or money. This is not the case. The FFL intends to pay the owner of the gun their share when it is paid for and taken into possession by the buyer of said gun.

Where's the intent to permanently deprive the property owner of their property or money? It's nonexistent. People think everything happens at the snap of their fingers, but that's not how life works.

I'm sure the ATF would like to be notified in the event that a licensee is found to be violating the law. Obviously there is going to be a set of steps that the OP must go through, and notifying the ATF of the (alleged) violation, assuming the dealer does actually refuse to cooperate with the OP and doesn't pay her, would be a logical step AFTER dealing with the police/state's attorney/etc.
Again, the dealer is waiting until the item is picked up by the buyer. That's not illegal and not grounds for revocation of the FFL. Again, the ATF doesn't care and won't give a hoot about this situation. It not their jurisdiction and they will default it to local LE, who may give a hoot.

Dealers have lost their licenses for much less.
They have kept it for much more. Your point?

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 07:38 AM
:cuss:

bikerdoc
April 17, 2012, 07:52 AM
I cant give Cali advice as my Gun store is in Va. We pay consignment The fri following the sale. Stir up some dust my dear lady.

danez71
April 17, 2012, 08:59 AM
Erica

I think I found your answer... but I'm NOT a lawyer.

If the buyer hasnt picked it up then then the dealer has to cancel the sale and start over.

The following is from the CA Attorney Generals web page for FAQ's for Firearms Dealers.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs

Question 23

Is there a maximum time frame after submission of the DROS information during which a firearms dealer may release a firearm?
Yes. If a firearm purchaser does not take physical possession of the firearm within 30 days of submission of the DROS information, the dealer must cancel the sale and, if the firearm was a handgun, send the DOJ a cancellation form for that transaction. If the purchaser still wants to take possession of the firearm, the entire DROS process must be completed including payment of DROS fees.
(PC section 12071(b))



I made bold the key part as I read it.

It says the dealer must cancel the sale and send the DOJ a cancellation form.

At that time you should be able to pull the item from consignment since the sale was cancelled unless your consignment contract with the dealer says he has XX number of days before you can pull it. If thats the case, try raising the price so it wont sell just to pull it from him if you want.


Try printing out the FAQ from the website so you get the CA Attorney Generals Logo etc on it and bring it into the dealer and show him.

If he squawks... tell him you're going to have to go directly to the Attorney General.

Good Luck and I'm sorry for your loss.

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 09:06 AM
:cuss:

danez71
April 17, 2012, 09:29 AM
Erica, read my post #26.

You may have been typing yours when I posted mine and didnt see it.

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 09:55 AM
:cuss:

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 11:53 AM
:cuss:

lonehunter
April 17, 2012, 12:55 PM
This may have been done already, but has the gun shop actually called the purchaser and told him he needs to pick up the gun for the deal to be complete and the seller to be paid?

The purchaser may not be aware that he is causing a problem by not picking the gun up.

Jeff

coalman
April 17, 2012, 01:05 PM
I have general philosophies dealing in/with business. It's reasonable for the store to follow their policy. This does not mean the policy is reasonable. I'd become clear on what that policy is. If they are following it, all is fair. If not, not. If you don't like the policy, do business elsewhere. Unless there is some rush I'd just leave it with the shop at this point as it does not seem worth the expense to get it back. Consignments are always a waiting game; long or short. It sold once at that price, it will sell again at that price; this time to someone serious about buying it. If the price to get it back and the hassle to deal with a sale elsewhere is worth it, go that route. IMO, you are getting the short end, but that's the way it goes sometimes, especially in an area new to you, but this does not mean it's unjust.

AJMBLAZER
April 17, 2012, 01:32 PM
I know California has an active pro-gun/2nd amendment legal community.

Can any of you Californian's come up with the big group out there's website?

Contact them and see if they know of a local pro-gun/2nd amendment lawyer. Chances are decent there's someone in your neck of the woods.

As stated before many lawyers will do something minor like this for free. I recently had to involve a lawyer in a dispute with the government and the guy charged me a fraction of his normal cost just due to spite for the government's BS. Also, considering your situation, how you came to have the gun, and the murky BS you're going through I'm sure someone would be willing to at least make a phone call on your behalf.

zxcvbob
April 17, 2012, 01:45 PM
calgunsfoundation.org might be able to help.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 02:39 PM
Again, I would be interested in seeing the store's consignment sale agreement (contract). If no contract exists, then it's a verbal contract and it's open to all sorts of different interpretations.

What we are hearing here is one side of the sale from the consignee. What we don't have is the shop's perspective which would likely fill in a lot of the details.

Lesson here is definitely get a contract, read it, and only sign it when it's fully understood.

It sounds like the shop will not make payment to the consignee until the transaction is complete and paid in full from the buyer and that makes perfect business sense. I could be wrong, but it does not sound like the shop is trying to pull a fast one on the consignee.

TurtlePhish
April 17, 2012, 03:58 PM
It sounds like the shop will not make payment to the consignee until the transaction is complete and paid in full from the buyer and that makes perfect business sense. I could be wrong, but it does not sound like the shop is trying to pull a fast one on the consignee.


The gun in question was already paid in full and the shop is refusing to give Erica the money until the purchaser actually comes in and picks up the gun.

danez71
April 17, 2012, 04:33 PM
OK what I think I will do is give the store and the buyer the first 30 days which by my understanding will be up on Friday. I plan on going in to the store and politely see if the gun was picked up and if I can get paid. If they tell me that he has not picked it up yet, I will politely request either to be paid or to get the gun back. I will politely tell them that until I am paid I am the owner of the gun and I am not interested in giving this guy another 30 days.

I don't feel I should have to continue to risk this guy ultimately not picking it up or at best being totally at his mercy as to when I get paid. All this time wasted the gun sits on a shelf in the stores storage room instead of the case where it could have been sold to someone who is going to pick it up in a reasonable amount of time. Sorry my definition of “reasonable” is not 30, 60, or more days. Worst case scenario this goes on for 59 days and he ultimately decides he doesn’t want it. Then what? I get a choice to keep it on consignment or take it back? The gun sat behind a door unable to be purchased by anyone else and I bet I don’t get any part of the restocking fee that will most likely be taken out of this guys refund if he ultimately decides he does not want it after all.

If they insist on giving him any additional time they should assume the risk and pay me off right then. If they say no than I will say they must give me my gun back and refund the guys money OR don't as I really don't care because that transaction is between them and him.

Generally... right.

Go back after the 30 Days. If the buyer hasnt picked it up... Hand him the printed out FAQ from the Attorney Genral site I gave you with #23 highlighted.

Tell him to cancel the sale.. give the guy his money back... send the DOJ the Cancellation form and give you the gun back (after you pay the DROS fees etc of course).

I tend too give people the benefit of the doubt...maybe he just doesnt know.... or this guy may just not want to lose the sale.

If its the later, he'll know you're serious when you hand his the Attorney General info that spells it out for him.

If his store policy is to give the guy another 30 days.. to bad.

Store policy doesnt NOT trump the Attorney General and FAQ #23 seems pretty simple.

russ69
April 17, 2012, 04:41 PM
OP, I know this sucks but it's the way it is. If the buyer paid by credit card and then never picked it up or was unable to pick it up, the credit card company would have the gun store refund his money. If you had been paid, then the gun store is out the gun money, the money they gave to you and it's possible they would even be out the gun because they couldn't DROS it back to you.
Your gun store just isn't good at communication (nothing new there). If it was me, after 30 days were up, I would call every week, talk to the owner and ask if the gun was picked up. After 60 days, I would demand a solution but I would give them some time to get the sale finished. You started in mid March, it's barely been 30 days, give it a chance to complete.
It's also possible he had other guns in dros and needs another 30 days to clear before he can dros again. He may have just bought a gun when he saw yours and has to wait another 30 days just to start another dros. I wouldn't panic yet.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 04:52 PM
The gun in question was already paid in full and the shop is refusing to give Erica the money until the purchaser actually comes in and picks up the gun.
And where is the problem with this?

The transaction is not complete at this point. I would not make payment to the consignee until the gun was paid, picked up, and outside of any return period offered.

This is simple Business 101 stuff.

Rail Driver
April 17, 2012, 04:54 PM
And where is the problem with this?

The transaction is not complete. If the shop pays the consignee and the buyer fails to complete the purchase, what recourse would the shop have at that point.

This is a simple business transaction, nothing more.

I don't know the intricacies of the California gun laws, but here in the free world, that's just the risk of doing business. The buyer paid for the gun, the seller (the OP) should get her money. If the buyer doesn't or cannot complete the purchase then the gun shop becomes the owner of the pistol (after refunding the original buyer his money, less fees) and it's on them to find a new buyer.

BobTheTomato
April 17, 2012, 05:06 PM
In all honesty, you really only have 2 options. You can wait until you either get your money or the gun is released OR you can tell the shop owner that unless you get satisfaction you will walk along the road holding a sign saying "Such and Such shop takes advantge of its customers." (You must be willing to do this if you threaten it) Getting a lawyer will cost far more than the firearm. In the grand scheme of things you should take option 1 and either walk away with the cash or your gun after a few more days and take away some lessons learned.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 05:27 PM
I don't know the intricacies of the California gun laws, but here in the free world, that's just the risk of doing business. The buyer paid for the gun, the seller (the OP) should get her money. If the buyer doesn't or cannot complete the purchase then the gun shop becomes the owner of the pistol (after refunding the original buyer his money, less fees) and it's on them to find a new buyer.
This is why we have a very clear consignment contract that covers the transaction from start to finish and outlines the payment expectations for the consignee. If a consignee expected us to take ownership of the firearm in the event of a failed sale and pay them regardless, I'd politely ask them to take their consignment elsewhere as that's not how we operate.

I find it exceptionally hard to believe that there was no signed contract on this consignment, especially in California.

To handle a sale like this without a signed agreement seems reckless this day and age.

Rail Driver
April 17, 2012, 05:31 PM
This is why we have a very clear consignment contract that covers the transaction from start to finish and outlines the payment expectations for the consignee. If a consignee expected us to take ownership of the firearm in the event of a failed sale and pay them regardless, I'd politely ask them to take their consignment elsewhere as that's not how we operate.

I find it exceptionally hard to believe that there was no signed contract on this consignment, especially in California.

To handle a sale like this without a signed agreement seems reckless this day and age.
I agree that handling any business worth more than pocket money without a signed contract is reckless in this day and age. Did you consider that maybe the dealer didn't sign a contract because he may have intended to do something he knew he shouldn't be doing (ie taking this poor woman's gun and not paying her when it sold)?

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 05:41 PM
:cuss:

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 05:44 PM
I agree that handling any business worth more than pocket money without a signed contract is reckless in this day and age. Did you consider that maybe the dealer didn't sign a contract because he may have intended to do something he knew he shouldn't be doing (ie taking this poor woman's gun and not paying her when it sold)?
That though never entered my mind as I cannot believe that a business would jeopardize their business and licensure over a couple hundred dollars.

Can you imagine the negative press that a shop would get by trying this.


This is looking like a bum's rush to pass judgement on the shop owner doing something bad with only half the facts being presented. I think the folks in Orlando can comment on how well that has worked for them.

If the OP would care to let the shop know of her post here, I think the remaining facts of the matter would be posted by a new member in California pretty quickly.

I think what is happening here is a case of poor communication and the consignee is left confused about the payment timeline on her pistol and the shop owner is likely unaware of this lively thread and is simply operating under their established policy regarding consignment sales.

Maybe I'm wrong......but I'd bet money that I'm right.

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 05:53 PM
:cuss:

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 05:59 PM
Here are the facts as I know them:

1. The buyer purcahsed the gun in March.
2. The store was paid in full by the buyer.
3. The store origianlly gave the buyer 30 days from the day of sale to pick up the gun.
4. I, the consignee, can not get paid until the buyer picks up the gun.
5. If the buyer fails to pick up the gun after 30 days he has to restart the DROS and gets another 30 days to pick up the gun.
6. The origianl 30 days ends at the end of this week.

I plan on giving the buyer until the end of his original 30 days to pick up the gun and for the store to release the funds to me. If the buyer fails to pick up the gun and the store refuses to pay me I will request to terminate the consignment and get the gun back. I feel at that point if the store wants to give the buyer another 30 days they should just pay me off, keep the gun and deal with whatever occurs with the buyer. I think that is more than fair since at the initial consignment agreement it was never stated verbally or in writing that I as the consignor can't get paid until the buyer picks up the gun nor was it ever stated, verbally or in writing, at the initial consignment agreement that the buyer was given up to 60+ days to pick up the gun after it was paid for in full. I feel that it is still my gun untill I get paid for it.

If anyone thinks that is not fair or at least within my right please tell me why.
You entered into a contract with the shop to sell your item. It sounds like they are honoring their side of the contract.

They sold your pistol: Check
They handled payment from buyer: Check
They handled the 4473 ATF paperwork and background check: Check
They handled the DROS or other CA required processes: Check
They delivered your pistol to the buyer during the initial 30-day DROS: PENDING
They completed the transaction with payment to you: OPEN

From the look of it, I think they have handled the transaction opretty well so far. I think patience to allow the contract to reach fufilment would provide a better result that breeching the contract with the shop and asking to cancel the sale and pending DROS. Also, keep in mind that you will incurr a cost of having the pistol transferred back to you as expliained by the shop when you dropped it off to be sold.

FWIW, my recommendation is to let it run it's course and take the payment once the pistol has been picked up.

Keep in mind this was a consignment sale. If you wanted immediate payment, you should have asked if the shop wanted to purchase your pistol directly rather than sell it for you on consignment.

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 06:08 PM
:cuss:

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 06:17 PM
RCARMS as I have stated I will let the original 30 days go by before asking to be paid or the gun back. Because I was not told about nor did I agree to the 30 60 days pick-up stuff I think I am within my rights to get paid or get the gun back. I am not sure why you think I am wrong. If I was informed of that stuff and agreed to it at the onset than yes I should allow the buyer an unlimited time to pick up the gun. Let's say that I follow your advice, how long should I wait before you think the dealer should poop or get off the pot?
You may be better off contacting the shop now to inform them of your intention to terminate the consignment contract after the initial 30-day DROS expires. That way they can make a final attempt to get the buyer to complate the sale. At the very least, it would save them the time, effort, paperwork, and cost of initiating a second DROS for the buyer.

I don't think you are wrong, but I do think that the communication between you and the shop could have been a lot better with regard to explaining the process and voicing your expectations. It sounds like the shop has done everything that you have asked them to do so far, but it's taking a while for the buyer to pick up the pistol and complete that step of the transaction, and that's where it's stalled.

Auctioneer Jim
April 17, 2012, 06:19 PM
As a fellow Californian and new guy to the forum let me suggest Calguns.net and post in the FFLs forum, you WILL get an answer.

Plus there are several attys that frequently post on the forums. Good advice all around over there.


Jim

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 06:19 PM
:cuss:

sarge83
April 17, 2012, 06:30 PM
Walk in and say I want my money NOW or I contact the ATF.
Decide now because once I walk out that door the call wil be
made.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 06:38 PM
Walk in and say I want my money NOW or I contact the ATF.
Decide now because once I walk out that door the call wil be
made.
This is incredibly bad advice.

1: The shop sounds to be on target with what they promised.
2: This is not a matter that the ATF would be involved in.

Rail Driver
April 17, 2012, 06:46 PM
This is incredibly bad advice.

1: The shop sounds to be on target with what they promised.
2: This is not a matter that the ATF would be involved in.
It seems that the definition of "sold" is in question here... Most everybody I know (including more than a handful of FFL dealers) defines sold as cash in hand. It seems that you (and the dealer in question) define "sold" differently.

I agree, however, that sarge gave poor advice.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 06:50 PM
It seems that the definition of "sold" is in question here... Most everybody I know (including more than a handful of FFL dealers) defines sold as cash in hand. It seems that you (and the dealer in question) define "sold" differently.

I agree, however, that sarge gave poor advice.
"sold" means that both money and goods have changed hands.

In this case, money has changed hands, but the goods have not. That is not a sale, but a deposit.

I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp on this situation.

45_auto
April 17, 2012, 06:52 PM
Walk in and say I want my money NOW or I contact the ATF.

LMAO! While you're at it, contact the Post Office, US Marines, Girl Scouts, and AARP. Any of those will do you more good in this case than the ATF!

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 07:31 PM
:cuss:

Teachu2
April 17, 2012, 08:00 PM
Erica, I live and work in California, and have managed a busy gun business in the past. I have also had a FFL (twice). From what you have described, the dealer is legally obligated to do exactly what they are doing. At the end of the 30 days, it's a little less clear - but the passage you quoted grants the buyer the opportunity to go a second 30 days.

The gun shop isn't happy about this situation, either. They have to do more paperwork if the buyer fails to pick up. They also have an unhappy customer - you. Realize 99% of these transactions go off without a hitch. Buyers are usually anxious to pick up the gun in 10 (or 11, if the shop chooses to error on the side of caution) days, but things happen.

If it doesn't get delivered to the buyer on or before Friday, be there 1st thing Saturday and ask them to produce your gun for inspection. If they refuse, call the local news station - they love to slam firearms people.

I'm not a lawyer, but if the gun shop produces the gun for inspection, I think you are out of luck - you'll probably have to wait the second 30 days. At the very least, you'll have to wait 10 and pay the DROS fee.

It is my opinion that the gun shop is NOT taking advantage of you - unless, of course, they can't produce the gun.

If you happen to be in Bakersfield, send me a PM. I have contacts that can assist you as needed.

Bubbles
April 17, 2012, 08:23 PM
I don't know the intricacies of the California gun laws, but here in the free world, that's just the risk of doing business. The buyer paid for the gun, the seller (the OP) should get her money.
Here in the free world handguns are cash and carry, and background checks are instant. We can make funds available to consignors in 72 hours after the sale (the time for a CC payment to hit our account), though our consignment agreement gives us 30 days.

In CA there are so many "steps" to buying a handgun that it looks like it's almost not worth the hassle of selling or consigning them, which is unfortunately the goal of their elected officials. :mad:

Teachu2
April 17, 2012, 08:39 PM
Yes, we pay a high price to live here in California.

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 08:47 PM
:cuss:

Teachu2
April 17, 2012, 09:00 PM
I agree with your interpretation, and don't believe that the gun shop will incur any liability by such - but if the gun shop owner/management disagrees, they do have some leverage.

Realize, though, that the gun shop is doing what they believe to be in compliance with the law. They will not risk anything over $29, or $275 for that matter. It's simply not worth it to them, even in the short run.

Your best course financially is to be patient and let them do their best to sell it. The fault is with the buyer, not the gun store.

sarge83
April 17, 2012, 09:03 PM
Well she can always spend more than the guns worth and go
to court. Or just wait and see if the shop owner might get
to feeling guilty and pay her. Either way sucks.

newfalguy101
April 17, 2012, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the support fellows. Fremmer i asked for the gun back and they told me that the gun now belonged to the buyer who has paid in full. I could wait 7 days but I doubt that time period alone will change their thinking on this.


In that case, if the buyer OWNS the gun, then the shop OWES you YOUR money.

Simply put, they cant have it both ways....

paramedic70002
April 17, 2012, 09:09 PM
Not to meddle too much in your business, but you were wanting another gun, right? Ask the dealer to credit you the amount owed and put it toward the gun you want.

Erica M.
April 17, 2012, 09:11 PM
:cuss:

Fremmer
April 17, 2012, 09:23 PM
Actually, paramedic just gave an excellent practical solution. Get yourself a 9mm!

roadchoad
April 17, 2012, 09:32 PM
Here's my take. All that Cali dros stuff aside, she took the gun in to be sold on consignment. The ffl takes a fee to sell the gun, which covers handling all potential buyers and sale details. once that gun is sold, it is on the ffl to get it to the buyer and she should be paid, regardless of whether the guy picks it up. If he doesn't, tough luck, it goes in the store's inventory. She should not be dealing with all this waiting bs. Her part of the deal is done, and she should be paid, regardless of if this guy ever picks up the gun.

Just curious, how much did it sell for?

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 09:44 PM
Here in the free world handguns are cash and carry, and background checks are instant. We can make funds available to consignors in 72 hours after the sale (the time for a CC payment to hit our account), though our consignment agreement gives us 30 days.

In CA there are so many "steps" to buying a handgun that it looks like it's almost not worth the hassle of selling or consigning them, which is unfortunately the goal of their elected officials. :mad:
Would you release finds to a consignor prior to transferring the firearm to the buyer or would you wait until the customer physically took possession of the consigned firearm and completed the sale?

Just curious as that is the center of the issue relevant to the OP.

Don

CHALK22
April 17, 2012, 09:57 PM
I know that once I got my cash in hand from this fiasco, I would be marching right out the door, and heading straight to the LGS's competition. I would be done with them.

RCArms.com
April 17, 2012, 09:58 PM
Here's my take. All that Cali dros stuff aside, she took the gun in to be sold on consignment. The ffl takes a fee to sell the gun, which covers handling all potential buyers and sale details. once that gun is sold, it is on the ffl to get it to the buyer and she should be paid, regardless of whether the guy picks it up. If he doesn't, tough luck, it goes in the store's inventory. She should not be dealing with all this waiting bs. Her part of the deal is done, and she should be paid, regardless of if this guy ever picks up the gun.

Just curious, how much did it sell for?
That truly depends on the terms of the consignment contract, written or verbal.

I always recommend a written contract because it's impossible to change the terms of the contract without both parties signing a re-drafted agreement.

That contract seems to be absent in this case, so it's the classic case of "he said, she said".

If the DROS expires and the original "buyer" does not come forward, the sale is cancelled per the language of the law. My guess this is why the shop won't make payment on the sale because if it's "cancelled", the buyer is entitled to a refund of their money unless the sale agreement contained a forfeiture clause.

I cannot comment on how I would handle this in my location because the procedure and contracts that I use cover all these issues up front. I cant imagine a retail shop in CA would not have a similar contractual process to handle a simple consignment sale and I still think there is more to this saga than what we know.

Don

danez71
April 17, 2012, 09:58 PM
Erica

From my perspective from research minus any bravado....

This is correct. When you get down to nitty gritty.... until a buyer takes possesion, the sale isnt complete.

They sold your pistol: Check
They handled payment from buyer: Check
They handled the 4473 ATF paperwork and background check: Check
They handled the DROS or other CA required processes: Check
They delivered your pistol to the buyer during the initial 30-day DROS: PENDING
They completed the transaction with payment to you: OPEN

Payment and taking possession are two intirely different things. Ive seen it really muddy things up in real-estate in regards to pre-possession by a buyer before escrow closes or post possession of the seller after escrow closes.

Generally, a sale is complete when 'consideration' is given and 'possession' is taken. Anything other than that is lawyer food.

Also, the gun laws will trump any consignment laws. (thats a period right there)

Not to meddle too much in your business, but you were wanting another gun, right? Ask the dealer to credit you the amount owed and put it toward the gun you want.

Anything resembling this is at the option of the dealer.

Again, as RCArms laid out very nicely, the sale is not complete. The dealer would be taking on some risk of the gun not selling for the same price in the future if this buyer ultimately falls thru and loosing some money.

Good business.. maybe. Risk for the dealer.. absolutely.


Erica M. said:
....while the passage does imply the buyer can restart the DROS process a 2nd time it does not guarantee the buyer a second DROS with that specific firearm


Really... it doesnt even imply that. Its ONLY TWO sentences so lets look at as two sentences.

Sentence 1:
If a firearm purchaser does not take physical possession of the firearm within 30 days of submission of the DROS information, the dealer must cancel the sale and, if the firearm was a handgun, send the DOJ a cancellation form for that transaction.

The transaction MUST be cancelled. No other option but canceling the transaction.

Sentence 2:
If the purchaser still wants to take possession of the firearm, the entire DROS process must be completed including payment of DROS fees.
(PC section 12071(b))


I see the angle Teachu2 mentioned.

However, as I and RCArms.com have said, 'a' sale isnt complete until payment and possossion have taken place.

But specifically with handgun sales in CA, the DROS is inserted in the middle.

I... who is not a lawyer... say that the 'transaction' (CA Attorney Generals language) is cancelled and that the 'transaction' includes everything that RCArms.com laid out which is (shortened) payment, DROS, taking possession.

Therefore, if the 'transaction' has been cancelled, the buyer starts from step one which would include settling on a buy price, payment, submitting DROS etc etc etc.

Sentence two above is reiterating that, yes indeed, the DROS have to be redone.


Having said all that.. just go down there and show the dealer. If he balks too much, tell him that it leaves you no choice but to go to the Attorney General.

Thats the LAST thing he wants and its certainly worth losing the sale to avoid it.

If we're right youll get your gun. Either way, the DOJ will make sure the law is followed and there is nothing you can do about it.


This is a reminder of why Ive never done and will probably never do consignment ANYTHING.

I like my transaction as simple as possible with the least amount of room for error. I may of lost out on a few bucks but I have piece of mind and not 2 pages of internet banter.

Good luck and be patient.

Bull in the china shop wont work here despite what some have recommended.

The gun laws will trump all other consignment laws, store policies or your interpretation of what a reasonable amount of time.

Read that again.

Just make sure the dealer is holding to the gun laws.

Lost Sheep
April 17, 2012, 10:19 PM
Erica M.

Sorry about the loss of your husband.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with the sale of this gun and the purchase of your new one. Personally, I would have kept it because 22 ammo is cheap and practice time at the range is VERY valuable. But that is beside the point. However, if you get a chance to get the gun back, something to consider.

On point:

Are you dealing with the store owner or some some kind clerk or manager who may not have any "skin in the game"? Small businesses seldom treat their customers so cavalierly. If you can get an audience, sit down with the store owner and outline what you want. Make sure it is reasonable from the standpoint of the store and get it down clearly. Write it down beforehand so you can't be negotiated or wheedled out of it.

If the 10 and 30 day periods for the buyer have passed and (as has been suggested) the sale is cancelled, then the store has no obligation to hold the gun for him and some other (qualified) buyer SHOULD be able to buy it. That buyer could even be you, or if you find a brand-new buyer, that person. This presupposes that Califonia Commercial Code does not obligate the store to a duty to the absent buyer longer than the 30 days.

If this absent buyer is unreachable, he could be dead for all the store knows and never coming back. How long do they expect you to wait?

How long are you willing to wait? Set a deadline for return of your gun or delivery of your proceeds of sale. Get the store owner or manager to commit to that date and ask him to agree to it in writing.

The store is rightly concerned about the (absent) buyer complaining to the Better Business Bureau if they cancel the sale unreasonably. They should be equally concerned for your expectations, as well. The store has obligations to both of you. But your next meeting with the store SHOULD (hopefully) result in a committment from the store of performance by a certain (in writing) date. Between the store's obligations to each of you, there MUST be a middle ground. Get the store to commit to that. The important part is that there should be an end date.

Doing business is doing business. It seems to me also, that if they cannot produce the gun for your inspection that there may, indeed, be evidence of intention to deprive you of your property.

For your trouble, you should ask that they waive the consignment cancellation fee. As an accomodation, you can let them keep it, but make them aware that you are considering it.

Good Luck.

Lost Sheep

Rail Driver
April 17, 2012, 10:27 PM
RCArms: You're no better than the bureaucrats that instituted the legislation infringing firearms rights in California. You're defending a shop taking this woman's money and holding it for an indeterminate amount of time for no reason other than the buyer didn't pick up the firearm in reasonable time. When a person consigns a firearm the FFL that is selling it for them STILL must enter it into their bound book as an acquisition. Once it's in the FFL's bound book, the firearm is the property of the FFL by default until it's sold. When a buyer PAYS for the firearm, it becomes the property of the buyer (as the FFL told Ms. Erica). The money, less the fees assessed by the FFL, is the property of the SELLER (Ms. Erica). That the FFL is refusing to give the seller her money is NOT legal, regardless of whether or not the buyer has picked up the sold item or not, because at the time of the sale, the FFL was the defacto owner of the firearm. A consignment is a sale with delayed payment. The FFL is a thief, no two ways about it. I almost wish it was me in Ms. Erica's shoes, because if it was, the FFL she's dealing with would be out of business within 6 months or sooner if the court docket wasn't overly full.

Anyone that thinks it's ok to hold a person's money for any length of time just because the buyer hasn't picked up the property is no better than a common thief. Once the buyer pays for the item, it belongs to the buyer *as the FFL in question ALREADY STATED.* So who does the money belong to then, but the seller? It certainly doesn't belong to the FFL that is illegally collecting interest on said money while he waits for the (likely nonexistent) buyer to pick it up. The FFL has already gotten his fees from both parties, and still has possession of the firearm AND the money owed to Ms. Erica. The only person winning here is the FFL. The FFL is a crook, and I'd be very interested to know the name of the shop AND FFL holder so that I can do everything in my power, within the bounds of the law, to see to it that the FFL in question never rips off anyone else.

DMH
April 17, 2012, 10:45 PM
What happened to all of the replies by Erica?

Mal H
April 17, 2012, 10:50 PM
Apparently she decided to delete them and move on.

Since there is no longer a topic to discuss we'll close this.

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