10mm Auto VS .45ACP video


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brigadier
April 18, 2012, 04:54 PM
A video I made showing the 10mm Auto and .45ACP being compared to one and other in a bullet trap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOk_Tra0b6s

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45_auto
April 18, 2012, 07:47 PM
Wow, thanks, I know what I want to be carrying if I'm ever attacked by phonebooks!

orionengnr
April 18, 2012, 08:37 PM
Dude, do you use an iron lung?

brigadier
April 18, 2012, 09:47 PM
No, it's just a garbage camera that records all the sounds you don't want to hear and none of the sounds you do.

Wow, thanks, I know what I want to be carrying if I'm ever attacked by phonebooks!

That's actually a problem in my life. LOL.

sirsloop
April 18, 2012, 09:57 PM
lol... i cant watch that... its all crazy shakey and theres all this heavy breathing!

ApacheCoTodd
April 18, 2012, 11:44 PM
Chester the (phone book) molester.:D Thanks for the effort.

Shoobee
April 19, 2012, 12:13 AM
http://waterguy.us/handgun.htm

Here is a chart that illustrates most handgun cartridges.

Note that the 10mm auto is almost the same in terms of energy as the 44 rem mag.

This makes recoil a significant issue.

Whereas the 45acp is much easier to control. Recoil is a more significant issue in a personal defense weapon against other people.

Bullet traps that measure depth penetration are fun. I have used stacks of newspapers as well as stacks of phone books.

If I really really wanted a powerful handgun, I would get the .45-70 revolver:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/BFR_45-70_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BFR_45-70_1.jpg&h=1028&w=2394&sz=294&tbnid=Pmuga_fmpCbMwM:&tbnh=53&tbnw=123&prev=/search%3Fq%3D45-70%2Brevolver%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=45-70+revolver&docid=AjnhMgf15g0D8M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FbWPT7KJFtPbiAKAmvX7Ag&ved=0CEEQ9QEwBA&dur=1926

However in the meantime my 44 rem mag is more than over-powered for any practical application south of Alaska or Canada.

rswartsell
April 19, 2012, 01:29 AM
If you set out to do an "apples to apples" comparison of the two rounds you failed on a lot of levels. I don't mean to be unnecessarily critical but dissemination of disinformation or a superficial understanding of "truth" being presented as definitive is just not acceptable.

At an early point here, you toss out pressure figures as evidence of which is more "powerful" evidencing a misunderstanding of what is going on "in toto".

Pressures developed are a function of case capacity, powder burn speed, bullet weight, etc., etc. and ARE NOT a definitive yardstick for comparing "power" or effectiveness for stated purpose of different cartridges or loads.

Study the debates regarding comparison of .44 mag (high pressure) vs. .45 Colt (lower pressure) for an example.

If you wish to make "laws of physics" type statements such as which is definitely more "powerful" then I suggest you simplify and lean hard on Newton you will then be able to take mass x velocity and compare "energy".

You fail to understand the importance of comparing defined quantities. Full house 230 gr reloads is not nearly specific enough. At what velocity?

Your angle of incidence and assuring same resistance is pitiful. You don't speak to bullet configuration or a myriad of other variables before drawing conclusions.

I don't want to discourage you and if you have a firm interest, then by all means continue but what you have presented is not conclusive of anything much at all.

brigadier
April 19, 2012, 01:38 AM
I don't see 10mm in there at all. I see .40S&W but 10mm Auto is hotter then the .40S&W.

.45ACP does not keep up with the 10mm Auto in terms of speed for weight. Speed for weight, 10mm is almost exactly the same as the hotter .45 Super.

FWIW, I find having a .45 Converted to .460 Rowland more appetizing then a 10mm, and .45ACP is a much safer round for "around the house" so it's not to say the .45 doesn't have it's edge.

45_auto
April 19, 2012, 06:31 AM
I don't see 10mm in there at all.

It's just below 40 S&W, just above 400 Corbon.

When are you going to show the experiment where it takes 3 times as long to get 2 A-zone hits at 7 feet (even worse at longer ranges) with a 10mm as opposed to a 45ACP or some other equally controllable caliber?

Or do you just hope that you can get off a single shot, yell "watch out, I've got a 10mm", and scare all the bad guys away?

As Shobee pointed out, if phonebook penetration is really the most important thing to you, get a bigger (more powerful) gun.

RickMD
April 19, 2012, 08:29 AM
Is this supposed to be a joke?

Pyro
April 19, 2012, 04:44 PM
Luke...I am your father.

TonyAngel
April 19, 2012, 06:27 PM
brigadier, I'm not real sure of what your test is supposed to show. Is it your assertion, based on your phonebook test, that the 10mm is a better defensive round? Based on better penetration?

The way I viewed the results of this little test is that the .45 would be a more effective round, of those used. Even the hardball managed to penetrate the first phonebook, which was dry. If I was trying to kill a phonebook the test would tell me that the .45 accomplished nearly 100% energy transfer to the target, where as the 10mm rounds used over penetrated and expended a large amount of their energy on something other than the intended target.

Although I am a fan of the 10mm, due to its flexibility, it didn't grow very much in popularity and for pretty good reason. Ballistically, it's power approaches that of a .41 mag, so if you want that kind of power, you could just get a .41 mag and be able to exceed the 10mm.

From what I remember, the best commercially available defensive rounds for the 10mm were in the 170 to 180gr range of bullets weights. If I remember correctly, this was the ammunition chosen by the FBI when they adopted the 10mm in the form of the Smith 1076 (I believe it was). In the end, they decided that the full house 10mm was just too much and and decided to go with a fed lite load. Shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W was born. The .40 S&W is nothing more than a cut down 10mm case using a small primer pocket. Amazingly enough, the numbers generated by the .40 came pretty darned close to that of the .45 ACP, with the advantage of being able to accommodate a high capacity magazine.

Is the 10mm better than a .45? I don't think so. It's still a fun round and shoots pretty darned flat. I know that it's easier to bang a 12" gong at 100 yards with a Delta Elite than it is with a .45 gov't model. For me, anyway.

MachIVshooter
April 19, 2012, 08:55 PM
Note that the 10mm auto is almost the same in terms of energy as the 44 rem mag.

This makes recoil a significant issue

I love the 10mm, but a .44 Mag it is not. Top .44 loads have considerably more kinetic energy than the 10mm. The mighty 10 is the ballistic twin of the .357 magnum (which stands to reason, given their near-identical operating pressures and casse capacities).

Real, full-power loads as you would see from 5" automatics and ~6" revolvers are more like:


9x19mm: 390 ft/lbs
9x19mm +P: 480 ft/lbs
.38 Spl: 250 ft/lbs
.38 Spl. +P: 400 ft/lbs
.357 Magnum: 750 ft/lbs
.40 S&W: 550 ft/lbs
10mm Auto: 780 ft/lbs
.41 Magnum: 1,050 ft/lbs
.44 Magnum: 1,300 ft/lbs
.45 ACP: 420 ft/lbs
.45 ACP +P: 550 ft/lbs
.45 Super: 650 ft/lbs
.45 Colt: 400 ft/lbs
.45 Colt heavy: 1,200 ft/lbs
.454 Casull: 1,600 ft/lbs

Buffalo Bore even has a .44 load that will exceed 1,600, though they're physically too long for me to test in my S&W 629, so you'll have to ask others how the recoil is.

But 10mm recoil being on par with .44 mag? Not even close. More than the sedate .45 ACP, yes, but not uncontraollable by any stetch. Even my wife shoots the lightweight Glock 20 just fine.

Mainsail
April 19, 2012, 11:33 PM
Before you buy another gun...

http://www.dimensionsguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Tripod.jpg

Bio-Chem
April 19, 2012, 11:41 PM
the heavy breathing is killing me made it through 4min and gave up :(

willypete
April 20, 2012, 01:21 AM
Note that the 10mm auto is almost the same in terms of energy as the 44 rem mag.

This makes recoil a significant issue.

However in the meantime my 44 rem mag is more than over-powered for any practical application south of Alaska or Canada.

I know you said you have a .44, but do you reload for it and harvest any game with it? How often do you shoot 10mm?

700≠1100 is all I'm sayin'...

As someone pointed out, 10mm is a lot closer to .357 Mag, although 10mm has a leg up in shorter barrels due to greater area.

.44 mag has a great record on whitetail, black bear, coyote, etc. I certainly wouldn't call it "more than over-powered".

RickMD
April 20, 2012, 07:53 AM
This is a quote from Frank C. Barnes in his book, Cartridges of the World. "Actual ballistics are generally about 100 fps slower than early factory claims so actual 10mm Automatic factory loads do not significantly exceed 45 Automatic +P ballistics."

flyskater
April 20, 2012, 07:08 PM
Video reminds me of riding a roller coaster.

brigadier
April 20, 2012, 08:01 PM
Guys, I would have thought it quite obvious but this video was made for layman and vets alike to give a general and fundamental look at the differences in firepower. If I wanted to be specific about application, I would have been.

If you want to get in to deep scientific debate, we can go there too. Youtube viewers probably lack the patience and detailed perspective, but here on forum we can go on about this all day.

brigadier
April 20, 2012, 08:22 PM
I love the 10mm, but a .44 Mag it is not. Top .44 loads have considerably more kinetic energy than the 10mm. The mighty 10 is the ballistic twin of the .357 magnum (which stands to reason, given their near-identical operating pressures and case capacities).

I do allot of different tests with allot of different loads. I use to get opportunities to do so on animal corpses though I don't get to do this any more. Still, I do get to try different applications.

There's a reason why I didn't get in to "what's better then what in what way" as this is a huge and highly complex subject matter. I can however tell you that the medium .44 Magnum loads I've played with usually produce very similar results to full-house 10mm loads.

In any case, the 10mm Auto is not a .44 Magnum or a .357. It's it's own round with it's own properties. It accomplishes allot of the same ends as both but still it's own round. As I stated in the video comments, for around the house, I definitely feel more comfortable with the .45ACP for it's LACK of penetration.

But for sheer fire power, 10mm is superior to the .45ACP, hands down. And for stopping power, 10mm is not only a mathematically better man stopper but the history backs it up. If you study actual cases of full house 10mm rounds being used against personnel, it often sounds like a script from a Dirty Harry movie. 1 shot and they go down like a sack of potatoes.

The good news is that the difference between most pistol rounds records for potency against personnel is surprisingly small, not just between 10mm and .45ACP but even when you throw 9mm, .357 and .44 Magnum in to the mix. Only when you go from pistol to rifle rounds do you see a significant jump in stopping power.

Again, when you get in to cartridge potency against personnel, you are entering a very vast and complex arena.

MachIVshooter
April 20, 2012, 11:31 PM
This is a quote from Frank C. Barnes in his book, Cartridges of the World. "Actual ballistics are generally about 100 fps slower than early factory claims so actual 10mm Automatic factory loads do not significantly exceed 45 Automatic +P ballistics."

COTW is a great reference material, but it's not perfect.

Full power 10mm loads are significanly above even .45 Super. The 10mm was originally rated at 40,000 PSI, but that was backed off to 37,500. The .45 ACP +P is rated at 23,000 PSI, and the .45 Super has a max pressure of 28,500 PSI. The 10mm has a 24.0 gr. case capacity, the .45 ACP has a 25.0 grain case capacity. The pressure is the difference, just as it is with .38 vs. .357 or .44 Spl. vs. .44 Magnum.

The .460 Rowland will compete with (and slightly exceed) the 10mm, and this is because it operates at 40,000 PSI. The .460 technically has more case capacity than the .45 ACP, but with the bullets being seated to the same OAL, it is the same for all intents and purposes.

Trust me, from a 5" gun, the 10mm is a 750-800 ft/lbs cartridge in true form. 180's @ 1,400 are my pet load.

45_auto
April 21, 2012, 08:06 AM
But 10mm recoil being on par with .44 mag? Not even close. More than the sedate .45 ACP, yes, but not uncontraollable by any stetch. Even my wife shoots the lightweight Glock 20 just fine.

That's why the FBI dropped the 10mm, it was too easy to control and they wanted to give the bad guys a chance.

"Just fine" means different things to different people. To you may mean that she doesn't hit herself in the foot when she pulls the trigger, other people may actually require some kind of controllable follow-up to call it "just fine". Do you have any kind of documentation of your wife's score shooting an IDPA or IPSC match, or any kind of pistol qualification score with a Glock 20? That would give an idea of just how controllable it is compared to weapons other people are shooting.

brigadier
April 21, 2012, 08:07 AM
The .460 Rowland will compete with (and slightly exceed) the 10mm, and this is because it operates at 40,000 PSI. The .460 technically has more case capacity than the .45 ACP, but with the bullets being seated to the same OAL, it is the same for all intents and purposes.


I managed to talk Johnie Rowland in to converting my USP to .460 Rowland. It's all a matter of $ now. Unfortunately that $ is up to 3 months away.


I wish the .460 Rowland were more popular then it is. It makes more sense to me then any other new pistol round to come out since the 10mm Auto. I suspect that Johny isn't making much effort to market the fact that it will still shoot .45ACP and that it'd gain allot of momentum if more people knew.

That's why the FBI dropped the 10mm, it was too easy to control and they wanted to give the bad guys a chance.

I don't know if it's true but I heard from credible sources that the claim that excessive recoil was one of the major reasons for the FBI getting rid of the 10mm is a myth.

brigadier
April 21, 2012, 07:15 PM
I know some of you have been complaining about the shakiness of the video so I activated youtube's shakiness editor. I haven't seen what the full video is going to look like (it's still in progress at the time of this message) but the previews look allot better.

I can't help you with the breathing. The camera just sucks (see a video I shot free-hand with a borrowed HD camera for comparison ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQr_VvppeM ). I am planning a documentary series for youtube and am working on getting a much nicer camera for that. So the camera situation will eventually go from very bad to very good. Unfortunately, it'll also take time. Got allot of irons in the fire and have to start deciding on priorities.

MachIVshooter
April 21, 2012, 08:53 PM
Do you have any kind of documentation of your wife's score shooting an IDPA or IPSC match, or any kind of pistol qualification score with a Glock 20? That would give an idea of just how controllable it is compared to weapons other people are shooting.

For IDPA or IPSC, I wouldn't be shooting full power loads. Of course the recovery time is longer. I never said it didn't have recoil, I said it's not unmanageable.

Looking at it the other way, would you want to use the cream puff loads one runs for competition when it's a life or death situation? I doubt it....

brigadier
April 21, 2012, 09:23 PM
Even with Double Tap loads, recoil on my 10mm Beretta feels very similar to the recoil on my CZ-52. I've heard people say the CZ-52s kick is on the harder side of the service pistol spectrum but never heard a single complaint and I've been a CZ-52 nut and associating with CZ-52 nuts for a decade now.

A fellow at a nearby gun store describes the 10mm as kicking like a hot .45. I think that's the most accurate way to put it.

I might be willing to bring a 10mm in to competition just for the flatter trajectory and longer range but even for those who wouldn't, it's not like you are likely to get in to a shoot-out against a competitive shooter. 99% of the people you're likely to get in to a real shoot-out with don't even know how to pull the trigger right, let alone have the skills to win a shooting match.

45_auto
April 22, 2012, 07:56 AM
Looking at it the other way, would you want to use the cream puff loads one runs for competition when it's a life or death situation?

Most of the 9mm loads out there are LESS than "creampuff loads" by your definition. They aren't powerful enough to be used in competition, including the one used by the US military. Lots of people (cops, military, etc) regularly trust their lives to 9mm's, and lots of dead people on the wrong end of the barrel would dispute your opinion of the effectiveness of those loads. ;)

In the real world, you'll find that people don't worry about the numbers behind a bullet when it's coming in their direction, and fall down dead because it's the fearsome 10mm. A lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 10mm bullet hitting the dirt somewhere behind them won't stop them.

agtman
April 22, 2012, 01:29 PM
For IDPA or IPSC, I wouldn't be shooting full power loads. Of course the recovery time is longer. I never said it didn't have recoil, I said it's not unmanageable.
Looking at it the other way, would you want to use the cream puff loads one runs for competition when it's a life or death situation? I doubt it....


Well said.

That's why the people who retort with, "Well the 10mm's split-times are slower than [pick one] ...," just don't get it.

"Split-times" are for gun-gamers. Nobody cares about your split-times in a gun-fight, least of all the bad guy.

Assuming a real-world life-threatening encounter that would justify DF, the only "time" that matters is how fast you can draw from concealment (or your duty rig) and get off that first COM hit. If you've trained up to shooting full-power loads in your carry-caliber, that's all that matters.

For serious 10mm users - most of whom aren't weekend-warrior/hobby-shooters plinking away with .40-level 10mm ammo - they've already put in sufficient practice time with the high-performance stuff they carry on the street to respond quickly and accurately to a threat.

:cool:

MachIVshooter
April 22, 2012, 01:49 PM
A lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 10mm bullet hitting the dirt somewhere behind them won't stop them.

Agreed. But a lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 180 gr. bullet impacting their body at over 1,300 FPS is quite a different story.

I have no problem emptying a 10mm in roughly the same time and with accuracy equal to doing it with a 9mm, .40 or .45. Someone who is less proficient or not as strong may, but that is not my concern.

As for effectiveness, we can debate that until the cows come home, and their is plenty of arguement both ways. Some studies show that handgun wounds from common cartridges tend to be indistinguishable from one another, others show that larger diameter and more powerful rounds have an edge. I am of the camp believing that shot placement and proper bullet selection aside, the more potent cartridges are (logically) at an advantage for stopping an attacker.

That said, I carry .380, 9mm, .45 and 10mm handguns. Which one depends on my attire, which in turn is dependent on the environment I'll be in and the season/weather.

45_auto
April 22, 2012, 05:56 PM
Agreed. But a lot of noise and muzzle flash and a 180 gr. bullet impacting their body at over 1,300 FPS is quite a different story.

Yep, it'll be indistuinguishable from a 125 gr. bullet at 1,400 FPS, or a 230 gr. bullet at 850 FPs, or a 180 gr. bullet at 1,100 FPS. They're all wimpy handgun rounds.

Sounds like we're on pretty much the same page. I also carry 10mm, 45ACP, 9mm, and 380ACP depending on the weather and the environment I'll be in. Doesn't make any difference to me, they're all going to be about equally effective. I'm not going to shoot once then stand there looking to see if my shot was effective or not.

For serious 10mm users - most of whom aren't weekend-warrior/hobby-shooters plinking away with .40-level 10mm ammo - they've already put in sufficient practice time with the high-performance stuff they carry on the street to respond quickly and accurately to a threat.

Glad to hear that your "Internet Commando Card" came in the mail - just think how good those guys who carry 50AE Desert Eagles must be!

RedHeadHunter
April 22, 2012, 06:54 PM
Not disagreeing with the 10mm vs 45acp, but if penetration is the main criteria then my 7.62x25 in my CZ52 (makes it through 3 landscape timbers) is way more powerful than my 44 mag Redhawk (makes it through 2 landscape timbers).:D

45_auto
April 23, 2012, 05:50 AM
Not disagreeing with the 10mm vs 45acp, but if penetration is the main criteria then my 7.62x25 in my CZ52 (makes it through 3 landscape timbers) is way more powerful than my 44 mag Redhawk (makes it through 2 landscape timbers).

This is a discussion of the power of the 10mm. Please do not confuse anyone by bringing reason, logic, or facts into this thread.

MachIVshooter
April 23, 2012, 12:30 PM
Yep, it'll be indistuinguishable from a 125 gr. bullet at 1,400 FPS, or a 230 gr. bullet at 850 FPs, or a 180 gr. bullet at 1,100 FPS. They're all wimpy handgun rounds.

Maybe, maybe not.

Kinetic energy in and of itself does not kill, we know this. What it translates to ballistically is the ability to do work. Greater energy can drive the bullet deeper, expend it wider, or both. If power didn't matter, we would all be carrying mousegun cartridges for their lower recoil and the ability to fit more of them in the magazine.

Shot placement is most important, followed by bullet selection. No secret there. But it would be foolhardy to ignore the importance of having enough oomph behind that well placed and properly selected bullet to drive it deep enough.

Not disagreeing with the 10mm vs 45acp, but if penetration is the main criteria then my 7.62x25 in my CZ52 (makes it through 3 landscape timbers) is way more powerful than my 44 mag Redhawk (makes it through 2 landscape timbers).

Penetration through wood (or any number of other materials) is not a good proxy for performance in living creatures.

45_auto
April 23, 2012, 12:50 PM
How about phonebook penetration, think that would be a better proxy? Maybe we could get someone to make a video of it! ;)

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