When was 'cocked and locked' invented and by whom?


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Shoobee
April 19, 2012, 12:55 PM
Flashback to TBS Quantico Va 1976.

1911A1 range qualification shooting covered techniques of holding (two handed), aiming (natural sight picture), trigger squeeze, and offset for the iron sight allignment.

"With a magazine and 5 rounds lock and load ... ."

But in those days (1975) there was never any mention of 'cocked and locked' carry in the G/I issue brown leather holsters.

In the FMF and Fleet, duty officers normally did not load their .45s unless absolutely necessary, as just before a drug bust (been there done that).

So who 'invented' the cocked and locked protocol for the 1911A1 and when and where?

Is this just some urban legend that is rampantly popular now?

I know there is a ton of gifted knowledge and experience here on this website forum, so I am asking.

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Rail Driver
April 19, 2012, 01:00 PM
Concealed carry for defense is much different than using a sidearm in the line of duty. One never knows when a self defense situation could occur, so one must always be prepared. In the line of duty, usually officers know when they're going to be heading into a dangerous situation. As an aside, police and other law enforcement also carry with one in the chamber. On a military base (especially stateside) things are quite a bit different.

Edit to add: To put it in a different perspective, would you expect a criminal who's attempting to mug you at gunpoint to wait while you load and charge your weapon?

allaroundhunter
April 19, 2012, 01:05 PM
I'm not exactly sure when, but my grandfather was a pilot during Korea and was issued an M1911A1. He said that he was instructed to carry with a mag in, but with an empty chamber, hammer down. He actually does use the term "cocked and locked" when referring to 1911's, but not with any other guns so I assume that he heard in from his time in service.

rcmodel
April 19, 2012, 01:09 PM
Some GI invented it in a trench in WWI I betcha.

Then Jeff Cooper had more to do with it then anyone else lately.
He and a few friends started the first modern combat pistol competition in Southern California during the late 1950s.
Through it all, a Cocked & Locked 1911 was the ticket to get in the door if you wanted any chance of winning. No other gun or carry method was as fast & accurate while still making major caliber.

Cooper went on to write for several gun magazines of the 60's & 70's, as well as start the Gunsite training facility.

rc

RhinoDefense
April 19, 2012, 01:11 PM
The 1911 carry condition was born out of Browning's testing and US Army demands. It was not designed from the start to do that.

Jim K
April 19, 2012, 01:16 PM
"Cocked and locked" was always an option with the M1911/A1 pistol, but the military chose not to use it except in limited circumstances, such as the need to control a horse in the old days. The few police or civilians who carried the pistol often did so with the hammer down on a loaded chamber or with the chamber empty. Some, though, did carry "cocked and locked."

It was probably Jeff Cooper or some other of the 1911 aficiandos who coined the term, as they popularized other terms like the "conditions".

It is a safe enough way to carry that pistol, but in some cases, when the gun is carried openly, it makes folks nervous and is not good for an image. For that reason, the few police departments that allow carry of the 1911 often mandate that the hammer be down.

The common myth is that John Browning intended the pistol to be carried "cocked and locked" but there is no evidence to support that. The manual safety, like the grip safety, was added at the demand of the Army; the manual safety at the behest of the cavalry who needed to be able to make the pistol safe while the rider controlled his horse or if the gun had to be holstered temporarily. Browning apparently felt that the half-cock notch was the best way to carry a gun with the chamber loaded, and that is the only safety he put on any exposed hammer gun, pistol, rifle or shotgun.

Jim

Jim K
April 19, 2012, 01:21 PM
A bit of followup, on the "lock and load." That command makes no sense with the 1911 pistol, since the slide cannot be operated to load the gun if it is locked (safety on).

It actually comes from rifle shooting, where the command with the M1, M14 and M16/M4 is "lock and load" since those rifles can be loaded with the safety engaged. With the M1903 Springfield, the command was "load and lock", so the bolt would be operated to load the first round from the magazine, then the safety applied. When the M1 was adopted, the order was reversed.

Jim

Greg528iT
April 19, 2012, 01:23 PM
Concealed carry for defense is much different than using a sidearm in the line of duty.
The question is NOT.. how you should carry today. It's when was "cocked and locked" born.

Some GI invented it in a trench in WWI I betcha.
I wouldn't bet against that.

We all know "official" training material generally lags, common practice that proves to be effective. In some cases official rules against practices, that prove to be deadly, but usually only after several deaths.

We've had several people stating that during their military service, WWII, Korean, Vietnam that the official Army protocol was, magazine inserted, hammer down on a empty chamber UNLESS action was imminent. At what point did the army (US service) issue instructions that in IMMINENT need that the 1911 be "cocked and locked"? Did they ever use those terms? Condition 1? Or Round chambered and no mention of the thumb safety????????

Rail Driver
April 19, 2012, 01:25 PM
A bit of followup, on the "lock and load." That command makes no sense with the 1911 pistol, since the slide cannot be operated to load the gun if it is locked (safety on).

It actually comes from rifle shooting, where the command with the M1, M14 and M16/M4 is "lock and load" since those rifles can be loaded with the safety engaged. With the M1903 Springfield, the command was "load and lock", so the bolt would be operated to load the first round from the magazine, then the safety applied. When the M1 was adopted, the order was reversed.

Jim
To clarify: The AR-15/M16/M4 can be loaded with the safety engaged, but the safety CANNOT be engaged unless the bolt is locked back or the weapon is cocked. Thus "Lock and Load, one 20rd magazine!"

The question is NOT.. how you should carry today. It's when was "cocked and locked" born. I didn't advise anyone on how they should carry today. I made a comment that could be a part of the origins of the term, and the reason for the difference that the OP noted in his original post. Thanks and have a nice day :)

X-Rap
April 19, 2012, 01:29 PM
Cooper and his followers are the reason that the 1911 has the popularity today as a carry weapon. If the gov. manual of arms were used it would serve very little purpose in todays civilian SD roll.
I'm sure references of what is commonly known as condition one can be found that predate Cooper but he was the one who vigorously promoted and trained that doctrine. I grew up on his writings and he made me a believer, I do not often carry the 1911 for personal defence but when I do it is in the manner he described.

rcmodel
April 19, 2012, 01:37 PM
Condition 1All the 1911 "Conditions" was another of Jeff Coopers inventions in the 60's.

I never heard the term Condition used in referance to a 1911 in all the time I was in the Army.

I did hear or say Cocked & Locked or Lock & Load a gizillion times though.

Not only applied to the 1911, but every other weapon in the inventory.

It was a command to put the safety on and load, or visa versa, and every swinging Johnson understood it.

Whether you could actually do it in that order or not depended on the type of weapon you had in your hands at the time.

rc

RhinoDefense
April 19, 2012, 01:45 PM
A bit of followup, on the "lock and load." That command makes no sense with the 1911 pistol, since the slide cannot be operated to load the gun if it is locked (safety on).

It actually comes from rifle shooting, where the command with the M1, M14 and M16/M4 is "lock and load" since those rifles can be loaded with the safety engaged. With the M1903 Springfield, the command was "load and lock", so the bolt would be operated to load the first round from the magazine, then the safety applied. When the M1 was adopted, the order was reversed.
Originally it was load and lock. It was a command that came about in the musket days. You loaded the patch and ball, then locked the hammer back.

The term got switched around in a John Wayne movie because it was easier to say for him.

Lock and load has nothing to do with the 20th century US firearms manual of arms.

rcmodel
April 19, 2012, 01:50 PM
There are a awful lot of words, terms, phrases, and acronyms that are commonly used in the U.S. Military that do not appear in the firearms manual, or any other manual I betcha!

rc

Jim K
April 19, 2012, 02:06 PM
Sorry, Rhino, the command has nothing to do with, and was not used in the musket days. In the command, as used, the word "lock" always meant to "lock" the firing mechanism, in other words, to put the safety on.

And no, it was not changed because John Wayne couldn't pronounce it (where to these ideas come from??) it was changed because the rifle changed.

Rail Driver is correct, I didn't cover the detail.

FWIW, someone once did a bit of satire on "conditions". I don't remember them all, but Condition 12 was "In the hand of your wife who has just had a phone call from your girl friend."

Jim

RhinoDefense
April 19, 2012, 02:19 PM
You should read journals of the men who fought during the formation of our country to gain insight on the term. Load and lock was used long before the 1903 Springfield.

I didn't say he couldn't pronounce it, I said it was easier for him to say "lock and load" than "load and lock".

Shoobee
April 19, 2012, 02:19 PM
Thanks guys for the backgrounder and the info on Cooper.

Looks like this fine gentleman was a fellow marine.

From the wiki, here are his conditions fwiw:

Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

I will read-up on him now.

I personally agree with Condition 2. That is the one I am most familiar with. Whenever I walked my post at night this is what I used. And for imminent danger, it was good enough for me. I practiced drawing quickly and pulling the hammer back with my thumb at the same time, same as 1800s gunslingers with their single action Colts would do.

Condition 4 is what we normally used in the military routinely, by regulation, when nothing was hot.

I did not mean to start a debate on 'lock and load.' As I recall, by the 1970s in the military this meant lock a magazine into the magazine well, and load the weapon by releasing the slide to travel forward on the 1911A1, or the bolt forward on the M16A1. I know originally it meant something completely different with muskets, when they used the half-cock during loading.

Thanks for the informative explanations, Everyone.

X-Rap
April 19, 2012, 02:24 PM
Wow Shoobee
A Californian, shooter, Marine who hasn't heard of Jeff Cooper and the conditions?? Where you been living under a rock? How about the colors?

Shoobee
April 19, 2012, 02:44 PM
He never came up at Quantico when I was there.

I remember mom, apple pie, and the flag though.

And "this is my rifle; my rifle is my best friend ... ."

Since those times, my 45ACP has become my best friend, with the Mossberg 12 gauge in a close 2nd place.

Greg528iT
April 19, 2012, 03:17 PM
Condition 12 was "In the hand of your wife who has just had a phone call from your girl friend."

It just needed repeating. :D

Shoobee
April 19, 2012, 03:25 PM
You could call the wife-girlfriend thing code black too!

Smokin Gator
April 19, 2012, 03:41 PM
At the point where the 1911 was manufactured and issued, or out into the publics hands, I can't imagine it would have been to long before someone thought it was a good idea to carry it with one in the chamber, hammer cocked and thumb safety engaged. They may not have refered to is as "cocked and locked". I don't know when the first person would have decided to teach this as the standard manner of carry to a group, law enforcement, or someone else. Mark

Shoobee
April 19, 2012, 03:45 PM
Not sure why you think that is so intuitive, Gator??

Condition One seems inherently unsafe to me when returned to a holster like that.

With a safety spring on the firing pin, Condition Two makes the most sense to me for returning it to the holster.

It would seem intuitive to me that Conditions Zero and One are most appropriate and safe only for out of the holster and in your hand, gun pointing upwards, until you have identified a target to engage.

But that is what all the hooplah is about, regarding cocked and locked in your holster.

At this point you need to know what kind of firing pin safety is built into your 45ACP or other semi-auto pistol.

In the case of my CZ, it has a firing pin safety, ergo Condition Two is safe and appropriate for carrying. Noting also that my CZ does not have a grip safety, nor would I want it to have one, therefore one more reason why Condition One would seem to be inherently unsafe if returned to a holster or pocket that way for the CZ.

At least now I know how the notion(s) got started and who started it/them. I would have liked to talk to LTC Cooper about how he carried for military applications versus competition scenarios. But alas he has gone to greener hunting grounds.

It's just like anything else. If Moses said to do something then you will have about 10 million or so people following it, maybe. If Jesus said something else, then 1 billion or so people probably will. It just all depends on who Moses or Jesus is in any particular case.

SlamFire1
April 19, 2012, 04:34 PM
Many users of the M1911 justify carrying the M1911 in “condition one” by stating that the pistol was designed to be carried "cocked and locked".

Unfortunately this claim is not correct, the M1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked.

John Browning’s Models’ 1900, Model 1902, 1903 Pocket Model, Military Model 1905, M1909, M1910 did not have thumb safety locks. There are safeties; early on there is a hammer blocking device. It was a sight safety. The user pushed the back of the rear sight down, and that blocked the hammer from the firing pin. It did not last long. The grip safety was added later and stayed all the way through to the M1911.

I recommend buying “The Government Models” by William H.D. Goddard to see the wonderful pictures and progression of Brownings automatic pistol design. I also recommend the “Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1911 and 1911A1 Charles W. Clawson”, but the pictures are not as good.

The first thumb safety lock appears on the Model 1910 slant handle. It was added because the Cavalry apposed the adoption of a semiautomatic pistol because of their concerns about multiple accidental discharges while mounted. The Cavalry wanted to stay with their revolvers. As the primary user of a handgun, the Cavalry had the biggest vote at the table. John Browning’s thumb safety lock was needed to overcome the Cavalry's objections against a semi automatic pistol.


On this page is a long extract from a 1910 Board of Officer’s evaluating two mechanical locks submitted by John Browning on the 1910 prototype. I am using only the bit pertinent to this discussion:

From Pg 56, Colt 45 Service pistol

The board is of the opinion that the safety device for locking the slide and hammer when the latter is in the cocked position is necessary for this kind of pistol, especially as as the majority of the pistols will be used by the mounted services
Pg 51, Cavalry Board Test, 11 March 1910, excerpts from the Cavalry Boards comments on the M1909 semiautomatic pistol (which did not have the thumb safety)


In the hands of the expert and in the hands of an officer accustomed to pistols of all classes the automatic pistol appears to be a wonderful weapon, but it is too complicated, or apparently so, and there is too much to learn about it to make it a desirable weapon for the ordinary soldier.

When used mounted there is a certain amount of uncertainty and nervousness apparent in the rider which militates greatly against its usefulness and which would confine it to the very best riders with unusual self control. For the ordinary trooper it would be dangerous even at the usual mounted pistol practice, where with the ordinary pistol, in spite of the most watchful precautions, accidents frequently occur, and where fatalities are only averted by the nimbleness of the onlookers



These pistols, and the M1911 were designed to be carried in “Condition two”, that is a round in the chamber with the hammer down. The thumb lock safety was to be engaged to make the pistol safe when the user’s other hand was occupied. The manual of arms from 1913 clearly shows that the hammer was to be lowered (using two hands) when the M1911 was holstered.

Army 1913 Small Arms Manual:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/SmallArmsManual1913Coverpage.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/SmallArmsManualpgs90-91.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/SmallArmsManualpgs92-93.jpg


If you cannot read the text on the bottom of pgs 91 and 92:

Pg 91. If the pistol is to be kept in the hand and and not to be fired at once, engage the safety lock with the thumb of the right hand. If the pistol is to be carried in the holster, remove safety lock, if on, and lower the hammer fully down.

Pg 92. (Caution) The pistol must never be placed in the holster until hammer is fully down.
Italics are in the original.

So why did the Army change the regulations?:Hatcher’s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, page 95, provides the clue:


“It is the danger of accidental discharge when thus lowering the hammer with one hand while on horseback that caused the Army to change the regulations some years ago so as to require the automatic to be carried with the hammer cocked and the safety on.

It is obvious that accidental discharges occurred trying to put the pistol in "condition two". The Army had to find an alternative, something that did not require redesign of the M1911, and so the Army changed the procedures so that the pistol was carried in the flap holster, "cocked and locked".

Jeff Cooper was a WWII veteran and so were many of the participants at the early leather slaps. It is my belief that they justified carrying 1911's cocked and locked by pointing at WW2 manuals.

Eventually this morphed into a religion, with basic tenents and beliefs.

When Moses came down from the mountain top
Bearing the one true gun
Commanding that every trooper and every Cop
Shall carry it in Condition one

Thus sayeth the Lord.

This image is in the 1913 manual. This pistol has features of early M1911 prototypes, and no thumb safety. It is obvious that the manual writer had access to the test board, test articles, possibly to John Browning himself.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/Scan0002.jpg

Shoobee
April 19, 2012, 05:10 PM
Great research, Slamfire, thanks!

Sicari
April 19, 2012, 06:31 PM
Magnificent post.
Thank you Slamfire.

MICHAEL T
April 19, 2012, 07:21 PM
Like others, I say Cooper pushed the C&L I have a Peterson published mag from 1984 .

Its a 1911 special issue. In it they show how to lower the Hammer safely so pistol can be carried in conditition 2 or kept by bed .
I carried a Govt model for years in 2 . Its only after all these bobbed hammers and beavertails that I felt forced to go to condition 1 . I still myself perfer condition 2

My self I think the 1911 has been ruined by all the add on junk that has become the must have. This thanks to the shooting games . I like the spur hammer, no beaver, small safety. normal slide release , short mag release, funnel is for putting gas in my mower .Not for loading a mag. And thank you for ruining the looks of my slide by the cheese grater on the front. Don't need the full length guid rod either.
Browning build the perfect 1911 and Cooper and his game players ruined it. All to be faster on a clock with a pistol that will never be carried. But now we suffer with their add ons.

SharpsDressedMan
April 19, 2012, 09:31 PM
I second Michael T on his points about the 1911 not needing the over abundance of makeovers. They detract from the nice clean looks of the gun.

shep854
April 19, 2012, 10:06 PM
Shoobee, Semper Fidelis!
I was at Quantico in 1975; when I FAMFIRED the 1911A1 (never qualified), I didn't hear 'cocked & locked' either. I did read about it in a Cooper book from the '60s, but not with the Marines.
It wasn't until the late '80s, when I started getting serious about exercising my 2A rights and started doing a lot of reading, that I saw a lot about 'C&L' and other Cooperisms.

Smokin Gator
April 20, 2012, 12:55 AM
"Not sure why you think that is so intuitive, Gator??"

I'm just saying that I don't think people would figure out all of the possible conditions that a 1911 could be carried in, but that it would take 50 or 60 years for someone to figure out that one possible condition would be "cocked and locked". Also, just as today with law enforcement and some military, you are often training with the lowest common denominator in mind. If you train a large group, they can't train everyone to use the same gear and tactics as some very highly trained and experienced people will use. A 1911 isn't the best choice for someone who has never shot before, goes to a police academy and passes the shooting portion. Then after he becomes an officer only goes to the range when required to qualify. Someone who is an experienced shooter, practices and trains regularly, it's a different story. Mark

Jim Watson
April 20, 2012, 01:13 AM
Condition 12 was "In the hand of your wife who has just had a phone call from your girl friend."

Well, maybe.
Jan Stevenson did a series on conditions of readiness in a gunzine years ago.
After #4 they got pretty weird until:
"Magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down, safety engaged, in a flap holster with the flap strap buckled down. Condition 13." Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it? But that was German L.E. policy with the 7.65/.32 Walther PP until the Baader-Meinhoff Gang and the Red Army Faction stimulated them to go to the P5,6,7 series of 9mms and faster rigs.

My boss in my early career was a WWII- Korea Navy vet and I read the Bluejacket's Handbook in the bookcase along with the engineering texts. It was instructed that the pistol be kept with the chamber empty (Condition 3, "half loaded") but if action was imminent, a round should be chambered, the safety catch engaged and the gun placed ready to hand on the parapet or musette bag. No fast draw from the holster in those days.

1911Tuner
April 20, 2012, 03:58 AM
Condition One seems inherently unsafe to me when returned to a holster like that.

Well...It's not. Not really. Although no loaded gun can be completely safe, C-1 is as safe as any loaded gun can be as long as the safety is engaged and the finger is off the trigger during reholstering...and with a small repositioning of the hand, the grip safety will engage and block the trigger.

The different conditions are options. No more and no less. I like Condition 2 carry under certain circumstances. It offers the lockwork better protection from the things that can get in between the hammer and frame and render the gun inoperable. So does the standard, un-lowered ejection port too, by the way. Condition 2 in a full flap holster makes it nearly impenetrable...but I digress.

I also like Condition 1 under most conditions.

Browning designed the perfect 1911.

No really. The 1911 was designed by a committee, with certain features...like the grip and manual safeties...being requested by that committee. Browning just gave'em what they wanted. If he had any intent at all on the recommended/preferred carry condition, it was probably at half-cock...since that's how he designed all his other exposed hammer guns. Beyond that, he probably didn't give a rip. If the truth was known, he was likely pretty tired of the whole affair by the time it was finished.

shep854
April 20, 2012, 07:52 AM
While C&L is as safe as it gets mechanically, I much preferred a thumb-break strap that goes between the hammer and slide, when I carried a GM. Belt and suspenders, man.

SlamFire1
April 20, 2012, 09:44 AM
Considering that most of the Officers at the pistol boards would have carried Colt SAA for most of their careers, they would not have had a second thought carrying a M1911 with a round in the chamber, hammer down, and thumb cocking it when needed. That was the way this pistol was intended to be carried.

Original M1911’s had big wide hammer spurs and the grip safety was not in the way of thumb cocking.

I am not a fan of cocked and locked as I have had the safety wipe off while carrying. If you search, you will find others who have had the same experience.

Then there is the issue of having to remember to wipe the safety off, when you want to shoot the thing. Cliff Smith mentioned in an article that a “Nationally” ranked shooters have forgotten to take the safety off while going through some of the courses at Thunder Ranch.

Plus there is the mechanical issue, I don’t like the fact the thumb safety is a sear blocking safety. Not a lot of metal there to hold back the hammer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/M1911Cutaway.jpg

Beavertails are more comfortable to shoot, my series 80 Colt Combat Elite ate a hole in the web of my hand with the factory grip safety, I have fired M1911’s with WW2 period grip safeties and experienced hammer bite. Even though the beavertail is more comfortable, it blocks access to the hammer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/M1911SAbeavertailcloseup.jpg

Grip safeties have malfunctioned and true Cooperties disable the grip safety.

Carrying the M1911 with a round in the chamber and hammer down is relatively safe, it is just lowering the hammer became a lot less safe with beavertails and later hammers.

stoney1666
April 20, 2012, 12:34 PM
"lock and load" was use on the M1 rifle on the range in 1957.

1911Tuner
April 20, 2012, 02:12 PM
I am not a fan of cocked and locked as I have had the safety wipe off while carrying.

Doesn't really mean anything. The thumb safety was added for short-term reholstering in order to free up both hands when the horse gets unruly...not for carrying. Even in those unenlightened days, the boys in the think tank realized that a man under stress might forget to get his finger out of the trigger guard. A holstered 1911 in Condition Zero still has the grip safety blocking the trigger, and the half-cock notch in case the hammer hooks both shear off at the same instant..which is highly unlikely.

I don’t like the fact the thumb safety is a sear blocking safety. Not a lot of metal there to hold back the hammer.

There's nothing holding the hammer. If the sear were to suddenly turn to powder, the hammer would fall, and it'll wipe the safety off faster than you can with your thumb.

But...Contrary to popular belief, the sear just isn't that fragile.

For the record...I once used a Dremel cut-off wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from the sear crown, and the (original/captive) half-cock notch still grabbed the sear and stopped the hammer short of hitting the firing pin.

Greg528iT
April 20, 2012, 03:45 PM
I am not a fan of cocked and locked as I have had the safety wipe off while carrying

I might suggest taking your 1911 in to a qualified gun smith and having them refit a new thumb safety that has a better detente to engage the spring. My 3, 1911s have a definite click ON and OFF. It takes a deliberate act of the thumb to change it's position.

SlamFire1
April 20, 2012, 04:53 PM
I might suggest taking your 1911 in to a qualified gun smith and having them refit a new thumb safety that has a better detente to engage the spring. My 3, 1911s have a definite click ON and OFF. It takes a deliberate act of the thumb to change it's position.

Thanks for the suggestion, but now I only take my M1911’s to the range for fun.

Incidentally I have had this Les Baer roll enough in my hand that the thumb safety was bumped to the “on” position and I did not know it till I pulled the trigger. The pistol did not go bang, and that made an impression, just as much as having the safety swipe off. This is a target pistol and for whatever reason, Les Baer made the safety very easy to rotate. I do not plan to spend time or effort on this safety or that of any of my other M1911’s. They are fun guns now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/LesBauerM1911Wadcutterleftside.jpg

These are my primary carry pistols, which one I carry depends on my mood.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Pistols/M624CentennialAirweight.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Pistols/ReducedM638AirweightMarkingsDSCN-1.jpg
If I were to carry a 45 ACP for any reason, this is what I would carry. A decocker, no external safeties, first shot either a long double action pull or thumb cocked.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/SigP220.jpg

Shoobee
April 23, 2012, 02:28 PM
The Sigs are beautiful, well crafted, highly functional guns, yes. The Sig was in the running when I decided to come back to a 45ACP again myself.

My first owned firearm was the S&W model 39 during college daze.

Next I progressed to the G/I Springfield 45ACP after graduation. (G/I = government issued.)

After my tour, and return to grad school, I got a Colt Woodsman 22LR for backpacking, which I used to feed myself and others during pack trips in the mountains, as I was trying to deprogram and return to civilian life. (No, Captain, I will not attack the machine gun nest in a frontal assault with my platoon, so why don't you just nuke it instead?!)

After landing a job and career in California, I discovered the Sierra's, a Spanish word which means mountains, and these mountains are packed with black bears and mountain lions in addition to beautiful scenery and a few deer here and there, so I got rid of both the S&W 9mm and the Colt 22LR and replaced them with a 44 rem mag revolver instead. This is a huge cannon of a pistol, not very good for home or neighborhood applications since you cannot tuck it in your pocket by any stretch of the imagination, and it has a very low rate of fire due to its extreme recoil. But I still needed it for backcountry hiking and backpacking.

So I took a look at the trusty 45ACP again, made a list of what I wanted on it (basically everything that my S&W model 39 9mm had had on it), and decided between the Sig Sauer, the Ruger, and the CZ (had never heard of CZ before).

I agree that the Sig is a perfect choice. I went with the CZ though. Could have gone either way.

As was mentioned for being desirable, the CZ has a clean design without a lot of excess safeties on it. I absolutely did not want a magazine safety nor a grip safety, although I realize these two are great for fools who need more foolproofing. I am happy with just the single thumb safety, which is the only one I ever use, for between condition 0 or 1 outside the holster. It also has a half-cock safety but I have been talked out of ever using that again. Hammer-down on a chambered round in condition 2 is adequate for all my needs.

I do not know if a 45ACP will take out a black bear or mountain lion. Everyone assumes that it would, but I just have not seen any data or field reports. If it does, then I will re-sell the .44 since I am truly in love with the 45ACP again.

I keep my 45ACP in condition 2, as I always had while walking my post during military daze. I checked the literature to make sure the CZ has a firing pin spring safety, and I also checked the parts and assembly diagram to make sure of it, and it does.

The nice thing about a double action trigger is that with the chamber loaded and the hammer down, you can pull through the first shot in double action very quickly. From then on you are in semi-automatic single action, for the rest of your double-tap, or whatever else you plan to do. So condition 2 makes the most sense to me, still.

But I will remember condition 1 for holstering in case I am ever on horseback!

Thanks everyone for the thorough research and explanations on these various issues and all of your contributions.

On final thought, on G/I weapons, from a song I learned in basic training:

G/I beans and G/I gravy;
Gee I wish I'd joined the Navy;
Four square meals served every day,
As the Fleet then sails away!
Left oh right oh lay-eft.

If I ever had to go back into the military, I would definitely bring my CZ with me this time. Although the Springfield was fine at the time.

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