Worst myths you've heard about guns which are meant to scare the general public?


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BehindTheIronCurtain
April 19, 2012, 04:07 PM
As I learn more about guns and own more and more of them, I realize that many of the myths I've heard as a kid are just BS.

I remember when I was in the 7th grade and a uniformed nypd officer came to teach us about gun violence and how terrible guns are. The entire visit was put together by the people's republic to get us while we're young and teach us how dangerous guns are. Interestingly enough, we would also be visited by another cop to teach about drugs too.

Anyway, after telling us how dangerous they were, he told us a story. A cop was in his basement dry firing at a wall for what reason, I don't know, apparently you have to do this in the nypd? His wife calls and while talking to her he loads a round into the chamber and forgets it's there. Hangs up, and continues his dry firing, but oh no, there is a live round in the chamber and he shoots the wall. The bullet ricochets off the basement wall, goes up into the ceiling, and into the baby's crip, killing him/her.

After careful research, I dub this story BS, even myth busters shot 45 cals into iron only to see them shatter.

Anyone else care to hare a BS story?

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MedWheeler
April 19, 2012, 04:33 PM
That having a gun for home defense is unsafe because one would be like 42 more times more likely to be killed by gunfire (or other criminal activity) than to kill a home intruder. This argument/myth fails because it does not take into account incidences in which a gun is used to successfully stop an intrusion without an intruder being killed.
That teens carrying handguns are 40+ times more likely to die in gun violence than those not in possession. Duh.. the vast majority of teens carrying handguns are already in violation of law by doing so, and are doing so because they are already involved in high-risk behavior, such as gang activity or criminal activity.
Those are two I hear over and over. There are more, but I can't stay online right now to type what would end up being a diatribe over it.

chevyman097
April 19, 2012, 04:36 PM
45acp will take a mans arm clean off causing him to do flipping whirlwinds through the window behind him.....

Carl N. Brown
April 19, 2012, 04:47 PM
The evil prototypical Saturday Night Special, the .22 short RG 10, fired a magical bullet that would enter the chest, tear about the body, ricochet off bones, and end up anywhere, even the leg. (.22 short from a revolver with a 2" barrel will often fail to penetrate the sternum or skull, and penetration in flesh is a few inches. A .22 short once penetrated a man's chest, entered a vein, got pumped through the heart, circulated down the aorta, and stuck in the femoral artery in the thigh. Mis-reporting of the autopsy results led to this urban legend. In a similar manner, birdshot with a penetration of just one inch, may enter the circulatory system and float in the blood flow and end up almost anywhere in the body.)

Plus the evil RG10 was so poorly made it would explode like a hand grenade and kill the shooter as often as not. (The mass of gun powder in a .22 short equals a baby aspirin; a hand grenade contains several ounces of explosive. Even anti-gunner Robert Sherrill admitted that story was the bunk: in all his research he never found a single death or injury from an exploding RG10.)

An anti-gun demonstration on the evils of the demon assault weapon, and the danger of allowing the ban to lapse, showed a pre-ban AK rifle blowing holes through a concrete block, then demonstrated a ban-compliant AK rifle fired with no effect. Even CNN had to admit the test was bogus: off camera, the ban-compliant rifle was shot into the dirt, not at the cinderblock. Both guns would shoot through a concrete block. Any common deer rifle will shoot through a cinder block.

And on the subject of the Assault Weapon Ban, the news would talk about banning semi-automatic rifles, but show full-automatic machineguns blazing away at 600 rpm.

Ooops, guess that's four.

And the Kellerman/New England Journal of Medicine 47, er 42, er 2.7 times more likely figure got revised down to 40% more likely, or 1.4 times.

highorder
April 19, 2012, 04:48 PM
My favorite? Guns "go off" from handling or being dropped.

Guns go off when you pull the trigger.

MrDig
April 19, 2012, 04:52 PM
"It just went off"
Probably the greatest gun myth told. Guns don't "go off" unless a booger hook hits the bang switch

zxcvbob
April 19, 2012, 04:58 PM
Guns are racist. :rolleyes:

SlamFire1
April 19, 2012, 04:58 PM
"A fifty caliber rifle will shoot through a tank a mile away."

I think I first read it in the Chicago Tribune, this URL indicates it started with an AP article in an Indianopolis newspaper.


http://fiftycal.org/frenchrebuttal0511.php

Carl N. Brown
April 19, 2012, 05:00 PM
I wish I had saved my copy of an old alarmist skreed "Menace of the Sex Deviant". It contained the kind of scare stories used to promote gun control, prohibition of alcohol, reefer madness and bans on Vault of Horror comics. If you make out on lovers lane, an escaped lunatic will leave hanging on the door of your car ... a hook! Be afraid, be very afraid, but authority will save you.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 19, 2012, 05:06 PM
An AK 47 will fire both their rounds and our own rounds. (7.62 x 39 and 5.56 x 45 from the same gun)

Skribs
April 19, 2012, 05:15 PM
Probably the worst, for me, is the belief that having a gun will make you more likely to commit a crime (or try to change the laws so you can commit violent acts while not breaking the law). This means that people associate guns with criminals, and don't want to associate with guns for belief that they will go down a dark path because of them.

Bigdog57
April 19, 2012, 07:03 PM
As reported by a CNN talking head during the search for the Beltway killers a few years back.....

"The .223Rem from an AR-15 can make accurate headshots at 5,000 yards, and is so deadly because the bullet SPINS!"

Yeah, that one deserved a major league face palm. :eek:

JCinAK
April 19, 2012, 07:30 PM
Black guns are somehow more deadly than hunting rifles/shotguns.

tomaz45
April 19, 2012, 07:30 PM
" A 50 cal BMG Sniper rifle can bring down an airliner"
Hypotheticly, perhaps, but ask those greatest generation fighter pilots from WWII just how many rounds it took to get a "Kill". My answer to this statement of "fact" is "Show me the documention where this has happened" Statistics will also show that people who take a conceal carry certification course are 80% LESS LIKELY to be involved in a deadly force encounter than "average citizen". Why?? Look at the demograghics of who takes CCW classes (mid aged and seniors who want to obey the law).

Murphy4570
April 19, 2012, 07:34 PM
As reported by a CNN talking head during the search for the Beltway killers a few years back.....

"The .223Rem from an AR-15 can make accurate headshots at 5,000 yards, and is so deadly because the bullet SPINS!"

Yeah, that one deserved a major league face palm.

Wow. Guess we better introduce that guy to a little thing called barrel rifling. Been around since the 1860s?

AntiSpin
April 19, 2012, 07:54 PM
I think there were rifled muskets in the Revolutionary War.

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 19, 2012, 08:19 PM
That gun owners are violent people just waiting for a chance to harm someone.

Curator
April 19, 2012, 08:36 PM
A woman with a handgun is more likely to have the gun taken from her by the Bad Guy and then have it used on her or her loved ones. That seems to be the principal scare tactic of the League of Women Voters' ( a supposedly "non-partisan" group) local la Presidente, along with "Stand your Ground" legislation causing vigilante mentality.

1911Tuner
April 19, 2012, 08:46 PM
Guy in a gun shop talking about the German MG-42 that fired so fast there were three bullets in the barrel at the same time. He became rather hostile when it was gently explained that having three bullets moving in the barrel at the same time was impossible.

JohnKSa
April 19, 2012, 08:54 PM
having three bullets moving in the barrel at the same time was impossible120,000 rounds per minute IS a bit high, isn't it... :D

Basically you'd be firing a round every half a millisecond. 2,000 of them in a second.

The Lone Haranguer
April 19, 2012, 09:19 PM
Semi-automatic military-style rifles "can spray 600 rounds in a minute from the hip!"

Teachu2
April 19, 2012, 09:26 PM
Guns kill people.

armoredman
April 19, 2012, 09:35 PM
Accidental Shootings. Almost all "accidental" shootings are actually explained by negilgance.

ThorinNNY
April 19, 2012, 09:36 PM
Doofus Reporter called a Hi Point carbine an "assault rifle " in a recent newspaper article. Guess that makes the article a lie written by a truth-assaulting anti-Second Amendment agitator!.

JRH6856
April 19, 2012, 10:00 PM
Guns have no place in a civilized society.

megatronrules
April 19, 2012, 10:07 PM
The Glock is plastic and can pass through a metal detector,and yes I've actually had a few people say this to me.

Buck Kramer
April 19, 2012, 10:12 PM
Though not entirely false. I hate hearing the news go on about how some gun can spray 900 or 1500 or 20,000 rounds a minute.

Yes, its true, assuming you don't have to reload that 30 round mag :banghead:

Romeo 33 Delta
April 19, 2012, 10:19 PM
Only police should have guns because regular people are just not to be trusted with something so dangerous.

Which explains why the former Chief of the Fond du Lac, Wisconsin PD recently shot himself in the hand while cleaning his handgun ... but I didn't!:D

stl_303
April 19, 2012, 10:39 PM
"Obama wants to take away all our guns and repeal the 2nd Amendment".

denton
April 19, 2012, 10:44 PM
The only purpose of a gun is to kill people.

The AK-47 is a sinister weapon, more powerful and dangerous than any other.

There is something unusual and sinister about having hollow point bullets.

Machine guns and grenades are available at gun shows with no background check.

There is a loophole in the gun laws that allows firearms to be sold without a background check.

If you put up a "no guns allowed" sign, criminals will not use them.

Someone else is responsible for your safety and well-being.

newfalguy101
April 19, 2012, 10:57 PM
An AK 47 will fire both their rounds and our own rounds. (7.62 x 39 and 5.56 x 45 from the same gun)
Actually, thats true.......


It wont be accurate, or cycle, BUT, it will chamber and fire.

303tom
April 19, 2012, 10:57 PM
"Obama wants to take away all our guns and repeal the 2nd Amendment".
That is not a MYTH................

DoubleTapDrew
April 19, 2012, 11:28 PM
The Glock is plastic and can pass through a metal detector,and yes I've actually had a few people say this to me.
LOL I remember this one. There was an investagative report on one of the major news networks that informed the sheep that glocks are ceramic and will pass right through airport metal detectors. Lying idiots.
That lie even got a cameo in die hard 2.

Positivity
April 19, 2012, 11:40 PM
"Anyone can easily convert a semi auto to a full auto with just a power drill!"

SabbathWolf
April 19, 2012, 11:55 PM
This DEA guy thinks he is the "only one in the room professional enough to carry a Glock Fo-tee......

What an idiot.....lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU&feature=related

Carl N. Brown
April 19, 2012, 11:59 PM
@#34 ^ No, it takes a shoe string.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 20, 2012, 12:00 AM
It wont be accurate, or cycle, BUT, it will chamber and fire.

The myth is that it would cycle but it would already be inaccurate because after all, it is an AK 47.

huntsman
April 20, 2012, 12:48 AM
I want a Daisy Redrider BB-gun with a compass in the stock

You'll shoot your eye out

jerkface11
April 20, 2012, 01:03 AM
That wearing a hoodie will get you shot.

allaroundhunter
April 20, 2012, 01:07 AM
That wearing a hoodie will get you shot.

....too soon.....

tlmkr38
April 20, 2012, 01:16 AM
"Guns have no place in a civilized society."

Humm in that case I'm thinking the Police, Secret Service, and all other government agencys that have firearms should turn them in first to prove that they have no place....

I mean what would they need them for? If everyone gives up their guns then there will be no need as there will be no crime..... And if you believe that.....

Deus Machina
April 20, 2012, 02:22 AM
I've heard the version "Guns have no place in polite society." And I agree.
A gun has no place to be in polite society. That's what the holster is for. :)

Society isn't always polite, though.

My favorite, and I debunked this in front of a whole classroom at school, is that "You are X times more likely to be shot with your own gun if you keep one in the house, than if you don't own one."
Well, duh, Sherlock. You're more likely to be involved in a road accident if you're in a car. How would you get shot with your own gun, that you don't own?

I don't care which side they're on, I love the "...oh yeah." look on some peoples' face.

SabbathWolf
April 20, 2012, 03:33 AM
....Well, duh, Sherlock. You're more likely to be involved in a road accident if you're in a car. How would you get shot with your own gun, that you don't own?.....




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif

1911Tuner
April 20, 2012, 08:06 AM
120,000 rounds per minute IS a bit high, isn't it...

Yeah...not to mention that when the breech opens to load the next round, all sorts of unpleasant things will happen about a foot from your nose.

Flopsweat
April 20, 2012, 08:18 AM
Here's one of my favorites: "Heat seeking bullets" :rolleyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRQqieimwLQ

FM12
April 20, 2012, 11:20 AM
Not only can glocks pass thru metal detectors, thaey are also undetectable by x ray machines.

I read it on the interweb, it must be true!

Dain Bramage
April 20, 2012, 11:42 AM
My favorite? Guns "go off" from handling or being dropped.

Guns go off when you pull the trigger.

All the news articles about the recent Bremerton, WA school shooting claim the hangun fired from inside a backpack, after the backpack was dropped to the floor. I've only found one referece to the make of the gun, included here. The Kitsap Sun story claims it is an "H&K .45-caliber handgun".

Kitsap Sun Article (http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2012/mar/05/mother-boyfriend-face-criminal-charges-in-school/)

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 20, 2012, 12:04 PM
"Obama wants to take away all our guns and repeal the 2nd Amendment".

He does want to. His books and speeches demonstrate this.

He just doesn't have the political ability to make it happen right now.

CoRoMo
April 20, 2012, 12:13 PM
Every other news story that involves a handgun will include the line, "The handgun was not registered to him".

It's permeated into Joe Citizen's beliefs too.

I had an employee, who would never have dreamed of owning a firearm until he began working around a handful of gun nuts, became interested in maybe getting a revolver for himself.

Eventually, he asked about the registration process. I told him that 'There's no such thing as registration, just buy it and own it'. He then asked, "Well what if I WANT to register it, how do I do that?".

NG VI
April 20, 2012, 12:27 PM
Accidental Shootings. Almost all "accidental" shootings are actually explained by negilgance.


Or suicide.

JellyJar
April 20, 2012, 12:42 PM
The biggest myth of all!!!

That gun-banners never ever lie!

:cuss:

rajb123
April 20, 2012, 12:46 PM
Scary Myth: The Stand Your Ground (SYG) law in Florida addresses gun rights and gun ownership.

Fact: The SYG law does not involve gun ownership or gun rights but it does say that a person may use deadly force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat first.

Deadly force can applied in many forms including, knives, hatchets, punching, kicking, strangling, choking, extreme force with a heavy blunt object, slamming a person's head against the pavement, etc.

Skribs
April 20, 2012, 12:59 PM
I'm actually okay with the plastic Glock in Die Hard 2, because it wasn't an actual Glock model speficied (Glock 7) and it is a fictional movie.

Dain Bramage
April 20, 2012, 01:26 PM
I'm actually okay with the plastic Glock in Die Hard 2, because it wasn't an actual Glock model speficied (Glock 7) and it is a fictional movie.

What's so hard to believe about a porcelain Glock that costs more than you earned last month, in a universe where wet jet fuel (essentially kerosene) burns like a fuse, even in mid-air?

ThatGuyHank
April 20, 2012, 01:26 PM
Read a book arguing both sides of owning firearms and one guy writing against them proclaimed that too many people are in love with "sniper rifles". He proceeded to call the kel tec sub-9 a "folding sniper rifle":rolleyes: because it could accurately make headshots at 100 yards and hit a man sized target at 150 yards. I could barely control my laughter. Imagine the look on his face when he hears that mosin nagants can engage a man sized target at 300 yards and only cost 100$ plus bayonet:neener:

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 20, 2012, 01:28 PM
Unfortunately, some states, like mine, DO have handgun registration.

RCWFL
April 20, 2012, 01:47 PM
Myth: You can not own "military grade weapons" or "assault weapons."

The sad thing is I heard this years after the AWB was repealed.

saltydog452
April 20, 2012, 01:55 PM
'Slick Willie' Clinton talking about Black Talon acting like a high RPM buzz saw as it travels through the body would rank close to the top of silliness.

salty

Skribs
April 20, 2012, 02:18 PM
Dain, I believe it is called creative license. Without imagination into fake physics, I don't believe we would know as much as we do about real physics.

brickeyee
April 20, 2012, 02:32 PM
Though not entirely false. I hate hearing the news go on about how some gun can spray 900 or 1500 or 20,000 rounds a minute.

Yes, its true, assuming you don't have to reload that 30 round mag

The size of a magazine has nothing to do with rate of fire.

A higher rate just empties the magazine faster.
It does not alter the rate of fire.

Loosedhorse
April 20, 2012, 02:56 PM
Myth 1. All gun owners are just like that monster Zimmerman you've heard about.
Myth 2. Zimmerman is just like that monster Zimmerman you've heard about.

;)

SabbathWolf
April 20, 2012, 03:02 PM
The size of a magazine has nothing to do with rate of fire.

A higher rate just empties the magazine faster.
It does not alter the rate of fire.


Absolutely correct.
The cyclic rate of fire for the M16A2 for example is around 800 rounds per minute.
But nobody makes 800 round magazines.

Coop45
April 20, 2012, 03:34 PM
The AR15 is an assault rifle.

ol' scratch
April 20, 2012, 05:09 PM
That the second amendment applies to the militia (even after Heller).

SKS rifles are like a 30-06 hunting rifle.

An AK is more powerful than a "normal" hunting rifle.

An AK can penetrate body armor, but a hunting rifle can't.

An AK shoots a .308 Winchester (THANKS STUPID FUTURE WEAPONS!!!)

That if we didn't have guns, crime would be nonexistent.

Bayonet lugs make a rifle more dangerous because someone can use a bayonet to stab someone while they reload.

A barrel shroud is that thingy that flips up.

"Assault rifles" (What the media calls all rifles that are semiautomatic or have a flash supressor) have no hunting or sporting purposes.

A 50 cal rifle can be used to shoot down an airplane.

A Norinco type 56 SKS is an assault rifle, but any other SKS is somehow less likely to "assault" someone.

You can't legally own a Machine Gun.

Semi auto rifles are machine guns because they look scary.

Kiln
April 20, 2012, 05:20 PM
Plus the evil RG10 was so poorly made it would explode like a hand grenade and kill the shooter as often as not. (The mass of gun powder in a .22 short equals a baby aspirin; a hand grenade contains several ounces of explosive. Even anti-gunner Robert Sherrill admitted that story was the bunk: in all his research he never found a single death or injury from an exploding RG10.)

This is what I try to explain to people when they try and tell me their buddy had a J22 that blew up and seriously injured them but the anti's damage has been done.

My other favorite is "I had an RG (insert model) that used to fire two shots at once, one out the barrel and one out of the next cylinder".

Carl N. Brown
April 21, 2012, 07:23 AM
Titles of gun control skreeds like
"This Very Day a Gun May Kill You!" (Carl Bakal) and
"Every Handgun is Aimed at You!" (Josh Sugarmann).

Do da math (its so simple even an "innumerate faith-based gun-hugger" like me can do it):

Take the oft-quoted figure of 30,000 shooting deaths versus 2,437,163 total deaths in USA (CDC 2011). "This very day a lot of things are more likely to kill you besides guns." That might make people look at health and safety concerns in areas of their life that they can immediately control.

The National Academy of Sciences in reviewing gun control policies in 2004 pointed out about "Gun Buybacks" that there were 6,500 handgun homicides per year out of 65 million handguns; therefore, to get one potential murder weapon in a year, a buyback would have to randomly select 10,000 handguns. "One out of ten thousand handguns is aimed at you!" is not quite as scary and would not sell as many books. (Even with a scary title, Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #2,985,133 in Books)

Odd Job
April 21, 2012, 09:10 AM
The two I have heard most are:

1) A hollow point explodes in your body.
2) A Glock doesn't show up on X-ray.

ADKWOODSMAN
April 21, 2012, 10:05 AM
A pistol round will not go through a car door. In the old junk car in the woods, at 14 years old, we disproved that with a .22 lr rifle.

Midwest
April 21, 2012, 11:09 AM
http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/KY

"Kentucky has weak gun laws that help feed the illegal gun market and allow the sale of guns without background checks, according to the Brady Campaign."

I can go to my local gun store and buy a new firearm without a background check?

Cool..I wasn't aware of that....

Apuuli
April 21, 2012, 12:05 PM
Hollow points are "cop killer" bullets.

Odd Job
April 21, 2012, 01:03 PM
Hollow points are "cop killer" bullets.

No no no, my good man. What you are referring to is the Black Talons. Those things just shred the cops' kevlar vests.
Or...you could be referring to the Nyclads. Those are teflon coated, no bullet proof vest can stop them!

SFCRandall
April 21, 2012, 01:18 PM
Just the sound of racking the slide on a pump action shotgun will scare off the intruder/bad guy.

SabbathWolf
April 21, 2012, 06:34 PM
Just the sound of racking the slide on a pump action shotgun will scare off the intruder/bad guy.

Not if it's his....:D

Jim NE
April 21, 2012, 07:07 PM
An observation - people that I've met from the METROPOLITAN east coast (NYC, urban NJ, Philly, Boston, DC, etc.) are usually vocal anti-gun folks. This does NOT include upstate NY, rural NJ, New England or anywhere south of Virginia. Anyone else notice that? I'm in the midwest, so i don't meet tons of people from NYC, but it seems that anywhere guns are illegal, people from those areas think only criminals or deliverance types have firearms.

Of course, this geographic arrogance isn't just limited to gun ownership. I remember being in a NE truckstop along the interstate when some elderly out-of-towners walked in. They looked around wide eyed as if they'd just been transported to another planet. Then one of them loudly declared, in a thick NYC/yiddish accent, "SUCH A RED STATE! SUCH A RED STATE!"

SabbathWolf
April 21, 2012, 07:12 PM
An observation - people that I've met from the METROPOLITAN east coast (NYC, urban NJ, Philly, Boston, DC, etc.) are usually vocal anti-gun folks. This does NOT include upstate NY, rural NJ, New England or anywhere south of Virginia. Anyone else notice that? I'm in the midwest, so i don't meet tons of people from NYC, but it seems that anywhere guns are illegal, people from those areas think only criminals or deliverance types have firearms.

Of course, this geograhpic arrogance isn't just limited to gun ownership. I remember being in a NE truckstop along the interstate when some elderly out-of-towners walked in. They looked around wide eyed as if they'd just been transported to another planet. Then one of them loudly declared, in a thick NYC/yiddish accent, "SUCH A RED STATE! SUCH A RED STATE!"


Yep.
I live in the Midwest too, and everybody I know owns guns.
We take turns going to each others farms and ranches to go target shooting together.
I think I would flat out lose my mind if I was forced to live someplace like NYC.

BehindTheIronCurtain
April 21, 2012, 08:29 PM
I have read some good replies to the post, thanks guys, and keep them coming. I will add another myth to the list,

Teflon on a bullet will make it slip through body armor. I hear this allllllll the time. The movie Ronin with Robert de Niro has a scene where he is shot through his v.est and the French guy asks, " did it slip through because it was covered in Teflon? ". RD knows yes.

Also,that armor piercing bullets were created "specifically to go through police vests" Rachel Mad Cow loves that one and repeats that lie all the time, even though they were invented BY law enforcement FOR law enforcement.

Joe_m107
April 22, 2012, 05:37 AM
"You need a permit to own a machine gun"
I hear this all the time, especially from guns owners.

"Silencers are illegal."

"The AR-15 is an assault rifle, it even says so in its name. AR stands for Assault Rifle!"

j1
April 22, 2012, 08:20 AM
Guns do kill people that is why they are good for home defense. Hammers drive nails too. Each tool for the job at hand.

raubvogel
April 22, 2012, 11:25 AM
The AK-47 is a sinister weapon, more powerful and dangerous than any other.

I am picturing this image of a AK-47 with an evil moustache...

If you put up a "no guns allowed" sign, criminals will not use them.

Hmm, need to put those sings on toilet seats...

"Anyone can easily convert a semi auto to a full auto with just a power drill!"

...a hairclip and a used condom!

The AR15 is an assault rifle.

Didn't you hear about that AR15 that, after robbing a 7-11, proceed to verbally assault an old lady in the parking lot?

No no no, my good man. What you are referring to is the Black Talons. Those things just shred the cops' kevlar vests.
Or...you could be referring to the Nyclads. Those are teflon coated, no bullet proof vest can stop them!

Actually, they slowly eat the poor cop, while torturing him by playing the Colbert Report theme song out of a violin.

Kiln
April 22, 2012, 11:41 PM
An observation - people that I've met from the METROPOLITAN east coast (NYC, urban NJ, Philly, Boston, DC, etc.) are usually vocal anti-gun folks. This does NOT include upstate NY, rural NJ, New England or anywhere south of Virginia. Anyone else notice that? I'm in the midwest, so i don't meet tons of people from NYC, but it seems that anywhere guns are illegal, people from those areas think only criminals or deliverance types have firearms.

Of course, this geographic arrogance isn't just limited to gun ownership. I remember being in a NE truckstop along the interstate when some elderly out-of-towners walked in. They looked around wide eyed as if they'd just been transported to another planet. Then one of them loudly declared, in a thick NYC/yiddish accent, "SUCH A RED STATE! SUCH A RED STATE!"
I've met people from Australia and they honestly think that everyone who owns a gun is a total psychopath. People in those areas have been brainwashed to the point where they actually agree with the government's idea that nobody but them should own a firearm.

RBid
April 23, 2012, 01:34 AM
"Guns promote violence."

This has actually been said to me, verbatim, by 3 different people.

My response, each time:

"You're right. There was no violence before guns. In fact, guns invented violence."


Another favorite:
"Normal people don't need guns."

Awesome, all by itself. Even more amazing when it comes with a steaming side of

"... That's what cops are for."

Naturally.

Police are preemptive, after all.

EvilGenius
April 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
Every other news story that involves a handgun will include the line, "The handgun was not registered to him".

It's permeated into Joe Citizen's beliefs too.

I had an employee, who would never have dreamed of owning a firearm until he began working around a handful of gun nuts, became interested in maybe getting a revolver for himself.

Eventually, he asked about the registration process. I told him that 'There's no such thing as registration, just buy it and own it'. He then asked, "Well what if I WANT to register it, how do I do that?".
Ugh, this got me last week.

Was in the middle of a conversation where a guy I enjoy talking to was trying to give advice to my new partner that's from Alabama.

Told him that in Texas you can open carry a gun as long as no part of it is concealed at all... As long as you have it registered.

He also tries to shoot his SAA with one hand cupped under the grip. Says he hates it because it bruises the palm of that hand.

HGUNHNTR
April 23, 2012, 12:02 PM
One of the biggest I run into: Liberals don't like guns. All Liberals want to ban guns.

Tommygunn
April 23, 2012, 12:09 PM
deleted

ForumSurfer
April 23, 2012, 12:30 PM
All those myths about the business end of a 45 being more intimidating because the hole is bigger.

crracer_712
April 23, 2012, 12:33 PM
Guns are sold on every street corner

Ranger30-06
April 23, 2012, 12:39 PM
An observation - people that I've met from the METROPOLITAN east coast (NYC, urban NJ, Philly, Boston, DC, etc.) are usually vocal anti-gun folks. This does NOT include upstate NY, rural NJ, New England or anywhere south of Virginia. Anyone else notice that? I'm in the midwest, so i don't meet tons of people from NYC, but it seems that anywhere guns are illegal, people from those areas think only criminals or deliverance types have firearms.

Of course, this geographic arrogance isn't just limited to gun ownership. I remember being in a NE truckstop along the interstate when some elderly out-of-towners walked in. They looked around wide eyed as if they'd just been transported to another planet. Then one of them loudly declared, in a thick NYC/yiddish accent, "SUCH A RED STATE! SUCH A RED STATE!"

In the areas you mention, there is another thing you need to understand, and that is that there is an EXTREMELY high concentration of group think that leads to an even more extreme concentration of just 100% stupid people. I'm talking about people who are 30 years old, no job, can barely speak English, and want everything for free.

I have been as far south as NC and out into western PA multiple times and it is truly something natural to this immediate area. If you breed stupid people and refuse to learn, you get idiots that want everyone else to be brought down to their level.

EvilGenius
April 23, 2012, 01:22 PM
In the areas you mention, there is another thing you need to understand, and that is that there is an EXTREMELY high concentration of group think that leads to an even more extreme concentration of just 100% stupid people. I'm talking about people who are 30 years old, no job, can barely speak English, and want everything for free.

I have been as far south as NC and out into western PA multiple times and it is truly something natural to this immediate area. If you breed stupid people and refuse to learn, you get idiots that want everyone else to be brought down to their level.
Ah, "crabs in a pot".

A bunch of people are "forced" to think or behave a certain way. But as soon as one decides not to play that stupid game, they are shamed, threatened or black mailed into compliance.

Drives me bonkers.

CountryUgly
April 23, 2012, 03:24 PM
Semi-automatic military-style rifles "can spray 600 rounds in a minute from the hip!"
Bump Fire....whoooo hoooo.....try it some time. It's inaccurate as all get out but FUN.

CountryUgly
April 23, 2012, 03:25 PM
My Favorite-------GUNS KILL PEOPLE-------

mgmorden
April 23, 2012, 04:34 PM
I love the ones that try to use some playground insult to win the argument. IE, that anyone that owns a gun is either "compensating for something", or that they only own a gun because they're "afraid to fight like a man".

12gaugeTim
April 23, 2012, 04:48 PM
Here's one of my favorites: "Heat seeking bullets" :rolleyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRQqieimwLQ

Don't you know that they sell depleted uranium baby seeking high explosive tank piercing .50BMG on every street corner??

al123
April 23, 2012, 04:52 PM
Why do you need to own more than 10 rounds?

If someone owns a 1,000 rounds of ammo (22lr, 9mm - it doesn't matter) that person can potentially murder 1,000 people. :barf:

Skribs
April 23, 2012, 05:19 PM
I like the myth that shotguns will hit anything within 50 feet as long as you point it in the general direction of the target. I've read reports from police officers saying this, and heard ex-army folks say it as well.

Rapidrob
April 23, 2012, 06:39 PM
1."Carcanos are unsafe" and "..are so poorly made they blow up".
2. "I just got this rifle and I better not fire it until I buy a set of Head Space gauges and check it out, if I fire it and the head space is past a field gauge it will blow up".
3."Old military rifles can't shoot and are really crap".
4. "Oh, I never shoot corrosive ammo out of my guns, they will eat the bores up".
5. "I shot a 5" group at 25 yards, the rifle is a tack driver".
6. "I shoot .308 bullets out of the .314 bore and get MOA accuracy"

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 23, 2012, 11:20 PM
"I just got this rifle and I better not fire it until I buy a set of Head Space gauges and check it out, if I fire it and the head space is past a field gauge it will blow up".

I have this rifle that has too much headspace where I will no longer shoot it until I actually get bothered to send it back in. It won't blow up in a dangerous manner from my understanding but I don't think it's safe to shoot. It's a Savage 111 that was bought new and it's had this problem all this time.

Pronghorn19
April 24, 2012, 03:43 AM
A cabelas gun counter clerk told a woman that 007 carried a bersa so she should buy one too.

bobalou
April 24, 2012, 11:21 AM
Metal storm?

bobalou
April 24, 2012, 11:25 AM
Metal Storm 36 Barrel Prototype-One Million Rounds per Minute Rate of Fire

THowie
April 24, 2012, 12:17 PM
My Favorite-------GUNS KILL PEOPLE-------
That's a classic!

JRH6856
April 24, 2012, 01:16 PM
Metal Storm 36 Barrel Prototype-One Million Rounds per Minute Rate of Fire

You sure that's not just a nozzle squirting molten lead?

P5 Guy
April 24, 2012, 09:12 PM
Stand Your Ground = License To Kill

Flopsweat
April 25, 2012, 02:16 PM
Don't you know that they sell depleted uranium baby seeking high explosive tank piercing .50BMG on every street corner??
Those are different than the ones that shoot down airliners, right? :p

Scurrin
April 25, 2012, 03:45 PM
Depends of if there is a baby on the plane or not.

tyeo098
April 25, 2012, 10:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osgrd1MPb7I

Skip to 2:00 for relevant part. Watch the REST of the video.
Watch the entire thing for entertainment.

I guess. This is what passes for funny for me.

DON'T SUPPORT INVINCIBLE BEARS.

Skribs
April 26, 2012, 11:58 AM
Pulling the hammer back on a Glock is intimidating. Especially if you pull it back twice without decocking it. (Yes, I was watching TV). I wonder, if guns IRL were how they are portrayed in TV, how many times would we be legally obligated to menacingly cock our Glocks before we can fire on an assailant?

buggley
April 26, 2012, 02:05 PM
guns arent safe to have in a house with kids.
i have two kids. 5 and 3. we have guns all over the house, up on walls in lockers in cabinets all over. my kids see them every day the know what they are and where to find them. we have never had a problem with guns in the house. both my wife and i carry. we dont leave a loaded gun on the floor cocked and ready to rock, we dont leave loaded guns on the walls. stupid people are not safe to leave in a house with kids. we keep ammo locked up and we teach the kids that guns arent toys arent scary and that if they want to shoot all they need to do is ask. as far as i can see the kids are perty safe.

Caliper_RWVA
April 26, 2012, 04:15 PM
Pulling the hammer back on a Glock is intimidating.

:scrutiny:

tyeo098
April 26, 2012, 06:58 PM
Pulling the hammer back on a Glock is intimidating.
Wat.
cock our Glocks before we can fire on an assailant?
Double wat.


I see no hammer.
http://www.kingdomarms.com/store/images/_products/LaserLyteRL-1RearSightLaser.jpg

EvilGenius
April 26, 2012, 07:04 PM
I think they were being sarcastic in reference to TV/movie inaccuracies.

Skribs
April 26, 2012, 07:06 PM
You all obviously missed my point. I was watching Lost, and the one guy had a Glock trained on one of the other survivors and was sternly asking questions. When he wasn't getting answers he liked, there was the click of the Glock being cocked (as if it were a DA/SA that was already chambered). A few minutes later, he got angry again, and there was another click of the Glock being cocked. Technically fallacious, hence my sarcastic statement.

I believe someone a while back posted a video on youtube which makes even more fun of this.

ETA: If an evilgenius is the only person who understands me, I'm in trouble.

Sgt_R
April 27, 2012, 08:48 AM
Myth: You can not own "military grade weapons" or "assault weapons."

The sad thing is I heard this years after the AWB was repealed.

My father in law is a retired small town chief of police. A couple years ago I took my AR out to his place to do some shooting (they own some land). As I was getting set up he picked up one of my P-Mags, examined it closely, then asked me (in a conspiratorial tone), "Where did you get that?"

I had to explain to him that the AWB had expired several years previously, and that standard capacity magazines are perfectly legal to own. I'm not quite sure he believed me, but he didn't say anything else about it

R

Kiln
April 27, 2012, 09:03 AM
You all obviously missed my point. I was watching Lost, and the one guy had a Glock trained on one of the other survivors and was sternly asking questions. When he wasn't getting answers he liked, there was the click of the Glock being cocked (as if it were a DA/SA that was already chambered). A few minutes later, he got angry again, and there was another click of the Glock being cocked. Technically fallacious, hence my sarcastic statement.

I believe someone a while back posted a video on youtube which makes even more fun of this.

ETA: If an evilgenius is the only person who understands me, I'm in trouble.
First episode of Walking Dead:

Rick: Make sure you've got a round in the chamber and your safety off.

Other officer: *Racks slide on a visibly empty chamber and flicks slide stop to deactivate safety on Glock*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyRk24aIXdw

Stump Water
April 27, 2012, 05:44 PM
Guns do kill people that is why they are good for home defense. Hammers drive nails too. Each tool for the job at hand.

You must be new. :p

As your third statement implies, guns and hammers are tools. Both can be used to kill people or drive nails, but without a user they are merely objects... capable of doing nothing.

What you have said is equivalent to, a spoon can feed me soup, or my keyboard typed this reply.

SmithManatee
April 27, 2012, 07:08 PM
The myth were if you are have a gun you are more likely to mistake basic objects as weapons.
Then you will "instinctively" shoot any person you mistake as haveing a weapon.
I read something like this somewhere but I don't remember where. I'm sure you could look it up.

SmithManatee
April 27, 2012, 07:11 PM
"Glocks can't be detected by metal detectors because they have polymer frames"

FLA2760
April 27, 2012, 10:02 PM
Guns are bad the police will protect you.

lionking
April 28, 2012, 01:07 PM
Said to me by a salesman at a gunshow in Tampa Fl from shootstraight gunshop around late 2008 or early 2009 don't remember exactly that had photos of Obama sitting on top of there AR-15's on the tables..........

quote: "get your AR-15 now because Obama is going ban them and they will keep getting more expensive from now on so get yours now before its too late"

Sale price for the Bushmaster he was pitching, around $1500.

I didn't fall for it, many did though.

Fear mongering from "our side" that perpetuates myths that hurt our shooting sport is just as devious as the anti-gun people.

And now, lol.......the election is months away, no hint of any legislation even making it to law no matter who wins the election and the fear mongers are already trying to stir a buying panic.

This country has turned into a bunch of greedy speculators whether it is gas, wall street, real estate or 2nd amendment "supporters".

lobo9er
April 28, 2012, 01:09 PM
a 357 will break your wrist.

Titusdrake
April 28, 2012, 05:54 PM
"If we get rid of all the guns then there will be world peace"

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Kiln
April 29, 2012, 04:46 AM
If we get rid of all guns knife and sword sales will go through the roof.

Sniper66
April 29, 2012, 10:19 AM
Guns don't kill people, husbands who come home early do.

brickeyee
April 29, 2012, 02:23 PM
"If we get rid of all the guns then there will be world peace"

Or we could give everyone a blender and have whirled peas.

Skribs
April 30, 2012, 06:43 PM
I'm not sure if this qualifies as a myth about guns to scare people, but a lot of people don't seem to understand how different calibers work. When I say ".50 caliber pistol" most people seem to think that I mean the .50 BMG in a pistol, because that is the ".50 cal." I have to then explain that there are .50 AE, .50 GI, and .500 S&W, and that while they all use a .50 bullet they are all different.

bigfatdave
April 30, 2012, 10:24 PM
Why is that a surprise, Skribs?
Gun enthusiasts still need to be told that .22wmr is not just a longer .22lr
Police reports still mis-spell simple company names like "Kel Tec" (when the gun has it printed on the side to be read by the gomer writing the report)
How many people in the shooting community don't know the difference between 9x18 makarov and 9x19 luger (or that luger/nato/parabellum are the same thing)

AZ
May 1, 2012, 12:28 AM
He does want to. His books and speeches demonstrate this.

He just doesn't have the political ability to make it happen right now.
Would you like to provide references. I am going to have to respectively call you on that one. It is a myth, and a widely accepted one as well.

Kiln
May 1, 2012, 12:48 AM
How many people in the shooting community don't know the difference between 9x18 makarov and 9x19 luger (or that luger/nato/parabellum are the same thing)
Very true. I just had this one happen to me the other day.

A guy at work was showing me some pictures of his Hungarian PA63 and was telling me that he was just going to get a Ruger P95 9mm so that he wouldn't need to buy more ammo because he'd bought a bunch of 9mm Mak ammo.

It took me several minutes to explain to him that 9x18 and 9x19 were not interchangeable.

MedWheeler
May 1, 2012, 09:38 AM
Hollow-point bullets are meant for evil killing only, and there is no legitimate need or use for them in defensive weapons.

Skribs
May 1, 2012, 12:01 PM
Eh, I did buy hollow points because of the (internet) research I've done on wound mechanics. However, self defense doesn't constitute an "evil" killing in my book.

Inebriated
May 2, 2012, 01:40 PM
From outside the shooting community?
That guns just "go off", Glocks don't have metal in them, and that guns are specifically for going, getting in fights, and winning.

From inside the shooting community?
That .357 is a hard recoil, .22 is useless, and you have to have a Class III license to own an NFA firearm.

RBid
May 2, 2012, 03:32 PM
Recently heard on TV:

"That's full of hollow points. They go in, and ricochet around, until there's nothing left, but paste."

Skribs
May 2, 2012, 03:42 PM
The thing is, though, is half of these myths I think are started by ammo manufacturers. Specifically ones relating to how deadly hollopoint/frangible/ricocheting/etc can be.

BobTheTomato
May 2, 2012, 06:51 PM
I just remember my gym teacher telling us in health class that parents often accidently shoot their childern in the night because they thought they were robbers. Guns are evil!

buggley
May 2, 2012, 09:32 PM
my dad shot my brother because of that lol

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 2, 2012, 09:40 PM
I just remember my gym teacher telling us in health class that parents often accidently shoot their childern in the night because they thought they were robbers. Guns are evil!

Shows that the homeowners were stupid for not having some sort of light handy.

Kiln
May 3, 2012, 04:44 AM
I just remember my gym teacher telling us in health class that parents often accidently shoot their childern in the night because they thought they were robbers. Guns are evil!
It does surprisingly happen fairly frequently. Somebody comes home early and a triggerhappy moron fires a weapon off at them without bothering to verify if it is actually an intruder or not.

They had a case of this in the paper less than a year ago where the guy's wife came home unexpectedly one night and he shot her, killing her in their house.

brickeyee
May 3, 2012, 10:43 AM
Somebody comes home early and a triggerhappy moron fires a weapon off at them without bothering to verify if it is actually an intruder or not.

Clorox for the gene pool.

jjjjeremy
May 3, 2012, 11:02 AM
"Guns are dangerous."

"Guns kill people."

guns go off when you don't want them to.

low capacity magazines are safer than high capacity magazines

forward pistol grips make a gun dangerous

.22s are safe

SlowFuse
May 3, 2012, 11:02 AM
The black talon rounds in 45 ACP can go through 6 or 7 people and keep going!

Toaster
May 3, 2012, 11:14 AM
.50 BMG is an incendiary device

A .50 BMG round fired from a sniper rifle will kill a person if the round passes within 12 inches of their head because of the concssion it creates

EvilGenius
May 3, 2012, 11:28 AM
Clorox for the gene pool.
I think you got it the wrong way round...

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 3, 2012, 11:41 AM
"Hollow points are armor piercing and cop killers"

timhernandez
May 3, 2012, 11:44 AM
Worst myths ever....

"There is such a thing as too many guns!"

"He owns guns, he is crazy"

"The Government is here to protect you"

Skribs
May 3, 2012, 11:46 AM
Brickeye, the problem in your Clorox statement is that it is not the moron who is removed from the gene pool.

gatorjames85
May 3, 2012, 11:50 AM
Brickeye, the problem in your Clorox statement is that it is not the moron who is removed from the gene pool.

When he goes to prison, he will be.

My personal favorite: .223/5.56 is just a glorified .22 lr.

Edit: I forgot this was myths that scare the general public, the above is just a regular myth.

hammerklavier
May 3, 2012, 11:59 AM
"Guns are dangerous."

Huh?

ldsgeek
May 3, 2012, 01:04 PM
Brickeye said "Clorox for the gene pool."

Except it's not the idiot that gets shot, it's another family member.

Spats McGee
May 3, 2012, 03:31 PM
That there exists a "gun show loophole" by which violent felons and the criminally insane can buy any firearm their evil hearts desire (including fully automatic weapons with "assault clips") without any background checks.

brickeyee
May 3, 2012, 03:59 PM
Except it's not the idiot that gets shot, it's another family member.

Their offspring has been removed from the gene pool.

Hopefully they are old enough they cannot replace them.

Big Bad Bob
May 3, 2012, 04:12 PM
oh where to begin......

" the sonic wave produced off a .50BMG is so powerful it can tear off a limb just passing by you, without striking you"

"The M2HB .50BMG is only allowed by the Geneva convention to shoot vehicles and equipment, not people, so aim for the canteen or helmet" (I have heard this one WAY to much)

"hollow pointed anything are the best for killing zombies"

"A 12 gauge shotgun will dismember you"

so many, so many

"Glocks can go through airport screeners"

Elm Creek Smith
May 3, 2012, 04:51 PM
If you shoot a "magnum" handgun at a car, van, or pickup truck, the vehicle will explode and fly into the air, invariably landing on it's roof. Variations on this theme include shotgun blasts throwing full-grown men 20 feet through the air and 8 inch holes in NYC apartment doors from a shotgun fired while in contact with the door.

ECS

Skribs
May 3, 2012, 05:09 PM
"A 12 gauge shotgun will dismember you"

I haven't seen any autopsies first-hand, but based on the patterns I see out of mine, I see it as entirely possible that it could take an arm off.

"hollow pointed anything are the best for killing zombies"

What would you recomend for killing zombies?

"The M2HB .50BMG is only allowed by the Geneva convention to shoot vehicles and equipment, not people, so aim for the canteen or helmet"

Most of the people I've heard this from are Army folk. Is this untrue?

Big Bad Bob
May 3, 2012, 05:15 PM
I dont reccomend anything for killing zombies they are not real but its stuff you hear.

And on the .50 geneva conventions myth, i hear this from old Army guys all the time.

bigfatdave
May 3, 2012, 05:18 PM
"Glocks can go through airport screeners" well - that's more about the screeners than the particular item being screened (seriously, read the GAO reports)

===

I'll just add the broad category of:
"the Geneva convention says _________" ... almost invariably whatever fills in that blank is blatantly wrong and stupid

denton
May 3, 2012, 10:32 PM
Glocks apparently can sail through airport screening.

A friend of mine accidentally left one in the side compartment of his carry on bag, and it did sail through.

Stats I have seen indicate that at one time, the probability of a gun being caught at screening was only about 60%.

gatorjames85
May 4, 2012, 10:14 AM
What would you recomend for killing zombies?

Hornady Z-Max, duh!:D

chas3stix
May 4, 2012, 02:51 PM
How about those "terrible exploding bullets" that are often portrayed on TV. Funny how people keep re-electing the likes of Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer. Those that do deserve them! Know when a politician is lying? Their lips are moving.

Skribs
May 4, 2012, 03:14 PM
Eh, shooters call them "exploding hollowpoints" as well. I think they read the same way that my friend does. We play a lot of RPGs, and he tends to read the first syllable and guess the rest of the word. Sometimes it's close, sometimes it's way off. Explode and Expand start with "exp" so that's probably all they read.

Like I said, I think these myths of how devastating some rounds can be are started by gun enthusiasts. "Oh yeah, I got the .40 caliber exploding hollowpoint because it will enter the body, explode on contact with the bone, and turn a pie-pan size part of your chest into jelly."

Then the media reports that this can actually happen.

SLAKLINE
May 4, 2012, 03:46 PM
"the gun accidentally went off"

"assault rifle"

"sniper rifle"

Skribs
May 4, 2012, 03:49 PM
"Assault Weapon" may not be a technical term, but it is a legal term.

I do agree on "sniper rifle". I was showing my coworker (who is an anti) the POF rifles online, and she saw "hunting/sniper" in the description and immediately started bashing it as "anyone can get a sniper rifle!" The "tactical" model, she didn't have any complaints about.

The ONLY difference between the two? The tactical model has a full-length quad rail, the hunting/sniper model has partial-length quad rail. But the sniper model was apparently a lot more dangerous in her eyes.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 4, 2012, 09:29 PM
Glocks apparently can sail through airport screening.

A friend of mine accidentally left one in the side compartment of his carry on bag, and it did sail through.

Stats I have seen indicate that at one time, the probability of a gun being caught at screening was only about 60%.

That's not the gun going through undetected, that's the idiot at the screen not paying attention.

coloradokevin
May 6, 2012, 05:39 AM
Here's a myth I got a laugh out of:

"If you have more than 1,500 rounds of ammo at your house you need to apply to the government for an arsenal permit"



"A 12 gauge shotgun will dismember you"
I haven't seen any autopsies first-hand, but based on the patterns I see out of mine, I see it as entirely possible that it could take an arm off.

Pardon the gory details on this one, please, but it is the closest I've come to a "Mythbusters" style analysis to this situation:

In the way that most people see this happening, I don't think it is fair to state that shotguns will (generally) dismember a person. However, I have seen an arm detach from a body once as the result of sustaining multiple shotgun loads to a shoulder in a gang shooting.

The victim(s) of this event were rival gang members who were seated in a vehicle when the suspects rolled up on them and opened up with a couple of rifles and a shotgun. So, the wounds on the victim in question were very close range buckshot, with multiple hits in the left shoulder. When the medics attempted to remove the person from the vehicle to check for signs of life, the arm pretty much detached at the shoulder, though it didn't entirely fall off.

barnetmill
May 7, 2012, 02:59 PM
gatorjames: Quote:
Brickeye, the problem in your Clorox statement is that it is not the moron who is removed from the gene pool.

In this case he shot his wife. 1-She was dumb enough to marry this guy. 2-He removed his mate through which he was likly to pass on his genes.
Probably the wife had bad genes and in anycase her death did remove a receptacle for the moron's genes. So yes it is clorox for the gene pool.

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